How Common is Educational Neglect Among Homeschoolers?

[Crimson Wife]

 

I define educational neglect as not educating a child to their potential.  I understand that as I've used them here, the words "educating" and "potential" are slippery, but I'm going to go with them anyway.  Using this definition, I would say that b&m schools are guilty of educational neglect just as often as homeschoolers are.  This doesn't make it ok.

 

At a certain point, the child has to WANT to live up to his/her potential. I'm dealing with this now.

 

I've got a teen who has completed Algebra 2 and college-level statistics and is adamantly refusing to do any higher math. She has the brains to do calculus or beyond but lacks the motivation. She can graduate with a bachelor's in a non-STEM major from the UC or Cal State system with just the math she's completed and she's fine with that. I'm not going to make it a "hill to die on" because frankly, I haven't used anything beyond very basic algebra and statistics in my adult life. I took through multi-variable calculus but at this point couldn't solve a derivative or integral if my life depended on it.

 

My educational goal for her is to complete her bachelor's degree and if she can do that with only Algebra 2 and statistics, I don't think that makes me guilty of "educational neglect" just because she could theoretically pass calculus if she were interested and willing to do the work required.

[laundrycrisis]

I'm curious though based on other threads on this same topic.  Does your state in general have good education?  ( I know the state rankings of public education can vary widely).  Is there a religious sect component to this trend in your area?  Is there an otherwise philosophical component (like Sandra Dodd type radical unschooling)?  Is there a general community culture of education? 

 

The public school systems in the state seem to vary widely.  There are some really good districts and some really poor ones.  There is some religious component in my experiences with homeschoolers, but when that is a factor, it appears to me to make things better in some ways and worse in others.  I don't feel there is a culture of high educational achievement in general among most of the homeschoolers here in my immediate area.  Yes, I have experienced a strong philosophical influence from the start, and in many cases it has run to radical unschooling.  I'm happy to have found a little bubble where there is support for homeschooling parents and kids working hard at it - not Tiger Mom hard, just sincere focused effort and making school work a priority.  There seems to be a prevalent attitude here that if it seems hard, or it's hard work, or not 100% fun and interesting all the time, you are doing it wrong, and it's probably best to just go out and enjoy the park or a field trip.  

[...................]

I never said 90% of my homeschool friends.   I have had contact with a lot of homeschoolers. 

 

Also I would never assume a parent is neglectful based on their child's spelling, or any other level of work the child is doing.  I think I was clear about that. 

 

So, what is your criteria then?  If They aren't your friends, you aren't inside their homes.  You don't have first-hand experience or knowledge that is intimate. 

 

So what would be the criteria by which they are judged?

 

EDITED to add: this makes more sense. You happen to belong to a group of Radical Unschoolers...I can see how you feel they are neglectful.

 

BUT I would still be very careful to judge without intimate first hand knowledge. Sometimes Radical Unschooled kids match more of what I said earlier...they have a longer slog if they want to go to college (due to taking remedial courses), and they will start out earning less, and take longer to get there and may have weird gaps in their "general knowledge" but most of them are able to function as adults and DO go to college if they want, they just have to spend a year getting through remedial math and Science.  And even that year is not totally wasted because by and large Radical Unschoolers read well and will still be able to take English and humanities courses.  It's a little sad.  I think they would be better served by getting that easy stuff out of the way while they're young! 

 

BUT it's not neglect..usually..

Edited February 24, 2018 by Calming Tea

[laundrycrisis]

The OP was not asking about small communities, but in general.  

 

Whatever - I can only extrapolate from my own experiences, whether that's sound or not.  I don't have any experiences with the homeschooling community in other places to go on. And like I said,  I've become more skeptical of homeschooling over the years.  

[cintinative]

I think it’s going to get worse. I had an online exchange on a local board. The woman wanted to homeschool and asked how to get started. I suggested hitting the library, reading some books, then once she’d formed a philosophy/style it would be easier to choose curriculum and ask questions. Her response? “That sounds exhausting. Can’t I use your philosophy?†😧 I told her it wasn’t nearly as exhausting as homeschooling. Oh the people who jumped in to assure her that it really was easy. No it’s not! It is for a few years, but if you’re not prepared to increase the workload and think your 8th grader can get by on two hours of school a day you are delusional. You’d have to live in a pretty lackluster school district to keep up with local standards this way.

 

Don’t get me started on the people who never really prioritize school and only really get around to it more than once or twice a week. Or the people who are “teaching their kids to self educate†and park an 8-year-old in front of a computer to fend for himself. Little kids deserve a teacher. Making the decision to do this then putting ALL of the work and responsibility on an elementary-aged child is ridiculous. I know there are outliers where the child truly learns best this way, but in general it’s lazy, inneffectual, and the kid would learn more in school.

 

I really don’t see much outright neglect, just a lot of busy, inconsistent moms whose kids would successfully go further in most subjects if they attended local schools. Their estimates for how much time is wasted in school seem artificially high to justify a 90 minute school day for their 10th grader. I don’t doubt there are districts where their kid would be ahead with this pace, but this isn’t one of of them.

 

 

 

Not really addressing the OP, but following this discussion of local online public schoolers . . .

 

Sorry for the long quote, but this is my concern as well. There is an online FB group for our state and it has been flooded with new homeschoolers since one of the state's online public school programs shut down.  The thought process for some of them seems to be that they can just continue a totally online education for their, say eight year old, while they work full time.  As KungFuPanda noted, of course there are kids who can be independent at that age, however, I think affirming that expectation as realistic is a mistake, and yet I am seeing a lot of these folks encouraged in that way--"Sure! Just do Easy Peasy and you can continue to work full time!"  Perhaps it is because of a difference in how I homeschool versus them, but most days I think of homeschooling as a full time job and I can't imagine expecting even my 12 year old to work totally independently without me checking in through the day.  I also see people posting things like "I am really concerned because my 10 year old is not reading" and instantly the response is--"He/she is fine! Everyone blooms at a different time!"  While that is certainly true, wouldn't better advice be to say "listen to your mommy gut--if something seems wrong, get your child evaluated?"  There was a mom who posted that her child had a reading delay and spelling issues and she was concerned about his hearing--I said, if you are concerned, certainly get it checked!  I was sort of shocked at how many said "oh, they figure it out eventually!" I mean, I want to be encouraging but I also don't want to dismiss concerns as illegitimate when they might actually be valid.  

 

The other thing that troubles me is people who post on sales sites: "I need a curriculum for my 5th grader."  Yes, that's nice, which one?  Or do they seriously just salad bar it together from the responses? That scares me a little. 

[...................]

Whatever - I can only extrapolate from my own experiences, whether that's sound or not.  I don't have any experiences with the homeschooling community in other places to go on. And like I said,  I've become more skeptical of homeschooling over the years.  

While I generally haven't agreed with laundryCrisis' posts on this topic, all of us are probably extrapolating from what we've seen, locally.  

 

It's not fair to invalidate her points because of that!  I thought that's all we had to go on.

[laundrycrisis]

So, what is your criteria then?  If They aren't your friends, you aren't inside their homes.  You don't have first-hand experience or knowledge that is intimate. 

 

So what would be the criteria by which they are judged?

 

My ballpark is based on conversations in which people gave me their opinions and philosophies.  These were generally unsolicited/volunteered and often explained to great lengths.  I sat and listened.  I have also found that many homeschoolers are bursting at the seams to tell someone about their philosophy/approach, whether they were asked or not. 

[laundrycrisis]

So, what is your criteria then?  If They aren't your friends, you aren't inside their homes.  You don't have first-hand experience or knowledge that is intimate. 

 

So what would be the criteria by which they are judged?

 

EDITED to add: this makes more sense. You happen to belong to a group of Radical Unschoolers...I can see how you feel they are neglectful.

 

BUT I would still be very careful to judge without intimate first hand knowledge. Sometimes Radical Unschooled kids match more of what I said earlier...they have a longer slog if they want to go to college (due to taking remedial courses), and they will start out earning less, and take longer to get there and may have weird gaps in their "general knowledge" but most of them are able to function as adults and DO go to college if they want, they just have to spend a year getting through remedial math and Science.  And even that year is not totally wasted because by and large Radical Unschoolers read well and will still be able to take English and humanities courses.  It's a little sad.  I think they would be better served by getting that easy stuff out of the way while they're young! 

 

BUT it's not neglect..usually..

 

I was never in an RU group, except an online one, very briefly.   I met many people at general gatherings, for years, until I gave up and stopped going. 

[...................]

LOL....That's true but it's funny to me now.  When people ask me about homeschooling I want to run the other way! ! I don't want their front-loaded questions, their judgement, their opinions, and I really hate that my kids, praise God are doing well and I resort to showing how great my kids are doing, in defense of our choice.  What if they were struggling and I had done mostly everything the same?  Or if they were adopted and would struggle no matter what I did?  Or whatever....

 

i HATE talking to people about homeschooling now.  When I was a newbie? Oh yea....

 

Now? Forget it.  I would rather pretend I didn't hear them and ask about the weather.

[laundrycrisis]

While I generally haven't agreed with laundryCrisis' posts on this topic, all of us are probably extrapolating from what we've seen, locally.  

 

It's not fair to invalidate her points because of that!  I thought that's all we had to go on.

 

 

Thanks :)

 

I'm not sure I've made any points - just shared my ballpark from my POV and my own experiences listening to other local homeschoolers.  And I've tried to explain what I consider neglect of education.  

 

Some here seem upset/defensive about my number because it's not a very optimistic view of homeschooling.  I don't know why.  I wouldn't be upset by someone else's ballpark estimate.  

 

Also, if we are including people we only have online contact with, I would guess that most of the people here at WTM would not be likely to be in the 90% !  WTM has been my island of support for taking homeschooling seriously.  This forum has been a huge help, inspiration and sometimes a lifeline to me.  I've been challenged and uncomfortable with some things here over the years.  They stuck in my head and kicked me in the pants.  I even have a post by Hillfarm pinned to my fridge.   I'm grateful for the posts over the years that have made me question what I'm doing, and how, and why. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that there have always been some people who get into homeschooling with unrealistic expectations. And most go back to the public schools fairly soon. At least I hope that they do. When those people then badmouth homeschooling I want to smack them (metaphorically) because they are making an assessment based on what was doomed to fail in the first place. And what has nothing to do with homeschooling being good or bad itself.

 

The proliferation of online public schools and the tendency of people calling that homeschooling concerns me. No, I am not a snob. But to be successful you have to work within the confines of the online public school system. I think that the school itself has some culpability there to thoroughly explain parental involvement but I recognize that some just won’t listen.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mellifera33]

I have also found that many homeschoolers are bursting at the seams to tell someone about their philosophy/approach, whether they were asked or not. 

 

The homeschoolers I've met who are this way tend to follow a particular approach/philosophy, and I'd be willing to believe that this approach/philosophy fails 90% of its adherents. 

[laundrycrisis]

LOL....That's true but it's funny to me now.  When people ask me about homeschooling I want to run the other way! ! I don't want their front-loaded questions, their judgement, their opinions, and I really hate that my kids, praise God are doing well and I resort to showing how great my kids are doing, in defense of our choice.  What if they were struggling and I had done mostly everything the same?  Or if they were adopted and would struggle no matter what I did?  Or whatever....

 

i HATE talking to people about homeschooling now.  When I was a newbie? Oh yea....

 

Now? Forget it.  I would rather pretend I didn't hear them and ask about the weather.

 

I have been avoiding conversations about homeschooling for years.  When I end up in one anyway, I mostly listen and let the water flow on by. My own combination of challenges, necessities and discouragement made them upsetting.  I row my own boat and just wave.   

[EKS]

At a certain point, the child has to WANT to live up to his/her potential. I'm dealing with this now.

 

Tell me about it--we have the same thing here.

[8filltheheart]

Of course, I could respond to someone wanting to know what we do that I don't believe in preschool academics (I don't), that I want my young kids to spend most of their time playing (I do), that I think an hr per day of academics/grade level is adequate (I do), and someone could extrapolate that to mean I don't take academics seriously which is completely false.  Extrapolating a conversation to declaring educational neglect is a weak form of assessment.  

 

In reality, there is no real basis for any extrapolation across "homeschoolers."  Homeschoolers that seek co-ops. CC, don't seek co-ops, use boxed curriculum, etc all do so for a variety of reasons. The dominant presence in any single community is still not representative of "homeschoolers" as a whole since there are as many different homeschool outcomes as homeschooled students (not even families bc within families outcomes are different.)

 

However, some states do define educational thresholds for homeschooling and the bar can be very low.  VA, for example, requires

 

 

If your student takes a standardized achievement test, he must have a composite score in or above the fourth stanine or 23rd percentile. A composite score is made up only of the mathematics and language arts components of the test. 

So, it does help to keep in mind that personal standards and opinions are not equivalent to what a state legally requires. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[laundrycrisis]

I think it’s going to get worse. I had an online exchange on a local board. The woman wanted to homeschool and asked how to get started. I suggested hitting the library, reading some books, then once she’d formed a philosophy/style it would be easier to choose curriculum and ask questions. Her response? “That sounds exhausting. Can’t I use your philosophy?†😧 I told her it wasn’t nearly as exhausting as homeschooling. Oh the people who jumped in to assure her that it really was easy. No it’s not! It is for a few years, but if you’re not prepared to increase the workload and think your 8th grader can get by on two hours of school a day you are delusional. You’d have to live in a pretty lackluster school district to keep up with local standards this way.

 

Don’t get me started on the people who never really prioritize school and only really get around to it more than once or twice a week. Or the people who are “teaching their kids to self educate†and park an 8-year-old in front of a computer to fend for himself. Little kids deserve a teacher. Making the decision to do this then putting ALL of the work and responsibility on an elementary-aged child is ridiculous. I know there are outliers where the child truly learns best this way, but in general it’s lazy, inneffectual, and the kid would learn more in school.

 

I really don’t see much outright neglect, just a lot of busy, inconsistent moms whose kids would successfully go further in most subjects if they attended local schools. Their estimates for how much time is wasted in school seem artificially high to justify a 90 minute school day for their 10th grader. I don’t doubt there are districts where their kid would be ahead with this pace, but this isn’t one of of them.

 

ETA: sorry for the long rant. I’m on a long, boring car trip.

 

I bolded those. 

 

I also think it's likely to get worse unless something comes along and changes that trajectory.  

[Crimson Wife]

Wow, if falling below the 23rd percentile is considered "educatiohal neglect" then there is absolutely no way that my special needs child could ever NOT be "neglected". I would be absolutely THRILLED to see any scores within the "normal" range, which is the 16th percentile. She's got a genetic mutation causing a rare neurological syndrome and while she is making progress along her own developmental trajectory even the best education theoretically possible is not going to get her to that 23rd percentile.

[laundrycrisis]

Wow, if falling below the 23rd percentile is considered "educatiohal neglect" then there is absolutely no way that my special needs child could ever NOT be "neglected". I would be absolutely THRILLED to see any scores within the "normal" range, which is the 16th percentile. She's got a genetic mutation causing a rare neurological syndrome and while she is making progress along her own developmental trajectory even the best education theoretically possible is not going to get her to that 23rd percentile.

 

This is exactly why I've never agreed that specific scores on anything should be a criteria for judging how well a homeschool is functioning.  Progress over time would be more fair.  I'm afraid of homeschool regulation because I'm afraid it would be based on something that will make parents of kids with LD issues look neglectful.  

[8filltheheart]

Wow, if falling below the 23rd percentile is considered "educatiohal neglect" then there is absolutely no way that my special needs child could ever NOT be "neglected". I would be absolutely THRILLED to see any scores within the "normal" range, which is the 16th percentile. She's got a genetic mutation causing a rare neurological syndrome and while she is making progress along her own developmental trajectory even the best education theoretically possible is not going to get her to that 23rd percentile.

The state doesn't state that below the 23rd% is neglect. There is follow up to understand why and my understanding is that they want to make sure appropriate educational progress is being made. Above the 23rd%, though, there is no required contact.

[Matryoshka]

Jean in Newcastle ——— just curious to you. For the people who pull their kids to avoid bad grades and plan to re-enroll them the next year with homeschool grades instead of those grades...... what are they to be called? They have withdrawn their students to homeschool. They have said they are homeschooling.

 

While I agree it’s not real homeschooling, what word is better to use?

If they enroll them in the PUBLIC virtual charter, they are still by definition PUBLIC school students, covered by regular public school regulations, *not* homeschool regulations of any kind. By any definition, regulating homeschoolers more would do exactly Zero to affect the behavior of people enrolled in a public school program, be it virtual or B&M.

[scoutingmom]

 

 

A parent whose child is being pulled out of school for missing to many days and then calls it homeschool has some serious issues going on. There is a general neglect or even abuse in a situation like that.

Well, wait one minute. Hypothetically, what if the student was truant for a long time because of an issue in the school, like bullying? And the parent finally decides to remove them them to homeschool. The child and family could homeschool quite successfully.

 

Yet you have decided from the bit of info you have (this family removed the child from school to "homeschool" because the child was truant, can you believe it?) that the parents are neglectful and likely abusive? Excuse me?!?

 

I point this out because this would have been the situation for my family with my step-daughter except I was not in a position to homeschool her. Truant because of bullying to the point that we knew the truancy officer by first name. She wanted us to homeschool her, but we couldn't do it then. btw.... the public school system gave up on her. But I guess we avoided the judgement.

[Ausmumof3]

I have never ever met my potential. And frankly I wouldn’t want to. Oh the stress of it all. I don’t see having to meet a Tiger Mom’s definition of education to be a healthy thing. By all means, “do you and your family “ but don’t judge the rest of us. I find this conversation a bit ironic when put next to the conclusions SWB has been making in Rethinking School.

 

I do understand that there is true educational neglect out there. Often for a season before parents realize that they aren’t cut out to be home educators. But long term educational neglect is often just a part of more serious dysfunction. I think that most non dysfunctional parents love their kids and want them to be successful in life.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know. It always seems like a dumb phrase to me. Some kids have really high ability in multiple areas. But they can't reach full potential in all of them. They have to pick. If you are gifted at music, math, science and literature chances are you aren't going to be able to achieve full potential in all of them. You'll focus on optimising success in one. Many kids can achieve more highly in an academic area but it will involve becoming unbalanced in another area - sacrificing health or happiness.

[goldenecho]

Actually, I'm sure she DOES have dyslexia.  I was telling the mom that years ago (along with where to get low-cost testing, and how she should really address this asap, blah, blah, blah).  She's currently getting her child tutoring services through the public school system, but it took literally YEARS for her to get to that place where she was willing to do it.  It did not help to have homeschooling/unschooling mamas telling her "She'll read when she's ready."  Um, the child is 10 and hasn't mastered the alphabet.  Y'all need to just be quiet.  Making this mom feel better at the moment is not going to help her child over the long-term.    If I sound frustrated, it's because I am.  We need to be helping each other, not enabling denial.

 

I do get what you're saying though.  I have a kid with learning disabilities and I can only imagine what people who don't know us must think of her poor neglected education.

 

Your friend and I sound similar.  I don't know if I've been educationally neglectful, but if you're looking for why it can take that long...here's my example.

 

Age 5 (Public School) - child cried his way through public kindergarten and made no progress.   I knew I could do better than that (and believe I have). .

 

Age 6 of Homeschooling - repeated KG at home.   Soon gave up on trying to "catch him up" as I was dealing with 20 minutes of crying just to get him to try sounding out words.   Made "getting over fear of learning" a priority--cause it was clear that had to be dealt with before we could make any progress.  We did about an hour a day, split up in 15 minute bits.   After that, save for rare days of clarity, pushing longer had diminishing results (more stuggle and frustration for smaller amounts of actual retention the longer we'd go).  Didn't do co-op because he was scared of anything school-like.

 

Age 7 - Joined co-op.   Changed curriculum and saw reading improve some, but slowly.  It was only this year that we started  "getting over the fear of learning."  Yes, it took that long.  And yes, up to that point, people had been telling me that "kids just learn at different rates...don't worry about it."   And also, I had been looking up things like research on Waldorf schools and learning that kids in those school didn't even start lessons on reading until age 7, and later catch up, so I was feeling ok.

 

Age 8 - By mid year, I'm really starting to wonder if there's something more going on with my child....because I don't think it's just fear of learning (which he's gotten past mostly) that's holding him back anymore.    I start to talk to people in my co-op and people in forums.   What resonates is when one mom says it's rare for one child to do that poorly when other kids in the household didn't (and both of my other kids learned to read BEFORE they started school, just with us practicing with them at home...even though I didn't think of that as homeschooling then).  But I also learn that our local schools won't test for dyslexia (just reading level...and I frickin know his reading level), and that the test costs $800.   Just as I start looking into where to get that done, my husband looses his job.   When he gets a new one it's in another state and we spend the whole summer, and what money we have left, moving.

 

Age 9 Years Old -  On someone's suggestion, we check his eyesight.  Turns out he needs reading glasses.   I hold off on dyslexia testing until we have time to see how much that helps.   A couple months later I still feel like he needs it.  I'm in a state with "homeschool" charters now and start looking into if I could get testing and help through one of those.    I can...but it's too late to start at any in my area.   Meanwhile I start researching how to teach reading to dyslexic children and start using some methods I find (which does help my child make progress....but it is STILL SLOW).   I found out I can have him tested at a local school, and am wondering whether it is worth it to do that now, this late in the year, when the charter will test him next year if I get in.

 

Would my child have been diagnosed earlier if he had been in school?   Big fat MAYBE.  Would he have been better off?   I really doubt it, because he loves learning now, even if he's behind...and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case if we had kept him in.   Have I been neglectful?  I ask myself that all the time.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by goldenecho

[eternalsummer]

I am going to cautiously agree with this.

 

I define educational neglect as not educating a child to their potential.  I understand that as I've used them here, the words "educating" and "potential" are slippery, but I'm going to go with them anyway.  Using this definition, I would say that b&m schools are guilty of educational neglect just as often as homeschoolers are.  This doesn't make it ok. 

 

There are also degrees of educational neglect, so not ensuring that a kid learns to read or do basic math is more severe than undereducating that same kid to, say, the 30th percentile in reading and math when they are capable of the 90th.  I realize this issue goes well beyond percentiles--I'm just using them as a shorthand for levels of educational attainment.

 

In the case of homeschoolers, the myth that homeschooling is always better than public school contributes to the problem.  And too many social activities definitely definitely makes things worse.  I am always amazed when I hear about families who don't have time for academics beyond a math workbook a few times a week, but seem to flit from one activity to the next every single day.

 

I also think that social neglect is a real concern.  I've been guilty of it myself (unintentionally), which is why my son is attending the public high school part time--where, ironically, he is experiencing educational neglect.  

 

 

To be honest I think this is complete BS.

 

If I were to educate my kids to their academic potential, they'd be concert pianists and get through Differential Equations and Latin, Greek, and French 5, with 10-15 APs each by graduation.  Probably a couple of them would do more than that.

 

But what I'd sacrifice for educational potential, they would suffer in social development, personal development, freedom to just be a kid, learning how to work in and manage home life, etc.

 

 

I got an IB Diploma, was a NM scholar, graduated in the top 1% of my large (very good) public high school, etc.  It was definitely definitely not as much as I could have done, academically.  I spent the majority of my time in my junior and senior year hanging out with my boyfriend or going to band practice. 

 

Guess what?  I'm married to the boyfriend and we have 6 (soon 7) kids.  I don't think that developing our relationship in my teens, in lieu of learning another foreign language in my free time or something, was a mistake.  My academic potential, and my academic life, have come second to my social life and my home life, and that has made me happy and our family successful.

[eternalsummer]

I think it’s going to get worse. I had an online exchange on a local board. The woman wanted to homeschool and asked how to get started. I suggested hitting the library, reading some books, then once she’d formed a philosophy/style it would be easier to choose curriculum and ask questions. Her response? “That sounds exhausting. Can’t I use your philosophy?†😧 I told her it wasn’t nearly as exhausting as homeschooling. Oh the people who jumped in to assure her that it really was easy. No it’s not! It is for a few years, but if you’re not prepared to increase the workload and think your 8th grader can get by on two hours of school a day you are delusional. You’d have to live in a pretty lackluster school district to keep up with local standards this way.

 

Don’t get me started on the people who never really prioritize school and only really get around to it more than once or twice a week. Or the people who are “teaching their kids to self educate†and park an 8-year-old in front of a computer to fend for himself. Little kids deserve a teacher. Making the decision to do this then putting ALL of the work and responsibility on an elementary-aged child is ridiculous. I know there are outliers where the child truly learns best this way, but in general it’s lazy, inneffectual, and the kid would learn more in school.

 

I really don’t see much outright neglect, just a lot of busy, inconsistent moms whose kids would successfully go further in most subjects if they attended local schools. Their estimates for how much time is wasted in school seem artificially high to justify a 90 minute school day for their 10th grader. I don’t doubt there are districts where their kid would be ahead with this pace, but this isn’t one of of them.

 

ETA: sorry for the long rant. I’m on a long, boring car trip.

 

 

I find homeschooling very easy.  I have smart kids who largely don't have disabilities of any sort.  My 7th grader does not require 2 hours a day of input from me; I doubt she requires more than half an hour of input from me.  She herself does a lot more every day, of course, but it's not hard for me.

 

I spend a lot more time thinking of ways to disguise learning activities as voluntary fun things rather than schoolwork for my 9 year old than I spend actually directly teaching him.  He can see right through direct teaching.  He cannot see through "take these materials and this TOPScience experiment and let me know if you have problems," (and then, 30 minutes later, "how did that experiment go?  oooh, how does that work?  I wonder if it works with this other thing to, or if it has anything to do with that thing.  Yeah, you should totally watch a video on it, I'll listen to it too while I work over here," etc.)

[Carrie12345]

The more I think on it, the more frustrated I get trying to articulate my thoughts.

 

Over the past 11 years and 5 kids, our homeschooling has evolved. Throughout each of its stages, my thoughts on education in general have evolved. That's not particularly unique, but I have to keep remembering that, in any given conversation, one person's idea of education may not be quite the same as the next person's.

 

There's a heavy dose of "unschooling" in my house, and I put that term in quotes because there's no universally agreed upon definition of unschooling anymore.  I know I don't qualify to purists (and I'm not trying to), and yet I could be seen as near-radical by more regimented and rigorous educators, lol.  I associate with families on both ends of the spectrum, and all of our kids get along very well in their various activities.  Through conversation (not assumption,) it's been clear that we all have the same ultimate goals for our kids.  We want them to be good, productive human beings.  And our teens are ALL exceeding our expectations.  I don't just mean our own kids, but each others'. They're all doing amazing things.

 

For a little while, I was starting to think that maybe none of it mattered. Philosophies, methods, whatever. To a certain degree, I do still think that's true, but that there must be a determining factor somewhere.  It's my belief that it comes down to a family's dedication and devotion, whatever their approach, but particularly for the less-regimented families.

 

I'm much more comfortable in social situations with a family that has alarmingly late readers who run their own small businesses than I am with someone who wants me to tell them what the best homeschool curriculum is.  The former may have debatable intentions, but the latter doesn't even know what their intentions are, other than to not go to school.  And I look like the dummy trying to explain why I can't answer them, lol.

 

I think most people (maybe excluding special needs) can get by fine, academically, with just about any old standardized curriculum (boxed or mixed and matched) without any deep philosophizing. I don't want my kids to have a standard education, so I have to identify my goals and figure out how to meet them.  It might make me appear to be neglecting certain areas of education by comparison, but it's the absolute opposite of neglect, given the thought, time, and resources devoted to meeting those different goals.

 

None of that is to say that educational neglect doesn't exist.  I have seen it, though very rarely.  Right now, I know someone who is considering it, and I hope every day that she doesn't do it!  These have been people who don't want their kids in schools, but they also don't want to learn how to teach them.  And I don't even mean they want a person or program to do the teaching, which can also be a perfectly valid method for some families.  They're not looking to travel, or work a farm, or claim any other sort of experiential learning; they just want their kids to say home and have magical fairies deliver knowledge in their sleep.  But, again, that's been very rare for me to see. Maybe 3-4 families out of the hundreds of homeschoolers and potential homeschoolers I've met over the years.  They're people who aren't dedicated and devoted to their kids' learning.

 

Meanwhile, I'm drowning in conflicting information regarding my 10yo's resistance to both handwriting and typing and obsessing over the conflicting recommended options.  He's busy producing and recording both fiction and non-fiction stories on his phone with his little brother, pets, and toys as the actors.  I won't stop working on getting him to write, but it isn't hindering his acquisition or exercise of communication skills.  He can convey a message better than some of his older siblings did at that age.  Their willingness and ability to print didn't create better output.

 

My high schoolers are fight, fight, fighting against a lot of traditional academics.  But they're willing to spend hours and hours working with small children, learning how to save lives, collaborating with adults in the community as equals, and independently researching politics, history, psychology, and sociology (though they don't necessarily see it that way) in order to actively and effectively promote social justice.  They kind of suck at math, and that no longer bothers me.  Math is still required in our house, but "meeting their full potential" in that area honestly doesn't seem like nearly as worthy a pursuit as what they actually have going on in their amazing (to me) lives.

 

As far as my 7yo goes, I think he found the magical fairies, because I had decided to take the "wait till 8" approach with him, but he's somehow already surpassed everything I had intended.

 

(My adult child was the ultimate academic. He's currently struggling to find his way in the world.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[boscopup]

My state doesn't have educational neglect laws, so therefore the point is moot here. Also, homeschooling is unregulated here now. I'm seeing a lot of parents pulling their kids on a whim and not having any idea what to do next. Then someone will say, "I just use dollar store workbooks" or they'll recommend some online programs. Easy Peasy is recommended a lot, and it's a decent program, so I have no problem with that. I hope the lady using dollar store workbooks is doing a lot of teaching on her own.

 

One thing that does concern me about homeschoolers lately is the quest for all online work for their young elementary students. On some of the FB groups, I'm seeing so much, "what is a good online program for first grade, preferably free?" I've also seen a lot of people recommend Prodigy for a sole math curriculum. Um... My kids play prodigy sometimes and love it, but it doesn't TEACH anything. It's ok for practice of concepts already understood.

 

I've used online programs for teaching on occasion, and for my kids, real books and me have been much more effective. My 5th grader was doing Khan Academy grade 6 math and not really learning. I switched him to AoPS Prealgebra with me (he has dysgraphia, so I scribe a lot), and he's doing fantastic and learning so much more. We just finished a chapter where he got almost all the challenge problems completely on his own without any hints from me or looking at the hints in the back of the book. The online math just wasn't effective for him at all. He needs a real book and a real person teaching him, even though HE prefers online.

 

Anyway, as to the original question... I don't personally know anyone who is educationally neglecting their kids by any reasonable definition of the term. Now that homeschool is unregulated, you would think maybe there would be more "poor homeschooling" here, but I don't know. Previously we had to use a cover school, but we could choose a cover school, and they varied greatly as to what they require. Some require monthly reporting, standardized testing, etc. Some require absolutely nothing. So it has always been easy here to homeschool without doing anything, as long as you picked a cover that required nothing. The state never required anything other than the reporting of absences. :lol:

 

I have known a family that I thought was not educating their kids from the way the mom talked, but then years later, it sounds like they are being educated. Unless you are in the house working with those kids, you really don't know what is going on. A friend has had stories about kids in her co-op class that couldn't read as teenagers. They tend to be people that claim they're unschooling. I haven't personally met homeschoolers like that. I purposely do not do co-ops. I occasionally go on field trips with a homeschool group. My kids go to church and have social interaction there. Two kids play a sport and interact with kids there. I have neighbor kids across the street that are also homeschooled, so my kids and their kids play together a LOT. I'm not concerned about social opportunities at the moment. I would like to eventually get my teen involved with more kids nearby, and I plan to check out a homeschooling teen thing at the library. He isn't asking for socialization though. He's kind of a loner. He has one really good friend at church. The other kids there he doesn't really hang out with on his own accord. The kids across the street are 5 years younger, but he still enjoys playing with them for now. I'm sure that will change in the next couple years, hence my desire to find him a local group of teens before he starts asking. ;)

 

Sorry, that was a ramble on about 3 different topics. It's still early here.

[G5052]

We're done, but in my area there is an option to file for homeschooling that is a one-time deal with no oversight. I know some who didn't really follow through after that. I know two families in that category who awarded diplomas without the kid finishing high school. I don't know what they'll do when they need a transcript. I guess make it up.

 

I know others who are "unregistered" and don't notify the county. There's some educational neglect there. I know of one who notified the county, and then stopped doing that after hers bombed standardized testing. She eventually put them in school though.

 

They're out there, but I personally think they're the exception, not the rule.

[mamamoose]

Your friend and me sound similar. I don't know if I've been educationally neglectful, but if you're looking for why it can take that long...here's my example.

 

Age 5 (Public School) - child cried his way through public kindergarten and made no progress. I knew I could do better than that (and believe I have). .

 

Age 6 of Homeschooling - repeated KG at home. Soon gave up on trying to "catch him up" as I was dealing with 20 minutes of crying just to get him to try sounding out words. Made "getting over fear of learning" a priority--cause it was clear that had to be dealt with before we could make any progress. We did about an hour a day, split up in 15 minute bits. After that, save for rare days of clarity, pushing longer diminishing results (more stuggle and frustration for smaller amounts of actual retention the longer we'd go). Didn't do co-op because he was scared of anything school-like.

 

Age 7 - Joined co-op. Changed curriculum and saw reading improve some, but slowly. It was only this year that we started "getting over the fear of learning." Yes, it took that long. And yes, up to that point, people had been telling me that "kids just learn at different rates...don't worry about it." And also, I had been looking up things like research on Waldorf schools and learning that kids in those school didn't even start lessons on reading until age 7, and later catch up, so I was feeling ok.

 

Age 8 - By mid year, I'm really starting to wonder if there's something more going on with my child....because I don't think it's just fear of learning (which he's gotten past mostly) that's holding him back anymore. I start to talk to people in my co-op and people in forums. What resonates is when one mom says it's rare for one child to do that poorly when other kids in the household didn't (and both of my other kids learned to read BEFORE they started school, just with us practicing with them at home...even though I didn't think of that as homeschooling then). But I also learn that our local schools won't test for dyslexia (just reading level...and I frickin know his reading level), and that the test costs $800. Just as I start looking into where to get that done, my husband looses his job. When he gets a new one it's in another state and we spend the whole summer, and what money we have left, moving.

 

Age 9 Years Old - On someone's suggestion, we check his eyesight. Turns out he needs reading glasses. I hold off on dyslexia testing until we have time to see how much that helps. A couple months later I still feel like he needs it. I'm in a state with "homeschool" charters now and start looking into if I could get testing and help through one of those. I can...but it's too late to start at any in my area. Meanwhile I start researching how to teach reading to dyslexic children and start using some methods I find (which does help my child make progress....but it is STILL SLOW). I found out I can have him tested at a local school, and am wondering whether it is worth it to do that now, this late in the year, when the charter will test him next year if I get in.

 

Would my child have been diagnosed earlier if he had been in school? Big fat MAYBE. Would he have been better off? I really doubt it, because he loves learning now, even if he's behind...and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case if we had kept him in. Have I been neglectful? I ask myself that all the time.

Ahhh, hugs. This must be a difficult thread to read in some regards. I can totally relate and have felt similar frustrations and let my kiddo stay in school for 2.5 YEARS while asking for testing and while the school actually told me he was FINE. Then I pulled all my kids out and actually taught ankindergartner to read and I will tell you SHAME ON THOSE TEACHERS for not seeing it and getting him help earlier! So educational neglect is not exclusive to homeschooling and at least your kiddo had a head start on learning to love learning! We are still catching up 3 years later.

[mamamoose]

To be honest I think this is complete BS.

 

If I were to educate my kids to their academic potential, they'd be concert pianists and get through Differential Equations and Latin, Greek, and French 5, with 10-15 APs each by graduation. Probably a couple of them would do more than that.

 

But what I'd sacrifice for educational potential, they would suffer in social development, personal development, freedom to just be a kid, learning how to work in and manage home life, etc.

 

 

I got an IB Diploma, was a NM scholar, graduated in the top 1% of my large (very good) public high school, etc. It was definitely definitely not as much as I could have done, academically. I spent the majority of my time in my junior and senior year hanging out with my boyfriend or going to band practice.

 

Guess what? I'm married to the boyfriend and we have 6 (soon 7) kids. I don't think that developing our relationship in my teens, in lieu of learning another foreign language in my free time or something, was a mistake. My academic potential, and my academic life, have come second to my social life and my home life, and that has made me happy and our family successful.

Perfectly stated. My full potential? Who knows! My IQ is 150+, I had a full ride academic scholarship to a decent university and intended on medical school. I lost my life long best friend in a car accident and spent 10 years picking up the pieces and now I see it in my own kids. But I pulled my kids or of the same school system I attended because they don’t even offer algebra until 9th grade and don’t have services for my dyslexic kiddo. And now I’m “just a housewife and teacher.†Who knows where any of our kids will end up anyway—but shouldn’t we give them time to decide that for themselves?

[mamamoose]

The more I think on it, the more frustrated I get trying to articulate my thoughts.

 

Over the past 11 years and 5 kids, our homeschooling has evolved. Throughout each of its stages, my thoughts on education in general have evolved. That's not particularly unique, but I have to keep remembering that, in any given conversation, one person's idea of education may not be quite the same as the next person's.

 

There's a heavy dose of "unschooling" in my house, and I put that term in quotes because there's no universally agreed upon definition of unschooling anymore. I know I don't qualify to purists (and I'm not trying to), and yet I could be seen as near-radical by more regimented and rigorous educators, lol. I associate with families on both ends of the spectrum, and all of our kids get along very well in their various activities. Through conversation (not assumption,) it's been clear that we all have the same ultimate goals for our kids. We want them to be good, productive human beings. And our teens are ALL exceeding our expectations. I don't just mean our own kids, but each others'. They're all doing amazing things.

 

For a little while, I was starting to think that maybe none of it mattered. Philosophies, methods, whatever. To a certain degree, I do still think that's true, but that there must be a determining factor somewhere. It's my belief that it comes down to a family's dedication and devotion, whatever their approach, but particularly for the less-regimented families.

 

I'm much more comfortable in social situations with a family that has alarmingly late readers who run their own small businesses than I am with someone who wants me to tell them what the best homeschool curriculum is. The former may have debatable intentions, but the latter doesn't even know what their intentions are, other than to not go to school. And I look like the dummy trying to explain why I can't answer them, lol.

 

I think most people (maybe excluding special needs) can get by fine, academically, with just about any old standardized curriculum (boxed or mixed and matched) without any deep philosophizing. I don't want my kids to have a standard education, so I have to identify my goals and figure out how to meet them. It might make me appear to be neglecting certain areas of education by comparison, but it's the absolute opposite of neglect, given the thought, time, and resources devoted to meeting those different goals.

 

None of that is to say that educational neglect doesn't exist. I have seen it, though very rarely. Right now, I know someone who is considering it, and I hope every day that she doesn't do it! These have been people who don't want their kids in schools, but they also don't want to learn how to teach them. And I don't even mean they want a person or program to do the teaching, which can also be a perfectly valid method for some families. They're not looking to travel, or work a farm, or claim any other sort of experiential learning; they just want their kids to say home and have magical fairies deliver knowledge in their sleep. But, again, that's been very rare for me to see. Maybe 3-4 families out of the hundreds of homeschoolers and potential homeschoolers I've met over the years. They're people who aren't dedicated and devoted to their kids' learning.

 

Meanwhile, I'm drowning in conflicting information regarding my 10yo's resistance to both handwriting and typing and obsessing over the conflicting recommended options. He's busy producing and recording both fiction and non-fiction stories on his phone with his little brother, pets, and toys as the actors. I won't stop working on getting him to write, but it isn't hindering his acquisition or exercise of communication skills. He can convey a message better than some of his older siblings did at that age. Their willingness and ability to print didn't create better output.

 

My high schoolers are fight, fight, fighting against a lot of traditional academics. But they're willing to spend hours and hours working with small children, learning how to save lives, collaborating with adults in the community as equals, and independently researching politics, history, psychology, and sociology (though they don't necessarily see it that way) in order to actively and effectively promote social justice. They kind of suck at math, and that no longer bothers me. Math is still required in our house, but "meeting their full potential" in that area honestly doesn't seem like nearly as worthy a pursuit as what they actually have going on in their amazing (to me) lives.

 

As far as my 7yo goes, I think he found the magical fairies, because I had decided to take the "wait till 8" approach with him, but he's somehow already surpassed everything I had intended.

 

(My adult child was the ultimate academic. He's currently struggling to find his way in the world.)

I love what you said about math. I have a dyslexic/dysgraphic child who I initially hoped would finally find a love for reading. However, at this point I have resigned myself to being okay with him simply becoming functionally literate. He loves to listen to books, and somehow now I am okay with that. I want him to find something about which he is immensely passionate—and I want him to contribute. I wish there were more opportunities like you describe, but we are so rural. Sigh.

[8filltheheart]

http://civicsths.libsyn.com/susan-wise-bauer Edited February 25, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[maize]

http://civicsths.libsyn.com/susan-wise-bauer

I just finished listening to that yesterday and loved it.

 

I'm reading your book as well right now :001_wub:

 

I came to homeschooling having been a child for whom traditional school was misery and not a setting I could succeed in. I was very much the "smart but scattered" type; I loved to learn but really didn't function well in any k-12 classroom setting.

 

My husband was more focused in school but very high anxiety and developed serious depression starting in junior high.

 

Our kids of course are a mix of our weaknesses and strengths with a hefty dose of their own uniqueness thrown in. We've got some above average IQ's, some ADHD and learning disabilities, some anxiety and mental health issues...basically, a bunch of individual children who are not going to fit neatly into any academic box.

 

I've poured a huge amount of effort and resources into helping my kids develop mental, physical, emotional, and social health--those to me take absolute precedence over academics.

 

Our academics have so far been a mix of interest driven/unschooling for most subjects and a more standard adult directed approach for math and to some extent foreign language. I have one with dyslexia who has needed a lot more tutoring in language arts.

 

And I have one in public school in a foreign language immersion program.

 

I suspect that a majority of people on this board if they visited my home and observed us on a random week would think my kids are educationally neglected.

 

And yet I am fairly confident in my assessment of and approach to meeting their most important needs.

Edited February 25, 2018 by maize

[fralala]

I am relatively new to these forums, but am beginning to understand how some of these discussions can have a bit of an et tu, Brute? feel.

 

Nobody can do All The Things. We all neglect different things, if we're going to think of it that way. Or we all attend to different things, and prioritize different things at different times, if we can discard the negative judgments.

 

My husband, an engineer, never had a single class in school in the arts. No music. No drawing. And no sports. Total neglect of the artistic and physical self.

 

On the flip side, my (school) science and math education were relatively poor. Neglect of the sciences.

 

Neither of us ever were offered courses in woodworking, or taught how to change the oil in a car, or to cook a meal in school. Should schools teach these things? Should homeschools?

 

Different priorities, from each other and from public schools, do not equal neglect.

 

My kids are not in public schools here because I felt like the current educational system is neglecting the questions about children's development-- their moral, social, spiritual (I'm agnostic!), emotional, and, yes, educational-- needs that must be asked by anyone to whom we entrust our kids for a huge chunk of their lives. We might come to different conclusions. But we must at least talk about, struggle with reflect upon the hard questions-- what does it mean to be successful? to lead a good and meaningful life? to be well-educated? to be a child? to grow and become a mature adult?-- before we can really educate our kids.

 

(And yes, I am absolutely influenced by the talk posted above and by SWB's latest book. That is a discussion I find interesting. The neglect thing I have become a little more skeptical of now that I hear people's definitions of neglect, which seem to water down something that is, in fact, criminal in all senses of the word.)

[....]

I have become more and more skeptical of homeschooling as the years have passed (and I am still homeschooling). I think the educational neglect is over 90%. I think the social neglect is lower in areas with a lot of homeschool social activities available. And I think that participating in too many of the social activities contributes to the educational neglect, and the tendency for the parents to not realize it’s a problem. They get an echo chamber going.

 

 

:confused:  Um...90%???  What area are you in???

 

I'm in Texas...been homeschooling for about 9-10 years...have been around hundreds of homeschooled kids...I'm going to say I've met 3 families where I don't think the mom is/was working with the kids, because she was overwhelmed and they just kinda let it go- year after year.  One of the families put their kids back in public school and I suspect the second family will do that also.  The third family ended up using an online high school (I think it was Penn Foster - not something I would do with my kids, but oh well), so I guess, ultimately, it was fine.  

 

Most of the homeschooling families I've met are strict, school-at-home homeschoolers (that seems to be the common variety here in TX).  They are constantly fretting that they aren't doing enough and it's almost like a rat race.  They are very insecure.  A big chunk of the homeschoolers I've met here use either Sonlight or MFW.  Those seem to be huge here.

 

Too many social activities contributing to educational neglect...  Yep, I agree with you that can happen and most of the homeschoolers I've met were really over scheduled.  We were brainwashed into thinking our homeschoolers need a constant effort at socialization or they're going to be weird, dysfunctional homeschool robots.  So, a lot of new homeschoolers put them in every activity under the sun.  That's actually the advice I give new homeschoolers: be careful you don't over schedule activities.  You still need time to get your schoolwork done.  

[....]

Why do so many people believe that higher maths of this type are fundamental to an ethically-acceptable educational opportunities, but not, for example, master chef classes? 

 

This is kind of an aside, but can someone please explain to me why every single child in America ought to be able to take Calculus+ in high school if they choose to, but not something else?

 

:iagree:   I have two kids who I guess will major in fine arts.  I've been told by her teacher that one (age 13) is at an early college level in her art.  The other (age 10) is being prepped to possibly dance in college (she does Russian ballet) or go professional.

 

They will probably not reach calculus in high school.  But, I doubt most people can paint portraits like dd13 can...or do ballet like dd10 can.  (I know I can't!  :tongue_smilie: ) 

 

And the kids and I just spent all weekend reading about the theory of multiple intelligences.  Lol.  Fitting to this conversation.  

[EKS]

To be honest I think this is complete BS.

 

I guess you didn't see my follow up post that said I meant to do what was *reasonable* to have kids work to the their potential, not to go all Tiger Mom on them.

 

We did this by setting limits on time devoted to academic activities.

[Farrar]

I don't think this is so much about geographic region. We always think we know so many people, and I don't think we do. We know the people in our circles and the people a degree or two away from us. We don't know the people who choose not to join groups and purposefully avoid other homeschoolers. We have selection bias.

 

I think we owe it to our children to listen to the stories of homeschool alums who feel they were educationally or socially neglected. I feel sick every time I read homeschoolers trashing homeschool alums who feel their upbringing was neglectful or hurt their ability to function in the world. They own their lives and their stories and it's not up to you to define them.

 

I think when we have a kneejerk attitude that it never or almost never happens, that's a form of closing ranks and enabling abuse.

 

My number one definition of educational neglect is when kids ask to learn and aren't taught or ask for access to materials and aren't given them. The number of stories of this among homeschool alums is shocking to me. But also, I think not attempting to equip a child with the skills to get a job and lead a productive life is neglect. That includes when teens are content to ignore their own educations. I think purposefully not educating daughters as well as sons is educational neglect. I think expecting the primary task of older children to be taking care of younger ones or working around the home or business is educational neglect.

 

I don't think unschooling is more dangerous for educational neglect. All the unschoolers I've known encourage an atmosphere of learning in their lives, encourage access to books and information, and encourage their kids to think about their future lives and careers. I'm sure there are just as many self-identifying unschoolers who neglect though. I just don't know them. Same with homeschoolers. Because I have selection bias.

 

There is virtually zero reliable data about homeschoolers and outcomes. No matter what we look at, it's a shot in the dark. My gut feeling says that probably not more than 15% of homeschoolers educationally neglect kids and hopefully less. My gut says less. But who the heck knows? Anyone in this thread claiming to know is misleading us because there's simply no data that isn't completely anecdotal.

[Lecka]

This isn’t exactly where this conversation is right now, but I’m going to mention something else about the popularity of withdrawing kids from public school on a whim.

 

I get targeted mail (or I assume it’s targeted, maybe they send it to everybody) with advertisements for online charters. They present it in the mailers like it’s so simple and so desirable, they will provide a laptop, they will send science labs to do on the kitchen table.

 

They also advertise in other ways, I see advertisements for them here and there.

 

It’s something that is new to me in the past couple of years, and I wonder if it is influencing some parents to have an attitude like they can easily pull their kids from school and figure something out.

 

I think they do nothing to highlight any parent involvement. They will have things like a photo of a boy smiling with a laptop, no adult in the picture, and then list out everything taught.

 

I have had my own experience with trying computer programs with my oldest, I thought he could learn to read from playing a computer game, and things like that.

 

It’s so unrealistic for him, and I was so disappointed, I thought it was desirable.

 

I guess I have a lot of sympathy for people who think the computer will be great, and then it isn’t for their kid, but I also think it’s something where there is a lot of advertising and often testimonials where parents share success stories, too.

 

But I don’t think that excuses repeatedly doing it.

[maize]

I don't think this is so much about geographic region. We always think we know so many people, and I don't think we do. We know the people in our circles and the people a degree or two away from us. We don't know the people who choose not to join groups and purposefully avoid other homeschoolers. We have selection bias.

 

I think we owe it to our children to listen to the stories of homeschool alums who feel they were educationally or socially neglected. I feel sick every time I read homeschoolers trashing homeschool alums who feel their upbringing was neglectful or hurt their ability to function in the world. They own their lives and their stories and it's not up to you to define them.

 

I think when we have a kneejerk attitude that it never or almost never happens, that's a form of closing ranks and enabling abuse.

 

My number one definition of educational neglect is when kids ask to learn and aren't taught or ask for access to materials and aren't given them. The number of stories of this among homeschool alums is shocking to me. But also, I think not attempting to equip a child with the skills to get a job and lead a productive life is neglect. That includes when teens are content to ignore their own educations. I think purposefully not educating daughters as well as sons is educational neglect. I think expecting the primary task of older children to be taking care of younger ones or working around the home or business is educational neglect.

 

I don't think unschooling is more dangerous for educational neglect. All the unschoolers I've known encourage an atmosphere of learning in their lives, encourage access to books and information, and encourage their kids to think about their future lives and careers. I'm sure there are just as many self-identifying unschoolers who neglect though. I just don't know them. Same with homeschoolers. Because I have selection bias.

 

There is virtually zero reliable data about homeschoolers and outcomes. No matter what we look at, it's a shot in the dark. My gut feeling says that probably not more than 15% of homeschoolers educationally neglect kids and hopefully less. My gut says less. But who the heck knows? Anyone in this thread claiming to know is misleading us because there's simply no data that isn't completely anecdotal.

I agree that listening to the stories of homeschool alums is important.

 

And that the things you listed are problematic.

 

And...I don't know anyone in my circles who is doing those things. Many of them seem to be a problem primarily in certain religious circles, and most of us on this board are not in those circles.

 

Which brings up the point that it may be meaningless to consider "homeschoolers" as a whole--we are just too diverse.

[EKS]

I think you're going to continue to get pushback on this no matter how you qualify it because it's so incredibly subjective. 

 

--------------

 

Separately from the above, the ONLY time I've ever heard my ps friends talk about their kids not fulfilling their academic potential, was in reference to their kids not being really enthusiastic about homework. And I think most homework is completely useless from the jump, LOL, so I feel like engaged homeschoolers are basically speaking a different language than almost everyone else. And we all have way more in common than not, even when we feel like some of us aren't doing so hot and some of us are going overboard or whatever. 

 

That's ok, no one needs to agree with me  :001_smile:

 

Regarding your second comment--I think you're right.  Engaged homeschoolers that are constantly probing the potential of their students have a much more realistic understanding of how far it extends than do most parents with kids in school.  

[Farrar]

I tend to think of homeschooling as overlapping circles. I'm in a populous area. I'm part of this list and that one and this group, etc. Those people are part of another list and another co-op, and so forth. Like, we're all closely overlapping.

 

Usually this thinking serves me well - I'll meet someone - even someone an hour away - who homeschools and I'll be like, do you know so and so or so and so. Oh, yes, I do. Or, oh, yeah, I'm on that list. Or, oh yeah, my kids took that class years ago. Overlapping circles.

 

But every once in awhile, I meet someone whose circles have NO overlap. Like, none. This happened to me recently. Dh is an actor and he did a show where the theater was in a church. One of the church women who was doing the tech for the theater turned out to homeschool. So I did the circles thing. Who do we know in common? What groups?

 

None. Not a one. She lives not that far away. She lives in the same neighborhood as two families I know. She was active socially with homeschool friends. We had no overlap. She's a very religious homeschooler, it turned out. Most of my circles are secular, but many of the people in them are religious (but homeschooling for secular reasons) and have some religious circles as well. But there was no overlap.

 

In moments like that, I realize that there are whole parallel worlds in homeschooling. I think of myself as pretty well connected in the homeschool world here - and other people do to. But I simply don't know whole communities of people. And in that, I know, there could easily be some parallel world where educational neglect is common. Just right next door. Who knows.

 

ETA: She seems to be a lovely person and not at all an educational neglecter, fyi. I don't mean to imply her circles might have any neglect rampant either. Just that there are these parallel worlds and we don't know who we don't know.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Farrar

[Farrar]

This bothers me too. I feel like it's a new form of educational neglect. I don't even know if I can blame the parents and I definitely don't blame homeschoolers.

 

I blame the corporations that are being allowed to take over public education and peddle this stuff. Online charters can be great options... but the for profit motives are just so dirty. And people have to go into them with their eyes open, which the companies - of course! - don't want because it would hurt their business. And the government money that's going into them isn't going into helping people understand their options at all.

 

This isn’t exactly where this conversation is right now, but I’m going to mention something else about the popularity of withdrawing kids from public school on a whim.

I get targeted mail (or I assume it’s targeted, maybe they send it to everybody) with advertisements for online charters. They present it in the mailers like it’s so simple and so desirable, they will provide a laptop, they will send science labs to do on the kitchen table.

They also advertise in other ways, I see advertisements for them here and there.

It’s something that is new to me in the past couple of years, and I wonder if it is influencing some parents to have an attitude like they can easily pull their kids from school and figure something out.

I think they do nothing to highlight any parent involvement. They will have things like a photo of a boy smiling with a laptop, no adult in the picture, and then list out everything taught.

I have had my own experience with trying computer programs with my oldest, I thought he could learn to read from playing a computer game, and things like that.

It’s so unrealistic for him, and I was so disappointed, I thought it was desirable.

I guess I have a lot of sympathy for people who think the computer will be great, and then it isn’t for their kid, but I also think it’s something where there is a lot of advertising and often testimonials where parents share success stories, too.

But I don’t think that excuses repeatedly doing it.

 

[kiana]

I don't think this is so much about geographic region. We always think we know so many people, and I don't think we do. We know the people in our circles and the people a degree or two away from us. We don't know the people who choose not to join groups and purposefully avoid other homeschoolers. We have selection bias.

 

I think we owe it to our children to listen to the stories of homeschool alums who feel they were educationally or socially neglected. I feel sick every time I read homeschoolers trashing homeschool alums who feel their upbringing was neglectful or hurt their ability to function in the world. They own their lives and their stories and it's not up to you to define them.

 

I think when we have a kneejerk attitude that it never or almost never happens, that's a form of closing ranks and enabling abuse.

 

My number one definition of educational neglect is when kids ask to learn and aren't taught or ask for access to materials and aren't given them. The number of stories of this among homeschool alums is shocking to me. But also, I think not attempting to equip a child with the skills to get a job and lead a productive life is neglect. That includes when teens are content to ignore their own educations. I think purposefully not educating daughters as well as sons is educational neglect. I think expecting the primary task of older children to be taking care of younger ones or working around the home or business is educational neglect.

 

I don't think unschooling is more dangerous for educational neglect. All the unschoolers I've known encourage an atmosphere of learning in their lives, encourage access to books and information, and encourage their kids to think about their future lives and careers. I'm sure there are just as many self-identifying unschoolers who neglect though. I just don't know them. Same with homeschoolers. Because I have selection bias.

 

There is virtually zero reliable data about homeschoolers and outcomes. No matter what we look at, it's a shot in the dark. My gut feeling says that probably not more than 15% of homeschoolers educationally neglect kids and hopefully less. My gut says less. But who the heck knows? Anyone in this thread claiming to know is misleading us because there's simply no data that isn't completely anecdotal.

 

I agree with your definition of educational neglect, and with everything else.

 

With respect to unschooling, where I think it's more dangerous is *not realizing* that your kid hasn't learned things, and I'm referring to core things like the three R's. If you're working in a book that's grade levels behind or you're working in a book that's grade appropriate but they're unable to get it, it's much more obvious.

 

I will share, personally, that I had an unschooled relative who was horrified when taking the CC math placement test to find his estimated grade level was 3-4. 

 

He was highly intelligent and articulate, and with a couple of weeks of concentrated work (and Life of Fred -- one of the places where I think it REALLY can work well is with someone who's older, untaught, and very articulate) was able to pass the placement test into Algebra. He flew through beginning algebra, but struggled in intermediate and college algebra. Basically, because he had learned it so fast, he hadn't really internalized it, and so while he could solve the problems and understand them, it wasn't automatic. After college algebra, it actually got better because his arithmetic/basic algebra skills had become automatic. He is doing fine now but quite negative about the mathematics aspect of his education, and it did close off STEM pathways (except life sciences) as potential majors for him unless he wanted to spend 6 years at college. 

 

Should he have had CPS involved? No. But more and more, I am liking the idea of an evaluation (standardized test or teacher, your choice, state pays) for information only. I honestly think that it would be an alert for many of the parents with the "I meant to educate them but things have gotten away from me" problem going on. 

[maize]

And being a very religious homeschooler it bothers me that I am often lumped in with those “certain circles.†I had never heard of Gothardites before I joined this forum. If a secular homeschooler who is heavily involved in a lot of groups meets me, sees my larger than average family and the miraculous medal around my neck and hears that we aren’t really involved in local homeschool groups, are they actually thinking those are things are red flags for neglect and abuse? That’s ridiculous and offensive.

I’m not talking about you, maize, it’s just an attitude that seems to be coming out in dribs and drabs throughout this thread.

Yeah.

 

I'm religious as well.

 

And have a large family.

 

And I would never have known there were homeschoolers who intentionally limit their daughters' education if not for this board.

 

Some of the homeschool alum stories/organizational efforts seem to assume that what they experienced is THE face of homeschooling, when in fact they lived in a very limited fringe world.

 

I really don't know how to help the fringe world though I think help is needed.

[Farrar]

Should he have had CPS involved? No. But more and more, I am liking the idea of an evaluation (standardized test or teacher, your choice, state pays) for information only. I honestly think that it would be an alert for many of the parents with the "I meant to educate them but things have gotten away from me" problem going on. 

 

I've come to believe that this is one of the best reasons to potentially require testing for homeschoolers. You could even maybe have some way for homeschoolers to continue to choose their own nationally normed tests (like they already do in a number of states) and have a receipt sent to the state without the scores. And then maybe the parent signs something affirming that they read the score report.

 

I know that people don't like the idea of regulation. And obviously no regulation is perfect - most of them are easy to get out of. But I don't think that doesn't mean we shouldn't try something.

 

One of CRHE's rec's is that homeschooled kids should be required to have a yearly physical. I'm not sure how I feel about that one... but I'm not totally against it either. I think it might stem other kinds of abuse, though I doubt it would touch on educational neglect.

[8filltheheart]

One of CRHE's rec's is that homeschooled kids should be required to have a yearly physical. I'm not sure how I feel about that one... but I'm not totally against it either. I think it might stem other kinds of abuse, though I doubt it would touch on educational neglect.

Or pit parental philosophies against the dr's or get parents to lie. When our 2nd youngest was 4, took her in for her yrly physical and that dr and I had a strong disagreement about the necessity of preschool academics. I knew exactly what I believed bc I had high school and adult kids by that point, but she would have browbeat a younger mom. I could have easily lied and said what I knew she wanted to hear, but I am not that kind of person. I knew when I responded where the conversation might go, and I was willing to stand my ground. But, unless there are going to be minimum educational standards which every single kid is expected to meet in 2-3 mins, drs screening for educational neglect is not going to be successful.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah.

 

I'm religious as well.

 

And have a large family.

 

And I would never have known there were homeschoolers who intentionally limit their daughters' education if not for this board.

 

Some of the homeschool alum stories/organizational efforts seem to assume that what they experienced is THE face of homeschooling, when in fact they lived in a very limited fringe world.

 

I really don't know how to help the fringe world though I think help is needed.

 

Exactly.  And when you collect members of that limited fringe world online, then it looks even bigger because you are bringing those 1 to 5 percenters to a shared platform. 

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, when I hear the adult stories of educational neglect, I have 2 young adults in my life actively involved who make me remember that there are 2 sides to every story. If you listen to their stories, their educations were extremely neglected, and they had no social life due to their controlling mother. I know that their mom had them actively involved in way more than I would ever be willing to do for my kids. One went to high school. (Not sure how she reconciles that with homeschooling destroyed her life.) The other went to college on full scholarship. (Same.) Both have master's degrees.

I know "the rest of the story." I read their "voices" as fictionalized versions of what they think they missed out on bc of homeschooling, not real neglect. But, whoa, their animosity toward homeschooling is real and venomous.

 

ETA: I am NOT dismissing that there are real stories of neglect.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jean in Newcastle]

Fwiw, when I hear the adult stories of educational neglect, I have 2 young adults in my life actively involved who make me remember that there are 2 sides to every story. If you listen to their stories, their educations were extremely neglected, and they had no social life due to their controlling mother. I know that their mom had them actively involved in way more than I would ever be willing to do for my kids. One went to high school. (Not sure how she reconciles that with homeschooling destroyed her life.) The other went to college on full scholarship. (Same.) Both have master's degrees.

 

I know "the rest of the story." I read their "voices" as fictionalized versions of what they think they missed out on bc of homeschooling, not real neglect. But, whoa, their animosity toward homeschooling is real and venomous.

 

I know a couple of adults like that too, and one has a similar reaction to  homeschooling.  But those sooty colored glasses are seriously flawed.  I'm not saying that everyone with a neglect story is wrong but there needs to be some discernment there.  We all have things in our lives that we might have rewritten.  And I don't have a problem with someone objectively deciding that homeschooling might not be something they want to pursue for their own kids.