The dilemma of befriending the mentally unstable

[Carol in Cal.]

So many sources are saying that the young man who shot up the school in Florida was completely isolated, mentally disturbed, etc. and that we should resolve to step forward and befriend people who are messed up and isolated.

 

And there is a great deal of truth to that.

 

But it's also quite risky sometimes, and I think people discount the extent to which that is so.  I have noticed that if you attract the favorable attention of someone who has psychotic episodes during a good period, you then seem to be the one they go off on in bad spells.  And sometimes those bad spells are really, really dangerous ones.  

 

How do we appropriately address this?  How do we calculate/mitigate the risk?

[goldberry]

I don't know.  DD has always been incredibly empathetic and reaches out to outsiders and anyone she feels like needs a friend.  More than once this got her involved with people who had problems that she was not equipped to handle at that age. I walked her through things as best I could, but it's scary.  And yes could be dangerous.  

[Bluegoat]

Well, yes, I do think it's important to be lovingly oriented toward everyone, and that means making a place for them in your community.  Even if they are fairly crazy or difficult.

 

And yes, there are risks of a sort involved, usually more time and difficulty and responsibility rather than physical risks, but there can be physical ones too.  It can be extremely frustrating, as well.

 

Some people are better at managing such people than others.  I think it's important that everyone do their part though, otherwise the talented individuals very quickly become overwhelmed.

 

As far as managing risk - I don't know.  I don't generally feel like I struggle with this, perhaps because I tend to think life is generally a risk and best faced with that taken for granted.  And I have a pretty good sense of where I stop being able to handle a situation and become a liability and need to call in help.  So for me, that's where I draw my line.  

 

Our society though is so self-focused and risk adverse, and I'd even say hysterical at times, that I'm not sure that people are able to manage even simple risk assessment much of the time, to say nothing of more complicated scenarios.

[gardenmom5]

I think this kid went way way beyond anything simply befriending him would have benefited.  it has now come out - the police had been called to the home 39 times since 2010.

[Spryte]

 

But it's also quite risky sometimes, and I think people discount the extent to which that is so. I have noticed that if you attract the favorable attention of someone who has psychotic episodes during a good period, you then seem to be the one they go off on in bad spells. And sometimes those bad spells are really, really dangerous ones.

 

How do we appropriately address this? How do we calculate/mitigate the risk?

As someone who almost lost her life after befriending a mentally ill person, then was stalked 1300 miles across the country, moving multiple times, I can attest to the risk. It’s real. It changed my entire world, even my name, in my early 20s. I moved away from everyone I knew, and told no one where I was going. It was lonely, and scary, but I’m still here, so it was a win. For years, even the whisper of a suspicion that a new friend had X mental illness sent me running.

 

Now I’m the (step)parent of an adult child with mental illness. Yep. Same diagnosis. Karma? The irony is almost painful. I certainly don’t want my son who is floundering and struggling to be isolated and alone in his illness, at the same time, I have had to assess and reassess the danger he may present to our younger kids. DH and I do this with the assistance of a licensed therapist, in conjunction with our adult son’s psychiatrist, and we’ve had to make some changes we’d not have made if we did not have small kids. Our concerns are absolutely not on a level with school shootings, mass killings, or hurting another person deliberately, but more along the lines of fearing he will do something to himself that could be witnessed by our younger kids.

 

Befriending someone who is seriously mentally ill is not a walk in the park, it’s a balancing act. Too often, someone is going to fall off the beam.

 

I’m not suggesting, at all, that befriending people who are mentally ill is not a good idea, or helpful. Of course it is, and can be. I think though, the focus needs to be on getting them help from professionals. (Also not a walk in the park.)

 

No answers, just some personal musings from the trenches. How to mitigate the risk is a good question.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Spryte

[Ottakee]

I think this kid went way way beyond anything simply befriending him would have benefited. it has now come out - the police had been called to the home 39 times since 2010.

This alone shows the huge lack of proper services......services for the parents and the child. A family in our area has called and called for help for their teen son but keep being told there is nothing that can be done until he "......" (Basically does something horrible. Funding for mental health services, residential, even proper safe living arrangements for those not safe in society is severely lacking and the current administration is not helping this crisis at all.

[MotherGoose]

I think the country is going to have to swing back towards putting more people in psychiatric hospitals. The community mental health movement was a great thing, but many people just don't cooperate with it. If the laws were changed around involuntary commitment to hospitals it might help get people some services. They changes would have to be carefully implemented to avoid reverting to the old way of hospitalizing people for the rest of their lives when they were just a bit odd or something. This will of course require more funding.

[jewellsmommy]

I think the country is going to have to swing back towards putting more people in psychiatric hospitals. The community mental health movement was a great thing, but many people just don't cooperate with it. If the laws were changed around involuntary commitment to hospitals it might help get people some services. They changes would have to be carefully implemented to avoid reverting to the old way of hospitalizing people for the rest of their lives when they were just a bit odd or something. This will of course require more funding.

 

Rather than the mental hospital model, I would rather see more therapeutic group homes. These are more expensive but much more effective and don't isolate from society. If a young person can't succeed there then a hospital is certainly warranted. so I do think we still need them. I just think that funding and red tape need to be streamlined, and better guidance provided as to the available options. But I would like to see more intensive in-home therapy and therapeutic group home options put forth. So much more could be done with this model and it feels like a much less drastic step than putting a child in a mental hospital. Even if your dc is exhibiting dangerous behaviors there is a desire to still hold back and try one more thing before resorting to something that seems that extreme. A better understanding of service options and a feeling of more involvement in the treatment for parents, I think, would allow them to act sooner before escalation that is harder to come back from.

 

 

ETA: I am referencing in-patient hospital treatment vs therapeutic group home. Acute hospitalizations (which are only for a week to 10 days, usually just to stabilize the patient) are different than what I am talking about. A therapeutic group home stay could be for a couple of months or longer just like an in-patient hospitalization. The difference is the setting.

Edited February 16, 2018 by jewellsmommy

[Laurie]

So many sources are saying that the young man who shot up the school in Florida was completely isolated, mentally disturbed, etc. and that we should resolve to step forward and befriend people who are messed up and isolated.

 

 

 

He wasn't completely isolated.  He was living with a friend's family following the death of his mother.  It sounds like the friend's parents had been encouraging him to continue taking some classes or work training.  But obviously they wouldn't be able to take the place of his mother.  

 

I heard another student say that this guy was shunned even by the group of students who were considered to be outcasts.   I wouldn't blame anyone for shunning this guy if it's true that he was doing things like trying to sell knives at school, bragging about killing animals, and carrying bullets around.  

 

Yesterday I heard several tv people refer to this guy rather unkindly in terms of being slight, his short stature, and his weight.   My first thought on hearing these comments (as a petite woman) was that I wonder how many times the guy has been teased for his size in his lifetime.  I've heard it my whole life, and I feel like it's probably harder for a boy.  And this could make powerful weapons all the more attractive.    Certainly many people have been teased and they don't turn into killers or even develop mental health problems because of it, but it's still something I've wondered about given that being tall is so revered in our society.     

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think the country is going to have to swing back towards putting more people in psychiatric hospitals. The community mental health movement was a great thing, but many people just don't cooperate with it. If the laws were changed around involuntary commitment to hospitals it might help get people some services. They changes would have to be carefully implemented to avoid reverting to the old way of hospitalizing people for the rest of their lives when they were just a bit odd or something. This will of course require more funding.

 

And those places were like prisons.  Not to mention it tends to actually make people worse off to the point they never get out of there. 

 

I don't know what the answer is though. 

 

[freesia]

The other thing I struggle with is that it is really important to teach our kids to set and maintain boundaries. Kids like this tend not to respect boundaries. It's not the fault of the kids who recognized he was "off" that he was isolated. They honored their intuition.

 

It's a sad situation all around but the solution isn't to tell our kids to befriend kids that send off their alarms or don't respect their boundaries.

[Laurie]

I don't know.  DD has always been incredibly empathetic and reaches out to outsiders and anyone she feels like needs a friend.  More than once this got her involved with people who had problems that she was not equipped to handle at that age. I walked her through things as best I could, but it's scary.  And yes could be dangerous.  

 

 I don't remember any peer counseling type programs when I was in school, but I think schools would be wise to get more students like your daughter involved but with counselors or other adults always available to step in.   

 

The guy in this latest shooting supposedly told his friend  that he doesn't go to school on Valentine's day, and in the past he's gotten into a fight with his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.  In my state, one of the school shootings involved a break-up.  It seems like peer counselors in schools would be in a much better position than the adults to know who has just broken up and who might be angry or upset enough to hurt self/others.      

[SparklyUnicorn]

My mother had some family members who spent pretty much their entire adult lives in mental institutions.  Two cousins committed suicide while in said institutions.  When they stopped doing such things her other family members (and she) led a much better life.  Not a perfect life no since living with a severe mental illness is never perfect.  But she managed to live without being treated like a caged animal.  So I REALLY do not want to see things going back to that. 

 

And truth be told, MOST people with a mental illness would not hurt anyone.  It's not always possible to tell who will and who will not and I do believe in barring them from certain situations (and from owning guns), but to just lock them up because they get a particular diagnosis, no that's not right.

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

Psych wards need to be places people *want* to go when they need to. It needs to be socially acceptable to say "Oh yeah, I'm going in while I get my meds changed over" and for the socially normal response to be "Oh good, it beats doing it at home by yourself." 

[gardenmom5]

This alone shows the huge lack of proper services......services for the parents and the child. A family in our area has called and called for help for their teen son but keep being told there is nothing that can be done until he "......" (Basically does something horrible. Funding for mental health services, residential, even proper safe living arrangements for those not safe in society is severely lacking and the current administration is not helping this crisis at all.

 

 

what you are wanting - is a change in the law.  it goes way beyond funding mental health services (I agree, needs to be better.  but better funding wont' get help for a teenager who doesn't want help.  making it easier to commit someone - runs the risk of locking up otherwise sane people.)

  since the 70's when the attitude changed to: we can't violate the rights of the mentally ill by forcing them into treatment without a court order.  

 

 - the law will not allow anyone to force any person into a treatment program, or mental health services.  *until* such time as they can reasonably be considered to be a threat to other's or themselves.  that's harder than you may realize.

 

I've a friend whose daughter the state started the process to involuntarily commit.  (she had a brain tumor - the exams during the commitment process are where it was finally discovered.  despite her regularly being seen by a psychiatrist who brushed off other symptoms.)

 

  so even if mental health services were easily available - doesn't mean the kid would have received them. AND - once a child reaches a certain age - (13? 15?) - there are certain medical care that the parents have NO RIGHT to even know about if the child says they don't' want their parent to know - even if they're under 18.  such as mental health services.

 

 

 

 

 

 

there were lots of flags about this kid, not just the local pd - he'd been reported to the fbi for stating he wanted to shoot up the school back in september  - but people were afraid to do anything because "he hasn't actually done anything".

[SparklyUnicorn]

Psych wards need to be places people *want* to go when they need to. It needs to be socially acceptable to say "Oh yeah, I'm going in while I get my meds changed over" and for the socially normal response to be "Oh good, it beats doing it at home by yourself." 

 

That would be amazing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's a very good point. I guess it's like drug rehab to an extent. No one wants to go I would guess, but from what I hear they aren't these dismal jails and people do chose in the end to go. Some of the commercials look like resorts.

 

But money is the factor there. The people we know who have sent family members to rehab type set ups have spent tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't think most people can afford that. I have no idea if something even remotely comparable exists for mental illness here though. The psychiatric places that do in housing I've seen around here seem to get bought out repeatedly and shift names, which makes me wonder how stable anything to do with them is. 

 

I don't know if there are such places either.  My dad has been to places that were like country clubs and then to state hospitals.  He did well in the good places (one place in particular was on a farm and they did farm stuff and he said it was a good distraction for him, but the place got shut down because nobody wanted to fund it).  The state hospitals are prison like.  That was a very long time ago.  Now they don't send people to hospitals very often. 

 

They do also have day treatment programs that are done outpatient. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Years ago I came across an article about a place that hooks people up with adults who have an illness.  Sort of like big brothers/sisters for adults.  I considered doing it, but I dunno.  I'm kinda burnt out.  I'm also a lousy judge of whether or not people are off their rocker because if you are around that long enough you don't notice it so much. 

 

 

[ondreeuh]

Psych wards need to be places people *want* to go when they need to. It needs to be socially acceptable to say "Oh yeah, I'm going in while I get my meds changed over" and for the socially normal response to be "Oh good, it beats doing it at home by yourself." 

 

I actually have seen that scenario several times. I know people who have had very positive experience in both outpatient and inpatient programs, and voluntarily joined each because they believed it would be helpful. There are numerous celebrities (Selena Gomez, Salma Hayek, Demi Lovato, Lily Allen, Russel Brand, etc.) who have spoken openly about their need to be hospitalized to attend to their mental illness. The stigma is lessening a bit, and more people are understanding that mental illness doesn't mean crazy or dangerous, but an imbalance that can be treated.

 

Holy cow - look at this list of celebrities with bipolar disorder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_bipolar_disorder

[freesia]

The in-between has to happen . A smile, a conversation when appropriate, inclusion when the disturbed person is able. A nudge to respect the boundary. The shunning has to stop...the walls are too high, the child on the edge needs to see what normal behavior is.

Yes, shunning needs to stop-- but what if you smile and are kind and then the other child starts following you around being inappropriate or mean or saying disturbing things. At some point cutting them off is the healthy thing. (This isn't hypothetical in my familiy's life fwiw).

 

Even in this board we talk about cutting contact with toxic individuals. Not all kids who are isolated in school would be healthy friends if given a chance.

 

This child was one that kids predicted would be the most likely to do this. That's a child that needs more than some understanding friends.

[ondreeuh]

I don't know if there are such places either.  My dad has been to places that were like country clubs and then to state hospitals.  He did well in the good places (one place in particular was on a farm and they did farm stuff and he said it was a good distraction for him, but the place got shut down because nobody wanted to fund it).  The state hospitals are prison like.  That was a very long time ago.  Now they don't send people to hospitals very often. 

 

They do also have day treatment programs that are done outpatient. 

 

Hm, I think inpatient hospital programs are not unusual. The ones I have seen are voluntary only, but they are located in a main hospital. There is an emphasis on medication management/mood stabilization and also individual and group therapy, including art therapy, animal therapy, etc.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hm, I think inpatient hospital programs are not unusual. The ones I have seen are voluntary only, but they are located in a main hospital. There is an emphasis on medication management/mood stabilization and also individual and group therapy, including art therapy, animal therapy, etc.

 

Not unusual, but very short term and for medication stabilization (going by the most recent person in my family to utilize such a thing).  There were no special therapies though.

[ondreeuh]

Not unusual, but very short term and for medication stabilization (going by the most recent person in my family to utilize such a thing).  There were no special therapies though.

 

Is 2-3 weeks very short term? The point is to get them out of crisis and to the point they are safe to go home and follow up with outpatient treatment. 

 

If you are talking about long-term residential programs, then yes, I don't think those are at hospitals very often anymore. We have a family friend whose son was unable to be safe at home, and they found a place halfway across the country for him to live. It was a therapeutic residential program, and I believe he was there for about a year. He is now back home and doing well. Given how far they had to travel, I assume those programs are rare (but so needed!).

[SparklyUnicorn]

Is 2-3 weeks very short term? The point is to get them out of crisis and to the point they are safe to go home and follow up with outpatient treatment. 

 

If you are talking about long-term residential programs, then yes, I don't think those are at hospitals very often anymore. We have a family friend whose son was unable to be safe at home, and they found a place halfway across the country for him to live. It was a therapeutic residential program, and I believe he was there for about a year. He is now back home and doing well. Given how far they had to travel, I assume those programs are rare (but so needed!).

 

It's longer within the realm of short term.

 

My sister goes in probably every other year for about a week.  Insurance doesn't want to pay for more.

[gardenmom5]

Psych wards need to be places people *want* to go when they need to. It needs to be socially acceptable to say "Oh yeah, I'm going in while I get my meds changed over" and for the socially normal response to be "Oh good, it beats doing it at home by yourself." 

 

how many mentally ill people do you know well?

we've had any number of threads about a mentally ill loved one who refuse meds - on  a good day. (and as an outpatient.)  because "there is nothing wrong with them."

I also have mentally ill family members - bil pulled a knife on his mother after she took him to a psychiatrist, once.  as far as he was concerned - there was nothing wrong with him.  he could be scary.

 

eta.  i'm not talking avoiding stigma, but mentally ill who think they're fine and other people are the problem.

Edited February 16, 2018 by gardenmom5

[SparklyUnicorn]

how many mentally ill people do you know well?

we've had any number of threads about a mentally ill loved one who refuse meds - on  a good day. (and as an outpatient.)  because "there is nothing wrong with them."

I also have mentally ill family members - bil pulled a knife on his mother after she took him to a psychiatrist, once.  as far as he was concerned - there was nothing wrong with him.  he could be scary.

 

Yeah that is true.

 

But part of their refusal of meds is often the stigma.  Absolutely. 

[gardenmom5]

Yeah that is true.

 

But part of their refusal of meds is often the stigma.  Absolutely. 

 

my bil didn't care about stigma.  he wanted to do what he wanted to do without interference.    he lived in a flophouse - one step up from homeless.  but he could be scary and i hated having him in my house with my kids.

he denied he was mentally ill.  access or not to care was irrelevant.  as far as he was concerned, it was everyone else. i'm positive he was schizophrenic.  the scary kind.

[gardenmom5]

Ugh. Guys. Use your common sense.

 

Most people with 'a mental illness' are not stalkers in waiting.

 

If your spidey sense goes off with ANYONE, ill or not, back away quickly.

 

I am so sad reading all these threads over the past few days which are just full of stigma for the mentally ill.

 

And yes, I know people with mental illness, including schizophrenia. Let me tell you, people backing away because 'you might pull a knife on me' when there is ZERO evidence this person has or will do so, is simply cruel.

 

i've experienced both kinds.

most are more likely to hurt themselves - but some can be unpredictably dangerous to others.  my bil was the latter kind.

[Rosie_0801]

how many mentally ill people do you know well?

we've had any number of threads about a mentally ill loved one who refuse meds - on  a good day. (and as an outpatient.)  because "there is nothing wrong with them."

I also have mentally ill family members - bil pulled a knife on his mother after she took him to a psychiatrist, once.  as far as he was concerned - there was nothing wrong with him.  he could be scary.

 

eta.  i'm not talking avoiding stigma, but mentally ill who think they're fine and other people are the problem.

 

Enough that I'm not completely talking out of my you-know-what, and the rest of what you said in no way invalidates what I said so I'm not sure what fault you're wanting me to admit to. You appear to be criticising me for not talking about apples when I had chosen to talk about oranges.

[SparklyUnicorn]

my bil didn't care about stigma.  he wanted to do what he wanted to do without interference.    he lived in a flophouse - one step up from homeless.  but he could be scary and i hated having him in my house with my kids.

he denied he was mentally ill.  access or not to care was irrelevant.  as far as he was concerned, it was everyone else. i'm positive he was schizophrenic.  the scary kind.

 

It's not uncommon.  It took my parents probably a good 15 years to stop attempting to go off meds because they were either in denial or hated the side effects (or didn't want to spend the money on them).  My sister went through that as well.  I think people don't realize that the meds might make the person more tolerable to be around, but it doesn't necessarily make the person taking them feel all that great.  They can make you tired, dull, depressed, etc.

[unsinkable]

https://compeer.org/who-we-are/

 

"THE COMPEER ORGANIZATION

Compeer is a respected, established nonprofit organization with over 40 years of experience in delivering positive client outcomes at lower costs for individuals with a spectrum of mental disorders. Founded in New York State in 1973, today Compeer oversees an international network of affiliates in the U.S., Canada and Australia, providing training, consultation, best practices management, marketing/communications, recruitment strategies and administrative support. Compeer affiliates maintain autonomy over their individual operations, programs, resources and funding.

 

Compeer’s community-based locations serve on average thousands of individuals with mental illness or emotional challenges including youth, veterans and older adults, plus their families, annually. Screened, trained, monitored, and caring volunteers are matched by Compeer professional staff with referred clients in one-to-one supportive friendship/mentoring relationships based on gender, age, interests. Compeer, an adjunct to therapy, is an effective intervention for people who want to live in the community to achieve a high quality of life. Matches meet weekly for one year in safe environments using natural supports, sharing decision-making around activities, place, and time.

 

MAKING FRIENDS, CHANGING LIVES

Based on the time-honored tradition that the support of friends is healing, Compeer affiliates “make friends and change lives.†Compeer has often been called “The Friendship Program†by community members familiar with the Compeer Program. And aptly so.

 

Friendship is about being there for someone. But for people with mental illness, too often there is no one to turn to when they need a friend. That’s where Compeer steps in.

 

A pioneer in mental-health advocacy, Compeer affiliates’ volunteer-based programs and services – which serve as a complement to therapy – empower people to become more socially integrated and to combat the effects of mental illness, from loneliness to isolation and low self-worth. Compeer volunteers and matched friends often say that the friendship has changed two lives: the volunteer’s and their friend’s.

 

The generosity of our volunteers and donors have helped Compeer make friends and change lives for more than 40 years. "

[Mimm]

Psych wards need to be places people *want* to go when they need to. It needs to be socially acceptable to say "Oh yeah, I'm going in while I get my meds changed over" and for the socially normal response to be "Oh good, it beats doing it at home by yourself." 

 

In addition, there needs to be more accessibility. I know this is like a broken record, everyone's saying, but they're saying it because it's true. There simply aren't enough therapists, psychiatrists, or beds in the psych wards. To get a spot in a psych ward, you have to try to kill yourself or at least threaten to. And once you do that, it's very much outside of your control what happens to you. You get transferred to where they have space for you, and you stay till they want to release you.

[MotherGoose]

Rather than the mental hospital model, I would rather see more therapeutic group homes. These are more expensive but much more effective and don't isolate from society. If a young person can't succeed there then a hospital is certainly warranted. so I do think we still need them. I just think that funding and red tape need to be streamlined, and better guidance provided as to the available options. But I would like to see more intensive in-home therapy and therapeutic group home options put forth. So much more could be done with this model and it feels like a much less drastic step than putting a child in a mental hospital. Even if your dc is exhibiting dangerous behaviors there is a desire to still hold back and try one more thing before resorting to something that seems that extreme. A better understanding of service options and a feeling of more involvement in the treatment for parents, I think, would allow them to act sooner before escalation that is harder to come back from.

 

 

ETA: I am referencing in-patient hospital treatment vs therapeutic group home. Acute hospitalizations (which are only for a week to 10 days, usually just to stabilize the patient) are different than what I am talking about. A therapeutic group home stay could be for a couple of months or longer just like an in-patient hospitalization. The difference is the setting.

I agree. I think the laws about involuntary commitment of adults and children should be loosened though. Parents can commit their minor children with relatively less difficulty, but it's very hard to get services for older teens/ young adults if they refuse.

[Ottakee]

There are not enough psych beds available. Kids/teens are often sent 3-5 hours away just to locate an open bed.....any bed. others are held in ER for days....and then sent home as there are no beds. If they do get a bed they are often sent home way too early. Parents that say they aren't ready to come home/able to keep everyone safe, etc and charged with neglect/abandonment and risk losing their other children.

 

Funding for therapists paid for by insurance/medicaid is terrible as well. One therapist I know has to limit her medicaid patient load as it costs her more for daycare for 2 kids than she gets from medicaid.

 

Families First programs in our area have been eliminated. These were intensive in home programs design to keep families safely together.

 

I could go on and on. Prevention and intervention programs as well as psychiatric hospital beds and residential services are so underfunded. Wages for care staff are so low that turnover is high. Often McDonalds pays more than caregivers for the mentally Ill/autistic/special needs.

[Laurie]

 

 

If people mean - don't befriend someone with a conduct disorder, or schizophrenia with a history of violence to others, or anyone with a Cluster B diagnosis, then for goodness sake's, say that. And be aware that those people face great stigma.

 

OP - there are volunteer peer support programs for people with a chronic mental illness where I live. Isolation is a real problem.

 

I agree with you that being honest is best.   My own feeling is that other people's safety should be the higher priority than the comfort of a violent person, though. 

 

I know a woman who's  very involved with her church and their outreach to people with schizophrenia.   She  told me that when a new family with kids would visit their church  someone would typically let them know what they could expect.  This may scare some people off, but it was important to be honest with them.   So there are people who want to help mentally ill people like this,   but there shouldn't be a stigma attached to people who don't want to get involved either.     

[Laurie]

 

 

Honestly, people would be just as wise - wiser, actually - to avoid those who drink too much, or take certain drugs - the correlation between alcohol/drugs and violence is WAY stronger, and substance use is a better predictor of unpredicatable behaviours. (It can co-exist with mental illness, and it can be the primary issue also in otherwise 'well' people.)

 

I agree with you.  I'm truly afraid of people who aren't in their right minds because of alcohol or drug abuse.  

 

I read the article you linked.  The study that showed that violence in people with schizophrenia was more likely when they're also using illegal drugs makes sense to me.   I'm guessing that drugs and alcohol probably make most mental health problems worse, too.  Very recently a woman in our city was brutally murdered in her own home by a stranger.  The man who killed her was bipolar, off his medicaitons, and high on drugs at the time, according to his father who had called the police to get help finding him.   

[GoodGrief]

This alone shows the huge lack of proper services......services for the parents and the child. A family in our area has called and called for help for their teen son but keep being told there is nothing that can be done until he "......" (Basically does something horrible. Funding for mental health services, residential, even proper safe living arrangements for those not safe in society is severely lacking and the current administration is not helping this crisis at all.

 

With all due respect, I can attest personally to the fact that the previous administration had little interest in improving mental health for our youth in crisis, I came frighteningly close to losing a daughter, despite having "good" military insurance and being beyond proactive in seeking out resources.

 

In fairness, the issue is complicated and bureaucracy rarely deals well with nuance. So it's not been an issue politicians care to tackle.

[MotherGoose]

With all due respect, I can attest personally to the fact that the previous administration had little interest in improving mental health for our youth in crisis, I came frighteningly close to losing a daughter, despite having "good" military insurance and being beyond proactive in seeking out resources.

 

In fairness, the issue is complicated and bureaucracy rarely deals well with nuance. So it's not been an issue politicians care to tackle.

I agree. This issue has been happening for many years. Decades.

[GoodGrief]

There are not enough psych beds available. Kids/teens are often sent 3-5 hours away just to locate an open bed.....any bed. others are held in ER for days....and then sent home as there are no beds. If they do get a bed they are often sent home way too early. Parents that say they aren't ready to come home/able to keep everyone safe, etc and charged with neglect/abandonment and risk losing their other children.

 

Funding for therapists paid for by insurance/medicaid is terrible as well. One therapist I know has to limit her medicaid patient load as it costs her more for daycare for 2 kids than she gets from medicaid.

 

Families First programs in our area have been eliminated. These were intensive in home programs design to keep families safely together.

 

I could go on and on. Prevention and intervention programs as well as psychiatric hospital beds and residential services are so underfunded. Wages for care staff are so low that turnover is high. Often McDonalds pays more than caregivers for the mentally Ill/autistic/special needs.

 

My daughter had to travel literally thousands of miles to get care at a residential center that was 1. appropriate for her diagnosis and 2. that would take our insurance (which only covered 60 days for the year, which sounds like a lot but is not if you are talking about making a definitive determination on diagnosis, determine the appropriate medication, set a treatment plan in place, work out a follow-up plan.)

 

Don't get me started on the endless attempts to communicate with United Healthcare.

 

In the end, I had to come up with the follow-up plan. My daughter had to wait months for a therapy spot to open up at a center that dealt with her particular problem. She went through three psychiatrists in the meantime...one changed insurance plans, one abruptly left practice, the third was just not a fit.

 

It's truly a miracle that she is relatively well and functional now. It certainly wasn't thanks to the system.

[HS Mom in NC]

I've been deeply troubled hearing parents talk about befriending the outcast in these kinds of shooter scenarios because they're far too generalized.  The geeky, dorky, awkward, anxious kid?  Sure.   The kid who's creeping people out or threatening? NO WAY! Read Protecting The Gift by Gavin Debecker and then read it to your kids.  Just about every person he ever met who had been harmed and lived to tell the story had over-ridden their internal alarm system and tuned into idealistic, over-generalized social messages. You can't befriend the dangerous behavior out of a dangerous mentally ill person. 

[Mergath]

Ugh. Guys. Use your common sense.

 

Most people with 'a mental illness' are not stalkers in waiting.

 

If your spidey sense goes off with ANYONE, ill or not, back away quickly.

 

I am so sad reading all these threads over the past few days which are just full of stigma for the mentally ill.

 

And yes, I know people with mental illness, including schizophrenia. Let me tell you, people backing away because 'you might pull a knife on me' when there is ZERO evidence this person has or will do so, is simply cruel.

 

:iagree:  Talking about "the mentally ill" as a monolithic group is all but useless, because you've got a spectrum that runs from "I have panic attacks sometimes," to "the voices told me to use my neighbor's cat as a tea cozy." 

 

Technically I'm mentally ill, but I'm more likely to pull a magic eraser on you than a knife.  :lol:

[Mergath]

In addition, there needs to be more accessibility. I know this is like a broken record, everyone's saying, but they're saying it because it's true. There simply aren't enough therapists, psychiatrists, or beds in the psych wards. To get a spot in a psych ward, you have to try to kill yourself or at least threaten to. And once you do that, it's very much outside of your control what happens to you. You get transferred to where they have space for you, and you stay till they want to release you.

 

Exactly. Whenever these conversations come up and people start talking about bringing back institutions, I'm like, "Hey, why don't we shoot for consistent, cheap, widely available mental health care first? Because that's something this country hasn't tried yet."

 

We have a mental health crisis because we have no mental health care. A lot of people with severe mental illness don't have health insurance. If they do, finding a competent psychiatrist within a hundred miles who isn't swamped with too many patients is like finding a freaking unicorn. If you do find one, then you have to figure out how to pay for your meds, which can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month if your insurance doesn't have good prescription coverage. Then, ideally, you find a therapist to work with, because therapy in conjunction with meds is the most successful treatment.

 

Let's give everyone access to all of the above first. Then we can talk about institutions. 

[Mergath]

I've been deeply troubled hearing parents talk about befriending the outcast in these kinds of shooter scenarios because they're far too generalized.  The geeky, dorky, awkward, anxious kid?  Sure.   The kid who's creeping people out or threatening? NO WAY! Read Protecting The Gift by Gavin Debecker and then read it to your kids.  Just about every person he ever met who had been harmed and lived to tell the story had over-ridden their internal alarm system and tuned into idealistic, over-generalized social messages. You can't befriend the dangerous behavior out of a dangerous mentally ill person. 

 

Or we could stop stereotyping kids into these kinds of categories all together. I mean, seriously? Dorky kids are okay, but creepy kids should be shunned? Wtf?

 

This kind of thinking- societal shunning of even young children who make us uncomfortable- is a big part of how we got here in the first place. 

 

For what it's worth, I've gotten to know a lot of people who initially made me uneasy. None of them turned out to be mass murderers or serial killers. Go ahead and freak out at me and tell me that's dangerous advice, but sometimes making society better for everyone means taking risks. 

[AimeeM]

I don't know.  DD has always been incredibly empathetic and reaches out to outsiders and anyone she feels like needs a friend.  More than once this got her involved with people who had problems that she was not equipped to handle at that age. I walked her through things as best I could, but it's scary.  And yes could be dangerous.  

 

nm

Edited February 17, 2018 by AimeeM

[HS Mom in NC]

Or we could stop stereotyping kids into these kinds of categories all together. I mean, seriously? Dorky kids are okay, but creepy kids should be shunned? Wtf?

 

This kind of thinking- societal shunning of even young children who make us uncomfortable- is a big part of how we got here in the first place. 

 

For what it's worth, I've gotten to know a lot of people who initially made me uneasy. None of them turned out to be mass murderers or serial killers. Go ahead and freak out at me and tell me that's dangerous advice, but sometimes making society better for everyone means taking risks. 

 

I'm not talking about societal thinking about who's cool and who isn't.  I'm talking about intuition and risk assessment.  The fact is, people are hardwired to pick up subtle cues in risky situations and when we over-ride those, we put kids at risk.  I know it doesn't fit everyone's ideal that dangerous mental illness and disturbing behavior can't be solved by having a buddy, but you talk to psychiatrists and they'll tell you that it won't work.  People aren't mentally ill because they are shunned-people shun people who show disturbing, anti-social behavior.  I'm not talking about a kid whose behavior is unpopular and the kids who want to be part of the elite crowd join in the shunning-I was VERY careful to specify creepy and threatening behavior. 

 

I've been around someone that mentally ill-relationships are potential targets, not salves for mental illness. The kid in this case and other cases like it were people even kids could intuitively pick up as being someone to avoid.  They were right. 

 

Life isn't fair.  Life isn't as simple as we desperately want it to be. Good intentions are not substitute for medical mental health intervention. There are very dangerous people out there and we need to make sure we're not exposing people to them. 

 

Seriously, read the book.  You need more classifications of people in your mind.  Some people need to be away from society because they're too dangerous and until they are we to teach people to steer clear of them.

[Mergath]

I'm not talking about societal thinking about who's cool and who isn't.  I'm talking about intuition and risk assessment.  The fact is, people are hardwired to pick up subtle cues in risky situations and when we over-ride those, we put kids at risk.  I know it doesn't fit everyone's ideal that dangerous mental illness and disturbing behavior can't be solved by having a buddy, but you talk to psychiatrists and they'll tell you that it won't work.  People aren't mentally ill because they are shunned-people shun people who show disturbing, anti-social behavior.  I'm not talking about a kid whose behavior is unpopular and the kids who want to be part of the elite crowd join in the shunning-I was VERY careful to specify creepy and threatening behavior. 

 

I've been around someone that mentally ill-relationships are potential targets, not salves for mental illness. The kid in this case and other cases like it were people even kids could intuitively pick up as being someone to avoid.  They were right. 

 

Life isn't fair.  Life isn't as simple as we desperately want it to be. Good intentions are not substitute for medical mental health intervention. There are very dangerous people out there and we need to make sure we're not exposing people to them. 

 

Seriously, read the book.  You need more classifications of people in your mind.  Some people need to be away from society because they're too dangerous and until they are we to teach people to steer clear of them.

 

I've heard enough times what the book says, and to be honest I'd rather do just about anything else on the planet than read one of de Becker's books. And I try not to "classify" people. Ew.

 

Intuition and gut instinct are fallible because the human mind isn't perfect. If, for example, I was sexually assaulted by a guy with, I don't know, red hair and freckles as a young child, there's a good chance that guys with red hair and freckles are going to make me uneasy as an adult. I might not even know why if I don't have clear memories of the experience. I might attribute my uneasiness of the red-haired, freckled guy working at the local coffee shop to my stunning insight. I might even tell everyone else that the guy creeps me out, so he must be a Bad Guy and they should all avoid him too. In reality, the guy is perfectly nice and I've just made his life significantly harder because I don't have enough insight into my own prejudices and their causes.

 

And the kids didn't have to "intuitively" pick this kid out as dangerous. He tortured animals and showed off pictures of his weapons to people. They didn't need pretend psychic powers to figure out that he had some issues and it would be better to stay away from him.

[G5052]

And the kids didn't have to "intuitively" pick this kid out as dangerous. He tortured animals and showed off pictures of his weapons to people. They didn't need pretend psychic powers to figure out that he had some issues and it would be better to stay away from him.

 

I raised my kids to trust their gut on that type of things. Also that it wasn't their job to help everyone. Some people need professional help and/or refuse help, and it's fine to keep your distance.

 

I saw this statement too and cringed. I'm separated from my husband because of his mental health issues, and it triggered me. Certainly there are some that are helped by friends, but there are some that are not. It rang like all the messages I heard that said that if I had just been a better wife, we wouldn't be living apart. But we are living apart. I spent years before in therapy trying to "get by" and then more sessions afterwards trying to work through the aftermath. It's been six months now, and I'm finally feeling on solid ground.

 

Yes, be there for your friends, but I tell mine that you can't help everyone. There's a line where you need to step away when it is crossed.

[MotherGoose]

Exactly. Whenever these conversations come up and people start talking about bringing back institutions, I'm like, "Hey, why don't we shoot for consistent, cheap, widely available mental health care first? Because that's something this country hasn't tried yet."

 

We have a mental health crisis because we have no mental health care. A lot of people with severe mental illness don't have health insurance. If they do, finding a competent psychiatrist within a hundred miles who isn't swamped with too many patients is like finding a freaking unicorn. If you do find one, then you have to figure out how to pay for your meds, which can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month if your insurance doesn't have good prescription coverage. Then, ideally, you find a therapist to work with, because therapy in conjunction with meds is the most successful treatment.

 

Let's give everyone access to all of the above first. Then we can talk about institutions.

I definitely agree with you. I used to work in the state mental health system where most people had Medicaid or were disabled from their mental illness and on Medicaid. I also worked as a designated examiner to determine whether or not people should be committed to hospitals. So I saw people who had access to services. I realize that there is an enormous population without access.

 

I'm thinking about this current shooter in Florida, where I read that the police were called numerous times to his home, but they couldn't do anything. Someone was even concerned enough to call the FBI on him. I do not know all the details about it. He had been in foster care, so presumably he had Medicaid within the past year or so. When I talk about relaxing involuntary commitment laws to some sort of institution I'm talking about people like him: everyone knows there is something badly wrong, but because it's not bad enough yet, nothing can be done if he refuses treatment.

[BlsdMama]

Yes, shunning needs to stop-- but what if you smile and are kind and then the other child starts following you around being inappropriate or mean or saying disturbing things. At some point cutting them off is the healthy thing. (This isn't hypothetical in my familiy's life fwiw).

 

Even in this board we talk about cutting contact with toxic individuals. Not all kids who are isolated in school would be healthy friends if given a chance.

 

This child was one that kids predicted would be the most likely to do this. That's a child that needs more than some understanding friends.

 

 

Yes, it's incredibly unfair to the rest of the kids in that school who have just been through an incredibly traumatic experience to say, "Gee guys, you all should have been nice to him."

 

How many of us would meet up with someone who brags about killing animals and think, "You know, I should take him cookies.  He needs a hug.  I'll invite him for dinner with my family."

 

So this has to go way back and I can't help but wonder how far back?

 

Because my kids are in school for the FIRST time ever (PreK 3 and PreK4) and my husband said a couple weeks ago, "Wow, the pressure to conform comes FROM the school." And it does.  The assemblies where everyone chants the same song and are pressured to conform.  The days where they must wear the same things - red day, gold day, wear your team shirt day, wear your pajama day, and as I go out and buy a gold shirt, a new set of cute pajamas that isn't a nightgown for Cate, etc., what about the kids whose mommy can't go out and get those?  Or who isn't organized?  Does that kid feel separated from his peers?

 

He has to, doesn't he?  Even if the other kids don't care, doesn't he feel separated?  Self conscious?

 

Then you have the kids with reading disabilities.  1 in 5 - 20% have dyslexia.  They estimate the amount of dyslexics in prison to be 50%.  

[MedicMom]

As the mother of a child with mental illness, to the point he is in a class for children with serious emotional disabilities, this whole thread is incredibly disturbing to me.

 

No one is saying you have to be BFFs. It’s about being nice and civil. Say hi, smile, be a good person. That’s all.