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Educational Apathy


lexi
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Ok wonderful Hive minds. I need some help with my 10-year-old son. 

 

A little background:

 

He's my mathy child. He has always had a knack for numbers and does much of his math work in his head (and he gets it correct). We've been using RS math at his pace and he's now near the end of RS E this year. 

 

He's been hugely struggling with reading but we've been slowly making progress and he's a mostly fluent reader finally. He and I are both proud of his progress and he's enjoying reading finally!

 

He's rarely thrilled about school time but usually does his work without much complaint or discussion. He'd rather get it done and then go about his day. He really prefers to work on his own (he's a bit of an introvert). He is often on the lazy side and needs some prodding and encouragement to do his best work. 

 

But once he turned 10 this past December it's been a whole new ball game. He's very unpleasant and often argumentative. He doesn't put forth any effort into anything that he doesn't want to be doing. This includes school, chores, and even sports. If he's angry at me or a sibling he'll refuse meals and is just a surly unpleasant person. 

 

I don't know what to do about our school time. He's turning in very subpar work in every subject. Not to mention how hateful he can be toward me. He often yells at me. And I'm trying to be really patient, but I feel like my patience is just about gone now. 

 

Here's an example:

 

I graded his math assignment today. It was a page on probability. Every answer that he gave was 1/2. Every. single. problem. had this answer. Ironically, none of the correct answers were 1/2. So, he got every problem wrong. 

 

I was trying to go back through each problem to figure out where he went wrong because I truly couldn't understand how he could get this particular answer. 

 

I finally asked him if he just picked a number and wrote it down on every problem as the answer. 

 

Yes, he told me that's exactly what he did. He just picked a number, wrote it on every problem, and considered it done. 

 

Oh y'all. I'm so discouraged!

 

 

I've tried positive reinforcement. I've tried negative consequences. I've taken away privileges. He has to redo all assignments that are incorrect so he has no reason to blow through something and think that it's going to be done. Nope, he'll be redoing it. I don't even know why he tries to pull this. I've talked with him, encouraged him, and tried to have him help me come up with solutions. Nothing has helped so far. 

 

I believe that he's very lazy and if he has to spend more than 5 seconds actually thinking deeply about something he gives up and would rather move on. 

 

How do I address this? I truly don't believe it's a matter of not understanding the problems. He's doing this sort of thing in just about every subject. 

 

I cannot sit next to him for hours a day to watch every single problem. I'm pregnant and exhausted and I have a toddler and 4 other children who need me. He's draining all of my time and energy. 

 

Here are things I've done to try to help with our really rough school days: 

 

adequate exercise - he's a competitive swimmer and swims 3 days a week, jogs on the treadmill every morning, and plays golf (indoors) once or twice a week

adequate food/snacks - he's been going through growth spurts lately so I often encourage him to have healthy snacks so that he stays full and is not hangry

adequate sleep - we have a certain time that is lights out and I feel he gets a very reasonable amount of sleep for his age

short school times - I work with him 1 1/2 hour individually during our day. He has frequent breaks and lots of time to move around as we do work. 

 

 

What do I do if he continues to blow off school work and not try at anything? Even when I work with him one-on-one and try to prompt him through the assignments he often yells, "I DON'T KNOW!" at me and I don't feel like our time together is very productive. 

 

Pre-teens are hard. I need some help please. And some encouragement. Today was particularly rough. 

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How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at a time.  One slow, tiny, little bite.

 

If it helps, it seems to be a stage.  The most you can do is continually set the same expectations, require the same steps...and they do outgrow it and gain a work ethic.  It's just this inbetween time, the not-a-child-not-a-teen time that hits the hardest.  By the time they're teens, they are able to take leadership roles in their clubs and scouting, they can get jobs where they see it's not just mom/teacher who expects attention to detail and a work ethic.  But now?  Now is the foundation for those years and it's going to be maddening until they get through the first part of puberty.

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My son was friends with a boy who started acting this way in 4th grade. He had always been a little this way but it got very pronounced in 4th grade. He withdrew from the friendship with my son over the year.

 

Two years later he came across like he was depressed, he didn’t come across like he had an attitude like he had when he was younger.

 

I don’t know if his parents tried anything as far an getting an eval.

 

My son was having school issues in 4th that were some of the basis for their friendship, he had some known OT issues and then he had an evaluation. It found some minor issues but he got some special help at school. He spent parts of some classes with another teacher and he got a lower ratio, more structure, more 1:1 help, etc, and he had a major break from some stressors and he got encouragement from people who were not frustrated with him.

 

I was getting pretty frustrated with him and his regular teachers (he switched classes for 3 periods a day in 4th-6th) had some very frustrated with him, 2-3 amazingly frustrated with him, and 2-3 pretty chill with him in that period (4th-6th).

 

Now he is in 7th and he does actually care about school and grades. He still trends moody. He has a gut instinct to go “I don’t care†and get withdrawn, but he frequently comes out of it in 5 minutes, or 30 minutes, instead of never.

 

My son had some OT issues, some executive functioning issues, some anxiety issues, and had dug himself in a hole. But he is not diagnosed with ADHD or anxiety. It is more minor than that for him, it’s more of a combination.

 

They goal they had was for him to be out of the resource room (in that school district this was a very mild thing, where I live now they would call this “academic intervention†and resource room would imply a more intense thing) when he went to middle school. He is now in 7th grade. The set-up for typing is also much easier, and that makes it a lot easier for him.

 

I think that you are saying lazy is a sign to look at an eval. Maybe there is something that if you knew about it, it would make things easier.

 

I also have *no way* of knowing what your options are, but for what my son was in, it was kids who would not do well with all the expectations of a regular class all day, needing more help, more structure, more 1:1, more encouragement, etc. But, they were all socially involved with the regular class and it was not a big deal. A popular, gregarious boy with some attention issues was grouped with my son and it helped my son to be grouped with him I think. But anyway — if he might need more structure and more 1:1, it’s not impossible he could get it in public school. My son did have to get pretty low in elementary school before he got into this which is a huge negative though. Also he got a particularly nice and good teacher. It’s far from sunshine and roses but it is what happened with my son.

 

Another thing is my son is not the best at sports, and a lot of his identity at various times, from 4th grade to now, has been about being bad at sports, not caring, feeling left out of groups of boys based around sports, having an attitude of expecting to be left out even when he is not (but he thinks he is), etc.

 

This has been hard. What gets easier is that the very sporty boys stop doing everything and commit more to sports as their activities as they get to 5th/6th (at least in our town). So then some other activities start to be more full of kids who aren’t good at sports. Other interests for boys also have seemed to open up more, so he has more choices of interests besides sports or “kids who hate sports and have a bad attitude.†He even was on the swimming team part of this year. He asked to quit because he was having trouble getting his homework done. It is also helpful for him to have the option of taking more study halls now that he is older. It takes a lot of stress off of him. He first had a study hall when he was one of the only kids in 5th grade not to play an instrument, which was very disappointing to me, but it turned out to be very nice for him.

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:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Does he have outside interests that really fire him up?  DS has struggled with motivation academically since hitting pre-teen years but what has helped is when he has had outside interests he could look forward to. Things that fired him up.  It keeps him getting his work done (stuff that does not interest him)  so that he can do those things that really matter to him.

 

You say he has struggled with reading.  Could he be a stealth dyslexic?  Could he have developmental vision issues?  Either of those things could make academics a lot of work.  Once a child reaches a certain level the expectations for output increase significantly and the underlying issues may be harder to compensate for.  

 

For instance, even if he is reading mostly at grade level he may be having to put out a LOT more effort than a child without some sort of underlying issue.  It can become, in his mind, simply not worth the effort expended for the gains he perceives.  He may not even be aware of why academics are frustrating him.

 

Also, even though he an introvert, he may need interaction with others during lessons, even if that interaction is not something he is initially comfortable with.  I found that while DD prefers to be independent and do her own thing she was much better able to focus and find value in what she was doing when she was interacting with others (sometimes me but sometimes with peers or other teachers).  She has done well shifting to more on-line interactive classes.

 

Finally, some kids really go through a period where learning from a parent just does not work well.  They do much better with outside accountability.  This can often happen in the pre-teen years.  If you have the option to let him take an outside class or two (perhaps through Outschool doing a short term class to try it out without investing a lot of time and money), it might work better for both of you.

 

Have you tried talking to him, as in asking what he thinks the issues are and NOT jumping in to comment but simply listen and think about what he said (he may not know what to say or may not feel like he can truly share but if you try to genuinely listen without judgement it might help him think through this situation and help you come up with solutions).

 

How much choice does he have in materials and the schedule for his day?  Some kids get a lot more engaged if they have more choice.

 

Again, hugs.  These are not easy waters to navigate.

 

 

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With the pp — I totally agree it can be a phase!!!!!!!! If he is in any outside things, can you ask how he does? If he does fine in various ways but gives you an attitude at home — I really agree it can be a phase.

 

My son had issues in various settings and was getting more isolated and withdrawn. I couldn’t get him to go places, most of the time.

 

He was on more of a downward trend that needed to be changed before middle school.

 

The boy he was friends with seems to still be on a downward trend.

 

I think honestly, out of his whole grade, this boy and my son were the two boys this way the most. Much more than other kids the same age. A 3rd boy had a very low frustration tolerance for some things, and attitude issues, but from his mom I know he played soccer and went to Catholic religious education and did well with both, and had friends from both.

 

This was not the case for my son and the other boy.

 

Anyway — I think see things like how he does other places, how he does with your husband, etc.

 

My husband has gotten a lot more involved and I have gotten less involved in some ways with this son.

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I could also see he frustrated other adults who would not usually be getting frustrated with kids his age (not their own kid), and who weren’t frustrated with other kids. That seemed to really stand out to me like “this isn’t just about him having an attitude with his mom.â€

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10/11 wasn't a whole lot of fun, honestly. Things that were easy got hard. Things that were hard got harder. 

Some things that helped (aside from food, exercise and lots and lots of patience)

 

1) More control over their own work. Both boys began to grade some of their own work (exceptions were quizzes and tests). I encouraged them to look at how something was solved, and not to focus on the fact that they got it wrong. We talked a lot about how being wrong is often a better learning experience than being right.

 

2)Customizing some curriculum. Writing took off when I took the book I was using and adapted it to what they wanted to do with their writing. That practice continues to work for me.

 

3) Setting limits on complaining and carrying on. We worked out a fee for complaints over a certain limit. Payment was agreed upon by all, and I set up a system to monitor how many complaints they had left on the day before they had to pay my listening fee. I didn't get to collect very often.

 

4) Extending a lot of grace. It isn't easy when something that has been easy suddenly stumps you--and math can be one of those subjects that goes from easy to hard without a great transition. Latin is another such monster. It's easy for a kid to figure he's not smart anymore because he's not getting it right. And he may not care because he can't get it right. It's a good time to start reaffirming the need for mistakes, for messing up, for having days when things just are no good, and learning how to deal with the associated emotions. 

 

5) Allowing sub-par work. Yep. Not everything in school is worth doing to the best of your ability. Sometimes mustering the energy to care is not worth it. Sometimes it's better to just put something aside and work on it later. We did a lot of putting math away until the next day, or trying it after we'd done something else. And I didn't insist that everything be right when it was finished. I did a lot of reminding both boys that I didn't expect them to master things the first time they tried them, or the second, or the third. Some things might not make sense one week, but would be easy the next week. Or not. It was okay.

 

They came through it. They certainly still have their days, but we get along much better at fourteen than we did at ten and eleven.

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Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

 

I do think he could be a stealth dyslexic. I don’t have a lot of options for testing that don’t cost an arm and a leg. I’ve tried to modify his school, using audiobooks and do things to help him so he doesn’t feel frustrated and overworked.

 

He is extremely engaged in outside activities such as golf and swimming. His coaches find him to be polite and enthusiastic. He tries very hard and is very motivated in those sports. We also joined a new church that had more kids his age and the age of my oldest child. He’s developing friendships and is enjoying those activities as well. He looks forward to church and seeing his friends. I feel like he’s very involved and outgoing.

 

So I feel like his apathy and moodiness is mostly at home. And yes, mostly directed toward me.

 

I have let him choose when during he day he does his school so he does have some say in his schedule. I have tried listening to him and asking him for solutions. And I’ve been trying to try some outsourced classes. He now does BJU science online and Veritas Press self paced history. That’s going well. So I do feel he’s responding better to people other than me right now.

 

My hubby has offered to try to do some of his schooling or maybe grade papers and give him feedback. Basically anything to give the two of us more of a break from each other.

 

I know it is probably a phase as he is known as a friendly kid who is engaged during his other activities.

 

But I’m just trying to figure out how to best handle things as we navigate these years. I just worry that I’m not handling it the best way. And sometimes I feel very discouraged.

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10/11 wasn't a whole lot of fun, honestly. Things that were easy got hard. Things that were hard got harder.

Some things that helped (aside from food, exercise and lots and lots of patience)

 

1) More control over their own work. Both boys began to grade some of their own work (exceptions were quizzes and tests). I encouraged them to look at how something was solved, and not to focus on the fact that they got it wrong. We talked a lot about how being wrong is often a better learning experience than being right.

 

2)Customizing some curriculum. Writing took off when I took the book I was using and adapted it to what they wanted to do with their writing. That practice continues to work for me.

 

3) Setting limits on complaining and carrying on. We worked out a fee for complaints over a certain limit. Payment was agreed upon by all, and I set up a system to monitor how many complaints they had left on the day before they had to pay my listening fee. I didn't get to collect very often.

 

4) Extending a lot of grace. It isn't easy when something that has been easy suddenly stumps you--and math can be one of those subjects that goes from easy to hard without a great transition. Latin is another such monster. It's easy for a kid to figure he's not smart anymore because he's not getting it right. And he may not care because he can't get it right. It's a good time to start reaffirming the need for mistakes, for messing up, for having days when things just are no good, and learning how to deal with the associated emotions.

 

5) Allowing sub-par work. Yep. Not everything in school is worth doing to the best of your ability. Sometimes mustering the energy to care is not worth it. Sometimes it's better to just put something aside and work on it later. We did a lot of putting math away until the next day, or trying it after we'd done something else. And I didn't insist that everything be right when it was finished. I did a lot of reminding both boys that I didn't expect them to master things the first time they tried them, or the second, or the third. Some things might not make sense one week, but would be easy the next week. Or not. It was okay.

 

They came through it. They certainly still have their days, but we get along much better at fourteen than we did at ten and eleven.

These are really helpful ideas. Thanks!

 

I went through this a little bit with my oldest. Now at 12 she’s usually much more pleasant and homeschooling is much smoother. I’m looking forward to when my son comes out on the other side and we can enjoy homeschooling once again.

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But once he turned 10 this past December it's been a whole new ball game. He's very unpleasant and often argumentative. He doesn't put forth any effort into anything that he doesn't want to be doing. This includes school, chores, and even sports. If he's angry at me or a sibling he'll refuse meals and is just a surly unpleasant person.

...

I believe that he's very lazy and if he has to spend more than 5 seconds actually thinking deeply about something he gives up and would rather move on.

...

I'm pregnant and exhausted and I have a toddler and 4 other children who need me. He's draining all of my time and energy.

...

adequate exercise - he's a competitive swimmer and swims 3 days a week, jogs on the treadmill every morning, and plays golf (indoors) once or twice a week

He is 10, college application is a long time away. With competitive swimming he probably has stepwise milestones he can aim for. With academics, what are the milestones he can aim for?

 

My DS12 is laid back to the point of laziness sometimes as in leaving his dirty cup next to him from breakfast until dinner time because DS13 would sometimes just bring both cups to the kitchen. So DS12 does delay some tasks hoping that DS13 would do it for him. However if I were to believe that everything that DS12 does is due to laziness, my DS12 would have just given up ages ago because he won’t see any point in putting an effort since it would still be “substandard†compared to DS13. It won’t be fair to give a dog a name and hang him.

 

I have only two kids who are both introverts. They want mommy time individually that is purely leisure. Things like watching silly YouTube videos with one of them or going grocery shopping with one of them or cooking dinner with one of them. They are tired of mommy as the “academics pusher†or “drill sergeant†and want some fun leisure time with parents. We didn’t do much academics in 5th and 6th grade and it didn’t hurt either of my kids.

 

DS12 went through a hyper whiny phase and he is usually whiny. We just ignore him and let him whine to his hearts content in his comfy cozy corner by himself. My husband was all riled up and I told him ignoring works. As long as DS12 wasn’t throwing things or hitting someone, he was welcomed to whine to himself (e.g. about homework being too hard before opening his workbook) while the rest of us has headsets on. We do address valid complaints like lack of space to do work (if he need more space for a task), swim goggles being uncomfortable (he outgrew a pair) and stuff like that.

 

I didn’t bother to do school work from 3rd grade to 10th grade in public school. 11th and 12th grade work was what counted for college entrance exams so that was when I put in some effort. The thing is academics as in school work does not drive me. College to me was a checkbox as a financial security and gatekeeper to some jobs I like to be in. So obviously I make sure I did well enough to get into engineering school which was what I wanted and then make sure I graduate so that I could get into the jobs I wanted. I went for postgrad school to pursue jobs I am interested in that has much lower barrier to entry with that postgraduate qualification then to climb my way slowly up with my bachelors.

My husband worked hard in public schools to qualify for scholarships and to get into elite public schools. So he had a goal to work for. I didn’t need scholarships so that was not a useful carrot in my case. I didn’t have any wants either and my parents provided for all my needs so extra money wasn’t needed.

 

My oldest boy is 13 and he has no idea what he wants to be. He ask me what is the compulsory subjects for college admissions. He isn’t aiming for any selective schools other than Stanford because it is within commuting distance. If Stanford is as far as UCB is to us, he won’t have consider it as a reach school and would just drop it from his potential college list. While he is more hardworking than me and less hardworking than my husband (no scholarship carrot to dangle), I don’t expect him to go all out on effort unless he finds something he is passionate about. My relatives are mainly generalist except for my uncle who is a chef. So I really don’t expect that level of passion from my kids.

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If dad is in the picture, what does he think? This sort of attitude adjustment imo works best coming from a valued male authority figure.

 

Ds (also 10) does his best work for dad.

My hubby is going to sit down and talk with him. And I think he’s going to get more involved in homeschooling our son for a time. I don’t feel I’m making much headway.

 

Unfortunately my hubby is out of state this week. That’s probably why I feel so overwhelmed and discouraged.

 

But I told my hubby he was going to need to take over and help me. I’m hoping that by having some one on one time with dad it will help a lot.

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AIf he wants to be more independent from you because you are his mother, he may not like to need 1:1 help from you. It could make him feel bad. But he might not mind if it’s another person.

 

With my son at times he needs and wants my help, but he resents that he needs it. Now at 12 he is fine if it’s pretty much on his own terms, he asks for help, he decides what kind of help he needs, and when he doesn’t want anymore help.

 

It helps that he cares about school, so if he needs my help, for me to say “look, you’re being rude, I’m not going to help you right now,†that is actually a consequence for him, because he wants to do his work. It’s not that I want him to do his work and he doesn’t care.

 

That’s been a long process here and some of it I think is maturity. Also my son is in public school. He just has needed a lot of help with schoolwork at various times.

 

If he’s not quite a fluent reader, I think there are things you can look at that are free to get some ideas. Elizabeth B’s phonics page, etc. I like readingrockets.org a lot, too. It sounds like you have done a lot already, sometimes it can take a lot and a long time, though.

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There’s also been a bit of a transfer of school being my thing, to school being his thing. For a little bit I had to be less invested for him to take ownership. He wouldn’t take ownership if it was really my thing.

 

It’s very hard.

 

I think there are a few things where it’s not okay to let it be more in his court. But other times — maybe he doesn’t do as I wish or as I think he is capable of. But it’s his choice, and overall he is making good choices at this point.

 

I feel like he didn’t want to take ownership or responsibility, and wanted to blame others for his problems, but if I want him to take ownership then I can’t do that, or it will be my thing and his thing, and I already know how that will go.

 

It’s not that I would say to be hands-off, at all; but in some ways, yes.

 

He was able to have accountability from other people in some ways, which was good for him.

 

He also will do better with my husband on things where I could say or do the same thing, but he won’t take it as well from me. I think that just is what it is, and it is better lately.

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Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

 

I do think he could be a stealth dyslexic. I don’t have a lot of options for testing that don’t cost an arm and a leg. I’ve tried to modify his school, using audiobooks and do things to help him so he doesn’t feel frustrated and overworked.

 

He is extremely engaged in outside activities such as golf and swimming. His coaches find him to be polite and enthusiastic. He tries very hard and is very motivated in those sports. We also joined a new church that had more kids his age and the age of my oldest child. He’s developing friendships and is enjoying those activities as well. He looks forward to church and seeing his friends. I feel like he’s very involved and outgoing.

 

So I feel like his apathy and moodiness is mostly at home. And yes, mostly directed toward me.

 

I have let him choose when during he day he does his school so he does have some say in his schedule. I have tried listening to him and asking him for solutions. And I’ve been trying to try some outsourced classes. He now does BJU science online and Veritas Press self paced history. That’s going well. So I do feel he’s responding better to people other than me right now.

 

My hubby has offered to try to do some of his schooling or maybe grade papers and give him feedback. Basically anything to give the two of us more of a break from each other.

 

I know it is probably a phase as he is known as a friendly kid who is engaged during his other activities.

 

But I’m just trying to figure out how to best handle things as we navigate these years. I just worry that I’m not handling it the best way. And sometimes I feel very discouraged.

 

 

If dad is in the picture, what does he think? This sort of attitude adjustment imo works best coming from a valued male authority figure.

 

Ds (also 10) does his best work for dad.

 

 

My hubby is going to sit down and talk with him. And I think he’s going to get more involved in homeschooling our son for a time. I don’t feel I’m making much headway.

 

Unfortunately my hubby is out of state this week. That’s probably why I feel so overwhelmed and discouraged.

 

But I told my hubby he was going to need to take over and help me. I’m hoping that by having some one on one time with dad it will help a lot.

 

This is good to hear. Can your hubby talk with him at least briefly on the phone this week about respecting and obeying mom? I always found that whenever there was an issue with my son, having dad step in to remind him of the boundaries and respecting mom was really key. Dads are so important here! 

 

One thing I found though was that "reasoning" with a child this age can tend to make them think they are on the same level as mom (thus diminishing their respect for you--because you only "reason" with someone on your level.) I found that fewer words and walking away, expecting instructions to be followed was sometimes what I needed to do. 

 

I do think the math thing where he gave the same answer for every problem is odd, and I'd probably ask him why he chose to do that (in a very non-accusing, more curious, kind of way). If he just didn't understand and didn't want to ask for help, or what. Or I'd assume he didn't understand, work a few of the problems together on the white board, and then send him to do the rest on his own when it appears he can do them. 

 

I do think looking into learning disabilities/dyslexia is a good idea.

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I don't have any answers, but I have to laugh at the 1/2 answer.  If he did it in the spirit of what my older daughter"s personality, he was sending a message-- whether it's that he feels that the math is meaningless, he doesn't like the math program, or just in general he wants more control over his life. My daughter was SO big on the needing control aspect of her life. She was never homeschooled - it would have been too painful. But she actively subverted her school work for years to show that no one can tell her what to do. We survived, barely. :-) 

 

Another example was my son in second grade. They had a journal they had to write in every morning at ps. His twin sister happily wrote about whatever every morning. But he eventually got sick of it. The last two entries were plays on "I don't know what to write" spelled backwards, then as anagrams, and then finally a sinister "I don't think our teacher is even going to read this".   He felt like there was no reward for the effort and it was all meaningless.

 

Maybe your son feeling like that math is meaningless? I sit by my 12 year olds still -- I give support, commiseration, and high fives when they answer a really challenging problem. Math is like a communal event and they are really invested in doing well and getting praise for their problem solving. I think if they did it alone all the time, they would probably keep doing it but it would be less enjoyable, they would rush through it to get done, my dd would make many more mistakes. And if it was my older daughter she would absolutely turn in work that was all wrong so she could rush off to do something else. Or write a manifesto about how kids shouldn't be forced to do math against their will.

 

I see now you have a lot of younger ones.  That definitely makes the one on one time more challenging. 

 

The pre teen brain fog also does make suddenly easy things hard.  I will watch my dd sit there and try so hard to add or multiply things she's done a million times before, and just get stuck. The next day is usually better, but it happens at least once a week that she literally regresses a math level for the day. It's so weird. 

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I do think he could be a stealth dyslexic. I don’t have a lot of options for testing that don’t cost an arm and a leg. I’ve tried to modify his school, using audiobooks and do things to help him so he doesn’t feel frustrated and overworked.

 

Do you have a Scottish Rite clinic near you? They offer free testing and reading intervention.

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