Lecka Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 It's hard. If your son has strong comprehension and weak decoding, that isn't what most reading level measures are going to be made for. Most don't care much about decoding level. They care more about text complexity and age appropriateness. So you start to see books that are a higher interest level but an easier book as far as how easy it is to read, and they will get marked a higher level, because they are more for older kids. Diary of a Wimpy Kid is like this. Divergent is like this. It's actually a book with pretty easy-to-decode words and straightforward sentences (from what I remember), but it's written at a young adult level for content. Anyway you can look for lexile measure on the barnes and noble website. You can see suggested grade ranges on Amazon. But it's hard. If you google leveled reading passages you can find some leveled reading passages, but it is hard to know how official they are. You can also google "Dibels fluency passages" and find either fluency passages they use for different grades, or practice passages. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 If you want to flip through books he might like and look for fluency passages that would be reasonable for him, that's something you can do, too. For his age, Diary of a Wimpy Kid is legitimately popular, if he likes it. They are something you could glance at. The Origami Yoda books were popular with his age when my son was younger but I don't know if they still are as popular. It's a series though if he likes it. Both of them have pictures and drawings. My 12-year-old son currently does really like the graphic novel for Wings of Fire: The Dragonet Prophecy. It has bright pictures, and he is really pleased with it. It has art, too. For him the books with drawings and stuff would appeal to him more. My little kids currently love Dog Man by Dav Pilkey. They have a ton of drawings. They're much, much easier to read than the Captain Underpants books. They are a lot harder books. Dog Man is one that would be great if he likes it and doesn't think it is too babyish. My little kids are in 3rd grade this year. Also if he wouldn't find them too babyish, I like the Scholastic Branches series, they have a lot of pictures and drawings. The Dragon Masters series is pretty popular, but on the harder side. My younger son really likes one called Super Rabbit Boy. They are full color throughout, and they are on the easier side compared to Dragon Masters. They have a video game theme and I think they are well-done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I tend to go with seeing what dc can read and looking at the R.L.; Lexile etc. written on back cover, or looking that up on line if it's not on the book. Not perfect but can help with finding other material that is suitable. Honestly, despite your and his frustration, it sounds like he is coming along really, really well. I personally don't think you should take a break from Barton unless you have something else to go to instead until he is reading at age/grade level. But I also think you should open up his reading to doing a lot of other things too, which should help the boredom issue. And maybe should consider something with a different order so that he can get more under his reading skills belt sooner. I'd like to suggest a book (actually a 3 book series) that might be a big stretch for him at this stage, but could work with your help to read it --maybe in the method of you read a few pages, he reads a page, you read a few pages (also some pages are harder than others, so if you come to a hard page, or the section in italics, you read that part), so he does not get too tired. I think it might appeal to a smart10yo boy. It is a fantasy comedy called The Bromeliad Trilogy by Terry Pratchett. To give an idea of the difficulty level it starts out: "Nomes are small. On the whole, small creatures don't live for a long time. But perhaps they do live fast. "Let me explain. One of the shortest-lived creatures on the planet Earth is the common mayfly. It lasts for one day. ..." The hard cover version has IMO a pretty dyslexia friendly page layout and enough white space between lines that makes it better than more dense pages from the pov of not getting physically overwhelmed by difficult typeface and lines too close together. If he has no trouble with that, or only trouble with a few words like creatures and/or whole and/or common and/or Earth, it might be doable. I also suggest seeing if he'd be willing to work with you on reading the Magic Tree House books even if they seem a little babyish to him. They span 2nd to 4th grade reading levels and could take him from where he is now to far more interesting books. And the Fact Trackers have decent nonfiction information in them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 The website crammed my post into one smooshed paragraph. I'm trying to fix that. Reading level: I tend to go with seeing what dc can read and looking at the R.L.; Lexile etc. written on back cover, or looking that up on line if it's not on the book. Not perfect but can help with finding other material that is suitable. Honestly, despite your and his frustration, it sounds like your son is coming along really, really well. I personally don't think you should take a break from Barton unless you have something else to go to instead until he is reading at age/grade level--and until actually reading things and getting practice because he wants to, I think reading should stay a required subject because losing ground is very possible. But I also think you should open up his reading to doing a lot of other things too (or instead), which should help the boredom issue. And maybe should consider a program with a different order so that he can get more under his reading skills belt sooner. I see Lecka made some suggestions. I'd also like to suggest a book or books to try. First, actually a 3 book series, that might be a big stretch for him at this stage, but could work with your help to read it --maybe in the method of you read a few pages, he reads a page, you read a few pages (also some pages are harder than others, so if you come to a hard page, or the sections in italics, you read that part), so he does not get too tired. I think it might appeal to a smart10yo boy. It is a fantasy comedy called The Bromeliad Trilogy by Terry Pratchett. It is, I think, meant for children, but with enough humor and social satire that adults can enjoy it too. To give an idea of the difficulty level it starts out: "Nomes are small. On the whole, small creatures don't live for a long time. But perhaps they do live fast. "Let me explain. "One of the shortest-lived creatures on the planet Earth is the common mayfly. It lasts for one day. ..." The hard cover version has IMO a pretty dyslexia-friendly page layout and enough white space between lines that makes it better than more dense pages from the pov of not getting physically overwhelmed by difficult typeface and lines too close together. If he has no trouble decoding the part I quoted, or only trouble with a few words like creatures and/or whole and/or common and/or Earth, it might be doable. I also suggest seeing if he'd be willing to work with you on reading the Magic Tree House books even if they seem a little babyish to him. They span 2nd to 4th grade reading levels and could take him from where he is now to far more interesting books. And the Fact Trackers have decent nonfiction information in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I think Magic Tree House would be great, too, if he would like them. I have read a lot of them alive and I think then get really good in the Merlin Missions. I think it’s a lot of trial and error to find what he will like (or tolerate lol). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) Pen, so you suggest moving on to 6 right after level 5? I think we were all at least moderately looking forward to a summer break. Thank you all for the book recommendations. He hated magic treehouse. 😫 what are the Merlin Missions though? Edited February 27, 2018 by mamamoose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 Pen, I think we might love that trilogy. I just downloaded the sample on my phone. The tone and extra fact stuff seems right up his alley. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 The Merlin Missions are the later Magic Tree House books. It’s one of those things where it would be so convenient to like them, but there’s no point if he doesn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 The Merlin Missions are the later Magic Tree House books. It’s one of those things where it would be so convenient to like them, but there’s no point if he doesn’t. Okay so they are still the same kind of book. Yeah, my older kiddo loved them. Read all of them one after the other. He likes the fact checkers but not enough to read them on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exercise_guru Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) I remember there was a level my son was at that he wanted to read other things and it was just challenging because we hadn't hit all the site words and we hadn't hit all the vowel groups. What I did is find a book that I thought he would like and flip through and find the groups he didn't know and write them down. Then I tried to make sure I taught them. Because Saxon phonics and AAR were burning me out I did invest in some units from teachers pay teachers. I just pulled them up I can list the ones I used. I just put them in where AAR was bland. My son is very visual and hard to motivate. He needed some energy and spice. He probably did have stealth dyslexia because he flipped letters like crazy in handwriting. I am not saying that you should use them but perhaps one might be helpful or they might help another parent who is struggling. I also used powerpoint to make a lot of my owns stuff and I am sure that there is more. I didn't have Barton but it looks like it follows a very similiar path to saxon phonics and then slightly similar to AAR which was the program I used. By color coding the groups it helped immensely as my son didn't freak out and think he was seeing something new all the time. He was like oh another spelling to make the orange long o sound Anyway I will put this here in case it is of help to anyone. "silent E is a ninja" and worked on the silent e words because otherwise we were stuck because those words are everywhere and they don't come up early in the AAR and saxon books. I also had to do something about bossy R and a pirate unit on OR AR so I made a pirate unit for bossy R from the teachers pay teachers site. STable vowel endings ED & ING endings Orange OA and OW - 5 Interactive Activities Blue goo words Meet the Yuckies (Resources for ew, ue, and oo Spelling Patterns) Loved Loved Loved this a huge help to my son. Turqoise Loyd the Droid Meet Lloyd the Droid (Resources for oi/oy Phonics Patterns) Brown loud Cow I Spy Loud Cows (ou and ow Words) CVC bundle used and matched to colors Dipthong bundle I colored my own way Long Vowel bundle I colored my own way. I just needed more words and pictures with words and ways for him to think about the vowel groups. Digraph bundle Snapwords 301 and 306 were my biggest crazy investment but I could use them on the pad so I didn't have to print them if I got them in the full sheets. We made up so many stories with these. I got the idea from Diane Craft for kids with learning disabilities. I know it goes against many of the ortho-gillman ideas but I later found out my son had auditory processing. He needed to use his visual system to splint over the week "inner voice" When we started reading he could not hear his voice in his head so with just letters in front of him nothing was sinking in. Now for reading lists and suggestions. Here is my low level list that I used just to get things moving and keep them moving for my son. There is a site called AR-bookfinder and the lexile site if you need to search for levels. The early stuff is good with early AAR but I had to get through the stuff I mentioned for him to take off. Raz-Kids: hundreds of decent books all leveled that you could help build him into. They have a free trial and so burn that up. They tend to level in the order that the word groups are taught in school. Its a pad program or a computer program. I actually bought this for the entire class for my daughter but she was in a bilingual school so they used the program extensively for independent reading in both languages. The main site A-Z reading actually has some wonderful leveled units for science you could look into that your son could read with confidence. The A-Z site used to come as a joint subscription and they have fluency checkmarks for all the levels. This is probably the one series I would combine with Barton. I say this because I watched kids learn on this series in my daughter's class clear through 6th grade. Many of them were learning english as a second language and so I bought the subscription for RAz kids and A-z reading so they could use them with ipads and print them and take them home for the kids who didn't have computers at home. Then I saw the other side with english kids learning spanish as the second language They used the books as their primary readers all the way through and eventually could read spanish chapter books in 5th and 6th grade. This is worth the money and the bribery to move him through the reading levels. My son used these at school so at home I focused on the stuff below at home. He did enjoy building the robots as he finished the levels and took the quizes. It was a good program. Beyond that I am just thinking back to how I helped get him moving in reading. Here is the progression of books that were worth it. I can look in my school box downstairs to see if I have them. My son is 10 but he was a very reluctant reader. I taught him starting at 7. He was getting creamed in kindergarten and first grade so I stepped in and taught him with saxon phonics. The great news is there are many many early books for boys. so I am going to tell you these are the books worthy of consideration for his age group. the font is big and easy to read. If he doesn't know a word that is longer have him try to sound it out and usually its something like a characthers name . Just help with that the key is to get them excited. with the thin books just look for the titles that are funny,action or interesting and not babyish and he will be fine. These are thin readers so a young boy can build confidence and burn through them without fatigue. Pick the funny ones and the superhero or sports ones. I am listing the amazon link because often you can peak inside the book to get an idea. supertwins: The best of the best that series was. I got the first book from the library and bought the other two. Spiderman: I put this here because any of these series at the library. The little thin books on starwars, minecraft whatever the books are all fry sight words mostly and decodable words with charachter names being the challenge. Hi/Lo recomendations from a libraries and manufactures. you could use interlibrary loan if needed all look like a bit higher like in 3 months but good. Link HERE , another one Penguin young readers They start at 1 and move through the levels. I can read series again starts beginning and goes through. perhaps you could find some if you have a rural library and then check out a big box for a month. Mac and cheese was a good one. Scooby doo was a fun thin set of early readers I would call these early early early chapter books that are good good solid early chapter books Hank the cowDog Flat Stanley Books Cam Jansen George Brown class clown Dragon slayers academy Captain Awesome a whole series that is at the 2nd grade level Nate the great and then later up two levels is Big Nate I am always looking for books of 2-3 so if he can read one I can keep it going with more. More step into reading with sports at a higher level Step into reading Nonfiction-volcanoes. Clint McCool anything on amazon in that range. Lots of fun books. Game Over, Super Rabbit Boy! A Branches Book (Press Start! #1) Here's Hank The Bad Guys Secret of the Water Dragon: A Branches Book (Dragon Masters #3) My two favortes that are a jump into chapter books the Galaxy Zac series best series we read the entire thing. It was in these books that my son discovered he loved to read. ricky ricotta's mighty robot series: Best series ever never had a kid not want to read it and love it. my son who is now a great reader even goes back and reads the next one when it comes out. Then he fell in love with humphrey the hamster series and he was reading after that so They say the ones below are early chapter books but I saw them more in end of 2nd beginning of 3rd grade Boxcar children The Notebook of Doom Wierdest school series Magic academy ( I think that is what its called all my sons friends read it but he was past it) Dragon Masters He hated magic treehouse but there were other books for boys that he could climb into and he had vision therapy so he could track graphic novels and nonfiction.He went on to read Maddog, The jedi academy, Wimpy kid, at that point I just stood at the library and let him try whatever he was interested in. He could track and he could read and he had finished the word families, snapwords, Rcontrolled vowels and Ninja e , We did a lot of you read I read or he just layed in bed next to me at night and we read together. Pick any of these books in this series and just let him lay in bed next to you . You read a page he reads a page and follows along. have a pad and note any words that he struggles with and then target those look up where it is in barton or use a supplement. I just want to say that god bless you for being such a great mom and god bless his grandma for not giving up on this kid and helping him. It will so be worth it and he will make progress. I have been where you are with my own son I have felt like I am just digging everyday and wondered if we will break through. It is tedious without a doubt. Just know this kiddo would have been trampled in a traditional school program. You are a gift to him even if our kids don't always appreciate it. Edited February 27, 2018 by exercise_guru 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Don't know if today will get smooshed or not. I'll put some dashes where I start new paragraphs. ----------------------------------------------- I suggest not taking a break from intense reading remediation, if anything, upping the intensity, not lowering it. ------------------------------------- I don't know if you should continue Barton or switch to something else. Or continue Barton and add another program too. I don't think you should limit him to just Barton and nothing else. -------------------------------------------- Pretty much all kids slide back in reading level/ability / fluency during breaks, but IME it is far, far worse for dyslexic kids. I think if you take a break from intense remediation it will cause loss of progress, or worse slipping back to an earlier level, and thus even greater frustration and discouragement. ------------------------- Putting together ADD and dyslexia, your son may not have enough interest plus focus plus ability to read anything on his own until he gets to the level that he can easily read books of high interest to himself. However, you can work with him on reading lessons with things other than Barton (or HN, or Dancing Bears, or Abecedarian or whatever). So something like MTH Fact Finders could provide books between second and third grade reading level that are _tolerable_ to him, so as to get lots (and lots and lots) of practice on them as read-alouds. That just happens to be something that I know does exist with many books at reading levels from around 2.0 to 4.0 grade level. ------------------------------------------------- If the Terry Pratchett trilogy appeals, TP wrote another trilogy which I have not read and so don't know if it is harder or easier reading than Bromeliad. The other Trilogy is called the Johnny Maxwell Trilogy. ---------------------------------------------- Again, I don't know if you should do Barton 6 at all (maybe depends partly on if you already own it). But I think you should do _some_ program that keeps him moving along without a break. And I think the program should be done at the same time as you are finding "real" books that he can read with you as part of his instruction, even if he is not able to or interested in them to an enjoyment reading level or a reading on his own level. And at the same time as you find whatever else might help these skills too--games, his own writing, perhaps whispersync ... ------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Pen, so you suggest moving on to 6 right after level 5? I think we were all at least moderately looking forward to a summer break. Thank you all for the book recommendations. He hated magic treehouse. 😫 what are the Merlin Missions though? I'm not Pen but yes, do move to level 6 over the summer. Not just because he will go faster but it will also keep him from backtracking. I think you will find with more exposure to words as he goes on the later levels will move faster. 6 is a little longer and tougher but 7 went fast because DS had already been exposed to many R modified vowels through other things. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Or anyway, do something to get him his silent-E endings, his R-controlled vowels, and all his vowel teams. ------------------------------------------ ---could be Barton. ---could be your own way of teaching those . ----or ElizabethB's program -----or other things you find online. ----could be HN, in which case all 3 are part of the Level 1 Program, and you might not need the student workbook nor any readers, just a teacher book ($55) and a student book ($15). -----could be some other program But... you are getting close to him having all the basic pieces he needs. Don't stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Or anyway, do something to get him his silent-E endings, his R-controlled vowels, and all his vowel teams. ------------------------------------------ ---could be Barton. ---could be your own way of teaching those .----or ElizabethB's program-----or other things you find online.----could be HN, in which case all 3 are part of the Level 1 Program, and you might not need the student workbook nor any readers, just a teacher book ($55) and a student book ($15).-----could be some other programBut... you are getting close to him having all the basic pieces he needs. Don't stop. Honestly, it confused my dyslexic son to have a ton of stuff thrown at him and that is why Barton worked is because it was mastery based and worked wonderfully. This may not be the case with OP's son but I'm throwing out that warning just in case. The last thing you want to do is confuse everything when you have worked this long for mastery of each level. I'm just a big fan of, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If your son OP can read the level 5 sheets fine than it really is working. Of course, only you know if he is or not. If you gave a level 5 story to a student from a different program that was only 1/2 through my guess is that they would fail. Not because the other program was bad but because the other program taught in a different order. I loved watching my son accurately spell those super long words because he knew how the pieces went together. That being said, you can still point out an r modified or silent E so they are aware and exposed to them when they get there but mostly the phonics I personally would work on was the next step of Barton. Silent E's are the very next level anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 I just want to say that god bless you for being such a great mom and god bless his grandma for not giving up on this kid and helping him. It will so be worth it and he will make progress. I have been where you are with my own son I have felt like I am just digging everyday and wondered if we will break through. It is tedious without a doubt. Just know this kiddo would have been trampled in a traditional school program. You are a gift to him even if our kids don't always appreciate it. Thank you. I think encouragement comes in small spurts and not very frequently. Some days this feels thankless—not that I’m doing it for that reason but it can be exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Frogger, ------------------------- How old was your son at the point that he finished Barton and could read regular books at his interest level, and how many years did that take working how long per day, how many times per week? ------------------------- I understand what you are saying about not fixing something that is working, but am not sure that what M-Moose's family is doing _is_ working adequately in terms of the son's frustration and discouragement level mounting. --------------------------- From my own experience, 3x per week (of any program) plus work on word lists the other days would not have been enough to become a good reader. ------------------------- Perhaps OP's ds needs to go through levels slowly due to his dyslexia + processing speed issues, and Barton is the best bet for them even if it does take several more years to get through it. Sort of like the turtle ultimately winning the race. ------------------------ But maybe the combo of the way the Barton sequence goes, and the way they are working 3x/week with the grandma tutoring, and avoiding outside reading materials, is making it more slow, tedious, frustrating, and discouraging than learning to read needs to be for him. And that too could affect him negatively just as confusion could be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) We only worked on Barton 3-4 years including summers with a pre-teen. It does feel super long but honestly it did not stop us from doing everything else, reading stories, saying poems, doing science, math, literature. It was a reminder of how the program worked and why with the disclaimer that it may be different for her. Also a reminder why it works for some, mastering phonics piece by piece. I think you don't understand how the program works, at least that is my impression from your comments. But I really don't have time to explain to someone who doesn't need to know. I still have speech to do with 2 children. Maybe you could go look it up. Edited February 28, 2018 by frogger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Frogger, ---------- I have looked up Barton a few times and saw some in person from a friend using it. I decided at that time that Barton would not be a good fit for my ds. --------------------- I have posted on this thread because the OP specifically asked in her first post about other options to Barton. ------------------- And because in many ways her description of her son sounds similar to my son back when he was at the remediating reading stage. ______________ ================================================================================================== PS: Anyone, ------------ Is there any way to let the site technical administration know that paragraphing, underlining, etc. don't work for a particular poster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esse Quam Videri Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Ah, o.k. I don't know if I can help but I will try. First, I have no idea if Barton is actually helping your child or not. I can't seem to get a good feel for this. It is not a good fit for everyone. If it really isn't working, if he isn't making progress, then switching to something else may absolutely be a better option. It depends on WHY it isn't working as to what might work better. Also, the program itself might still be a great program for your child with some tweaking but even if the program just needs tweaking, I have found from past experience with other material that sometimes there is too much water under the bridge and changes are implemented too late for a particular program to really work with a particular child. They associate too many negative feelings with that program. Also, if the parent hates the program, whether they intend it to or not, that view/attitude will bleed through and may negatively impact any forward progress the program may provide (BTDT). Sometimes it just works better to change to something new. I will say that my own attitude definitely influenced how things went. When I embraced the material and tweaked it to work better for me and my kids and tackled the process with enthusiasm it went more smoothly for all of us but that definitely worked better with DD than DS because DS had comorbid issues that just made the process a lot harder. It was a lot more frustrating for him to get through the lessons, starting mid-level 3. He struggled. He hated that he struggled. He still learned to read with this program, though. Now I will share what worked for us. Maybe some of this would help? I have no idea if you have tried any of these things. I will just toss out what seemed to help and hope that some of this might be useful. FWIW, DD had an abysmal attitude when we started (that definitely changed over time because she realized she was actually learning to read and spell but she started out being a pill to try and teach). She didn't think anything could help her read and she was tired of trying. Her attitude was awful and that was very discouraging for me. It also made it harder for her to learn. I second guessed what we were doing a LOT at first. I had to accept that she had every right to be discouraged. She had been banging her head against the reading/spelling wall for years. I had to stop taking it personally and I had to accept that the process would not be easy for her, no matter what we used. She needed some encouragement. She also could not stay focused for long periods of time. I eventually did a sort of reset. We took a complete break for a bit then started over but I had to shift how we approached things. First, I committed myself to a positive attitude. I smiled. I was sympathetic. I was upbeat without being insultingly fake. This was much easier once the kids and I genuinely started seeing progress (if there had been no progress we would not have stuck with the program) but I had to make myself improve my attitude first. In other words, I had to shift from plug and chug, "lets march through this and just survive", to a more "this really is a great program if we will just trust it to do the job it was created to do and we can have some fun while we do it". I made the lessons part of our daily landscape, done at a consistent time when they were really awake, had had some physical activity, and I scheduled it right before break and snack time so they had something to look forward to. I also never scheduled it after we had had to do something else requiring a lot of seat work and a lot of effort. Their brains were too tired at that point. I also never pushed it off until the last thing of the day because that meant we were all really tired but some kids do better if this is the last thing of the day because they know once it is done they are done with everything and can push through to get to the end. I know that others have had success shifting when the lessons are done. I kept the lessons short. Usually between 20-40 minutes. But again we were doing them daily, M-F and sometimes short sessions on Saturday. They became part of our landscape. I got push back at first but it became just part of the routine. I created a quiet space that was only for Barton. It was in a separate space in a quiet room. There was a fun seat to sit on. There was no clutter. Just Barton. It helped them both get into Barton mode and to stay focused. Once we left the room, no more Barton for the day. I bought the Spelling Success card games and read through all the extra supports for tutors to find other games we could bring into the mix to keep the kids engaged. This was a big help. I only used fluency drills upon occasion with DS and only a couple of times with DD since they did not actually improve fluency for DD (she didn't need them). I only used the Spelling tests upon occasion and I never drilled the spelling words. I gave them the tests cold, frequently only using the short list. Took very little time and was simply a tool to find out if they were truly internalizing the rules, not just sort of rote memorizing them. DS liked seeing a big A on his tests so I sometimes did the spelling tests over word types already mastered so he could get a boost of confidence (and to confirm he still had those rules internalized). I stuck to only reviewing 3 sight words at a time, but rotated back in previously mastered words once in a while to keep them fresh. I kept it short. I did not drill and kill. The stories were only read during the lesson since they found them boring or odd at times. When we weren't doing lessons they were free to pick up and silently read anything they wanted once we were halfway through level 3. I worked hard to find books that were higher interest but had easier words to decode. For instance, Lecka (poster here on LC) had pointed out that Divergent seemed to have easier words to decode. She was right. Therefore we gave DD Divergent for Christmas. She was thrilled. She read it cover to cover. I did not assign it. I did not ask her to read it out loud. She simply took it out of the wrapping and quietly sat in a corner reading for fun. She loved it. She had reached a point that she could decode enough words with fluency that she could understand the story and figure out the other words from context. I printed out ALL the extra practice pages (from the packet and from the website) and had those in non-glare plastic sleeves in a binder, along with the spelling lists. If we were having a tough day or I thought we just needed some practice and not a full lesson I pulled out a dry erase marker, an extra practice page and a game and we also did hangman with a word or two from the spelling lists. Great for reinforcement and could be fun. Being in plastic sleeves, the Extra Practice pages could be reused for review. I also created some of my own practice pages based on the format Barton used. I worked to incorporate some fun word games during the lesson (there are suggestions for how to do this somewhere in cyberspace but I don't remember where I found them). I let DD and DS play around with the words, creating new sentences, creating new stories, getting them more engaged with the material. I acknowledged that this process is hard. It takes time. I tried hard not to take long breaks from the program because it was really hard to get started again and it was really frustrating to have to go back and do a lot of review. I also acknowledged that while one size does not fit all and if something isn't working maybe it is time to jump ship, sometimes nothing will be easy and what I may need to do is at least try to adapt what I already have to work with the child in front of me. I sometimes wondered if sticking with this program was the right thing to do. I really did. I also knew that we had hopped all over trying to find different ways to help and NONE of those things had worked well. We were losing time and money and the kids were getting more and more demoralized. Therefore, I also acknowledged that there might not be a truly amazing, easy to implement, super fun and engaging program my kids would jump for joy to do and that would actually help but this program had worked for a lot of people so maybe I needed to commit to trying to tweak what I already had instead of constantly mentally fighting with myself over whether to continue. I shifted my focus, accepted that hopping around all over probably wouldn't net us much and I mentally committed to getting through at least Level 6 with as much enthusiasm and tweaking as needed to get us there. I also shared with them that this IS a hard process and pointed out where there was significant improvement. I celebrated their successes. I did not make our mental focus about areas that still needed work. In focusing on their progress I, too, realized that they had actually come a long way and it was working, albeit slowly at times. We made progress in fits and starts and leaps forward and sometimes a few steps back. But we were definitely making progress and acknowledging that fact helped all of us. I never required out loud reading outside of the Barton program until after Level 5. If they voluntarily read out loud I did not correct or step in to read it for them unless they asked or seemed to want some help. I waited patiently for them to finish reading and smiled. If I constantly corrected them, it made them too self-conscious and insecure. I realized that DD was struggling with comprehension beyond her issues with decoding/fluency and tried to work on that separately. I tried not to confuse her ability to decode with fluency and her ability to comprehend as she read or someone read to her. But again, I was actually seeing progress with both children. That helped me stay committed, even during the really hard lessons where I felt I was going to scream. If there had been no or only a little bit of progress I would have quit after Level 3. We would never have made it through Level 4. Certainly would not have even attempted the higher levels we got through. Not sure any of that will help you but I thought I should at least share, just in case. Whatever you decide, whatever happens, I wish you and your son the best and hope you find a path that works. Good luck and best wishes. I just want to say THANK YOU for this response. I am hoping to find an alternative to Barton, but there is so much wisdom here to glean from no matter what program we're using. And until we do find something else, I want to stay positive and enthusiastic, as difficult as it is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 Frogger, ----------I have looked up Barton a few times and saw some in person from a friend using it. I decided at that time that Barton would not be a good fit for my ds.--------------------- I have posted on this thread because the OP specifically asked in her first post about other options to Barton. -------------------And because in many ways her description of her son sounds similar to my son back when he was at the remediating reading stage.______________==================================================================================================PS: Anyone, ------------ Is there any way to let the site technical administration know that paragraphing, underlining, etc. don't work for a particular poster? I don’t know how to fix your issues with posting but I want to say I really do appreciate your input and commitment to helping me find alternatives or additions to what we are doing. I think I am going to stick with Barton for the long term but do some reading comprehension and fluency when we are done with the level we are in and through the summer, picking level 6 up in July when we start our next year. I will work on silent e stuff (although that doesn’t seem to be a big problem, to be honest multisylable words are still more of a problem even tho he syllabicates very well on paper), and R-controlled vowels as we go and in small spurts. Barton will solidify that and cover what I miss. This may not be a perfect solution but it’s what I think we have to do to survive with sanity. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Sanity is vital. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 What do AR level and lexile level tell you about level of reading? We used AR before but it was long enough ago, I don’t remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exercise_guru Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 well AR tends to go level 1 level 2 level 3 and its supposed to be grade level but really it just give you a chance to narrow out books that would be worth trying . Lexicle goes in the 100's If your son is like my son which he probably isn't but he is also 10. There was a point where it was tough because he was starting to break through but didn't want to read some dumb baby book. That is why I listed everything I could think of we tried above. Last night my son who is now 10 and reading at a 8th grade( he really took off with that color system I used) level still is excited to read dogman and many of those books. He told me the bad guys was just a fun book even though it was a quick read for him. What this tells me is that the books initially if they are interesting can be climbed into by your son and then as he advances he still won't mind them as he gets more adept at reading because they are written for young boys under 12. There are many many more books for that age group now rather than when we were growing up. OK but don't get discouraged if you take anythiing away from what I post is that with an ADHD brain you have to get buy in. The brain has to be stimulated. It needs novelty and Barton is probably grindingly consistent.OK I wouldn't throw it out I would just add some spice to it. So maybe half barton and then switch course and push the concept in with color or meaning. I just remember we were reading All about reading level 4 and then we found the supertwins book listed above. That was a nice transition to those thin chapter books. He doesn't have to be perfect just slow and steady to build confidence. If the Raz kids trial period will let you in do it. That alone will let you know where he is at because those books are leveled A-Z with fluency passages and quizes. You will love the day he reads a book and starts to laugh at the content. Its coming and the books above were suggested because they had that element to them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 This will probably not paste well due to my site-use problem. But if the sample reading level info I am going to try to paste below works at all or you can get to the links, you'll see that this is giving a comparison between interest level and reading level--which early on I think may be more helpful than just the reading level measures. It is not at all perfect for relating to a particular kid. However, I like to find things where "interest level" is higher than "reading level." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A child's Lexile can be measured (schools do this, don't know how at home) and that can be matched up with books, fairly well, also imperfect, to find what likely should be readable, or at about 50 points up from current Lexile, what should be at instructional level to work on improving reading. ------------------ The thing below has columns in the original so that Interest Level for Bowser is grades 4-8, Reading Level grades 2-5. And that is the sort of thing I'd be looking toward for your son as combining a higher interest level with a lower reading ability level. But I expect Bowser will still be too hard for him except if you were to give him a lot of help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Interest Level Reading Level Reading A-Z Grades 4 - 8 Grades 2 - 5 n/a Woof: A Bowser and Birdie Novel Book Review and Ratings by Kids ... https://www.dogobooks.com/woof/book-review/0545643317 Interest Level Reading Level ATOS Grades 3 - 7 Grades 6 - 10 5.6 Old School (Diary of a Wimpy Kid) Book Review and Ratings by Kids ... https://www.dogobooks.com/old...diary-of-a-wimpy-kid/book.../ 0141364726 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suenos Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Hi Mamamoose I'm an occasional mostly lurker here. I hope you don't mind me chiming in on this at this late date! Got a dyslexic 10.5 (he insists on the .5) with ADHD and other stuff...so much of what you've posted (and others' posted) I get. He was not helped by typical ADHD meds (stimulants/Intuniv) and I was staunchly anti-meds for a time, but he has been greatly helped by Straterra...so I'm ambivalent on meds...can be good, might not be...up to parents/kids/docs to figure out together - not for me to say!!!! I've not tried Barton. Looked at it many times. ADHD + anxiety and other challenges meant we were not likely to be successful with a regimented program. So we have largely DIY dyslexic reading teaching at our house. I have modified Logic of English (basically slowed it w-a-y down) and use AAS as a phonogram program/review (writing is possibly more painful and slow and difficult than reading - so we use AAS s-l-o-w-ly). I've heard about Barton's recommendation of no reading until a certain point and I really don't know what I think about that. I respect that reading is often un-recognized super hard work for our kiddos and limiting it is likely to be helpful to kids. But if restricting means less exposure...familiarity, motivation, context, sight words, they all help - and that IS reading. Phonics is super important for decoding. But confidence, interest, repetition, etc. goes a long way. If my son is in the mood, he can read regular Star Wars Darth Vader comic books decently - big words, plenty of phonograms he doesn't really "know." If he's off, not interested, tired, it's out of context - no way! So endless YouTube videos on Minecraft with the dialogue on the screen helped him a lot! But not without the foundation of phonics...ya know? My advice, for whatever it's worth - sounds like Barton is helping, but reading is a no-fun chore. Understandable! I'd look for and be open to reading he's willing to do in any and all forms - comic books, reading along with your finger in something like Diary of a Wimpy Kid, YouTube videos with captions, etc. Never required, just encouraged. I do have my DS read aloud at this point every "homeschool" day (4-5 days/wk). I try to find books on level that aren't a turn off b/c they're too "baby-ish." When he reads aloud, I don't make him decode every word - I read names a lot (they often don't follow 'rules') and help him with advanced multisyllable words (serious buggers!) if he doesn't read it right away. My DS is at about 2nd - ish grade "level" -- recently he's read (with a little help, as above) Encyclopedia Brown and Tomie dePaola's autobiographical chapter book series "26 Fairmount Avenue." He practically knows the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books by heart b/c we've read them at bedtime so much (until I went on strike - hey mom has to like what she's reading at least a little bit too, and after several reads I was seriously bored!) - but those might be a good suggestion others' have made too. We've read Origami Yoda to my DS - but it would be a bit hard for him to do himself, at this point, really. Maybe it's time to supplement short Barton practices with some "real" reading he likes - even if you have to do it with your guy. Finally, the motivation and buy-in part are huge. When my guy was younger, we couldn't make progress at times, we even set aside reading for 6 months or more at a time. At 6. At 7. At 8 and at 9 1/2. In between breaks, when we could, he made some progress. And I had him tested and knew he was dyslexic and the drumbeat was 'early intervention.' But when he was crying, hiding in pillows and running and hiding under the table or in the closet and called the reading book "the torture book" really? This is good? No. I only add this last part to a long post to respond to your sense of frustration and tiredness and thinking about whether you can take a summer break. Maybe a good, long break might be what you both need. If so, take it!!! Read aloud, do fun stuff. This is a lifelong skill. He'll get there (b/c you are helping him - not in an unschool it will be magic sense...) Only you can decide...but we're moms - we aren't at school and we can decide what's best overall - reading is only 1 thing - overall quality of life - surely more important, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Research has been pointing to the conclusion that keeping kids at their "just right" spot (not to hard, not too easy) is not necessarily the best way to improve reading. For years everyone has been saying, keep them at the 'instructional' and not 'frustration' level, but as others have been saying, reading books you REALLY want to read, even if they are at the 'frustration' level, makes a difference. Supportive teaching of material that is "too hard" is possibly better than only doing 'instructional' level things. People's definitions of those terms vary, but I generally go with 95-100% accuracy is "independent," 90-95 is "instructional," and below 90% accuracy is "frustration. I'm NOT saying to never venture into the frustration zone - because if you're supporting him, motivation can overcome the negative effects of frustration. If you get Raz-Kids, you can search for "benchmark passages." These are one-page checks at each reading level. You have the kid read, time them, and then figure out how many words correct they read per minute, and also their accuracy. To determine accuracy, divide the words correctly read by the total number of words. (Ex. if they read 56 words correctly out of 87, do 56/87.) When you find a passage where he's just barely reading above 95% accuracy, I'd call that his independent reading level. The "instructional" level will be slightly above that. So, if he can read level E books independently, try working on level F or G. Words correct per minute are tricky. You can find norms online. A veteran teacher that I really trust says she aims for 100-110 words correct per minute as the goal.... you'd be very fluent at that speed. My students are generally reading at 65-75 words correct per minute. It's slow-ish, but not horrible. When they get above 80 words correct per minute they are going at a decent, but not speedy, rate. I highly recommend Raz-Kids. You get a lot of information and resources. Your kid gets a lot of cool books. It's a good value for the money :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 So with Raz kids, do they have to move through levels? Because as far as I can tell in the trial, he would have to start with B and he’s way beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exercise_guru Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) I will have some else verify this but when we used it a few years ago it allowed me to set a range like fgh and he could choose from any of those books. I would set it in the "teacher" account where I logged in and he had his own log in that showed all the books available to him. Edited March 6, 2018 by exercise_guru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Just seeing this. My 8 yr old dyslexic wanted to "read" faster than Barton would allow. She's also very bright. We switched to Abecedarian, still sometime using Barton methods from time to time. It's working wonderfully! It is research based, and has a lot more repetition than say, AAR (which did NOT work). It really is a different way of doing what Barton and the other programs like it do, but without the tiles. (although we use them sometimes anyway). Phonographix is one of the few research proven methods (other than Barton) and it's cheap enough to be worth a try. And it feels more like "real" school work and moves faster. Edited March 7, 2018 by ktgrok 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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