How Common is Educational Neglect Among Homeschoolers?

[LuvToRead]

I have seen one family that I suspect is neglecting the education of their children based on limited observation and contact that I've had with them. They are a missionary family with many children ranging in age from approximately 17 to 2. They have basically no money, roam from country to country on 90-day tourist visas trying to evangelize but they are not with any organized missionary society or church. The kids have no home base. They sleep on floors most of the time at unsuspecting people's homes that believe they are helping out this missionary family. They have no plan to give the kids math above Algebra 2, there are no transcripts being prepared. The whole plan seems to be the kids will score very well on the SAT and get admitted to colleges on scholarship without any sort of transcript. They took advantage of our co-op for the brief time they came through our country and never actually paid the minimal dues we charge, used all our supplies, took part in classes without contributing even any teaching, and then left the country. At first they seemed very nice, etc., but then after a while we definitely felt taken advantage of. I feel sorry for the kids. I know how disrupted our schooling gets when we just take off two weeks for a vacation. I could in no way teach a large family of children with no home to speak of.

 

Why would not teaching beyond Algebra 2 be considered neglect?  It is not required at the public high school.  My state requires 2 years of math to graduation, 1 must be Algebra 1, and one class must contain geometry content.   I am planning on teaching through Algebra 2 and hopefully my oldest will take math her senior year at the local CC.  

[LuvToRead]

To answer the OP's question:  I have not come across what I would consider true educational neglect.  I do know some families who I think should be doing more, but that is just my opinion.   However, like others, I do not hang out with many other homeschoolers in my area. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Some of the judgmental attitudes coming from homeschoolers is appalling to me. Yes, kids need consistent teaching. But it does nor have to look like “school at homeâ€. I think the judgmental attitude is more corrosive than the small fraction of true legal neglect.

 

 

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[Lecka]

I know one. They pulled their son from school in middle school when he was about to have to repeat either several classes or a grade. They didn’t want to deal with him having after-school tutoring or attending summer school. They were very offended that he be expected to learn the material or do his homework. Very odd attitude, to be honest.

 

Anyway, yeah, they just pulled him from school and said they were homeschooling, but they didn’t do anything.

 

This is a family member so I have an inside view.

 

I have never met anyone else homeschooling who seemed neglectful to me. And with this situation, they kept it quiet because they didn’t want to be questioned or criticized about it, so I doubt any non-family members were aware of it. I’m pretty sure that if it came up at church they told people they were using Abeka, but for a year the mom kept not getting around to ordering it, and then she did order it (or something) but then didn’t use it.

 

Edit: it started with the school telling the parents he wasn’t turning in homework. It came across to me like he was confused about it, not like he was just blowing it off. Anyway — the parents never took any step as far as having him do the homework or helping him with the homework. They just complained like “how dare the school say this.â€

 

Then he could have had tutoring but he would have had to be picked up from school instead of riding the bus home.

 

The mom didn’t work and had a car, but she saw this as such a huge imposition, she was so hostile about it.

 

Then she thought her husband should pick him up on the way home from work, even though it was out of his way.

 

So the parents would fight over who was going to pick him up from school when he had tutoring, and it was this big point of contention, and all the school’s fault for wanting him to go to after-school tutoring.

 

Edit: for a little while at least he did go to the tutoring, and the dad would pick him up, but he would just be boiling mad because the mom would basically refuse to drive to pick him up.

 

Pretty childish behavior but it’s typical for them.

 

Edit: I’m not 100% clear on this, but I think they ended up telling him not to go to the tutoring, just ride the bus. Then they were told he wasn’t going to pass and would need to take summer school or be held back. Then I think they pulled him from school before they assigned those grades, and were thinking about saying that semester was homeschool, and then putting him in another school where he wouldn’t be held back. But then they didn’t take any steps to enroll him anywhere the next school year. And then it dragged on from there.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Lecka

[EKS]

I have become more and more skeptical of homeschooling as the years have passed (and I am still homeschooling). I think the educational neglect is over 90%. I think the social neglect is lower in areas with a lot of homeschool social activities available. And I think that participating in too many of the social activities contributes to the educational neglect, and the tendency for the parents to not realize it’s a problem. They get an echo chamber going.

 

I am going to cautiously agree with this.

 

I define educational neglect as not educating a child to their potential.  I understand that as I've used them here, the words "educating" and "potential" are slippery, but I'm going to go with them anyway.  Using this definition, I would say that b&m schools are guilty of educational neglect just as often as homeschoolers are.  This doesn't make it ok. 

 

There are also degrees of educational neglect, so not ensuring that a kid learns to read or do basic math is more severe than undereducating that same kid to, say, the 30th percentile in reading and math when they are capable of the 90th.  I realize this issue goes well beyond percentiles--I'm just using them as a shorthand for levels of educational attainment.

 

In the case of homeschoolers, the myth that homeschooling is always better than public school contributes to the problem.  And too many social activities definitely make things worse.  I am always amazed when I hear about families who don't have time for academics beyond a math workbook a few times a week, but seem to flit from one activity to the next every single day.

 

I also think that social neglect is a real concern.  I've been guilty of it myself (unintentionally), which is why my son is attending the public high school part time--where, ironically, he is experiencing educational neglect.  

Edited February 26, 2018 by EKS

[8filltheheart]

kids need consistent teaching. But it does not have to look like “school at homeâ€. 

 

Absolutely.  Traditional classroom methodology has plenty of its own issues.

 

FWIW, if the term educational neglect encompasses not teaching math beyond alg 2, not educating a child up to their potential, etc, then the entire conversation is meaningless when the majority of educational systems in this country are failing the criteria.   Classroom education by design is meant to meet the masses, not the individual.

Edited February 24, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have never ever met my potential. And frankly I wouldn’t want to. Oh the stress of it all. I don’t see having to meet a Tiger Mom’s definition of education to be a healthy thing. By all means, “do you and your family “ but don’t judge the rest of us. I find this conversation a bit ironic when put next to the conclusions SWB has been making in Rethinking School.

 

I do understand that there is true educational neglect out there. Often for a season before parents realize that they aren’t cut out to be home educators. But long term educational neglect is often just a part of more serious dysfunction. I think that most non dysfunctional parents love their kids and want them to be successful in life.

 

 

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[EKS]

I have never ever met my potential. And frankly I wouldn’t want to. Oh the stress of it all. I don’t see having to meet a Tiger Mom’s definition of education to be a healthy thing. 

 

I'm assuming that this is referring to my post.

 

When I say "educating a child to their potential," I mean having that as the target and doing what is *reasonable* to get there.  I don't mean going all Tiger Mom on them.

[...................]

At all three of the big co-ops we've been a part of, about 80% of elementary and middle school kids don't bother to do the homework, even when it is printed out, color-coded, and emailed to parents...

 

With high school easier/ more fun classes it's about 80% again...my dd's ASL class has 12 kids.  9 do NOTHING week in and week out.  3 do their homework and projects.

 

With the high school more academic classes (Biology, Advanced Composition), it's about 50%.   50% consistently do their homework and 50% don't.  I spoke with several of these long-time teachers to get a feel for how they handle the class, and both said, it's very consistently, after ten years of co-op teaching at multiple co-ops, approximately 50%....they don't understand it either.  

 

These two experienced teachers have found a way to run and to teach the class that doesn't reward the non-performing students and DOES reward the performing, hard working students.  

 

THe ASL teacher is new this year and hasn't figured it out and it is causing a LOT of frustration for my dd.  She may not take this lady's class again next year...

 

All that to say...standards vary wildly.  I can't imagine why someone would pay 800.00 per year for a class and then never care if their child did a single thing...I don't know why they don't just stay home and do that for nothing.  ??

[...................]

Here in the hothouse of Tiger Moms, I wonder if I would be seen as educational neglect because I don't force my kids into math and science camps all summer, pay for extra tutoring to "get ahead," and send them to Mandarin school on Saturdays, etc. etc.

 

When you think someone doing less is "neglectful," watch out because someone more aggressive than you are, may think the same thing about you.  :P

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm assuming that this is referring to my post.

 

When I say "educating a child to their potential," I mean having that as the target and doing what is *reasonable* to get there. I don't mean going all Tiger Mom on them.

I do agree but not all kids are or should be headed to college- especially select colleges. And kids have a lot of say (directly or indirectly) in their trajectory. I do want kids to have all sorts of doors open to them. But I also realize that a top level of education is a luxury. It’s a luxury that I am very fortunate to be able to give my kids. But our journey has not been linear or smooth and if people had tried to judge along the way they would have felt smug and self righteous as they judged us. And yet I, like 8, have come out the other side with some of my kids (ok just one for me) and I am proud of my young adult who is flying just fine.

 

In fact I just put my son on the plane this morning for an out of state college visit where he has been offered a scholarship. But his education was a joint venture. I did a lot but if he had refused to take off on his own it would not have been on me. (This is why I roll my eyes at some young people who did have opportunities but squandered them and now blame their parents. )

 

I have a high schooler who has had significant challenges in her educational journey but she too will be fine. I actually think that she will succeed specifically because I did not try to shoehorn her trajectory into someone else’s mold. One of my biggest struggles has been having a history hating daughter because I love history! But she just picked up two history books yesterday from the library on her own in part (I think) because I have given her room to see the need for history and given her freedom to chart her own educational journey in the later years.

[freesia]

Wow!

 

I went to public school in a major city. I was not educated to my potential, but I got a good education that prepared me for a top 25 LAC. Should my parents have gone into debt to pay to send me to Aprivate school or move to the better suburban schools? Was it neglectful to keep us there? Or my Profoundly gifted brother ( who went on to Yale) Neither of us had chemistry.

 

My kids are being better educated than we were, but we could do more. However, we found that a balanced lifestyle and social activities fostered better mental health on our family.

Edited February 24, 2018 by freesia

[EKS]

I do agree but not all kids are or should be headed to college- especially select colleges.

 

I absolutely agree.  Educating to potential doesn't have anything to do with actually attending college unless the student wants it to.  But it does have to do with giving the student an education that will allow them to succeed in college if that is within their potential.

[freesia]

Ok, but sonmeone listed Alg 2 level as neglect. While I hope my kids go through calculus, I do have one friend whose dd is thriving at a selective school with only Alg 2.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ok, but sonmeone listed Alg 2 level as neglect. While I hope my kids go through calculus, I do have one friend whose dd is thriving at a selective school with only Alg 2.

 

I mentioned my son earlier.  He is a college STEM major.  Has been offered a good scholarship in his major.  He only went through Alg 2 in homeschool because that is all that he was ready for - at the time.

 

I find it strange and disturbing that some would think that there is educational neglect on one side and a great education on the other and nothing in between.  I also find it strange that people talk a lot about teaching our kids how to learn and then somehow think that they are unable to learn anything after high school if it isn't a narrowly prescribed program. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

They set the kid up on the public school virtual online program and then go to work like usual.

 

Guess what.  They aren't homeschoolers.  I think that it is a shame also.  And I get that there are lazy homeschoolers out there.  But don't lump public school deadbeats in the same bucket when talking percentages of homeschoolers who are failing. 

[laundrycrisis]

Over 90%?!? That's a bold assertion. Would you be willing to share how you define "neglect"?

 

This was a failed attempt at posting on a phone, and now I can't get rid of it.   

Edited February 24, 2018 by laundrycrisis

[LuvToRead]

Ok, but sonmeone listed Alg 2 level as neglect. While I hope my kids go through calculus, I do have one friend whose dd is thriving at a selective school with only Alg 2.

.

I read the post as beyond Algebra II.  So not teaching anything after Algebra 2 would be considered neglectful.  Maybe I read it wrong.  I just can't imagine how not teaching pre-calc would be neglectful.  My DD16 is planning on majoring in history, and only needs 2 math classes in college, neither of which are calculus.  Things may change of course, but right now the plan is for her to take math at the CC her senior year instead of me teaching her pre-calc.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by LuvToRead

[Lecka]

My relatives I mentioned, definitely thought they could pull their son from school with failing grades, say they were homeschooling, never get the report card with the bad grades on it, and then enroll him in another school the next year like he wasn’t failing the year before.

 

They didn’t do it but I think they just didn’t follow through, but maybe they were wrong about it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My relatives I mentioned, definitely thought they could pull their son from school with failing grades, say they were homeschooling, never get the report card with the bad grades on it, and then enroll him in another school the next year like he wasn’t failing the year before.

 

They didn’t do it but I think they just didn’t follow through, but maybe they were wrong about it.

 

And I do think that there should be some kind of legislation to prevent this sort of thing.  Unless they legally had him repeat a grade in which case maybe it was the best thing for him. 

[8filltheheart]

This article has some interesting statistics https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-rural-higher-education-crisis/541188/

Overall, 59 percent of rural high-school grads—white and nonwhite, at every income level—go to college the subsequent fall, a lower proportion than the 62 percent of urban and 67 percent of suburban graduates who do, the clearinghouse says. Forty-two percent of people ages 18 to 24 are enrolled in all of higher education, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, but only 29 percent come from rural areas, compared to nearly 48 percent from cities.

 

 

 

ETA: only 83% of high school students graduate from high school (and that statistic includes students in alternative schools, not just traditional high schools).  Of those, only 42% attend college. And of those, 

 

 

The vast majority of public two- and four-year colleges report enrolling students – more than half a million of them–who are not ready for college-level work, a Hechinger Report investigation of 44 states has found.....nearly half of entering students at two-year schools and a fifth at four-year schools were placed in remedial classes in the fall of 2006. Nearly 40 percent of students at two-year schools and a quarter of those at four-year schools failed to complete their remedial classes, that report found. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/colleges-enroll-students-arent-prepared-higher-education

 

I am not sure what standard people are using to define educational neglect, but it definitely seems like that posters are holding homeschoolers to a higher standard. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Tsuga]

Ignoring the nomadic description, this point is not neglect. Algebra 2 as a highest math is not uncommon.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=97

 

I am not sure what it means that no transcripts are being prepared?? I don't prepare a transcript unless there is a need. One doesn't exist unless I make one, which I don't do until I have to. I am wondering if I am misunderstanding what is being meant by this comment.

 

That is a helpful link. Thank you for finding it.

 

I think when parents are not prepared to facilitate more than Algebra 2 that is a problem.

 

And for the record, I think what the US does to its children in the poorest urban and rural districts does qualify us all as guilty of educational neglect. Every child in the US should have an education which prepares them at least for community college math (so, through geometry or algebra II whichever is later in the series) and an opportunity to take up through calculus. As a matter of fact, this is not the case. It's appalling. As a nation we are also guilty.

 

Not to totally derail but we should not absolve the public schools or homeschoolers of responsibility just because there are failures on the "other side".

 

You can't have every kid in the country getting an A in Algebra II though. Anyone who has taught any kind of quantitative reasoning to the general public must realize that. I don't need my car mechanic to know pre-calculus. A generally hardworking and problem solving attitude and an intuition for mechanical physics will do just fine and she gets paid quite a fair salary with benefits.

[Lecka]

Frankly the people doing that refer to themselves as homeschoolers.

 

Or they say they are going to homeschool, but have no particular plan, then end up doing the online charter.

 

But in the lead-up to that they announce that they are going to homeschool and tell everyone that.

 

I know what the friend is talking about, but it’s not the face of homeschooling to me, and I don’t think it’s the face of homeschooling to many people.

 

However they are withdrawing the kids at the time under homeschooling regulations, whatever option they choose later.

 

Edit: some of them don’t really do much with their kids then. I do think there are people who are doing well with online school, because they actually do what they are supposed to do. Some people don’t provide the supervision needed for their kids. I made a broad statement about people who use online school, that I didn’t mean.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Lecka

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm not trying to lump them in. But what I'm saying is from the outside everyone who is a non-homeschooler might see it as they same. So while I don't count that as homeschool educational neglect, someone else might. And it is aggravating because I don't feel like it's true of real homeschoolers, but I don't get to decide what counts as a real homeschooler in public opinion.

But you can correct your friends when they mistake the two. And it is the actual law that counts. This is partly why it rankles in this thread when people bandy about the “educational neglect “ label for things that are not legally neglect. It would be the same if someone went around claiming that people are abusing their kids when it us not actually abuse. These terms have specific meanings. And it matters that one understands and uses them correctly. Because when they are used incorrectly then innocent people are accused of breaking the law. And instead of encouragement and understanding within the homeschool community there is judgment and blame -often with no true understanding of the situation and how it is going to turn out.

[Lecka]

To me it’s the homeschool regulation that lets people pull their kids out on a whim. If the homeschool regulation required them to have a plan or to follow through with online school (as opposed to set up online school but not follow through with it the way it is meant to be followed through with), it wouldn’t be something people did on a whim.

 

Maybe.

 

That’s a way I think it does relate to homeschooling.

 

Even though it doesn’t have to do with actual homeschooling.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Jean in Newcastle ——— just curious to you. For the people who pull their kids to avoid bad grades and plan to re-enroll them the next year with homeschool grades instead of those grades...... what are they to be called? They have withdrawn their students to homeschool. They have said they are homeschooling.

 

While I agree it’s not real homeschooling, what word is better to use?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean in Newcastle ——— just curious to you. For the people who pull their kids to avoid bad grades and plan to re-enroll them the next year with homeschool grades instead of those grades...... what are they to be called? They have withdrawn their students to homeschool. They have said they are homeschooling.

 

While I agree it’s not real homeschooling, what word is better to use?

Not schooling. Truancy. I said above (somewhere) that I think that there is a problem with the laws in some states. And that there should be consequences for not following the laws at all. But that is up to the State.

[8filltheheart]

Jean in Newcastle ——— just curious to you. For the people who pull their kids to avoid bad grades and plan to re-enroll them the next year with homeschool grades instead of those grades...... what are they to be called? They have withdrawn their students to homeschool. They have said they are homeschooling.

 

While I agree it’s not real homeschooling, what word is better to use?

 

This process is not sustainable and they will be caught in a loop somewhere b/c most high schools do not accept homeschool courses for credit.

 

FWIW, I think having a policy in place for "rebound" schoolers who exit due to truancy/educational neglect issues and then testing or requiring a submitted portfolio upon re-entering would be appropriate without those small numbers in turn creating a process impacting all homeschoolers.  I think having an follow-up process for parents who withdraw due to truancy/conflict issues in general is appropriate b/c truancy is a possible indicator of bigger issues.

Edited February 24, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[BlsdMama]

I just read something by a semi-neglected homeschooled teen that made me really sad, and I'm also listening to Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover.  It got to the point that her dad actively interfered with his kids learning anything remotely academic.

 

How would YOU define educational neglect in the homeschool setting? How common do you think it is?  Like if you had to ballpark a percentage:  More than 50%?  Less?  Just a small percentage?

 

What about social neglect? I define that as parents making no real effort to give their children frequent, regular opportunities to socialize outside the family and build friendships, as well as parents actively opposing these types of opportunities.  The opportunities might not develop into friendships, but the effort should be there, kwim? 

 

I'm discovering that this kind of thing exists in numbers greater than I'd previously thought, and it is breaking my heart.  And, honestly, I'm allowing myself to SEE it within my own homeschool circle.  Not most parents, but it's definitely there.  

 

I have seen it but I think it's exceedingly rare.  We're talking about actual neglect and not just "different than how we'd do it but they'll function in the world..."  I'd say 5%.

[Lecka]

Oh!!!!! I didn’t realize that about high schools not accepting homeschool credit. That makes sense. Maybe this parent didn’t realize that either, sigh. Big sigh.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh!!!!! I didn’t realize that about high schools not accepting homeschool credit. That makes sense. Maybe this parent didn’t realize that either, sigh. Big sigh.

 

Yes.  In many areas, including here, you have to decide to homeschool all the way through high school.  Or if you do later decide to put them into public school it will have to be back in 9th grade.  Even if they have gone through 11th grade in homeschool.  Even if they are taking rigorous classes that will make the Tiger Moms swoon.  And even if you have outside validation. 

[laundrycrisis]

Over 90%?!?  That's a bold assertion.  Would you be willing to share how you define "neglect"?

 

It's based on the sum and average of my experiences with other local homeschoolers in this zero-regulation state over the last 11 years.  I don't feel comfortable about being more specific about educational methods etc.  But I will say that my opinion has nothing to do with the level of work a kid is achieving by x age. 

 

I have a kid who has had visual processing and LD issues and puts in great effort to keep up with age typical grade level work.  Home has been the best solution for him because of how it can be adapted for him, and I believe that what he has achieved at home is surpassing what he would have achieved in public school. And I had a psych who evaluated him tell me pretty much that exactly, so I don't believe I'm tricking myself.  From the outside, he could have appeared to be a kid whose education was being neglected.  I get that, and my opinion is not based on work level. 

 

In 2013, Spy Car made some posts that were challenging and to me, helpful.  Bill, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to stick your neck out. 

 

Neglect is a hard term.  IMO educational neglect can happen even when the parent has the best intentions and doesn't see a problem.  People don't want to call it that because that lumps that parent in with the ones who are also completely neglectful as parents in general.  Basically I see it as meaning that something is not being taken care of, and its needs are not being met.  If I have a houseplant, and I don't make it enough of a priority to give it what it needs to be healthy and grow, I'm neglecting the plant.  If a child isn't enough of a priority to the adults in charge to have what he or she needs to be healthy and grow in various ways (not just physical), the child is neglected.  That can be physical, or not physical but emotional, or behavioral, etc.  When it's educational, for whatever reason, the child's education isn't enough of a priority to the adults in charge to have what is necessary for that education to be healthy and progress.  With homeschooling, there is usually a single person that this depends on to do this job.  Often that single person is not getting any feedback on their job performance from outside their own mind and immediate circle of other homeschooling parents.  I think that as homeschooling parents, we need to be in the habit of looking critically at our work and what we are doing for each of our kids.  I think it's better for them if I'm doubting myself than if I'm congratulating myself.  This way, I'm more likely to look for the problems and make efforts to fix them.  

[...................]

It's based on the sum and average of my experiences with other local homeschoolers in this zero-regulation state over the last 11 years.  I don't feel comfortable about being more specific about educational methods etc.  But I will say that my opinion has nothing to do with the level of work a kid is achieving by x age. 

 

I have a kid who has had visual processing and LD issues and puts in great effort to keep up with age typical grade level work.  Home has been the best solution for him because of how it can be adapted for him, and I believe that what he has achieved at home is surpassing what he would have achieved in public school. And I had a psych who evaluated him tell me pretty much that exactly, so I don't believe I'm tricking myself.  From the outside, he could have appeared to be a kid whose education was being neglected.  I get that, and my opinion is not based on work level. 

 

In 2013, Spy Car made some posts that were challenging and to me, helpful.  Bill, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to stick your neck out. 

 

Neglect is a hard term.  IMO educational neglect can happen even when the parent has the best intentions and doesn't see a problem.  People don't want to call it that because that lumps that parent in with the ones who are also completely neglectful as parents in general.  Basically I see it as meaning that something is not being taken care of, and its needs are not being met.  If I have a houseplant, and I don't make it enough of a priority to give it what it needs to be healthy and grow, I'm neglecting the plant.  If a child isn't enough of a priority to the adults in charge to have what he or she needs to be healthy and grow in various ways (not just physical), the child is neglected.  That can be physical, or not physical but emotional, or behavioral, etc.  When it's educational, for whatever reason, the child's education isn't enough of a priority to the adults in charge to have what is necessary for that education to be healthy and progress.  With homeschooling, there is usually a single person that this depends on to do this job.  Often that single person is not getting any feedback on their job performance from outside their own mind and immediate circle of other homeschooling parents.  I think that as homeschooling parents, we need to be in the habit of looking critically at our work and what we are doing for each of our kids.  I think it's better for them if I'm doubting myself than if I'm congratulating myself.  This way, I'm more likely to look for the problems and make efforts to fix them.  

Hm.  Maybe people looking at your LD child think you're neglecting his education because he appears more able than he is.

 

How can you look from the outside and really know that 90% of your homeschool friends are neglecting their kids' education?

 

i'm glad I'm not your IRL "friend."

 

I know that sounds harsh but it's true.  My dd has LD's that make her spelling atrocious.  We have certainly not neglected her education in any way, but if someone from the outside saw how bright, smart, and precocious she is, and then saw that she spells so poorly they could very easily jump to conclusions.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know that is the case here, but I wonder how many of the parents knee jerk-pulling their kids realize it. I'd hope the high school would tell them when they withdraw, but since you only have to send a letter here, I'd guess that doesn't necessarily happen. But it still would be on the parents to do the research rather than the school to forewarn them (unless asked directly) I guess. I spent months and months researching before we did it, but I wasn't in a place where my kid was in imminent danger or something that would cause me to make a quick reaction.

 

I do think it's unfair that the schools don't have a way to give credit to homeschool high school courses, but that's a whole other thread.

Btw- online public schools don’t recognize homeschool high school credits either. But that wouldn’t apply to kids who go from brick and mortar ps to online ps.

 

Kids who are removed and don’t do the ps online school (and aren’t registered homeschoolers) and never go back would be drop outs, I guess.

[laundrycrisis]

Hm.  Maybe people looking at your LD child think you're neglecting his education because he appears more able than he is.

 

How can you look from the outside and really know that 90% of your homeschool friends are neglecting their kids' education?

 

i'm glad I'm not your IRL "friend."

 

I know that sounds harsh but it's true.  My dd has LD's that make her spelling atrocious.  We have certainly not neglected her education in any way, but if someone from the outside saw how bright, smart, and precocious she is, and then saw that she spells so poorly they could very easily jump to conclusions.

 

 

I never said 90% of my homeschool friends.   I have had contact with a lot of homeschoolers. 

 

Also I would never assume a parent is neglectful based on their child's spelling, or any other level of work the child is doing.  I think I was clear about that. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by laundrycrisis

[maize]

However, we found that a balanced lifestyle and social activities fostered better mental health on our family.

Mental health needs are profoundly neglected in most institutional school settings.

 

They can be neglected in a homeschool as well.

 

Given the choice between better academics and better mental health I will opt for mental health every time.

[MinivanMom]

I think it is educational neglect when a student is educated to a level that is both well below their ability and well below the accepted standard of their greater community. 

 

I live in an upper-middle class community in a high-regulation state. I have not seen families where teens can't read. I have seen a lot of families where the parents are educating their kids far below the community standard.  I don't know the details of everyone's situation so those children may have challenges that I'm not aware of. And those families may be engaged in intensive interventions and therapies for those children that I'm not aware of. And many people in our community choose to homeschool to avoid the academic pressure of our local schools. I don't think it's educational neglect to only complete Alg II while superstars at the public high school complete 20+ AP classes. I do think it's educational neglect to fail to master Algebra I due to the parents not providing instruction. And I think it's social neglect when children have limited or no access to people or relationships outside their family.

 

I have known homeschooled teens who were trying to self-teach Algebra I, because their mother (who attended an elite university) had simply stopped teaching them. It's pretty hard to self-teach Algebra when you aren't allowed to go to the library or access the internet. Our local public high school would at least attempt to provide that instruction for free - complete with access to sports and fine arts and a full Latin program. But these kids stay home. They feed the chickens and play in the woods. They can read the limited number of christian biographies in their home or try to self-teach math without a teacher or internet access. That might be enough for a 7-yr-old, but I don't think it's enough for a 17-yr-old. And I really don't know what to think when the parents attended public school themselves and have degrees from elite universities.That's not ignorance. That's a conscious choice to limit your child's educational and social opportunities. I do think situations like that are educational neglect. 

[laundrycrisis]

I don’t regularly engage with homeschoolers outside the home in real life. My kids are in a cover, and it is stricter than most locally; in fact, the cover exceeds state law. I have to report days and undergo 3 records checks and submit math and writing samples. My lesson plans with daily assignments are laid bare for another mom to view. Our particular cover does such things to ensure teaching is getting done. Not all home educators want that kind of oversight.

 

Over the years, thoughtful homeschool moms have learned that my DS has SLDs, and they reach out to me with questions. Ages of the children vary from 10-17 yo, and these students cannot read or write or require some sort of testing The moms want their kids to read but are clueless about where or how to seek help. These people are fearful that the state will take their children or the spouse won’t provide the money for them to purchase the remediation materials which are often obscenely expensive. Some are deeply religious and fearful of some psych doctor scrambling with their child’s mind. I have to explain what the IQ testing is like and provide links for them to read on their own.

 

I guess I’m trying to say that ignorance and fear can look like educational neglect. Homeschooling requires moxie and determination in the face of adversity. Sometimes we get stuck in the weeds, but I would not even hazzard a guess as to a percentage of parents providing a subpar education.

 

I put in the bolding - IMO choosing not to seek help when a problem is obvious is a form of neglect, no matter the reason that happens.  

 

Hypothetical example - say that my child's teeth are rotting in his mouth, and basic brushing isn't helping.  For whatever reason, I'm afraid or reluctant to take the problem to a dentist.  So I make the choice not to get help to have the problem addressed. His teeth continue to decay, abscesses develop, and perhaps gum disease begins.  That progression of the problem due to lack of appropriate care would be the result of neglect.  

 

Say that I do get help, and we do our best, but even with good care, the problem still progresses.  That stinks, but it isn't neglect, even if it might look like it to an outsider who doesn't know the details of the situation. 

[CAJinBE]

Sorry to upset people with the Algebra 2 statement above. As was mentioned above there are many reasons why a student might not have math to this level.  I didn't mean to imply that not having math above Algebra 2 was neglect. This was just something that was said in conversation with the mom of the family indicating how she felt math was unnecessary in life and that she and her husband were doing just fine without math. These kids came to co-op without pencils, without lunch. As far as not preparing a transcript, they indicated that they weren't following any sort of basic four-year plan. They don't have books or computers. Maybe the kids are being educated in spite of all this, but that didn't appear to be the case. They passed through our area very quickly.

 

I didn't mean to sound judgmental or offend anyone. 

[8filltheheart]

I never said 90% of my homeschool friends.   I have had contact with a lot of homeschoolers. 

 

You must have to state emphatically that 90% of all homeschoolers are committing educational neglect.  I am assuming that it must be in the minimum 10s of 1000s to assume that out of approx 2,000,000 that you can claim that 1,800,000 are experiencing educational neglect.  (There isn't any emoji that would even begin to express my opinion of that claim.) 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I never said 90% of my homeschool friends.   I have had contact with a lot of homeschoolers. 

 

Also I would never assume a parent is neglectful based on their child's spelling, or any other level of work the child is doing.  I think I was clear about that. 

 

Many of us have had a lot of contact with a lot of homeschoolers.  I would venture a very strong guess that you do not live in my area.  As I said in my first post in this thread, I do believe that there are some regional differences when it comes to this.  Surely you recognize that your experience is not definitive for all homeschoolers even in the same country?  I'm assuming that you live in the US and it is a very large country with different states with different homeschool laws and procedures for enforcement. 

[laundrycrisis]

You must have to state emphatically that 90% of all homeschoolers are committing educational neglect.  I am assuming that it must be in the minimum 10s of 1000s to assume that out of approx 2,000,000 that you can claim that 1,800,000 are experiencing educational neglect.  (There isn't any emoji that would even begin to express my opinion of that claim.) 

 

I bolded that. 

 

How would YOU define educational neglect in the homeschool setting? How common do you think it is?  Like if you had to ballpark a percentage:  More than 50%?  Less?  Just a small percentage?

 

 

I'm not emphatically stating anything.  The OP asked for a ballpark, and that's mine.  Also, my ballpark isn't based on all homeschoolers.  It's very local, and it's based on people I've personally had contact with through a variety of homeschool-specific activities over the 11 years that have passed since I first attended something and started talking to people.  It was also asked how we personally define neglect.  I've attempted to demonstrate how I define it through the hypothetical examples in my previous posts here.  Others will have different definitions.  My impression of homeschooling in my state is not very good.  

 

I'm not personally attacking anyone, and I wouldn't.  I'm great at minding my own business.  (I've been doing it for 11 years.) The question was asked here, and I threw my answer in. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by laundrycrisis

[Jean in Newcastle]

I bolded that. 

 

 

I'm not emphatically stating anything.  The OP asked for a ballpark, and that's mine.  Also, my ballpark isn't based on all homeschoolers.  It's very local, and it's based on people I've personally had contact with through a variety of homeschool-specific activities over the 11 years that have passed since I first attended something and started talking to people.  It was also asked how we define personally define neglect.  I've attempted to demonstrate how I define it through the hypothetical examples in my previous posts here.  Others will have different definitions.  My impression of homeschooling in my state is not very good.  

 

I'm not personally attacking anyone, and I wouldn't.  I'm great at minding my own business.  The question was asked here, and I threw my answer in. 

 

Perhaps next time you could put in the qualifier "in my area". 

[KungFuPanda]

I think it’s going to get worse. I had an online exchange on a local board. The woman wanted to homeschool and asked how to get started. I suggested hitting the library, reading some books, then once she’d formed a philosophy/style it would be easier to choose curriculum and ask questions. Her response? “That sounds exhausting. Can’t I use your philosophy?†😧 I told her it wasn’t nearly as exhausting as homeschooling. Oh the people who jumped in to assure her that it really was easy. No it’s not! It is for a few years, but if you’re not prepared to increase the workload and think your 8th grader can get by on two hours of school a day you are delusional. You’d have to live in a pretty lackluster school district to keep up with local standards this way.

 

Don’t get me started on the people who never really prioritize school and only really get around to it more than once or twice a week. Or the people who are “teaching their kids to self educate†and park an 8-year-old in front of a computer to fend for himself. Little kids deserve a teacher. Making the decision to do this then putting ALL of the work and responsibility on an elementary-aged child is ridiculous. I know there are outliers where the child truly learns best this way, but in general it’s lazy, inneffectual, and the kid would learn more in school.

 

I really don’t see much outright neglect, just a lot of busy, inconsistent moms whose kids would successfully go further in most subjects if they attended local schools. Their estimates for how much time is wasted in school seem artificially high to justify a 90 minute school day for their 10th grader. I don’t doubt there are districts where their kid would be ahead with this pace, but this isn’t one of of them.

 

ETA: sorry for the long rant. I’m on a long, boring car trip.

Edited February 24, 2018 by KungFuPanda

[Jean in Newcastle]

I bolded that. 

 

 

I'm not emphatically stating anything.  The OP asked for a ballpark, and that's mine.  Also, my ballpark isn't based on all homeschoolers.  It's very local, and it's based on people I've personally had contact with through a variety of homeschool-specific activities over the 11 years that have passed since I first attended something and started talking to people.  It was also asked how we define personally define neglect.  I've attempted to demonstrate how I define it through the hypothetical examples in my previous posts here.  Others will have different definitions.  My impression of homeschooling in my state is not very good.  

 

I'm not personally attacking anyone, and I wouldn't.  I'm great at minding my own business.  (I've been doing it for 11 years.) The question was asked here, and I threw my answer in. 

 

I'm curious though based on other threads on this same topic.  Does your state in general have good education?  ( I know the state rankings of public education can vary widely).  Is there a religious sect component to this trend in your area?  Is there an otherwise philosophical component (like Sandra Dodd type radical unschooling)?  Is there a general community culture of education? 

[laundrycrisis]

Perhaps next time you could put in the qualifier "in my area". 

 

How could any of us come up with a ballpark from anything other than our own experiences ?  I assume that most personal ballpark estimates are going to be based on someone's own personal experiences with other homeschoolers in their area.  

[Crimson Wife]

Actually, I'm sure she DOES have dyslexia.  I was telling the mom that years ago (along with where to get low-cost testing, and how she should really address this asap, blah, blah, blah).  She's currently getting her child tutoring services through the public school system, but it took literally YEARS for her to get to that place where she was willing to do it.  It did not help to have homeschooling/unschooling mamas telling her "She'll read when she's ready."  Um, the child is 10 and hasn't mastered the alphabet.  Y'all need to just be quiet.  Making this mom feel better at the moment is not going to help her child over the long-term.    If I sound frustrated, it's because I am.  We need to be helping each other, not enabling denial.

 

Bingo. Not all kids are going to be fluent readers by 10 (I've got one who very well may not be) but for Pete's sake DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!

[Jean in Newcastle]

How could any of us come up with a ballpark from anything other than our own experiences ?  I assume that most personal ballpark estimates are going to be based on someone's own personal experiences with other homeschoolers in their area.  

 

Do you really not understand the difference between the sentences:

 

"90% of homeschoolers are committing educational neglect"

 

and

 

"90% of homeschoolers in my area are committing educational neglect"  ?

 

:svengo:

[KungFuPanda]

Do you really not understand the difference between the sentences:

 

"90% of homeschoolers are committing educational neglect"

 

and

 

"90% of homeschoolers in my area are committing educational neglect" ?

 

:svengo:

It wouldn’t occur to me to think she was speaking about the whole country unless she specifically listed living and homeschooling in lots of places.

[8filltheheart]

How would YOU define educational neglect in the homeschool setting? How common do you think it is?  Like if you had to ballpark a percentage:  More than 50%?  Less?  Just a small percentage?

 

What about social neglect? 

 

 

I have become more and more skeptical of homeschooling as the years have passed (and I am still homeschooling). I think the educational neglect is over 90%. I think the social neglect is lower in areas with a lot of homeschool social activities available. And I think that participating in too many of the social activities contributes to the educational neglect, and the tendency for the parents to not realize it’s a problem. They get an echo chamber going.

 

The OP was not asking about small communities, but in general.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart