S/O AP Physics - which DE physics to take?

[Kassia]

Dd will be doing full-time DE at our community college for junior and senior year.  

 

She is a strong student, but doesn't like science.  So far she has taken:

 

 

8th grade - Physical Science (high school level at home)

 

9th grade - Oak Meadow Biology w/lab

 

10th grade - DE Elementary Chemistry w/lab

 

 

Since she doesn't like science, I was going to have her just take general DE physics w/lab (algebra-based).  But I've had several people tell me that will weaken her transcript and she needs to take DE calculus based physics (Science/Engineering Physics).  Dd is not planning on going into science or engineering, but she is thinking about something with math.  

 

Thoughts?  

 

 

 

 

[kokotg]

hmm...I'm interested in hearing the answers. My son is taking an algebra/trig based physics DE right now. My first thought is that most public high school physics classes must not be calculus based, because most kids don't take calculus until senior year (some do, of course, but it's not the norm). wouldn't you have to take calc as a junior to take a calculus based physics senior year? 

[Kassia]

hmm...I'm interested in hearing the answers. My son is taking an algebra/trig based physics DE right now. My first thought is that most public high school physics classes must not be calculus based, because most kids don't take calculus until senior year (some do, of course, but it's not the norm). wouldn't you have to take calc as a junior to take a calculus based physics senior year? 

 

At our ps, they offer both algebra-based (regular and honors) and calculus-based (AP).  Dd will take calc 1 and 2 in her junior year so she could take the engineering physics but I don't see the point.  Our CC only offers it at night and it gets out late on the night they have lab (8-10:40pm).  

[kokotg]

ugh. well, I don't know, but now you have me worried that we should have waited until next year (after calc) for my son to take physics, so he could do calculus based. But I like to worry, so that doesn't mean much ;)

Edited February 17, 2018 by kokotg

[GoodGrief]

I think the algebra based is probably fine.

[kokotg]

okay...I went here: https://blog.prepscholar.com/whats-the-difference-between-ap-physics-1-2-and-c ...and it seems that there's a level of AP physics that's algebra based and a different level that's calculus based (which you can take after or concurrent to calc)....so it sounds to me like taking algebra based DE physics is roughly equivalent to taking AB calc instead of BC.

Edited February 17, 2018 by kokotg

[Kassia]

ugh. well, I don't know, but now you have me worried that we should have waited until next year (after calc) for my son to take physics, so he could do calculus based. But I like to worry, so that doesn't mean much ;)

 

Oh, gosh, I'm right there with you on the worrying.  I am so stressed about what her transcript will look like!  Will she have enough of each subject?  Will the courses look rigorous enough?  It's just such a big responsibility!  

[kokotg]

It is! Science has been a major PITA for us....I was expecting DE to take care of it, but the prerequisites and sequence at his college messed up all our plans. He's mathy but not so much science-y, too, so I'm hoping it won't be a huge problem with colleges that his science is less robust than other stuff.

[Kassia]

It is! Science has been a major PITA for us....I was expecting DE to take care of it, but the prerequisites and sequence at his college messed up all our plans. He's mathy but not so much science-y, too, so I'm hoping it won't be a huge problem with colleges that his science is less robust than other stuff.

 

That's where we are.  I don't know if she should take another science just to be sure she has *enough* science or let her follow her interests and take a class she's interested in or in a subject she wants to explore.  And I hate to make her take the engineering physics if she has no interest.  

[wapiti]

okay...I went here: https://blog.prepscholar.com/whats-the-difference-between-ap-physics-1-2-and-c ...and it seems that there's a level of AP physics that's algebra based and a different level that's calculus based (which you can take after or concurrent to calc)....so it sounds to me like taking algebra based DE physics is roughly equivalent to taking AB calc instead of BC.

 

I wouldn't quite analogize these AP Physics courses to calc AB and BC.  My rough understanding is that the focus is different, with 1 and 2 being more theoretical and C being more application.

 

I don't know about DE physics but I'm sure someone else here will know.  One question might be whether a DE algebra-based physics is a good idea prior to taking DE calc-based physics (as is often the case with AP Physics C)

Edited February 17, 2018 by wapiti

[FriedClams]

We're having this SAME discussion/debate at home. DD can possibly take and complete Derek Owens calculus 1 before the fall term to be able to take the college calculus based (science major) physics 1. And, also calculus 2.

 

But is it worth it?

 

Should she push that hard? I mean, I guess as a parent I'm frustrated that (...I feel like...) high school kids have to be advanced college kids to compete for good science/engineering colleges.

 

I'd prefer she work over the summer, take an academic break, and take calculus 1 on campus and non science college physics DE in the fall. Then, take calculus 2 and science major physics when she's actually IN college. But, I don't want her to not be able to compete because I advised her poorly.

 

I'm interested in what those who've BTDT have done.

[kokotg]

I wouldn't quite analogize these AP Physics courses to calc AB and BC.  My rough understanding is that the focus is different, with 1 and 2 being more theoretical and C being more application.

 

 

 

I guess I'm thinking more in terms of how it looks on a transcript; AB Calc/1 and 2 physics are definitely less rigorous than BC/C, but they're all still AP classes, and there's nothing shameful about "only" taking the easier one, particularly if it's in an subject you have no special interest in. 

[Lilaclady]

I think the problem is a lot of colleges do not accept AP physics 1 for credit especially for students going into the hard sciences and engineering. They accept physics C.

For my student who is leaning towards engineering, we did not bother taking AP physics 1 or 2. It was physics C concurrently with BC calculus. None of the schools she is looking at will give credit for physics 1 or 2.

[Lilaclady]

We're having this SAME discussion/debate at home. DD can possibly take and complete Derek Owens calculus 1 before the fall term to be able to take the college calculus based (science major) physics 1. And, also calculus 2.

 

But is it worth it?

 

Should she push that hard? I mean, I guess as a parent I'm frustrated that (...I feel like...) high school kids have to be advanced college kids to compete for good science/engineering colleges.

 

I'd prefer she work over the summer, take an academic break, and take calculus 1 on campus and non science college physics DE in the fall. Then, take calculus 2 and science major physics when she's actually IN college. But, I don't want her to not be able to compete because I advised her poorly.

 

I'm interested in what those who've BTDT have done.

I don’t think she should push herself too hard to satisfy some college advanced requirement. I read here that less than half of all high schools offer any physics class. There are lots of high schools that don’t offer calculus. She does not need to push herself and be burnt out before she even gets to college.

Even the highly selective engineering schools just want a physical science- which can be physics or chemistry and a life science. 4 sciences is preferred but it does not have to be all AP.

[regentrude]

I do not think this will weaken her transcript. Why would it?

 

If she is going to major in math, she will be required to take a calculus based physics course, but she can simply take that at the college where she does her undergrad. The algebra based physics course will be an excellent preparation. Just be aware that it will not earn you credit towards a math major.

[Kassia]

Even the highly selective engineering schools just want a physical science- which can be physics or chemistry and a life science. 4 sciences is preferred but it does not have to be all AP.

 

I'm having people tell me that choosing DE General Physics over DE Engineering Physics will "seriously weaken" dd's transcript, which is concerning me.  I thought general physics would be fine since she's not interested in science.  They are both five credit classes with labs, but general is not calculus-based.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Kassia

[regentrude]

okay...I went here: https://blog.prepscholar.com/whats-the-difference-between-ap-physics-1-2-and-c ...and it seems that there's a level of AP physics that's algebra based and a different level that's calculus based (which you can take after or concurrent to calc)....so it sounds to me like taking algebra based DE physics is roughly equivalent to taking AB calc instead of BC.

 

No, that is not a correct analogy. AP Calc AB gets you credit for calc 1; AP Calc BC covers calc 1+2.

 

The algebra based AP Physics 1+2 does not give you credit for any part of a calculus based sequence; it is algebra based, and the credit will only count if your major does not require any calculus based physics. (This means students planning to major in physics, math, computer science, chemistry, and engineering will not be able to count the credit for their majors)

 

AP Physics C-Mechanics covers the first semester of a calculus based physics; AP Physics C e&m the second.

[regentrude]

Just for perspective: I teach at a public STEM university. 20% of the students in my calculus based physics course for scientists and engineers never had ANY physics in high school, and the vast majority had algebra based physics.

Unless you are competing for a spot at an Ivy or similarly selective school, I think the statement that "only" algebra based physics will weaken the transcript is completely nonsense.

[regentrude]

I think the problem is a lot of colleges do not accept AP physics 1 for credit especially for students going into the hard sciences and engineering. They accept physics C.

For my student who is leaning towards engineering, we did not bother taking AP physics 1 or 2. It was physics C concurrently with BC calculus. None of the schools she is looking at will give credit for physics 1 or 2.

 

That has nothing to do with the schools, but with her major.

Since engineering requires calculus based physics, an algebra based physics course will not give credit since it does not fulfill the requirements for the degree program.

If she were going into a major that did not require calc based physics, it is very likely AP Phys1+2 would be accepted just fine.

At many colleges, life science majors are only required to take algebra based physics, and they would benefit from1+2.

[wapiti]

I'm having people tell me that choosing DE General Physics over DE Engineering Physics will "seriously weaken" dd's transcript, which is concerning me.  I thought general physics would be fine since she's not interested in science.  They are both five credit classes with labs, but general is not calculus-based.

 

She has not yet taken any physics class, correct?  Isn't an algebra-based physics (such as high school physics) usually recommended prior to taking calc-based?  (Regentrude?)

[regentrude]

She has not yet taken any physics class, correct?  Isn't an algebra-based physics (such as high school physics) usually recommended prior to taking calc-based?  (Regentrude?)

 

It is certainly helpful for a student who has the time. A good* algebra based physics course is a great preparation for a calculus based course.

However, all calculus based physics texts I have seen start from the very beginning without assuming prior knowledge of physics. 20% of the students in my calc based engineering physics course at a STEM uni have never had any physics in high school. This does not affect their success; the math preparation is far more important for this than whether a student had prior physics or not.

 

*a bad highschool physics is worse than no physics at all. 

[8filltheheart]

I agree 100% with Regentrude. Issues are getting intertwined that don't need to be. For a student's with zero interest in pursuing a field requiring cal-base physics (engineering, physics, etc), I would not have them take a cal-based course unless for some reason it was something they were interested in pursuing.

 

Based on the fact that she has already taken chem and bio, I would read admission sites bc she has covered both a life and physical science. If there are other science courses that appeal to her more than physics, I would let her consider those as well as the alg based physics course. Geology, for example, would be a perfectly acceptable science course. Anatomy and physiology. There are a lot of solidly acceptable routes without cal-physics being the only one.

[Kassia]

 

Unless you are competing for a spot at an Ivy or similarly selective school, I think the statement that "only" algebra based physics will weaken the transcript is completely nonsense.

 

 

I agree 100% with Regentrude. Issues are getting intertwined that don't need to be. For a student's with zero interest in pursuing a field requiring cal-base physics (engineering, physics, etc), I would not have them take a cal-based course unless for some reason it was something they were interested in pursuing.

 

 

 

 

Thank you thank you thank you!  I feel so much better now.  Our plan all along was for her to take the general physics but then having people tell me this will weaken dd's transcript put doubt in my mind.  The concern is that college admissions officers will see that dd chose to  take an *easier* physics when a more challenging course is offered.  

[Lilaclady]

That has nothing to do with the schools, but with her major.

Since engineering requires calculus based physics, an algebra based physics course will not give credit since it does not fulfill the requirements for the degree program.

If she were going into a major that did not require calc based physics, it is very likely AP Phys1+2 would be accepted just fine.

At many colleges, life science majors are only required to take algebra based physics, and they would benefit from1+2.

I did mention that she is looking into engineering.

[kokotg]

Another thought....my son didn't realize he was interested in physics until he started taking it. Now he's really enjoying it and is considering continuing with it past his graduation requirements next year in DE. Sounds like your daughter will have all the requirements finished junior year, so she'll have time to take more science that fits her interests and goals senior year if she wants to (which could be calculus based physics if that makes sense or something else) 

Edited February 17, 2018 by kokotg

[wapiti]

Our plan all along was for her to take the general physics but then having people tell me this will weaken dd's transcript put doubt in my mind.  The concern is that college admissions officers will see that dd chose to  take an *easier* physics when a more challenging course is offered.  

 

Sounds like a good plan to me.  FWIW, I don't think that angle, most demanding schedule, is applicable to DE - that wouldn't make sense.  I think it's only applicable to what is offered within a B&M high school.

[regentrude]

I did mention that she is looking into engineering.

 

yes, I read that. I was just commenting on your statement that the *schools* are not accepting the algebra based AP; it may have nothing to do with the school and everything with the major. This may not matter for your DD's situation, but the distinction is important for other posters.

Edited February 17, 2018 by regentrude

[FriedClams]

I don’t think she should push herself too hard to satisfy some college advanced requirement. I read here that less than half of all high schools offer any physics class. There are lots of high schools that don’t offer calculus. She does not need to push herself and be burnt out before she even gets to college.

Even the highly selective engineering schools just want a physical science- which can be physics or chemistry and a life science. 4 sciences is preferred but it does not have to be all AP.

Thank you!! She'll have chem (with a solid SAT subject test), bio, DE astronomy with lab, and some version of DE physics. I think it's fine. Her ACT scores rock.

 

Oh the worries!! LOL

 

We're doing a couple college visits next week so I'll report back with what the admissions party line is when we get back.

Edited February 17, 2018 by FriedClams

[Kassia]

I think the statement that "only" algebra based physics will weaken the transcript is completely nonsense.

 

Would one semester of general physics be enough for DE?  Here are the descriptions for General Physics 1 &2.  Now I'm worried because it says it's a sequence of classes.  The courses are 5 credits each.

 

General Physics 1:

This is the first course in a two-course introductory physics sequence designed for students not majoring in engineering, physics, or chemistry. Topics, which are algebra/trigonometry-based, include vectors, kinematics, Newton's laws, energy, linear and angular momentum, rotational dynamics, fluids and thermodynamics. Students will complete experiments related to these topics in lab. (7 contact hours: 4 lecture, 3 lab)

 

General Physics 2:

 

This course is a continuation of General Physics I. Topics, which are algebra/trigonometry based, include electrostatics, capacitance, DC series and parallel circuits, electromagnetism, simple AC circuits, mechanical waves, geometric and physical optics, and modern physics. Students will complete experiments related to these topics in lab. (7 contact hours: 4 lecture, 3 lab)

 

 

 

We're doing a couple college visits next week so I'll pay what the admissions pay line is when we get back.

 

Thank you!  :)

[regentrude]

Would one semester of general physics be enough for DE?  Here are the descriptions for General Physics 1 &2.  Now I'm worried because it says it's a sequence of classes.  The courses are 5 credits each.

 

General Physics 1:

This is the first course in a two-course introductory physics sequence designed for students not majoring in engineering, physics, or chemistry. Topics, which are algebra/trigonometry-based, include vectors, kinematics, Newton's laws, energy, linear and angular momentum, rotational dynamics, fluids and thermodynamics. Students will complete experiments related to these topics in lab. (7 contact hours: 4 lecture, 3 lab)

 

General Physics 2:

 

This course is a continuation of General Physics I. Topics, which are algebra/trigonometry based, include electrostatics, capacitance, DC series and parallel circuits, electromagnetism, simple AC circuits, mechanical waves, geometric and physical optics, and modern physics. Students will complete experiments related to these topics in lab. (7 contact hours: 4 lecture, 3 lab)

 

Not sure what you mean by "enough". Enough for what?

A good algebra based high school course would cover mechanics and electricity&magnetism.

In college, the same content is typically taught as a two semester sequence with mechanics in the first and e&m in the second semester.

 

I had both my kids take the 2 semester algebra/trig based college physics in high school.

Edited February 17, 2018 by regentrude

[Kassia]

Not sure what you mean by "enough". Enough for what?

A good algebra based high school course would cover mechanics and electricity&magnetism.

In college, the same content is typically taught as a two semester sequence with mechanics in the first and e&m in the second semester.

 

I had both my kids take the 2 semester algebra/trig based college physics in high school.

 

 

I'm sorry - I meant would one semester of this DE physics be enough for a high school transcript and college admissions/scholarships for a student not interested in science, but strongly considering majoring in math.

 

ETA:  if it's best for dd to take both, that means 10 credits of DE physics.  

 

 

And thank you for your help!

Edited February 17, 2018 by Kassia

[regentrude]

I'm sorry - I meant would one semester of this DE physics be enough for a high school transcript and college admissions/scholarships for a student not interested in science, but strongly considering majoring in math.

 

ETA:  if it's best for dd to take both, that means 10 credits of DE physics.  

 

What colleges are you shooting for? Students get into good universities without ANY physics on their transcript. For most colleges, satisfying the admissions requirements is "enough" - and any physics course would "count".

Edited February 17, 2018 by regentrude

[Kassia]

What colleges are you shooting for? Students get into good universities without ANY physics on their transcript. For most colleges, satisfying the admissions requirements is "enough" - and any physics course would "count".

 

I'm not sure yet - she's' only a sophomore and not sure of where she wants to go or wants she wants to do.  Probably an LAC where she can get merit aid since she wants a small school.  Otherwise an honors program at a state school.  She has people pushing her into looking at highly selective schools, but we're not going in that direction (for now).  

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry - I meant would one semester of this DE physics be enough for a high school transcript and college admissions/scholarships for a student not interested in science, but strongly considering majoring in math.

 

ETA:  if it's best for dd to take both, that means 10 credits of DE physics.  

 

 

And thank you for your help!

 

It is a sequence class b/c the first course is covering mechanics and the second E&M.  In high schools, AP physics 1 is a yr long course covering mechanics and AP physics 2 is a yr long course covering E&M.  Many of the schools that do offer AP C levels only offer mechanics and make it a yr long course vs. teaching both C courses and at a 1 course/semester sequence.

 

I think you might be way overthinking this process.  More than likely they will look at the transcript and see that a core science sequence has been covered and met their admissions criteria and not actually put more thought into it than that.  1 semester would be the equivalent of AP physics 1 and equivalent to 1 high school credit.  (Keep in mind that some high schools are on 4 courses/semester block and students very well only take physics 1 in a single semester and still get 1 credit and be the only science they take that yr.)

 

What colleges are you shooting for? Students get into good universities without ANY physics on their transcript. For most colleges, satisfying the admissions requirements is "enough" - and any physics course would "count".

 

This.  I have not seen any admissions site that specifically requires physics for admission to the university in general.  There might be depts that require physics (engineering, maybe??), but I have never even seen that.  Somewhere on the forum (or maybe it is on CC) there is a discussion about just how many high schools in the US do not offer physics as an option.  

[regentrude]

I'm not sure yet - she's' only a sophomore and not sure of where she wants to go or wants she wants to do.  Probably an LAC where she can get merit aid since she wants a small school.  Otherwise an honors program at a state school.  She has people pushing her into looking at highly selective schools, but we're not going in that direction (for now).  

 

I think quite a portion of the students with whom she will be competing will have no access to physics at all.

And DE looks better than a generic high school course.

Have her take the first semester. If she likes it, she can always take the second semester; if she had enough of it, then not.

Don't overthink.

[Kassia]

It is a sequence class b/c the first course is covering mechanics and the second E&M.  In high schools, AP physics 1 is a yr long course covering mechanics and AP physics 2 is a yr long course covering E&M.  Many of the schools that do offer AP C levels only offer mechanics and make it a yr long course vs. teaching both C courses and at a 1 course/semester sequence.

 

 

DH and I were just discussing this.  Our three older sons all did it differently - one took a DE class (engineering physics), one went to ps and took AP Physics (mechanics), and the other took honors physics (algebra-based), but all only covered mechanics and all went on to be engineers.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have her take the first semester. If she likes it, she can always take the second semester; if she had enough of it, then not.

Don't overthink.

 

Overthinking is definitely an issue for me!  This whole process has been so stressful!  

 

Thanks to everyone for your help!  :)

[regentrude]

 Somewhere on the forum (or maybe it is on CC) there is a discussion about just how many high schools in the US do not offer physics as an option.  

 

We had the discussion on this board.

 

40% of US high schools do not offer physics. Don't get me started...

https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2016/08/24/2-in-5-high-schools-dont-offer.html

[RootAnn]

This. I have not seen any admissions site that specifically requires physics for admission to the university in general. There might be depts that require physics (engineering, maybe??), but I have never even seen that.

Back when I applied to college (early 90s), the engineering college of one state university required both chemistry and physics (but no bio) for admission. However, you could still get into the U in general without it and the engineering college would let you in just as soon as you passed a college physics class. It is not a difficult college or program to enter. It is the only place I've ever seen the requirement. (And the source of my long-held belief that you don't have to take biology to get into college.)

[madteaparty]

Sounds like a good plan to me. FWIW, I don't think that angle, most demanding schedule, is applicable to DE - that wouldn't make sense. I think it's only applicable to what is offered within a B&M high school.

I can see this maybe apply when for example DS might take “biology for non majors†vs “biology for science majorsâ€, and neither has a prerequisite. But if the student isn’t a science major...

[8filltheheart]

Back when I applied to college (early 90s), the engineering college of one state university required both chemistry and physics (but no bio) for admission. However, you could still get into the U in general without it and the engineering college would let you in just as soon as you passed a college physics class. It is not a difficult college or program to enter. It is the only place I've ever seen the requirement. (And the source of my long-held belief that you don't have to take biology to get into college.)

 

Just be aware that some universities do specify a life science.  The most typical wording is something to the effect of 3 sciences, at least 2 lab sciences, and a life and physical science.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think the problem is a lot of colleges do not accept AP physics 1 for credit especially for students going into the hard sciences and engineering. They accept physics C.

For my student who is leaning towards engineering, we did not bother taking AP physics 1 or 2. It was physics C concurrently with BC calculus. None of the schools she is looking at will give credit for physics 1 or 2.

I don't expect everything my kids do as AP or DE to get them credit. My engineering department kid intentionally declined credit in calculus and AP computer science so he would have the full sequence at his 4 year school.

 

I know that some people are quite advanced in math and physics in high school. But there are also lots of students who passed through calc and science classes on high school but find college level a big step up.

 

In the OP situation I don't think algebra based physics is a bad choice for her high schooler. It might mean more physics in college if her degree required it.

[RootAnn]

Just be aware that some universities do specify a life science.  The most typical wording is something to the effect of 3 sciences, at least 2 lab sciences, and a life and physical science.

Yes, some do. I have seen a few that do this since I've started to drill deeper on college entrance requirements. There are even a few who require four years of science or specify that all the years (2 or 3) of science they require include labs. Science requirements vary widely, so it is best to check each college individually.