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Yesterday I went to an open house at a local "literacy center".  I talked to the owner and chatted a little bit with her about one of my kids who has a hard time copying words.  I brought it up because I've been thinking about having his working memory tested to see if working memory is the root cause.  We talked about his ability to do mental math (excellent), play games that involve working memory (he is excellent at the games she brought up), and other things.  Then I told her how hard it was for him to learn our phone number.   She told me that she thought this sounded like a symbol problem (can't remember if she said "symbolic working memory", "symbol imagery" or symbol something else).  Until last night I had been thinking of it as purely a working memory issue, but now I'm wondering about this symbol issue.

 

Does anyone know of a way to screen this at home?  I saw this video (

), but I don't understand how it's different from visual memory.  Can a SLP assess it?

 

How are symbolic imagery/memory and visual memory different?

 

Do you know of ways to work on this at home?  Lindamood Bell's Seeing Stars program dominates my google search.  Are there other options?

 

Does the Barton program address this skill (I hate to go off on a tangent if unnecessary)?

 

Quick overview of this kiddo:  Can read, can sound out unknown words, did several levels of AAR,  has been stuck on AAS Level 1- knows all the sound cards and rules forward and backward and just cannot use them when trying to spell.  We finished LiPS earlier this year (he didn't pass part C of the Barton screening) and have started Barton (we're on Level 2).  When he tries to copy a word he only feels comfortable doing it one letter at a time (and it ends up being illegible because he writes while looking at the other word so he doesn't lose his place).  I tried working with him on breaking words into chunks (via syllables, etc.) in order to copy and it is just too hard for him.   Smart kid - advanced in math, budding engineer.  No other LDs besides what appears to be dyslexia.  

 

Look forward to hearing what you all know about this.  

 

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How is his handwriting? Is it legible ? can he copy words from another paper? can he write words down if he is thinking of a story even if they are not spelled correctly? Does he have that "inner voice" can he talk outloud and explain how he is doing a problem to himself?  Can you read a short story to him and then have him sum it up answering questions like Who what when where? Because that gives you an idea . These are all skills that really help determine whether it is a visual spatial issue, language issue,working memory or something else. Since Dyslexia is indicated I suspect his working memory may be fine. the symbols of words are tricky and you might find that as his reading comes he will take off in the other areas. I used snapwords with my son who does not have dyslexia they were very helpful in getting through those initial elements to flow over the page more smoothly.

 

Working memory does play a part in remembering phone numbers . My daughter who can remember her 16 library card number still sings the song " My mom is..... this is my phone number........." " my name is ........ this is my address...."   There are some pretty easy ways to test working memory Here are a few things to search

Mental Math ( manipulating numbers while remembering what you are working on)

NBack ,

digit span etc,

if you put objects on a table and say "give me the spoon then the orange then the ball then the shoe"  wait a minute and then have him hand you those things in that order. Start with one object and move up. 

you can also have him go in a different room and get you three different things that you name.

Playing any of the memory card games will also give you a very good idea.

Hunting in the ispy books if you let him see what he is supposed to hunt and then cover the card.

 

All these things test working memory. You mentioned he is excellent at mental math and I am sure that is purely spatial working memory. I mean math is symbolic that is the part of the brain your mind plays with the abstract. This sounds more like a vision, letter , fine motor issue and for that it is very tricky to puzzle out. 

 

Be patient on the spelling. Reading is a whole different skill and far more important. Let him build confidence there and with spelling simple fry words( use snapwords) . IF word wheels won't ruin your barton work you could get the wordfamily word wheels and ladders. Give him a lot of fun exposure to the basic CVC words CVCE words etc then see if it improve at he build automatic recall for those things. Spelling requires that a lot of stuff is rock solid and stored for easy retrieval.  I think 3rd grade is when spelling starts to integrate for many kids and some it takes longer. 

 

Also make sure someone has checked his vision because some kiddos really have vision problems who have dyslexia and vision therapy can change their life. 

 

My son has major challenges copying words and writing in general. He definitely has dysgraphia.  Surprisingly he is decent at spelling in his in written work and on spelling tests. I worked on this for years with him and and it took me a long time to realize it was because he was taking an image of the letter each time rather than building the motion in his longterm motor memory. He improved once I got him a tracing board and had him trace pictures with it and do other fine motor work not related to letters such as tracing symbols and writing symbols. We did a lot of tracking exercises going up and over printed text with a pencil. We did a lot of dot to dot and a lot of color by numbers.  It was a long process and we are barely getting there so it might take you awhile to puzzle out what is going on with your son. Look at what he can produce and remember when actual letters aren't involved. 

 

Now that I have said all of this my son tested very low on working memory so I have looked at how to build that up. It takes time and I have found that sometimes I stumble across a skill that needs work so that he can better use the memory that he has ( like building automaticity in handwriting and fine motor) . 

 

 

  

 

"Spot it" would be a good game to see if he has good visual recall with symbols rather than letters

 

I did a quick search on video games and working memory they suggest doing games where the person has to adapt to new stimuli like driving responding to road signs etc.But I have read that Mario and games that are not 1st person where your character is sweeping left to right improves reading and visual tracking as well as working memory. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4859063/

 

http://mentalfloss.com/article/64418/11-unforgettable-games-improve-your-memory

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201410/can-action-video-games-boost-short-term-memory

Edited by exercise_guru
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How is his handwriting? Is it legible ? can he copy words from another paper? Well,  writing done for the sake of penmanship is okay (printing was not easy, so he writes in cursive) if he knows how to spell the words.  Words that need to be copied are often nearly illegible. He tries to copy words one letter at a time instead of breaking them up.  Cursive seemed to click because the program we did had heavy instruction for the movements (like start at the baseline, swing up to the midline, drop down to the baseline type instruction).  I think his pencil grip is good but he's had trouble using the right amount of pressure when writing.  He seems to have swung from too much to too little.  I have an OT eval schedule to get an outside opinion on whether there's anything going on.   

 

can he write words down if he is thinking of a story even if they are not spelled correctly?  Can but doesn't want to.  If I ask him to write it's always with the caveat of "I'll be proud of any spelling risk you're willing to take."  But, he doesn't like the feeling of not being able, is also a bit of a perfectionist, and I think the biggest thing is that sometimes he can't read back what he's written. One thing that came up often before doing LiPS is that he would write all the consonants of a word but none of the vowels.  So 'every' would become 'vry' and he'd be very frustrated going back and trying to read his own work because he'd have to pause and figure out if he meant very or every.  His spelling tries have included way more vowels since completing LiPS so I know there are some good things happening.  

 

Does he have that "inner voice" can he talk outloud and explain how he is doing a problem to himself? Yes.  But often there are word recall issues that result in "oh, you know mom, the thing that <insert description>.

 

  Can you read a short story to him and then have him sum it up answering questions like Who what when where? Because that gives you an idea . He can - both for stories he's heard, and for stories he's read.  

 

These are all skills that really help determine whether it is a visual spatial issue, language issue,working memory or something else. Since Dyslexia is indicated I suspect his working memory may be fine. the symbols of words are tricky and you might find that as his reading comes he will take off in the other areas. I used snapwords with my son who does not have dyslexia they were very helpful in getting through those initial elements to flow over the page more smoothly.

This is what I thought - that as the reading came the other things would take off - but it's been so puzzling because he already reads well.  He has good comprehension for reading to himself (he recently read a book about chess, written for adults, and was able to give me summaries of the strategies discussed).  He tends to skip small words, substitute words with a near meaning (like home for house), and occasionally re-phrase things when reading out loud but he can read smoothly and clearly with good inflection, and has for a couple years now.  

 

Working memory does play a part in remembering phone numbers . My daughter who can remember her 16 library card number still sings the song " My mom is..... this is my phone number........." " my name is ........ this is my address...."   There are some pretty easy ways to test working memory Here are a few things to search

Mental Math ( manipulating numbers while remembering what you are working on)

NBack ,

digit span etc,

if you put objects on a table and say "give me the spoon then the orange then the ball then the shoe"  wait a minute and then have him hand you those things in that order. Start with one object and move up. 

you can also have him go in a different room and get you three different things that you name.

Playing any of the memory card games will also give you a very good idea.

Hunting in the ispy books if you let him see what he is supposed to hunt and then cover the card.

 

All these things test working memory. You mentioned he is excellent at mental math and I am sure that is purely spatial working memory. I mean math is symbolic that is the part of the brain your mind plays with the abstract. This sounds more like a vision, letter , fine motor issue and for that it is very tricky to puzzle out.   Hmmm!  Fine motor is always on my mind (hence the OT eval I scheduled, it's not horrible but it seems like there could be something there).  What you're saying here is possibly making some sense. When he started playing piano we finally got rid of the retained reflex thing where his tongue would come out when he was writing (he had torticollis as a baby and didn't creep/crawl normally - we did movement therapy and I learned to test the reflexes so I know that at least the ones I know how to test are now integrated).  We also did vision therapy after the reflexes were integrated, and in June of last year I had 2nd opinion on the vision to rule out any remaining issues.  He is farsighted, and glasses definitely have helped with eye fatigue.  I'll take him in a couple of months for a check and I'll ask him to screen for VT needs again.     His spatial skills are excellent.  

 

Be patient on the spelling. Reading is a whole different skill and far more important. Let him build confidence there and with spelling simple fry words( use snapwords) . IF word wheels won't ruin your barton work you could get the wordfamily word wheels and ladders. Give him a lot of fun exposure to the basic CVC words CVCE words etc then see if it improve at he build automatic recall for those things. Spelling requires that a lot of stuff is rock solid and stored for easy retrieval.  I think 3rd grade is when spelling starts to integrate for many kids and some it takes longer.   Yeah, 3rd is where we're at and things that I was feeling a little "let's wait and see" about are becoming priorities.  

 

Also make sure someone has checked his vision because some kiddos really have vision problems who have dyslexia and vision therapy can change their life. 

 

My son has major challenges copying words and writing in general. He definitely has dysgraphia.  Surprisingly he is decent at spelling in his in written work and on spelling tests. I worked on this for years with him and and it took me a long time to realize it was because he was taking an image of the letter each time rather than building the motion in his longterm motor memory. He improved once I got him a tracing board and had him trace pictures with it and do other fine motor work not related to letters such as tracing symbols and writing symbols. We did a lot of tracking exercises going up and over printed text with a pencil. We did a lot of dot to dot and a lot of color by numbers.  It was a long process and we are barely getting there so it might take you awhile to puzzle out what is going on with your son. Look at what he can produce and remember when actual letters aren't involved.  Well,  back to that fine motor work!  Maybe we're in the same boat.  Thanks for sharing this. I'm going to try to integrate some of this into our days now, and it'll be interesting to see what the OT eval says.  I bet when he's focused on just making the letters he can muster up enough control to make things look good, but when there's more to think about he just can't put the same effort into the letters.  Luckily our insurance has good coverage for OT so maybe I can get a little extra help.  

 

Now that I have said all of this my son tested very low on working memory so I have looked at how to build that up. It takes time and I have found that sometimes I stumble across a skill that needs work so that he can better use the memory that he has ( like building automaticity in handwriting and fine motor) . Well,  I think we have some auditory memory issues (and we started using Hearbuilder about a month ago.  Spatial memory seems to be excellent.  Visual, well I'm not sure - I think that's really what I was trying to learn more about by posting here.  "Symbol Imagery" sounds like visual memory to me and I do feel like maybe there is something I'm missing.  

 

 

  

 

"Spot it" would be a good game to see if he has good visual recall with symbols rather than letters.  Well,  as far as I'm concerned the more games the better.  We'll try this.  Thank you for all your details in your reply to me.  

 

I did a quick search on video games and working memory they suggest doing games where the person has to adapt to new stimuli like driving responding to road signs etc.But I have read that Mario and games that are not 1st person where your character is sweeping left to right improves reading and visual tracking as well as working memory.   

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4859063/

 

http://mentalfloss.com/article/64418/11-unforgettable-games-improve-your-memory

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201410/can-action-video-games-boost-short-term-memory

Edited for typos formatting

Edited by KaleSprouts
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Sounds like you want a psych eval. They get that info as part of IQ testing. My dd was very similar, and she turned out to have ADHD, low processing speed, and poor word retrieval. There's a test for it. We used a neuropsych, so it was something he had on hand. I don't know that it's a common thing to run during a regular psych eval.

 

Think, Talk, Laugh!: Increase Verbal Processing Speed and Language Organization Skills by Melissa Mullin Ph.D. (2016-05-23)  This book is EXCELLENT.

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Vision therapy specifically by a developmental optometrist who treats visual processing issues can help improve visual memory. Our son’s was at the bottom of the scale and he could not recognize letters or sight words with any fluency, remember phone numbers, math facts or spelling. The therapy made a huge difference. Working memory is its own problem that requires a lot of mental effort to stay focused and not lose your place in tasks - also dealing with that here. But the visual memory was the culprit in the problem with written information.

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KaleSprouts You are on the right track and asking the right question. I am in a rush today I will pm you later or post more here.

 

My son had a retained reflex that was spotted by a SLP regarding toungue jaw disassociation. Once he showed us how to resolve that my son took of in R pronunciation. So yes I am a big big fan of retained reflexes. Piano is outstanding stay with it if you can because I have personally witnessed how amazing it is for brain development with my daughter ( she has taken 5 years) my son is in guitar and I strongly believe musical training resolves and builds language and spatial reasoning. I think the key for the OT vs vision is see how your son performs with drawing and anything that does not involve words. Try to whittle down what you are seeing to discrete skills ) seperate language and just visual motor to get an idea where the glitch happens. That is far harder than it sounds. For my son it was both. He could not draw a straight line, square or circle before Vision therapy and he could not think of the words and keep them in his mind while he recalled the spelling for them and then recalled how to form the letters naturally. So basically we had to work on vision therapy to get the lines and shapes written nicely, then we had to work on Getty and Dubay and a lot of whiteboard on the wall shoulder writing to get the shapes of the letters into his mind. Then we had to build automaticity in the handwriting so he didn't have to think of formation while he was writing, now that automaticity is happening in dictating letters ( not words) I am moving to copy work and then this summer I will teach him a bravewriter course to build language expression through handwriting. Then I will nail down spelling because it comes way after all of this. My son is able to do all of it I just had to take the long road and teach the skills in a far more discrete way then my daughters learned. 

 

 

 

I think that 2nd to 3rd grade is a good time to consider a pshych eval for a lot of good reasons. All of my kiddos were tested for GATE ( gifted and talented) through private Pshychs even though I homeschooled the first two. The IQ test give you a very good snapshot of their strengths and it helps tease out areas that they are not so naturally talented. It will take a snapshot visual processing,spatial reasoning,  working memory, Coding, Fluid Reasoning,  If there are other concerns you will be able to look at those by filling out a behavior sheet. There may be hidden ADHD , autism whatever but just the achievement testing alone will help you know how to play to your sons strengths and what areas he might need extra time or accommodations. There are additional subtests that help tease out more in the visual spatial reasoning. If you have good insurance I would also encourage you to have a SLP test your son for expressive and receptive language. There may just be one area of phonological awareness that he doesn't have nailed down. Once I had the testing I worked to nail down the discrete skills and build them up. I made sure that I was getting progress in those micro skills and then the traditional school work in math , reading, and now even writing started to take off. 

 

IF you have an IPAD there are a lot of good apps that you can explore that would help you a lot. Myscript for sure 

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Well I will try to make the story short. My son could not produce any of the 21 R sounds. He went to Speech in school for a year that did nothing. Then we tested for retained reflexes and he had several that were partial and a few that were not resolved. He then went to 6 months of private SLP articulation therapy with a "R speech buddy" device  and this worked on getting the tongue to form a tip and sweep across the top of the mouth ( you can google it. ) But now I see in hindsight that as he swept the tongue across the mouth he would drop his jaw. He could kind of make an R but we had to take a break for Vision therapy.  I was still working on the retained reflexes intensely and ILS. I was starting to think the whole thing was a con but kept at it. I think over a years time the retained reflexes mostly got there. Then last summer we sought out a a very specialized and very good SLP because the R thing was really discouraging my son. He evaluated and on the 4th appointment said " your son has a retained reflex when he moves his tongue his jaw moves with it" He called it just that " The tongue jaw disassociation reflex". So  now we have been in therapy for about 6 months with this therapist. We had to work on moving the tongue without dropping the jaw. We worked on grating exercises with cherrios to stabilize the jaw while the tongue moved to produce the proper position and sound. I likened it to that movie Karate Kid where he waxes all the cars. I bet my son waxed a 1000 cars it was so tedious and needed big rewards over a few months but then the R sounds started to fall into place.  It has been slow methodical constant process of targeting the location of his tongue in the mouth with a small probe and having his tongue hit that part of his mouth while stabilizing his jaw. The progress has been slow and steady. He can now perfectly articulate many of the R sounds and they are integrating into his normal speech pattern. He will likely graduate in the next few months as the R's are falling into place each time we go in. So I now really do believe in retained reflexes and the work that is done with them. 

 

 

And just writing this makes me feel like a good mom ( but a tired mom)  because I have stuck with this through thick and thin for a long time to help my son. The progress in many areas is slow but steady. I am glad I dug for the answers and sought out professionals to help. I have also learned a lot from this therapist about trying to remediate a micro micro skill. I mean it was down to this tiny muscle in my son's jaw and a tiny muscle in my sons tongue. I have applied this technique to other areas. Like what is the smallest skill that is stopping things? How can I find a way to build through it. Its a lot like how the Arrowsmith model works. Kids with symbol processing problems they have trace symbols and then more complex symbols to teach the brain to encode symbols through the motor system. I did do this with my son but it was out of desperation as I had tried everything else and the kid needs to be able to write a legible sentence with automaticity. We did that all the way through the year we were doing retained reflexes and Vision Therapy and then I moved on to shoulder writing and white board writing and then I moved to Getty and Dubay and then we finally blasted through and could write a set of legible letters. Slow micro isolation that nearly drove me crazy but it worked. 

 

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Retained reflexes are indeed an interesting topic, and I think your story, exercise_guru,  about the tongue jaw disassociation reflex is the most interesting one I've ever heard.    My kids are twins and both had torticollis when they were born and I don't know if they would have crawled on their own a lot or not, but PT didn't help us fast enough to fully resolve the issue in time for the crawling months and they both went from rolling to walking.  In the process of doing integration exercises DD was complaining of neck pain and so I took her to a special chiro for the upper cervical spine who was able to figure out what was going on and help her.  After a few adjustments TONS of things changes so quickly for her - including some vision issues she had.    I totally get where you're coming from about finding the small, sometimes out of the box, things that need to be resolved or broken down to components.

 

 

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Exercise_guru,  How are you using MyScript?  It looks interesting.  My son is using Dragon Naturally speaking so that he can get his ideas out without the spelling/writing component bogging him down (it works when he slows his speech down the right amount), but MyScript looks interesting for some other things or potentially down the road.  

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With retained palmar reflexes, sticking out the tongue while writing. Is an indicator.  Though the tongue also moves, as if they are writing with it?

 

The palmar reflexes have a direct connection with the 'oro-facial muscles'.  

So that their is a strong correlation between handwriting and speech difficulties.

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Reflexes are a funny thing. I swear every time we work through them we find another person who tests and finds more. And my dd would do her exercises, get one integrated, get stressed with her college stuff, and the whole thing would fall/revert out again. 

 

I'll try the palmer reflex test on him and see. i'm pretty sure the PT checked that, but I've had it happen where the next person checks it and it's there when the first person said it wasn't, sigh. 

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Pan isn't that nuts? You want to hear something wierd. My son had two weeks where his handwriting reverted back two years in December. Then it came back. I still can't figure out what happened but it was crazy. I shed some real tears because of the painstaking fine motor we had done for so long. I mean it looked like primitive toddler handwriting and then it was fine. The brain is an enigma. 

 

 Kale sprouts are your kids young enough to superman swing on the swingset( you know belly) because that would help with missing crawling. my PT had a bellyboard( like a scateboard with wheels but goes any direction) and she would have my son crawling on the belly board around picking up things with tweezers. It was grand fun but I have floors that would never allow that. She also had a body swing where he would lay on his belly and draw pictures on a paper on the floor. I have no idea where I could hang a belly swing either. I also like have been use a yoga ball and crawl up on his belly and back.  I also think Basketball any ball really biking any activity that requires some coordination helps to keep reflexes integrated. Any music instrument helps. My son has stuck with the guitar but they are learning the recorder in school and he will start trumpet next year.

 

About the ipad I received one for Christmas. my script stylus is a keyboard app that works any app  I really like to use it with Notes plus but there are some programs where you can take a picture of the worksheet and write on it. I have my son use his finger because I am working on automaticity and training with feedback. With a little training my son can write pretty fast and the software recognizes even some pretty sloppy handwriting and converts it to typed text. I go back and edit it but its pretty good. I thin k the spell check even works but I can't remember.  My goal is to get him thinking about what he is writing and as long as he is following the correct letter formation it allows him to not think about perfect legibility. Notes plus is nice because its easy to switch between dictation and myscript if they get tired. For now the finger is good because it keeps him moving and integrating that visual spatial memory.  I am researching a stylus that will work with our regular ipad. There are a few that are bluetooth but haven't found one with good reviews. 

 

 

Dictation hasn't worked for us so far because of that blasted R.  The dictation software that comes with the ipad is pretty good. I have dragon but can't get it to install on our new computer. I am hoping once we finish speech therapy I can use dictation software but it has proven far more frustrating for my son. I am also working on his typing and I scribe for him since I can understand what he is saying.  We may be on the other side by then. I noticed my son has been spontaneously writing notes to me and writing down things he wants to remember. This has never happened before so maybe we are making a breakthrough.  Its often three steps forward and one step back so we will see. 

 

 

 

 

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With retained palmar reflexes, sticking out the tongue while writing. Is an indicator.  Though the tongue also moves, as if they are writing with it?

 

The palmar reflexes have a direct connection with the 'oro-facial muscles'.  

So that their is a strong correlation between handwriting and speech difficulties.

 

 

Yes,  What's interesting is that the Palmer reflex appeared integrated for him but obviously something was still going on.  I'm convinced that it was something about using the fingers independently and developing strength independently that helped.  Last year I ended up with a herniated disk in my neck (related to car accidents) and as I was healing I noticed that when I played the piano I would sometimes get a pain up a muscle that goes up where my jaw hinges.  There's definitely a lot of interconnection in the body that can be difficult to work out.  That's why I have evals scheduled with the OT and SLP next week.  I feel like I've gotten some of the major big things resolved and now need some professional help on the last bits.  My son can speak okay - people understand him enough, and he can make all the sounds, but his speech sounds kinda mushy rather than crisp and clear.  I'm guessing that some of those muscles aren't developed enough and that they need to be strengthened. 

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Reflexes are a funny thing. I swear every time we work through them we find another person who tests and finds more. And my dd would do her exercises, get one integrated, get stressed with her college stuff, and the whole thing would fall/revert out again. 

 

I'll try the palmer reflex test on him and see. i'm pretty sure the PT checked that, but I've had it happen where the next person checks it and it's there when the first person said it wasn't, sigh. 

 

 

They sure are!   One sure thing that can cause a regression is a virus.  I think one mechanism in play there is the effect of viruses on myelin. Demyelination when there's a virus.  Stress also impacts myelin but IIRC it's an opposite effect - there is something that there is too much of.  Can't remember the name now

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Sounds like you want a psych eval. They get that info as part of IQ testing. My dd was very similar, and she turned out to have ADHD, low processing speed, and poor word retrieval. There's a test for it. We used a neuropsych, so it was something he had on hand. I don't know that it's a common thing to run during a regular psych eval.

 

 

 

This is on our radar screen.  My husband has called a few places but since we don't have behavior issues /complaints they advised my DH that they thought, I forget the term, but basically spend our money working with dyslexia specialists who could help identify some of the weaker areas and work on them.  This was 2 or 3 offices pointing him in this direction, and all of the places we've called took at least a week to even provide a call back.  Two places said they wouldn't see us unless we had testing done through the school system first.    One only would test if we were looking for help to get school accommodations.  A couple that would be happy to see us had really bad online reviews.  The homeschooler referrals we've gotten were to the offices that apparently only see kids where there is a behavior concern.  

 

So we've been investigating other options.  One "educational therapy" type place uses the results from Mindprint, so I had my son take that and now I'm waiting on the results.  It's like a very lite version of a cognitive assessment that a neuropsych would do.  Looks well done and I didn't read the study but they say it's well correlated to the WISC and WRAT.  It was a good price through homeschool buyer's co-op and we figure that if there is anything concerning we can always follow up with a neuropsych to dig deeper - and then we'd have a specific reason to meet that we could express in their language.  I know that the neuropsych is the gold standard, but this seems like a good step for right now.  And at a 50th of the cost, it allows me to do more with our $ for actual help rather than just information.   

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My son's copying issues ended up being retained reflex/VT stuff. 

 

The reflexes can all be kind of mixed up together with one thing being a lynchpin issue and another being something that refines it. Also, all the sites/methods have overlaps as well as differences in how they elicit and fix the reflexes. 

 

That said, my son had major Moro issues by one test and fine Moro by another. He also has some big time issue with ATNR and STNR. It seems like Moro was making the others not integrate, but he did a ton of Moro work and some ATNR and STNR stuff. They are still not completely integrated, but he can copy now. I think they are the ones that make your eyes and hands "tied" together, so if you are trying to look between the visual and your own writing, you literally keep losing your place both directions over and over.

 

My son also did much better with cursive! He has some issues with working memory but can do amazing things with WM also--it depends on the task. He does not spell well, but he visualizes words and patters vs. using phonics. He definitely used phonics to learn to read, but he is a very visual speller. 

 

He has a lot of almost diagnoses--CTOPP abnormalities but not dyslexia, for instance. Lots of soft signs though.

 

Anyway, I think you should look into the motor stuff more, but you might try a practice that has both OT and PT and trains their people widely--lets them follow their own interests. You don't want a place that is just about sensory or just about some other issue. There is nothing wrong with specializing that way, but you need someone kind of intuitive and broad if this motor or reflex-based.

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Well if they're referring you to the ps, maybe the ps in your area is doing good evals? You have a legal, federal right to evals through the ps, and they're free. Personally, I would want a baseline before paying for tutoring. But, I agree, paying all your money for evals and having nothing left for interventions isn't cool and does happen.

 

For the retained reflexes, you can google for lists and look them up on youtube if you're handy.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just thought I'd stop by and update a bit in case anyone is interested.  At the very least it helps me to process things a bit.  

 

Because I love and want to help my child I've requested an eval through the PS.    I joined the local parents group and have only heard how bad it is to deal with the PS regarding learning disabilities.  Not one PS parent at the meeting was looking to figure out how to help their child at home.  I had an extra deep appreciation for the parents on this forum (I've been reading for years but don't usually have much to say).      I have a meeting with the PS this week so we'll see where it goes.  Right now I look at it as jumping through hoops in case we need more help.  Getting wrapped up into the politics / legal aspect of it and discussion of "rights" isn't really something I'm keen on at the moment.  

 

We got the Mindprint results and they were what I expected - some really strong areas coupled with some mediocre skills.  Kid definitely has something going on, but it's not working memory (as measured by n-back).  It did call out the visual processing/memory.  It specifically called out reversals.  He never makes reversal errors - but did in the past, before we did vision therapy exercises.  I think because it was a timed test it picked up on that underlying processing problem even though we've remediated it enough to no longer be a functional problem.  IIRC those kinds of timed tests are designed to be that way and that's how a cognitive exam can diagnose a dyslexic who has learned to read / spell.     Guess we'll see what the OD, COVD says this week about vision.   I just don't know at what point the "vision" issues can be helped more vs. it just being a neurological issue.  I guess that's something I'll talk to him about. 

 

I bought and read Lindamood Bell's Seeing Stars book (USED!) and have been implementing the techniques along with Barton and some additional sight words from a high freq. list.  So far so good.  It really seems to be helping.  On some un/sub conscious level he has the imagery for the words because he reads them fast and accurately but for whatever reason it's difficult for him to visualize how the word looks for writing.  It is too soon to know whether he'll retain long term - but using a sharpie to write a bunch of cards probably left *me* with a few less brain cells.    

 

The SLP evaluated him last week.  She's going to work with him on his "s" (about half the time it's a 'th') and he's been self correcting more so that he doesn't have to spend time going there.  He had started saying 's' correctly more after we did LiPS and he had the visual/kinesthetic feedback from the program.  I wish I'd done LiPS a couple years ago!!!    We also talked about the possibility of him being a clutterer (sometimes he talks fast and it gets all mushed together, but it isn't all the time).  He didn't do it during the eval.   I don't know what other tests she gave him (we're discussing this week) but she mentioned that he scored higher than any other kid his age that she's evaluated.  I'm guessing expressive language/vocab/ or verbal reasoning.  He's great with language as long as he doesn't have to write.  

 

OT eval got cancelled last week.  Hopefully she'll keep our appointment this week.   I think there will be something she can help with and I'm anxious to go.  I went through the process of visualizing all the letters individually with him and gave him a refresher on printing (he abandoned printing for cursive about a year ago).  The visualization process has helped with his writing some, but there still seems to be some fine motor hang-up that makes it a bit tough. We upgraded from a binder as a slanted writing surface to a nicer slant board and he's liking that a lot.  We got some of those erasable gel pens and those are a big hit.  We also went to the store and got some new mazes and dot to dots.  Dot to dots are no problem but he's enjoying them for the first time ever.  Mazes are still "not fun, mom"  (maybe some visual motor integration issues?).    Colored gel pens are at least making doing the mazes less bad :-)  

 

Well that's my book for today - if you're here thanks for reading :-) 

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So are these evals (SLP, OT, etc.) through the ps or will the ps be doing their own? And you're wanting the ps to offer services or do a psych eval? 

 

Yes, the OT eval will probably turn up things. Every OT I've been to emphasizes something different. Our current one is genius on handwriting and has that as her gig it seems. They spend a lot of time doing gross motor, because she says the motor planning for gross motor will get his body ready for fine motor. Yes, she had him do some mazes during her intake. We had done a LOT of those. Kumon has really nice maze books if you're looking for options. They're colorful and interesting and have wide enough lines that they're a good starting point.

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