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Help me think through this


bethben
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I’ve written before about my dd in a public charter school and the wacky discipline system they have that pits kids against each other. The social rules got wackier. I am going to talk to the school counselor to see if anything can be done but we are at the breaking point of removing her from school.

 

She came home yesterday totally upset. Another one of the rules (aside from the hand signals warning another child of their potential to get in trouble) involves what the school calls a “foulâ€. A child insulted my daughter and proceeded to walk away. Per school “rules†my dd has to pursue this child and give her a “foulâ€. This means dd uses her “I†language and it goes something like this. “I had my feelings hurt when you insulted meâ€. The other child is then supposed to give dd two compliments and say thank you for pointing out my bad behavior. So, dd did everything she was supposed to do and the other child basically insulted her again, gave her two superficial compliments and basically hurt dd’s feelings again. I asked dd what happens if the child doesn’t go by the social contract in cases like these. There is no way to deal with those cases except tell a teacher which further pits children against each other. Dd can’t just walk away and forgive he child in her heart. She is supposed to make amends with a child who most likely has no intention of making amends and is still in a heated situation.

 

So, I have a list of what these policies do to a child like mine who wants to follow the rules and expects a different outcome. I need to talk to someone about this and maybe explain why this policy is hurtful to children.

 

We are also seriously considering removing her but I feel like it’s just giving up. I still plan on trying a different charter and don’t want to send a message that when things get hard, we give up. My dd wants to go to school because she likes her teacher. She doesn’t want to stop yet she’s coming home upset or crying daily mainly because of this stupid social policy.

 

So, I need a little more consideration why this social contract policy is horrible and some thoughts to back up why I’m not a crazy parent.

 

 

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I don’t think I’ve posted in your other threads about the school, but I have read them. I would have been a lot like your DD at a schoool like this. You are not crazy. I wouldn’t send her another day. I am not sure all the specifics of your situation, of course, so I’m not sure if it’s possible to pull her right away, but that is definitely what I would do.

 

I’d really like to know whose idea this whole system is and why they thought it would be a good idea!

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Can you just tell your daughter to ignore the "rule" that "requires" her to demand an apology?

 

Also, work on helping her to understand that when other people are jerks, it's their problem, not hers.  She is in no way responsible for the way other people act.

 

What I taught my kids to say was "you are NOT allowed to __ me."  In this case "you are NOT allowed to insult me."  Preferably loud enough for the teacher to hear.  Then let the teacher deal with the brat.

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I’ve told her to ignore the social rules. She can’t. They drill these rules into the students to the point where dd says, “I can’t stopâ€. She wants to do her best. Her best is following their rules. I’m setting up a meeting with the school counselor to see if there’s any solution. If dd was begging me to come home, she would be home now. She wants to stay hence the hesitancy. So, I’m going to try one last time and see where we get.

 

 

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I am trying to give my dd other skills to deal with mean people. Mean people are everywhere. The problem is, this school has dictated how she’s supposed to deal with them. Dd can’t take my suggestions because it’s going against the school which basically pits me against the school. I am very willing to help her work through these issues and know they will come, but I have to go against the school in order to help her. It’s annoying.

 

Society doesn’t work like this. If an random person I didn’t know well yelled at me in anger, the last thing I would do is point out their mid-behavior much less pursue them to point it out and demand a thank you for pointing it out. Craziness!

 

 

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I can't tell if it's your daughter or her teachers who are being rigid.  I mean, there is nothing new or unusual about adults telling kids what to do in general if someone bugs you.  I'm pretty sure every primary school teacher does this on a regular basis - basically giving kids alternatives to the impulses to react by hitting, crying, etc.  Imagine a world where all kids did exactly what the teacher recommended on the first day of school!  It doesn't happen that way though. I don't assume the teachers expect it to.  Obviously the other kids don't think they need to follow it to the letter.

 

So I agree with the idea to sit down and talk to the teacher and understand what is really expected and talk about what is realistic for the age.  Maybe you as a team could come up with an approach that would work for your daughter.  Maybe the teacher could have a talk with the class about this being one option and that the important thing is to respond to challenges with calm words and escalate it to an adult if the situation feels unsafe at that point.

 

Meanwhile I would wonder why she is so rigid about this and other things.  It doesn't seem quite typical for the age, to me.

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Well, the problem with those scripts is that some people are just [word that I probably shouldn't use to describe a child] and will actually feel like they've won if you tell them straight up, "Hey, I felt really sad when you said that blah blah blah." It's a fine script for relationships among loved ones. Catty kids? No. Save the talk about how you're crying inside, save the tears, for your mom, or your true friends. Roll your eyes and whatever the mean girls.

 

If your daughter is absolutely unable to choose not to follow this or other rules, I'd bring her home to protect her. I'm guessing that the reason other kids survive socially at this school is because they are able to do so, and if she's the only one who can't, she's going to get targeted and picked on even more. Working on her rigidity at this point and her inability to adapt to different social situations is probably more worth your time than trying to change the school's disciplinary policies. (And this is not a defense of those policies; they seem horrible. But I'm not sure fighting them will help your daughter in the short or long run, as noble as it might be.)

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They are not teaching her to be strong and independent, or to follow her own intuition.

 

Strength says, "Those stupid words don't hurt me because I'm choosing to shake it off."

 

Independence says, "Actually, I am in charge of how I respond to others' interactions with me."

 

Intuition may say, "If I'm picking my battles in this STUPID school, chasing down a brat to inform her she's a brat is not going to help me get through this STUPID day, and might bring me even more crap from her and her friends. So no..."

 

This school is wrongly socializing your child, confusing her, and weakening her skills, both in personal assertiveness and in learning how to adapt to groups that are not being coached in these ways (i.e. the rest of the planet). The damage may be very long term. It'll last longer, the longer she's left in that environment and encouraged to figure out how to please them all.

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The policy IS horrible.

 

But, I don’t think talking to the counselor will help even a little bit.

 

This situation is not a good fit for your DD. In fact it is damaging.

 

I think the only option that is left is to keep her away from that situation and find or create a different one. Whether that is regular public school, homeschool, or some other option available in your area.

 

She is too young to decide when she is in an emotionally healthy environment or not, no matter which people she likes while there. That’s your job. She probably likes her teacher because she can “people pleaseâ€. She might like a new teacher in a different school even more.

 

I think continuing to send her there and “talking†to the powers that be is akin to tossing a pebble in the ocean and expecting a tsunami as a result. This is their policy for now, and it won’t change between now and the end of the school year. Arriving home upset more days than not IS changing your DD, though. For the long term.

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Oh my. I am not on the boards much, so I haven't been keeping up with your story on this school, just read this one thread, but...

 

Wow. 

 

Just.

 

Wow. 

 

It's just completely stupid, imo. 

 

Pull her and go somewhere where the tools they give to help with social interactions 

#1 actually work, and #2 are from the real world, not some dorky emotional fairyland that has no clue as to developmental appropriateness or the reality of 10 yo behaviour. 

 

Just my 2c. 

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I think what your daughter's school is doing is nuts. It reminds me of a co-op we were in when my boys were 7, 8 and 9.

 

A social worker mom thought it would be cool to have the various kids get in a circle and then give each other compliments. (My kids were relatively new to the group, but the other kids had known each other for years.)

 

None of the moms were in the room, only the one mom leading the group.

 

Her son's "compliment" to my son was, "You're weird, but in a good way."

 

Sounds cute and funny, but that's not how it sounded to my son. (Who, btw, is a Mr. Popular/social type so the whole interaction was just messed up.)

 

The teacher/mom did zero. And just moved onto the next kid.

 

Adults can really be dense on what kids can handle re: social interaction. I understand "I" statements and I get what the school is teaching but most of the adults I know can't perform this trick w/ any accuracy. Meaning: they need major coaching and support to learn to do it.

 

Alley

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It's dysfunctional. If you want concrete reasons a few I can say after reading all your threads are that the whole thing: 1) is age inappropriate, 2) children don't understand the underlying context of whatever the idiot came up with this system is trying to accomplish, 3) it invites insincerity, and pits children against one another and is the opposite of building community unless they planned to groom them to live in a fascist state where reporting on one another is the norm. I cannot even wrap my head around who would ever sign off on this or think it would have a good ending. I'm trying to picture the round table where this plan came to fruition! Was it something like, "I know! Let's teach them to tattle tale on one another and then force them to give compliments and faux apologies all under the guidance of one single adult. That is the best plan EVER."

 

I don't consider it giving up. I consider it removing one's self from a harmful and dysfunctional situation in which neither of you have any hope whatsoever of reforming. Protecting yourself and your daughter isn't quitting. But really, even if someone thinks it is WHO CARES? It isn't your job to reform their school. Someone bought into the BS psychology and they're probably going to ride that out until it goes down in a blaze of glory. There is nothing saying y'all have to stick around to watch.

This. These rules do not support building community. They also don't support kids choosing for themselves how to deal with situations. Sometimes it's best to walk away, and sometimes it's best to ignore bad behavior from others. Honestly, I can't understand what these rules are intended to do. They don't teach kids how to handle conflict (which they will encounter their whole lives), and they do nothing to build a positive learning environment.

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They are not teaching her to be strong and independent, or to follow her own intuition.

 

Strength says, "Those stupid words don't hurt me because I'm choosing to shake it off."

 

Independence says, "Actually, I am in charge of how I respond to others' interactions with me."

 

Intuition may say, "If I'm picking my battles in this STUPID school, chasing down a brat to inform her she's a brat is not going to help me get through this STUPID day, and might bring me even more crap from her and her friends. So no..."

 

This school is wrongly socializing your child, confusing her, and weakening her skills, both in personal assertiveness and in learning how to adapt to groups that are not being coached in these ways (i.e. the rest of the planet). The damage may be very long term. It'll last longer, the longer she's left in that environment and encouraged to figure out how to please them all.

This is exactly what is wrong with the rules!

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I do actually think she could figure out negative social situations. She’s one who stands up to bullies for herself and others—she’ll even stand up for a kid she doesn’t like if they’re being bullied. The situations she doesn’t know how to deal with, we talk through situations quite a bit. This school is wacky. I do feel that sometimes she should just ignore bad behavior and just chalk it up to a kid having a bad day. I’ve also coached her on how to change the subject with a kid trying to start an argument. She would be much better using her wits. She has a pretty good social sense. But her desire to please and do things correctly has messed with her internal feeling of what to do per situation. I guess I’m going to talk to the counselor who has also tried to help her with this weird social order to see if what dd thinks is the way to act really is their policy.

 

 

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I think what your daughter's school is doing is nuts. It reminds me of a co-op we were in when my boys were 7, 8 and 9.

 

A social worker mom thought it would be cool to have the various kids get in a circle and then give each other compliments. (My kids were relatively new to the group, but the other kids had known each other for years.)

 

None of the moms were in the room, only the one mom leading the group.

 

Her son's "compliment" to my son was, "You're weird, but in a good way."

 

Sounds cute and funny, but that's not how it sounded to my son. (Who, btw, is a Mr. Popular/social type so the whole interaction was just messed up.)

 

The teacher/mom did zero. And just moved onto the next kid.

 

Adults can really be dense on what kids can handle re: social interaction. I understand "I" statements and I get what the school is teaching but most of the adults I know can't perform this trick w/ any accuracy. Meaning: they need major coaching and support to learn to do it.

 

Alley

I also understand “I†statements. But I will only use this type of conversation with my husband and closest relationships. There has to be a level of trust when you engage in that type of conversation.

 

 

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The policy codifies the surrender of free will and free speech by children on both sides.  Plus it's stupid.  Who wants to chase down the mean girl and explain to her why she was mean?  I want you to consider what would happen if the offense were criminal but the children did not recognize it as such, or if the offending child's intention is to draw the plaintiff child to some more isolated spot through this obligatory pursuit nonsense?

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The school's policies sound so ridiculous to me that I can imagine them being in a Portlandia skit. I can imagine Fred and Carrie and some guest star making it all hilarious. It shouldn't be real life.

 

Umm...do you live in Portland? 

 

What would the school's policy be if your daughter did not feel that her feelings had been hurt by the insults? Would they expect her to lie and stick with the script? Or could she work on not allowing it to bother her and be persuaded that she would then not be breaking the rules? 

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We are also seriously considering removing her but I feel like it’s just giving up. I still plan on trying a different charter and don’t want to send a message that when things get hard, we give up. My dd wants to go to school because she likes her teacher. She doesn’t want to stop yet she’s coming home upset or crying daily mainly because of this stupid social policy.

 

 

 

And so why is giving up a bad thing? As adults, we quit things all the time when they are not working out. Why would we expect our tender, young, inexperienced children to continue to plow into situations that are clearly not good for them?

 

You can't fix the system. Your daughter can't fix the system. What is the point of making her go through that stuff daily?

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Your DD says she wants to stay.

 

My ds wanted to stay in a school where he was getting physically attacked with frequency. Going to school administration did not help. We made a police report and that helped briefly, because the parents of the child were concerned we actually involved the police.

 

Finally we told ds he wasn't going to school. He was angry with us. He really wanted to stay. But then after he'd been home a year he was able to tell us more and more what happened at the school. It was so much worse. And he began asking why we didn't get him out sooner. We didn't because we didn't know and he had been asking to stay.

 

I think if you think you'd bring her home if she said she wanted to come home, you need to evaluate whether your DD is in a position to make that decision. She may have it in her head she has to prove something by staying. She may think if she follows rules it will get better even though precedent says that won't happen. She may have other ideas that she can't express and really be aren't good reasons to stay.

 

So you need to make the decision for her. You need to look at all the facts and ask objectively if this is a good place for your dd. If it is not , remove her now. Don't add to the pain she is experiencing. Bring her home. Don't do school. Let her detox from the experience for some time. Then figure out what you want to do.

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... I guess I’m going to talk to the counselor who has also tried to help her with this weird social order to see if what dd thinks is the way to act really is their policy.

 

Well I was going to say the issue was the dc misunderstanding, but then I reread that this is a public charter school. This is such a wild west in education right now, with all sorts of disreputable and odd things happening. There's a line between innovation and crackpot, and people with qualifications realize when they're crossing it. Unfortunately, when it's the charter system, it's really up to the PARENTS to figure out it's crackpots and unqualified people calling the shots in the school and to FLEE. 

 

Your dd may need some assistance of some kind, sure, but what you're describing sounds odd and inappropriate. She would be safer at this point in a regular ps, a place that will use evidence-based practices and have more accountability.

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This sounds like it came right out of the book The Giver.  These people are really scary nuts and it is really concerning that so many people think this is a good thing and love the school.  You are definitely not the crazy one.

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