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How Common is Educational Neglect Among Homeschoolers?


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I just read something by a semi-neglected homeschooled teen that made me really sad, and I'm also listening to Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover.  It got to the point that her dad actively interfered with his kids learning anything remotely academic.

 

How would YOU define educational neglect in the homeschool setting? How common do you think it is?  Like if you had to ballpark a percentage:  More than 50%?  Less?  Just a small percentage?

 

What about social neglect? I define that as parents making no real effort to give their children frequent, regular opportunities to socialize outside the family and build friendships, as well as parents actively opposing these types of opportunities.  The opportunities might not develop into friendships, but the effort should be there, kwim? 

 

I'm discovering that this kind of thing exists in numbers greater than I'd previously thought, and it is breaking my heart.  And, honestly, I'm allowing myself to SEE it within my own homeschool circle.  Not most parents, but it's definitely there.  

 

 

 

 

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All homeschoolers I know try very hard to educate their children.   I don't think educational neglect is very high among homeschoolers, certainly not any more than educational neglect in our public schools.  

 

The socialization thing is harder.  I'm not one who believes that socialization is as important as others do.  I do think every child should have the option to participate in an outside activity, as long as the parents can afford it.  Sometimes that is not possible -- sometimes parents use every resource they have just to buy basic needs. Sometimes people live in neighborhoods without other families, or without children around the same age as theirs.

 

My husband went to a public school, but said he had no friends.  There were no kids around his age in his neighborhood, either.  He participated in no extracurricular activities, and yet I consider him quite normal.  :-).    

Edited by Serenade
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I feel like we discuss this a lot.  Hopefully folks will post links.

 

Where I live (in the Northeast), I know of no one who is educationally neglecting their dc.  I am part of a couple of homeschool groups and do interact with a number of homeschool families.  I am in a high oversight state which does discourage a lot of folks from homeschooling.

 

I only know one family who I thought should have gotten their dc out more. Staying home was based on anxiety issues of one of the dc and the parent did not agree with those who said that avoidance would make it worse.  Dc are in college right now and doing fine (still living at home).

 

I know of a few families who I believe are not addressing some LDs.  However, one of the families dc is in college now and doing fine, so maybe their approach was correct.  When I taught, I also knew families who were in denial about LDs and wouldn't agree to testing.  I'm not sure it's a higher percentage of homeschoolers doing it and the homeschooling children are in a good situation for individualized learning that can support their progress. 

 

So, I wouldn't say either of your concerns are a high problem where I am.  I am active in 2 states worth of groups in a well-educated, ethnically diverse, mixed income area.

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True educational neglect? I have never witnessed it in my 20+ yrs of homeschooling in 5 different states. Educations where I think the parents could do a better job? Lots. BUT, in comparison to what local schools were producing in the exact same areas....on par with avg high school outcomes. So, my perception is skewed. I think the kids were capable of achieving more, but that doesn't mean that what the parents were doing was anything even close to educational neglect.

 

(Is a student who is capable of surpassing AP cal BC being educationally neglected if Saxon Advanced Math is their highest level of math? Obviously not. Similarly, I have lived in areas where alg 2 is the highest level of math offered to the vast majority of ps students. They don't realize that that is not normal bc it is normal for the area. I have learned to temper my views overtime bc what seems subpar standards to me are actually normal to high outcomes to them.) I personally know way too many ps grads whose 15 ACT score was considered normal. That is atrocious! So now I am way more temperant of my views of homeschoolers than I used to be.)

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I tend to think this is a middle class concern. I live in both middle class circles and in poor, low-income, or working class circles. In the middle class circles, there is a LOT of anxiety about possible neglect and criticism of parents, conventional and homeschooling alike. In my other world, as long as parents trust the experts, the parents are deemed released from responsibility for the outcome. The end result is that I know a few adults who were homeschooled and who are fully literate and successfully run their own businesses, yet complain their education was neglected. And I know many more adults from low-income backgrounds who can't read above a third grade level and were either severely bullied, sucked into violent street gangs, or ended up in prison, and they don't consider their education to have been neglected. It was handled by experts, after all. I think expectations are based on social class, and homeschooling opens parents up to scrutiny that wouldn't ordinarily be applied if they just passed responsibility to the "experts." I am not saying that a lot of homeschool parents can't or shouldn't do better, but I think we should really think about how we define "neglect." As a side note, I currently know dozens of homeschooling families in my local area well enough to know that not a single one is neglecting their children socially or academically in any way. Not saying neglectful homeschool families don't exist, but I don't believe they are common, at all.

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Overall homeschoolers? A small percentage.

 

"Unschoolers"? About 50%. About half of the "unschoolers" I've encountered work diligently to create an environment conducive to learning and "strew" materials that they hope their child will decide to pick up. They frequently take their children on educational field trips and work to facilitate self-directed learning projects. Their kids turn out fine.

 

The other half are using "unschooling" as cover for educational neglect.

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Among homeschoolers?  A small percentage.  The only family I knew personally who seemed to have a degree of educational neglect (but was still a stable and loving family) all turned out great.  They all went on to college or tech schools and got good jobs.

 

Of course the ones who have real educational neglect and for sure social neglect are probably not involved in any homeschool groups, so we wouldn't really know.  But I still guess that it's small.

 

Now, I also think the percentage among public schoolers is higher -- as far as how much the parents are involved.  But they let the schools take over completely.

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We have this discussion every three months or so. I have come to the conclusion that it is regional. In this highly educated region I have not seen it and have only heard of it one family. And that was a family where it later came out that there was sexual abuse and other extreme dysfunction.

 

But every one I know is home educating for academic reasons. And I don’t know anyone who is homeschooling as the result of any extreme ideology. Even the ATI people around here ( who keep to themselves so I don’t actually know them personally) still participate in yearly academic testing. And the unschoolers I know live in educationally rich environments.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I know a lot of homeschoolers in my area. Out of those families I can think of only 3 families that I felt were educationally neglected. One realized they weren't doing a good job and placed them in public school. The other family declares itself unschooling but has an 8th grader who is barely writing and learned to read fluently only a year or so ago. Mom says no learning disabilities...just that she will get it when she gets it. The last family is now working with a charter. They have many kids and life just got away from them. I don't think they intentionally neglected their education. They are trying to catch them up and do better now.

 

I also know about the same number of families with public school educated children who are also very behind.

 

I think most people who homeschool are doing it to give their kids a good education. Some of those may have slightly different educational values than I do..like they may not see college as important so they may not do much past basics. I live in a farming community, so I see this often. I see it in our local school as well. They don't provide very many upper level classes. Partly because of the size of the school, partly because many people wouldn't find it necessary for their children to take a class like calculus.

 

I don't know any socially neglected kids because the way i am meeting up with these families is through activities and social events.

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I think that to the extent educational neglect is happening in the homeschool community, it’s more hidden. These aren’t primarily kids at co-ops and park days. If parents aren’t making any effort, they don’t go to co-ops and park days. So when people talk about what they see in their homeschool communities, they aren’t going to be seeing these kids, because these kids often aren’t part of the community.

 

I’ve never seen anything I would label as educational neglect within my homeschooling circles. I may not agree with everyone’s choices, but they weren’t neglect.

 

Where I did see this was when I worked for CPS. That was in a no regulation state, and it was not uncommon for parents to withdraw their kids “to homeschool†when they were under threat of educational neglect charges for truancy issues. There was no intent or effort to homeschool, it was simply a way to avoid trouble. Sometimes he kids were re-enrolled the next year, sometimes the cycle of truancy and withdrawing to homeschool would repeat, and sometimes the kids would never be re-enrolled.

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I don't see true educational neglect. I agree with posters that say the kids that are being neglected are often not ones out and about. They are also likely to be people that are "homeschooling" but doing so to cover up other issues of abuse. 

 

I do know kids that, in my opinion, are not being educated properly. I have a friend who has a child that is simply stalled. The parents are not treating the child's disabilities in any real way and instead fly from one curricula to another. Then they complain when the kid doesn't make any progress. 

 

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 I think we tend to surround ourselves with like-minded people, so I guess it's no surprise that most of us can't pinpoint any instances within our realm of influence.  I'm in a position to meet, at least casually, a lot of homeschool families, and I'm starting to identify it where I would have just glossed over it before.  These families are definitely in the minority.  I doubt that any of what I've seen rises to the legal definition of educational neglect (is there even a standard legal definition?)  

 

Let's start with something controversial (that shouldn't be): YES, you have to make an effort to get your poor kids out of the house on a regular basis for fun and friends or they'll grow up lonely and not know how to socialize with similar-aged peers, and this will HURT them emotionally if nothing else. Groups, classes, etc. won't always work out, but at least you can say you tried.  Stop saying that "well, in the real world you're around people of all ages." Yes, but in the real KID world, it's really awesome and healthy and positive to be around other people who like the same stuff you do.

 

NO, the baby can't be the lesson every stinking year.  If a "taking a break" has become the new normal, then it's no longer a break, is it? Get yourself together, find something easy to implement and get going.

 

NO, not all (or even most) kids will teach themselves to read/do math "when they're ready."  Some kids actually need regular instruction in these skills.  Crazy, right?  Plus, that's just a lot of pressure.  What if your kid isn't cut out to be an auto-didact?  Is he just screwed?  And if your 12 year old "just isn't ready to read yet," do something.   Oh, and by the way, that semi-mythical unschooled kid who worked through all the Saxon levels in a year, because he wanted to go to college (depending on the re-telling he probably scored super high on the SAT/ACT, too)?  Not at all indicative of what typical kids can accomplish.  Stop holding up prodigies as if they're the norm.

 

And you know what sucks?  There's nothing I personally can do about any of it.  Maybe it's just the area I live in.  This is purposeless ranting.  I'm just cranky and cynical today.  

 

 

 

Edited by shinyhappypeople
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NO, not all (or even most) kids will teach themselves to read/do math "when they're ready."  Some kids actually need regular instruction in these skills.  Crazy, right?  Plus, that's just a lot of pressure.  What if your kid isn't cut out to be an auto-didact?  Is he just screwed?  And if your 12 year old "just isn't ready to read yet," do something.   Oh, and by the way, that semi-mythical unschooled kid who worked through all the Saxon levels in a year, because he wanted to go to college (depending on the re-telling he probably scored super high on the SAT/ACT, too)?  Not at all indicative of what typical kids can accomplish.  Stop holding up prodigies as if they're the norm.

 

That kid isn't mythical (I've met some) but I agree that they are NOT the norm. Ditto for the "kid just decided one day at 10+ to learn to read and was reading Harry Potter within weeks". And those childrens' parents fell into the category of "working hard to create an environment conducive to learning" rather than being totally laissez-faire.

 

"Unschooling" can work well IF the child is bright with no LD's AND the parents make serious efforts to foster a good learning environment. Unfortunately too often it translates into "no schooling" by lazy and neglectful parents.

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So this is a rant in disguise?  Many of us are around a lot of homeschoolers and still haven't come across a lot of this. 

 

Well, the original question is completely sincere.  The last post I made is a rant, but not in disguise at all.

 

The more I listen to the stories of adult homeschoolers who fell through the cracks, and who are in pain today as a result, the more frustrated I get.   And then to think through the homeschool families I know and see some of them with these really significant problems, and have to sit by and do nothing, because there's nothing to be done... yeah, it upsets me. 

 

I realize public schoolers fall through the cracks, too.  But PS isn't my world; homeschool is.

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In a low-reg state, a lot more from what I've seen.  Parents pull their kids or choose not to enroll them, and there is more a tendency to be.....relaxed about schoolwork.  Not unschoolers, but lack-of-schoolers.  I had a parent get miffed at me when I gently suggested that 15 minutes of worksheets may not be enough for a freshman boy to be completing each day.

 

Here is a high reg state.  Even the ones who are relaxed still do school every day and put effort into it.

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I think that to the extent educational neglect is happening in the homeschool community, it’s more hidden. These aren’t primarily kids at co-ops and park days. If parents aren’t making any effort, they don’t go to co-ops and park days. So when people talk about what they see in their homeschool communities, they aren’t going to be seeing these kids, because these kids often aren’t part of the community.

 

I’ve never seen anything I would label as educational neglect within my homeschooling circles. I may not agree with everyone’s choices, but they weren’t neglect.

 

Where I did see this was when I worked for CPS. That was in a no regulation state, and it was not uncommon for parents to withdraw their kids “to homeschool†when they were under threat of educational neglect charges for truancy issues. There was no intent or effort to homeschool, it was simply a way to avoid trouble. Sometimes he kids were re-enrolled the next year, sometimes the cycle of truancy and withdrawing to homeschool would repeat, and sometimes the kids would never be re-enrolled.

 

This mirrors my experience.  

 

I haven't seen anything even approaching educational neglect withing my own social group of homeschoolers.

 

I do run into what appears like educational neglect at work (emergency department).  These are kids presenting with behavioural issues and family dysfunction bad enough to land them in an emergency department.  They've been pulled from school to "homeschool" because of conflict between the family and the school, usually related to profound behaviour problems in school.   The parents tend to be overwhelmed with their own issues, the child's behaviour problems don't get any better simply by being home, and schooling at home doesn't happen.  These families are not participating in homeschool groups, and aren't really part of any homeschool community so they are invisible to other homeschoolers.

Edited by wathe
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I've seen no cases of educational or social neglect among the homeschoolers in my (relatively affluent, well-educated) community. Really, if anything's being neglected, it's parental self-care as parents devote so much energy and sacrifice their own time and interests to doing what is best for their children.

 

However, your rant doesn't sound crazy to me. You care about kids! For what may seem like a slight digression but will hopefully make sense--

 

I found that as soon as I realized my kids and I had no interest in public schools, I stopped taking part in conversations bashing public schools. I simply am not well-informed enough to speak knowledgeably about the problems of our local schools or potential solutions, although I'm passionate about education in general. I've opted out. And if I were now part of a community that I saw as having serious educational and social deficiencies, I'd want to talk about that and work on that.

 

I'm not, though, so (as with the public schools) I feel anything I will say is just ill-informed. But I know this is an important conversation in some homeschool communities, and perhaps one reason some of us respond defensively is for the same reason someone with a successful child in a great public school might respond defensively if we say, "Isn't it horrible that so many kids are graduating from high school without being able to identify the Pacific Ocean on a map? And aren't all those stories about teachers molesting their students horrible?"

 

I actually don't know if any of this makes sense, but I think if there's any place to voice your concerns about what's happening in a specific place among a certain group of people, it's that place and that group of people. And maybe we're the people, but since we're on this particular forum, it is not a place where a lot of people who even live in the vicinity of educational or social neglect hang out. (I think. It seems.)

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I've seen no cases of educational or social neglect among the homeschoolers in my (relatively affluent, well-educated) community. Really, if anything's being neglected, it's parental self-care as parents devote so much energy and sacrifice their own time and interests to doing what is best for their children.

 

However, your rant doesn't sound crazy to me. You care about kids! For what may seem like a slight digression but will hopefully make sense--

 

I found that as soon as I realized my kids and I had no interest in public schools, I stopped taking part in conversations bashing public schools. I simply am not well-informed enough to speak knowledgeably about the problems of our local schools or potential solutions, although I'm passionate about education in general. I've opted out. And if I were now part of a community that I saw as having serious educational and social deficiencies, I'd want to talk about that and work on that.

 

I'm not, though, so (as with the public schools) I feel anything I will say is just ill-informed. But I know this is an important conversation in some homeschool communities, and perhaps one reason some of us respond defensively is for the same reason someone with a successful child in a great public school might respond defensively if we say, "Isn't it horrible that so many kids are graduating from high school without being able to identify the Pacific Ocean on a map? And aren't all those stories about teachers molesting their students horrible?"

 

I actually don't know if any of this makes sense, but I think if there's any place to voice your concerns about what's happening in a specific place among a certain group of people, it's that place and that group of people. And maybe we're the people, but since we're on this particular forum, it is not a place where a lot of people who even live in the vicinity of educational or social neglect hang out. (I think. It seems.)

 

In the umpteen other threads on this topic we have discussed some of the wider cultural dynamics that can lead to neglect.  But not all of us live in areas with those wider cultural dynamics.  I really don't think that you can discuss it as "educational neglect among homeschoolers" as if homeschoolers are some monolithic group that has all the same values and cultural distinctions.  In fact, I think that it is harder to discuss homeschoolers in that way than even public schoolers because homeschooling can be more diverse and is more influenced by the family culture.  I'm not being defensive about this.  I do value an educated populace and value keeping homeschooling as an educationally viable option that is not code for neglect.  But the question is "how common is it" and the answer is simply that in some communities it isn't common at all, and in others, according to the anecdotal evidence of people on this board, it is very common.

 

Some good questions can arise out of this:  Are there specifics about the areas where education is more valued that can be transferred to areas where it is less valued?  Is it simply a matter of values?  Are there underlying aspects of parental education (presumably as a result of their own public school experience) that make it harder for parents in some locales to educate their offspring?  Are there laws or oversights that are reasonable and helpful and don't put undue burdens on those who are doing it "right"?  Where is the line between a family's autonomy and society's interest in an education citizenry?  Is there a way to catch those who don't school at all and charge them with truancy or educational neglect so that there is some teeth to the laws requiring the education of minors? 

 

Many of us who live in what I would call medium reg. states like the regulations we have and don't find them a burden.  But as others have pointed out over and over again, a family who doesn't care about the law is going to ignore regulations no matter what. 

 

Another aspect to this discussion is the role of homeschoolers in "policing" others.  I think that we can influence others but there is a lot of information we often do not know about what goes on in someone else's homeschool.  We only know if there are LDs or other issues if someone has pursued some sort of evaluation and if they decide to confide in us.  We can't always tell if a child's griping about not knowing something is legitimate.  (I'm thinking of the times my own kids have said that they had never learned something when we had just spent months on it!  And often they seem to have forgotten all of it one moment and then wow us the next.)  We don't always know if a mom who is griping about "never getting to school" is using hyperbole or not.  (I've been guilty of saying that we just aren't progressing but then if I list all that we've done, we've done quite a bit.)  I do agree that homeschoolers can fall into bad patterns and there is a place for encouraging others to treat homeschooling as a job (I do) or to think about putting their kids into public school.  But I think that we need to proceed with caution when making ourselves the judge of someone else's homeschooling journey. 

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I've been a homeschool portfolio assessor in my state for close to 20 years. I have personally witnesssd way too much educational neglect, especially for kids with learning disabilities. The parents don't know what to do about them and don't want the "system" involved, so they do nothing.

I have stopped assessing because I am overwhelmed and disgusted by it all. I can't turn a blind eye and sign the stupid forms anymore.

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I have become more and more skeptical of homeschooling as the years have passed (and I am still homeschooling). I think the educational neglect is over 90%. I think the social neglect is lower in areas with a lot of homeschool social activities available. And I think that participating in too many of the social activities contributes to the educational neglect, and the tendency for the parents to not realize it’s a problem. They get an echo chamber going.

Edited by laundrycrisis
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I'm not seeing neglect in my area and all the homeschoolers I know are very socialized. I know one family who struggles to discipline her children appropriately and this leads to them refusing to work a lot of the time. This is the most "neglectful" family I am aware of and the kids are still getting some work done and attending co-op classes.

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I've been a homeschool portfolio assessor in my state for close to 20 years. I have personally witnesssd way too much educational neglect, especially for kids with learning disabilities. The parents don't know what to do about them and don't want the "system" involved, so they do nothing.

I have stopped assessing because I am overwhelmed and disgusted by it all. I can't turn a blind eye and sign the stupid forms anymore.

Can I ask a question? Why did you have to turn a blind eye? Isn’t the whole point of having an assessor dependent on the assessor giving an honest assessment? Are there no guidelines for the assessors?

 

Our state does allow for a portfolio review but I have always done the academic testing option in our state. The academic testing has rules and guidelines so I assumed that the portfolio review would as well.

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From what I've seen of the reviews of that book, she wasn't just educationally neglected but also abused. The neglect was the least of her problems, I mean.

 

Which doesn't answer your question. I'd guess that the percentage of homeschoolers who educationally neglect their kids is somewhat higher than any of us knows or wants to admit. It's not like those parents are going around boasting about it, after all.

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The homeschoolers I know are all actively trying to educate their children.

 

I think the truly neglectful and abusive ones are not hanging out at homeschool groups and classes and co-ops so how would I know them?

 

As for what education looks like...well, ours looks like unschooling a lot of the time.

 

I'm working my rear end off to meet the needs of my kids as best I perceive them, but hours of sit down school work does not meet my perception of their needs.

 

I'm listening to SWB's recent Seattle talk on rethinking school and cheering!

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I have not come across any families who are guilty of educational neglect. The families in our IRL homeschool circle are all giving their kids an education - albeit with very different philosophies and methods, and according to very different standards. Yes, most remain below the academic level of the high school education their kids could receive at the local public high school, but not because they are neglectful; it is usually because they are choosing substandard materials and have low academic expectations since they don't know better. Most of the homeschooled kids I know IRL have not received any foreign language instruction and are seriously behind in math compared to same age peers of comparable intelligence. But they are all being educated, usually with a strong language arts and social science focus. 

 

 

Edited by regentrude
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It's hard to define educational neglect unless you define education. You can use state standards but if that is what education means then many homeschoolers would be under neglect. You could say teaching all 4 subjects (math, language arts, science and history) yearly which would mean anyone who is unschooly would fall under the neglect catagory. Just because someone doesn't school the way you do or follow state standards doesn't mean they are neglecting their children. Ultimately though I think maybe you are talking about children graduating high school via homeschool and not being college or trade school ready? I have thought a lot about all of the various homeschool methods (unit studies, charlotte mason, neo-classical etc) and how they don't align with traditional school and at some point in the childs life it could be detrimental to them when entering college. Ironically many of these idea's at one point were implimented in the public schools but since they've fallen out of favor they not longer align with the current public school model. 

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Educating not very well/haphazard/ not particularly well planned because of being busy with life/family issues, type C mom and dogmatic dad or disorganization or too many kids- ? Probably 30-40% - kids could’ve achieved much more and had an easier time in adulthood, working for much less pay than they would, going to college longer to take remedial classes, if they had had more committed parents. It’s sad but maybe they would’ve been worse off in school, who knows.

 

True educational neglect? Where the kids really just play and watch tv and then get addicted to video games, tv, food, and literally cannot function as adults? I’ve never seen that, personally.

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And you know what? A public school educated, state university graduated person married into my family recently asked his wife, a close member of my family from whom I got this antecdote, " Which side won the Civil War?" when she brought up something related to it.  And this is a professional man with a good career, not a dummy at all. He just had no grasp of history whatsoever, after all of those years in school. 

 

So, I think even those hsers who *we* perceive could be doing a better job are probably doing just fine compared to the masses.  :)  

Edited by 2_girls_mommy
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Yes, most remain below the academic level of the high school education their kids could receive at the local public high school, but not because they are neglectful; it is usually because they are choosing substandard materials and have low academic expectations since they don't know better.

 

I don't think intent is what matters. If there is a particular standard their kids ought to be achieving all around, and they're not achieving it because their parents aren't educating them to that standard, then the results add up to "neglect".

 

I mean, one of our dogs was neglected. We're the ones who brought him to the shelter, and then we adopted him from that same shelter four days later, gambling that the same people who starved him and kept "losing" him were never going to trouble themselves to go down to Arthur Kill and pick him up again. Now I know from talking to those people (being screamed at...) that they thought they were feeding him enough, and that his care was adequate, and we're mean judgmental dog thieves. But it wasn't, and we're not, and it was neglect.

 

My kid's best friend missed 55 days of school last year. Her mother believes she's taking good care of her daughter. She's not. You want to talk educational neglect, there it is. She's a smart kid, and she is failing because she's not in school. That's neglect, whatever her mother thinks on the subject, and ACS must agree with me because they're certainly involved. Her mother doesn't intend to neglect her daughter, and I have great sympathy for the family because I know what issues are causing this situation, but intent isn't magic. There's a certain minimum standard of care you're supposed to meet when you have kids, and if you can't hit it, or anyway don't hit it, then that's neglect.

 

Edit: On the plus side, if this is caused by well-meaning parents not having enough information to decide on a good path, then it can be solved by giving them more information. Some cases of neglect, of any sort, are really easy to fix. Some are... not.

 

Edited by Tanaqui
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I just read something by a semi-neglected homeschooled teen that made me really sad, and I'm also listening to Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover. It got to the point that her dad actively interfered with his kids learning anything remotely academic.

 

How would YOU define educational neglect in the homeschool setting? How common do you think it is? Like if you had to ballpark a percentage: More than 50%? Less? Just a small percentage?

 

What about social neglect? I define that as parents making no real effort to give their children frequent, regular opportunities to socialize outside the family and build friendships, as well as parents actively opposing these types of opportunities. The opportunities might not develop into friendships, but the effort should be there, kwim?

 

I'm discovering that this kind of thing exists in numbers greater than I'd previously thought, and it is breaking my heart. And, honestly, I'm allowing myself to SEE it within my own homeschool circle. Not most parents, but it's definitely there.

Are you sure the child didn’t have a learning disability? I’m sure people could question my situation and suggest I was neglecting my son, but in reality I know he’s doing better than he would be in public school.

 

I do know a family who unschools, and her kids have LDs. They do not read well and likely never will. I don’t know for sure that I would call it neglect. They learn life skills they wouldn’t ordinarily learn in PS and since none of them are likely destined for college anyway, I think it may be more valuable in the long run.

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If there is a particular standard their kids ought to be achieving all around, and they're not achieving it because their parents aren't educating them to that standard, then the results add up to "neglect".

 

 

What is the standard kids ought to be achieving? If I go by state standards then first off none of my curriculum is on the california approved list, secondly I have never followed the science and history guidelines - I'm sure at some point we touch on most everything, but does that equal neglect? How many people have not followed the exact state guidelines. I'm guessing very few homeschoolers follow the science and history standards. Most people do interest led in those areas. I think ultimately what people on here are talking about is not educational neglect, since truthfully we haven't even defined what we mean by education, but generally parental neglect. A parent whose child is being pulled out of school for missing to many days and then calls it homeschool has some serious issues going on. There is a general neglect or even abuse in a situation like that. In the case recently here in California they said the children did have some schooling, the main problem was the physical and mental abuse. The question then would be how many homeschoolers are abusing there children or neglecting them to some degree. I don't personally know of any and hopefully if anyone knew of any children being abused they would report the situation to the police rather than debate it on a forum. 

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The Common Core is one standard for neurotypical kids. :shrug: Obviously not achieving that could not be described as educational neglect, but I'd say if you aren't working to help children achieve that for at least 6 hours a day in some way that has been shown by someone somewhere to really work with more than one kid, then that's a level of neglect.

 

I don't know anyone who suffered from educational neglect at the hands of a homeschooling parent, but I have seen websites about it, where many people gathered to share similarly traumatic stories. It was scary, especially because those were the ones who got out.

 

I think not knowing better is no excuse. Some people are very stupid and actively ignore warnings from others. One thread on here comes to mind. The woman was slow, didn't do well in school, had very low energy, the child in question appeared to need services or at least would benefit from them, but the mom wanted to homeschool out of vague fears. The homeschool mom talking to her suggested lightly that perhaps they'd need more services. They weren't interested.

 

If that family went for HS over PS and the child were failing, I'd say there was some culpability there. That said, I don't think it's a reason to take kids away. That would have to be severe emotional abuse or physical abuse.

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If that family went for HS over PS and the child were failing, I'd say there was some culpability there. That said, I don't think it's a reason to take kids away. That would have to be severe emotional abuse or physical abuse.

 

I do tend to agree. Neglect cases, no matter what the neglect is, are usually best solved through helping the family so they can take care of the child properly. Removal is traumatic, even in an abusive situation, and shouldn't be done lightly.

(Of course, next case I hear about a kid dying I'll be all "rar, why didn't they take that kid away at the first hint of abuse" so, yeah.)

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It's hard to define educational neglect unless you define education. You can use state standards but if that is what education means then many homeschoolers would be under neglect. You could say teaching all 4 subjects (math, language arts, science and history) yearly which would mean anyone who is unschooly would fall under the neglect catagory. Just because someone doesn't school the way you do or follow state standards doesn't mean they are neglecting their children. Ultimately though I think maybe you are talking about children graduating high school via homeschool and not being college or trade school ready? I have thought a lot about all of the various homeschool methods (unit studies, charlotte mason, neo-classical etc) and how they don't align with traditional school and at some point in the childs life it could be detrimental to them when entering college. Ironically many of these idea's at one point were implimented in the public schools but since they've fallen out of favor they not longer align with the current public school model. 

 

Ha - I'm not sure what I'm talking about, to be honest.  It's just on my mind, you know?  I don't even know a good definition of educational neglect.  Maybe just not trying at all.  The teaching parent has given up.  In the book I mentioned, that's what happened.  Every situation I mentioned in my second post are situations I've witnessed in person.  These parents are good people and love their children, but for some reason, the school part of homeschool just isn't happening for most or all of a school year ... year after year... (and no, they're not unschoolers)  or they're facing real barriers to getting out of the house or need the denial because acknowledging severe dyslexia would feel overwhelming... and I see their kids hurting - even though that's totally NOT what the parents intended -  and it's just... it sucks.  

 

And, you know what else?  I'm not some super-awesome homeschool mom.  I'm pretty average, stuff gets done on a fairly regular basis, but really none of it is blog-worthy.  Maybe that average looks sub-par or neglectful to outsiders because it's not enough of the right kinds of stuff.  It's not rigorous enough or whatever.

 

And then, I read stories of adult homeschoolers who are hurting (which scares me to death, because what if my own children feel that way as adults??) so I come and ask "how common IS true neglect?"  Somewhere in this wordy post was the answer to "what I'm talking about."  Maybe.  

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Are you sure the child didn’t have a learning disability? I’m sure people could question my situation and suggest I was neglecting my son, but in reality I know he’s doing better than he would be in public school.

 

I do know a family who unschools, and her kids have LDs. They do not read well and likely never will. I don’t know for sure that I would call it neglect. They learn life skills they wouldn’t ordinarily learn in PS and since none of them are likely destined for college anyway, I think it may be more valuable in the long run.

 

Actually, I'm sure she DOES have dyslexia.  I was telling the mom that years ago (along with where to get low-cost testing, and how she should really address this asap, blah, blah, blah).  She's currently getting her child tutoring services through the public school system, but it took literally YEARS for her to get to that place where she was willing to do it.  It did not help to have homeschooling/unschooling mamas telling her "She'll read when she's ready."  Um, the child is 10 and hasn't mastered the alphabet.  Y'all need to just be quiet.  Making this mom feel better at the moment is not going to help her child over the long-term.    If I sound frustrated, it's because I am.  We need to be helping each other, not enabling denial.

 

I do get what you're saying though.  I have a kid with learning disabilities and I can only imagine what people who don't know us must think of her poor neglected education.

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I would consider a neurotypical child with no learning disabilities and no mental illness who isn’t able to pass the CHSPE (ETA: by 18 years old) as a form of educational neglect. CHSPE only test English and Math so it’s not as many subjects as the requirements for a public school kid to earn a high school diploma. A friend’s child is bipolar and has anxiety and possibly depression. She did meet the minimum requirements to graduate from public high school but it was a hard slog.

 

There is a boardie who stays walking distance from me. My friend who stays a few doors away from this boardie did not know this boardie is a homeschooler and my friend has referred many of her friends who have questions about homeschooling to me because she thought I am the only homeschooling family in the neighborhood.

 

So since I wasn’t even aware a boardie is my walking distance neighbor, it is likely that there are families homeschooling in my immediate neighborhood (1.5 mile radius) that no one knows of.

Edited by Arcadia
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I've seen several in my developmental math classes in this extremely low-regulation state. Students who have supposedly completed a "college prep" curriculum (which is how they got admitted with ACT composites in the teens) but will tell me that they have never done algebra. They aren't kidding, either. They need structure and assistance to solve problems like 2x+3=7. Apparently unschooling was playing computer games all day every day. 

 

Yes, I do think this is neglect. I would understand it if it were a kid who wasn't intellectually capable in the first place, but these are. Their parents just believed that they'd teach themselves. 

 

I don't have a good answer, either. But I think it's important to say "this is neglect". Ignoring it increases the social acceptability. 

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I've seen several in my developmental math classes in this extremely low-regulation state. Students who have supposedly completed a "college prep" curriculum (which is how they got admitted with ACT composites in the teens) but will tell me that they have never done algebra. They aren't kidding, either. They need structure and assistance to solve problems like 2x+3=7. Apparently unschooling was playing computer games all day every day. 

 

Yes, I do think this is neglect. I would understand it if it were a kid who wasn't intellectually capable in the first place, but these are. Their parents just believed that they'd teach themselves. 

 

I don't have a good answer, either. But I think it's important to say "this is neglect". Ignoring it increases the social acceptability. 

 

Mothering.com had a number of people who said their kids were learning math and humanities using Minecraft.  :001_huh:  And people would get ANGRY if you pointed out that kids don't learn that way--a highly motivated and intellectually apt child may teach themselves but many kids will repeat the same mind-numbing exercises over and over unless properly motivated. But god forbid you ever implement anything a child didn't "naturally" want to do.

 

As if Minecraft were a natural temptation to forego. I actually had more respect for off-the-grid paranoid no-academic homesteaders. They don't take the stupid easy way out at least and I'm sure their kids are learning something, even if not skills for the 21st century.

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I think that it is reasonable to have minimum standards for NT kids.  But you can't hold all kids to the highest standards.  Even the state doesn't do that. 

 

I actually have higher standards for my kids but that is in part because I know what they are capable of.  But even then my late bloomer was at one point 3 years behind in math.  She is now at grade level.  If you had looked at her test scores (which we took every year) at the point when she was so far behind you might wonder but it wasn't a matter of me not teaching her or pushing her.  She just was not getting math for awhile and then it all clicked and she zoomed ahead.  Her intent at this point in high school is a STEM career.  All of which to say that learning is not always linear. 

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At the moment I think I am. I am working about 40 hours a week at the moment and last week we did maths three times and history an writing twice each. We did manage two home school sports activities and our first day at a science one day programme though. This week may not be much better.

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I have become more and more skeptical of homeschooling as the years have passed (and I am still homeschooling). I think the educational neglect is over 90%. I think the social neglect is lower in areas with a lot of homeschool social activities available. And I think that participating in too many of the social activities contributes to the educational neglect, and the tendency for the parents to not realize it’s a problem. They get an echo chamber going.

 

Over 90%?!?  That's a bold assertion.  Would you be willing to share how you define "neglect"?

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I have seen one family that I suspect is neglecting the education of their children based on limited observation and contact that I've had with them. They are a missionary family with many children ranging in age from approximately 17 to 2. They have basically no money, roam from country to country on 90-day tourist visas trying to evangelize but they are not with any organized missionary society or church. The kids have no home base. They sleep on floors most of the time at unsuspecting people's homes that believe they are helping out this missionary family. They have no plan to give the kids math above Algebra 2, there are no transcripts being prepared. The whole plan seems to be the kids will score very well on the SAT and get admitted to colleges on scholarship without any sort of transcript. They took advantage of our co-op for the brief time they came through our country and never actually paid the minimal dues we charge, used all our supplies, took part in classes without contributing even any teaching, and then left the country. At first they seemed very nice, etc., but then after a while we definitely felt taken advantage of. I feel sorry for the kids. I know how disrupted our schooling gets when we just take off two weeks for a vacation. I could in no way teach a large family of children with no home to speak of.

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I also wonder how many people are judging from what they see from the outside vs truly knowing exactly what is happening inside the home. I have kids that I know have looked like they weren't being educated. I had an 8 yr old who couldn't read Frog and Toad. If he had written something for someone when he was in 5th grade, it would have looked like he had never been taught anything bc his spelling was worse than a k or 1st grader's. I had a woman make a comment to me back then, and I totally dismissed her. She started her conversation with me by telling me she had been homeschooling for 14 yrs, and that she could teach me a thing or 2. (Her oldest was 14 and I had a college student at that point.) I told her he would write when he was ready. Her superiority attitude was all over her face, and no way was I going to justify my homeschool to her. Fwiw, my response was accurate. We were working on his reading and spelling, but nothing was going to make it happen faster than what he was capable of doing.

 

That same ds, I cry to think what would have happened to him in ps. The reading specialists I know (my niece is one of them (she is only 10 yrs younger than me, so she was a specialist when he was little) and another is a close family friend) have both told me that they had been taught and had held the belief (past tense bc ds showed them otherwise) that kids who aren't reading by 4th grade will never catch up, and that they would need remediation and be in special ed classes through to high school graduation. He is outside of what they had been taught to be "possible." He would not have been allowed to be in the advanced track in high school bc he was so low functioning in reading in 6th grade, and tracking starts in middle school.

 

His spelling still stinks if he doesn't have spellcheck going, but by the end of 5th he was reading chpt books(but if heard him read out loud it was slow and labored). By 8th he was advanced across the board. By high school graduation he was an incredibly strong student graduating with 300 level collegework completed. He is now graduating from college with degrees in physics and math with the highest honors possible (he just told me the name a couple of days ago and I can't rmember what they call it, but is for those students who never made a single grade below an A or A+. His school has A-, so those students are not included) So to that mom who was looking down her nose at me and judging our homeschool when he was in 5th grade.....your outside observations were simply that.

 

And now, my current 6th grader spells on par with what her big brother was doing at this age (unfortunately without his math gifts). She struggles with remembering things. She is a struggling student in general. If someone asked her to write something for them, it would look like a 1st grader wrote it. If you made a comment to me about how she needed to be evaluated, I would dismiss you to. People I know peripherally do not need to know what is going on in my homeschool. Her spelling isn't a reflection on anything other than her current level of spelling ability.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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They have no plan to give the kids math above Algebra 2, there are no transcripts being prepared.

Ignoring the nomadic description, this point is not neglect. Algebra 2 as a highest math is not uncommon.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=97

 

I am not sure what it means that no transcripts are being prepared?? I don't prepare a transcript unless there is a need. One doesn't exist unless I make one, which I don't do until I have to. I am wondering if I am misunderstanding what is being meant by this comment.

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Actually, I'm sure she DOES have dyslexia. I was telling the mom that years ago (along with where to get low-cost testing, and how she should really address this asap, blah, blah, blah). She's currently getting her child tutoring services through the public school system, but it took literally YEARS for her to get to that place where she was willing to do it. It did not help to have homeschooling/unschooling mamas telling her "She'll read when she's ready." Um, the child is 10 and hasn't mastered the alphabet. Y'all need to just be quiet. Making this mom feel better at the moment is not going to help her child over the long-term. If I sound frustrated, it's because I am. We need to be helping each other, not enabling denial.

 

I do get what you're saying though. I have a kid with learning disabilities and I can only imagine what people who don't know us must think of her poor neglected education.

It sounds like you know her better than I originally thought. But my 10 year old is getting services and progress is slow. He would be struggling in public school and services there are significantly fewer than whaT we can do at home. Anyway, I think neglect comes in a lot of shapes and sizes.

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I also wonder how many people are judging from what they see from the outside vs truly knowing exactly what is happening inside the home. I have kids that I know have looked like they weren't being educated. I had an 8 yr old who couldn't read Frog and Toad. If he had written something for someone when he was in 5th grade, it would have looked like he had never been taught anything bc his spelling was worse than a k or 1st grader's. I had a woman make a comment to me back then, and I totally dismissed her. She started her conversation with me by telling me she had been homeschooling for 14 yrs, and that she could teach me a thing or 2. (Her oldest was 14 and I had a college student at that point.) I told her he would write when he was ready. Her superiority attitude was all over her face, and no way was I going to justify my homeschool to her. Fwiw, my response was accurate. We were working on his reading and spelling, but nothing was going to make it happen faster than what he was capable of doing.

 

That same ds, I cry to think what would have happened to him in ps. The reading specialists I know (my niece is one of them (she is only 10 yrs younger than me, so she was a specialist when he was little) and another is a close family friend) have both told me that they had been taught and had held the belief (past tense bc ds showed them otherwise) that kids who aren't reading by 4th grade will never catch up, and that they would need remediation and be in special ed classes through to high school graduation. He is outside of what they had been taught to be "possible." He would not have been allowed to be in the advanced track in high school bc he was so low functioning in reading in 6th grade, and tracking starts in middle school.

 

His spelling still stinks if he doesn't have spellcheck going, but by the end of 5th he was reading chpt books(but if heard him read out loud it was slow and labored). By 8th he was advanced across the board. By high school graduation he was an incredibly strong student graduating with 300 level collegework completed. He is now graduating from college with degrees in physics and math with the highest honors possible (he just told me the name a couple of days ago and I can't rmember what they call it, but is for those students who never made a single grade below an A or A+. His school has A-, so those students are not included) So to that mom who was looking down her nose at me and judging our homeschool when he was in 5th grade.....your outside observations were simply that.

 

And now, my current 6th grader spells on par with what her big brother was doing at this age (unfortunately without his math gifts). She struggles with remembering things. She is a struggling student in general. If someone asked her to write something for them, it would look like a 1st grader wrote it. If you made a comment to me about how she needed to be evaluated, I would dismiss you to. People I know peripherally do not need to know what is going on in my homeschool. Her spelling isn't a reflection on anything other than her current level of spelling ability.

Just love all of this. So much hope and encouragement for a mother of a son with pretty similar backstory. Every day is a struggle and I’m thankful my family is on board and helping to get us through and that people don’t judge ME similarly. And knowing there is hope—well that just comes at a time when I am struggling to have hope!

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I don’t regularly engage with homeschoolers outside the home in real life. My kids are in a cover, and it is stricter than most locally; in fact, the cover exceeds state law. I have to report days and undergo 3 records checks and submit math and writing samples. My lesson plans with daily assignments are laid bare for another mom to view. Our particular cover does such things to ensure teaching is getting done. Not all home educators want that kind of oversight.

 

Over the years, thoughtful homeschool moms have learned that my DS has SLDs, and they reach out to me with questions. Ages of the children vary from 10-17 yo, and these students cannot read or write or require some sort of testing The moms want their kids to read but are clueless about where or how to seek help. These people are fearful that the state will take their children or the spouse won’t provide the money for them to purchase the remediation materials which are often obscenely expensive. Some are deeply religious and fearful of some psych doctor scrambling with their child’s mind. I have to explain what the IQ testing is like and provide links for them to read on their own.

 

I guess I’m trying to say that ignorance and fear can look like educational neglect. Homeschooling requires moxie and determination in the face of adversity. Sometimes we get stuck in the weeds, but I would not even hazzard a guess as to a percentage of parents providing a subpar education.

Edited by Heathermomster
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