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Science+Lab Credit - Help me think this through (and some CA a-g talk)


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Most colleges require 2-3 years of Lab Science in your high school years. So we were thinking Bio, Physics, Chem (in whatever order) and probably adding in a 4th year for rigor's sake.

 

Most sciences offered online are 'Lab Science' for a single science credit. And i know there's still debate over whether colleges even accept homeschool 'lab sciences' anyway so it could even be a moot point transcript-wise.

 

Here is my quandary. 

 

We had planned to use a combination of the below classes (so far) with various kids:

WTMA Bio

Clover Creek Physics

Derek Owens Physics

Chemadvantage AP Chem

etc.

 

Up until next year, from what I understand, all of the above were Science w/ Lab. Great! But WTMA has changed their sciences to separate their science classes and labs. So that now adds both more time & cost (you meet 3x a week if you include a separate lab + the cost is $650+$325=$975 - for 1-1/2 science credits).

 

So long story short (too late - sorry!)

 

1. Do we continue with WTMA with NO lab (can't afford nearly $1000 for a single class and can't devote 3 live days per week to a single class) and just call it Biology w/ Lab on our transcript - by adding in labs on our own?

 

2. Or do the above and just call it Biology on our transcript - and do the same for the others "Physics" being physics, "Chemistry" being chemistry etc and just not specify lab or no. Do transcripts even specify lab or no lab - does it even really matter?

 

3. Or do we scratch WTMA and find a different provider (maybe Open Tent?) that includes a lab in the price/class?

 

Help!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mirabillis
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I would be comfortable going without the lab if you use WTMA and I would do some very minimal homebaked labs.

 

I would just list Biology, Physics, Chemistry. I think those are assumed to be lab sciences. It is what I have done with my two kids so far and is my plan for the younger kids.

 

As always , the disclaimer that my kids don't apply to top tier schools (they apply to top 200 schools, not top 20). For most schools I don't see a problem. There is always a chance it will matter somewhere but I don't think most transcripts are scrutinized in this way.

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...And i know there's still debate over whether colleges even accept homeschool 'lab sciences' anyway so it could even be a moot point transcript-wise...

 

It's a moot point because colleges routinely and without question *accept* homeschool lab sciences, not the reverse. ;)

 

I've not heard of any universities NOT accepting homeschool labs as a matter of course, with ONE exception. The only university I've heard of that is "sticky" about homeschool science labs is ASU, which is a bit snotty about wanting to see you used "real" equipment list for the labs (beakers, test tubes, and  graduated cylinders -- rather than glass cups, jars, and measuring cups),  and ASU requires homeschoolers to fill out extra paperwork about the labs for each science course. An extra pain, but doable.

 

 

...WTMA has changed their sciences to separate their science classes and labs. So that now adds both more time & cost (you meet 3x a week if you include a separate lab + the cost is $650+$325=$975 - for 1-1/2 science credits)....

 

1. Do we continue with WTMA with NO lab (can't afford nearly $1000 for a single class and can't devote 3 live days per week to a single class) and just call it Biology w/ Lab on our transcript - by adding in labs on our own?

 

2. Or do the above and just call it Biology on our transcript - and do the same for the others "Physics" being physics, "Chemistry" being chemistry etc and just not specify lab or no. Do transcripts even specify lab or no lab - does it even really matter?

 

3. Or do we scratch WTMA and find a different provider (maybe Open Tent?) that includes a lab in the price/class?

 

Any one of your 3 options would work fine. :)

 

If going with option #1 and #2, you can add some "live" lab kits, or do some Virtual labs (or, even some of the virtual labs that go with McGraw Hill Glencoe's textbook, which is what is used in the WTMA Biology) -- That way all 3 of your sciences would be "with labs (either all "live" labs or 2 "live" and 1 "virtual").

 

And while I'm all for supporting WTMA, and for paying a teacher what they are worth (because most of the time teachers are so under-paid) -- $650 for 1.0 credit, and then having to add another $325 for the lab to go with it makes me gasp for air...  :scared:  :eek:  :svengo:

 

At that price, dual enrollment of Biology at your local community college has GOT to be somewhat competitive ... AND it has the advantage of working in advance towards the Natural Science gen. ed. required credit towards a degree! Just a thought. :)

 

Another option, if you're able to switch to Apologia Biology, would be to go with the FREE Virtual Homeschool Co-op online support class. 

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide. :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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If the class has a good lab component, I would list it on the transcript as "with lab." Some of the universities are picky an out how many "lab" sciences a student has. (And my kid is not looking at top tier schools!) I've seen 1-3 required.

 

Cost and student time during the week are both factors to consider. It will really be up to you based on the needs of your family. (Cost and time wise, we wouldn't pick a class with a separate lab unless we weren't planning on doing the lab.)

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 And i know there's still debate over whether colleges even accept homeschool 'lab sciences' anyway so it could even be a moot point transcript-wise.

 

I have never heard of colleges questioning homeschool labs.

You can do labs at home.

 

Do transcripts even specify lab or no lab - does it even really matter?

 

I have listed on the transcripts whether a course was with lab or not, so colleges can see that we satisfied the lab science requirements.

Edited by regentrude
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I think the lab component is important to list on the transcript -- some colleges require it (anywhere from 1-3 was our experience too).  But, I also think you can be fairly flexible with how you do the labs.  You can probably get an inexpensive workbook of "Simple Chemistry Experiments You Can Do at Home" or something like that.  And there are virtual labs for more complicated experiments.  You can choose some that pertain to whatever you're studying.

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I can sort of understand why WTMA has adopted this change, but it will ensure we donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t do any science classes with them, unfortunately. For one, I canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t justify giving 1.5 or 2 Science credits per year (it will look like padding the transcript, IMHO) and we cannot afford another live class meeting (schedule is too full as is).

 

Like someone else upthread said, an all WTMA line up for 9th might look something like this:

 

Math 1 credit

Foreign Language 1 credit

Literature 1 credit

Rhetoric 1 credit

History 1 credit

Science 1.5-2 credits

Elective 1 credit

 

7.5-8 is waaaaaay to much for MY 9th grader on top of her 18-20 hours per week in a pre-pro Ballet program. We need to streamline, so weĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re going with a Great Books class that covers history, lit, & comp and an asynchronous Science class. We may forego elective credits entirely or assign one or more to her dance training.

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thanks everyone for weighing in! 

 

we've decided we may go with WTMA Biology without lab - and add labs at home. We just found a local lab teacher that comes and does labs at home (called labrats or something) for really cheap. dissections and the like - so that plus home-based labs should fit the bill.

 

thank you so much for your thoughts, encouragement and setting me straight regarding labs at home. :)

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In our state, the U's assume you're doing full hands on labs with each and every Science, that you call "Lab Science"  You don't get extra credits, but you get to call it "Lab Science" and you have to do two Lab Sciences and one other Science (usually Physics) to apply to a U.  Both our research and state U's have the same requirements.  Our state also doesn't count any homeschool Lab Science as Lab Science since they apparently believe you can't dissect a fish at home...so homeschoolers here use SAT Subject tests or AP Subjects tests to "test out of" those two Lab Science requirements. 

 

It's a mess.

 

BUT, under no circumstances do you get extra credits for the lab.  Or less credits for a regular Science without a lab.  

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Our state also doesn't count any homeschool Lab Science as Lab Science since they apparently believe you can't dissect a fish at home...so homeschoolers here use SAT Subject tests or AP Subjects tests to "test out of" those two Lab Science requirements. 

 

It's a mess.

 

BUT, under no circumstances do you get extra credits for the lab.  Or less credits for a regular Science without a lab.  

 

thanks for weighing in. i sure thought i recalled that about california. ;-) we do plan to sat II and AP out of them all.

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It's a moot point because colleges routinely and without question *accept* homeschool lab sciences, not the reverse. ;)

 

I've not heard of any universities NOT accepting homeschool labs as a matter of course, with ONE exception. The only university I've heard of that is "sticky" about homeschool science labs is ASU, which is a bit snotty about wanting to see you used "real" equipment list for the labs (beakers, test tubes, and  graduated cylinders -- rather than glass cups, jars, and measuring cups),  and ASU requires homeschoolers to fill out extra paperwork about the labs for each science course. An extra pain, but doable.

 

 

 

 

NOT IN CALIFORNIA

 

public Colleges do not EVER accept homeschool labs.  The students absolutely must "test out" using SAT Subject tests or AP exam

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NOT IN CALIFORNIA

 

public Colleges do not EVER accept homeschool labs.  The students absolutely must "test out" using SAT Subject tests or AP exam

 

edited:

 

After reading your posts below, thanks so much, Calming Tea, for taking the time to explain the difficult beaurocracy that homeschoolers in CA have to go through for high school in order to be eligible for CA colleges. BEST of luck to all! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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NOT IN CALIFORNIA

 

public Colleges do not EVER accept homeschool labs.  The students absolutely must "test out" using SAT Subject tests or AP exam

 

How do you "test out" of a lab science doing an SAT or AP exam.  Neither have a lab component.

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How do you "test out" of a lab science doing an SAT or AP exam.  Neither have a lab component.

 

I don't live in Ca.  But I had the same question when it's been brought up.  This is what I found.  (and hopefully CA people can share better info).

It's a thing with the U of California and Cal State systems. They have this requirement for admissions that your high school courses meet this thing called the A-G requirements.Among those requirements are lab sciences.  Courses and some schools get their ag approval.  But homeschoolers and other alternative education where courses aren't a-g approved can use standardized tests to show they learned things. 

 

So it's not testing out of the course (in terms of college credit), but it's using a standardized test to show you met the ag requirement for admissions when the course you did at home was not "ag approved".

 

That's background that I learned.

 

I know the real question is: Why does their system permit a test that has nothing to do with lab to count in the lab requirement of a-g?  who knows?  but it is what it is. 

 

They take the test in lieu of finding a way to take a stamp of a-g approval course. I have guesses why the system allows it. It's because deep down, it's not really about having lab experience. It's about showing your learn some material before college that would be good enough to meet the course approval. I guess it's about making it easy and uniform across the system for admissions to check that's it ok.    But I don't know.  Those are guesses on my part. and I reserve the right to be wrong about the rationale.

 

That's why you'll hear from homeschoolers in california that they will forget those hoops and do dual enrollment through community college to ease the path to the public college and university system.  And why expensive online courses without a-g stamp of approval make no sense to them.  (doesn't to me either, but that's not the issue)

 

every time I read about california requirements, I am thankful that I don't live there.  hugs to those of you going through the hoops.

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How do you "test out" of a lab science doing an SAT or AP exam.  Neither have a lab component.

I don't make their stupid rules.  It doesn't matter.  If you have taken the test, you receive A-G credit which would always include the lab component, but you may not have necessarily taken the lab.  I know many homeschoolers who have brilliant kids that got into UCLA, Berekeley, ETC without ever touching a beaker or scalpel, because they tested out of all of their A-G requirements.

 

You should still have Lab Science on your transcript...it can't hurt if you really did the labs at home.  

 

BUT to fulfill A-G Lab Science requirements, as a homeschooler, the only way to do that is to test out.  They accept that.

 

(Unless you are a Public Charter homeschooler in which you can take an approved co-op class, and then that goes under the Umbrella of your charter school, which has "master teachers" assigned to your student who supposedly meet with them, and through the Charter's A-G, your lab counts (could be the SAME EXACT co-op class I take as a private homeschooler but mine is not accepted and theirs is.) 

Edited by Calming Tea
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I don't live in Ca.  But I had the same question when it's been brought up.  This is what I found.  (and hopefully CA people can share better info).

It's a thing with the U of California and Cal State systems. They have this requirement for admissions that your high school courses meet this thing called the A-G requirements.Among those requirements are lab sciences.  Courses and some schools get their ag approval.  But homeschoolers and other alternative education where courses aren't a-g approved can use standardized tests to show they learned things. 

 

So it's not testing out of the course (in terms of college credit), but it's using a standardized test to show you met the ag requirement for admissions when the course you did at home was not "ag approved".

 

That's background that I learned.

 

I know the real question is: Why does their system permit a test that has nothing to do with lab to count in the lab requirement of a-g?  who knows?  but it is what it is. 

 

They take the test in lieu of finding a way to take a stamp of a-g approval course. I have guesses why the system allows it. It's because deep down, it's not really about having lab experience. It's about showing your learn some material before college that would be good enough to meet the course approval. I guess it's about making it easy and uniform across the system for admissions to check that's it ok.    But I don't know.  Those are guesses on my part. and I reserve the right to be wrong about the rationale.

 

That's why you'll hear from homeschoolers in california that they will forget those hoops and do dual enrollment through community college to ease the path to the public college and university system.  And why expensive online courses without a-g stamp of approval make no sense to them.  (doesn't to me either, but that's not the issue)

 

every time I read about california requirements, I am thankful that I don't live there.  hugs to those of you going through the hoops.

You've been paying attention.  This is very accurate.

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CBollin summed it up nicely. I would just add that many online courses are now A-G approved even for private homeschoolers.  If they can send an accredited transcript, they are probably A-G approved for private homeschoolers. 

 

If the course itself is A-G approved, but they can't send an accredited transcript, it's not considered a "school" and then only Public Charter Homeschoolers can use it, as it would actually be listed under their school's course name.

 

THAT SAID, there are NO and according to the UC person I spoke with will NEVER be an approved online lab course.  If you are doing your labs at home without an A-G approved teacher/course or charter school, your labs do not count, even if they were guided and graded by an otherwise A-G approved online teacher.  There are A-G approved online courses for CHarter school kids but they have to do their labs at an A-G approved "Lab Center" such as an A-G approved co-op, or at a place like Extreme Learning Academy.  So even the charter kids have to go through extra hoops for the Lab component.  Many of them just choose to do a community college course or test out instead.

 

Again, apparently the UC's assume people cannot dissect a fish at home. 

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I don't live in Ca. But I had the same question when it's been brought up. This is what I found. (and hopefully CA people can share better info).

It's a thing with the U of California and Cal State systems. They have this requirement for admissions that your high school courses meet this thing called the A-G requirements.Among those requirements are lab sciences. Courses and some schools get their ag approval. But homeschoolers and other alternative education where courses aren't a-g approved can use standardized tests to show they learned things.

 

So it's not testing out of the course (in terms of college credit), but it's using a standardized test to show you met the ag requirement for admissions when the course you did at home was not "ag approved".

 

That's background that I learned.

 

I know the real question is: Why does their system permit a test that has nothing to do with lab to count in the lab requirement of a-g? who knows? but it is what it is.

 

They take the test in lieu of finding a way to take a stamp of a-g approval course. I have guesses why the system allows it. It's because deep down, it's not really about having lab experience. It's about showing your learn some material before college that would be good enough to meet the course approval. I guess it's about making it easy and uniform across the system for admissions to check that's it ok. But I don't know. Those are guesses on my part. and I reserve the right to be wrong about the rationale.

 

That's why you'll hear from homeschoolers in california that they will forget those hoops and do dual enrollment through community college to ease the path to the public college and university system. And why expensive online courses without a-g stamp of approval make no sense to them. (doesn't to me either, but that's not the issue)

 

every time I read about california requirements, I am thankful that I don't live there. hugs to those of you going through the hoops.

Because if they didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t accept the test, they would basically not accept homeschool course at all. So in a way I think they are being nice. I also understand that for a big state, they want to at least control the minimum standard, which is what a through g requirements do.

 

In response to state requirements, I am seeing A through G labs pop up all over the state, some sponsored by homeschool charters. So there is a way for homeschoolers to take an approved lab in many areas without having to test out.

Edited by Roadrunner
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No thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not. Private Homeschoolers cannot count A-G labs on their transcript unless theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re with a charter school I actually called the UCs and verified this. You would THINK they could, but, they canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t.

Ha! I thought if itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a through g approved lab, it would work. ThatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s most definitely bizarre. Good to know though.

I also just recently realized that event though AOPS is a through g approved, it doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t count unless you are with some sort of a school.

 

But UCs arenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t asking for test for every subject. DonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t they just ask for two subject tests and not necessarily in science as part of Ă¢â‚¬Å“exemption by examinationĂ¢â‚¬ rule?

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No thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not. Private Homeschoolers cannot count A-G labs on their transcript unless theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re with a charter school I actually called the UCs and verified this. You would THINK they could, but, they canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t.

 

This is true but it is worth noting that several of the UC schools are becoming more holistic and moving away from being as strict with the a-g requirements. My son applied to a few UC schools last year with hardly any a-g courses and was accepted to UCLA and UC Irvine. His transcript was full of homeschool courses including science courses with labs done at home. And he didn't take any AP or SAT subject tests to fulfill the requirements. He did have a strong ACT score and very strong essays. 

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Ha! I thought if itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a through g approved lab, it would work. ThatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s most definitely bizarre. Good to know though.

I also just recently realized that event though AOPS is a through g approved, it doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t count unless you are with some sort of a school.

 

But UCs arenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t asking for test for every subject. DonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t they just ask for two subject tests and not necessarily in science as part of Ă¢â‚¬Å“exemption by examinationĂ¢â‚¬ rule?

AOPS does count if you're taking the online class because they can issue a transcript and it's accredited.  So that counts.  In that case AOPS is a tiny little math school...

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Ha! I thought if itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a through g approved lab, it would work. ThatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s most definitely bizarre. Good to know though.

I also just recently realized that event though AOPS is a through g approved, it doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t count unless you are with some sort of a school.

 

But UCs arenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t asking for test for every subject. DonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t they just ask for two subject tests and not necessarily in science as part of Ă¢â‚¬Å“exemption by examinationĂ¢â‚¬ rule?

If you wanted to guarantee UC admission (not the one you want, but just admission to the system), you'd have to take a total of 12 tests over the course of your high school career.  There is no test for Fine Arts and they do not accept online fine arts classes even through a charter so you have to take a community college course for that.  

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This is true but it is worth noting that several of the UC schools are becoming more holistic and moving away from being as strict with the a-g requirements. My son applied to a few UC schools last year with hardly any a-g courses and was accepted to UCLA and UC Irvine. His transcript was full of homeschool courses including science courses with labs done at home. And he didn't take any AP or SAT subject tests to fulfill the requirements. He did have a strong ACT score and very strong essays. 

 

 

This is true!  They really aren't in the business of turning away excellent students for no reason.  However, it's a bit of a gamble when your student is in 9th or 10th grade and you really don't know how well they'll test on their SAT's.  At least, I felt it was.  

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If you wanted to guarantee UC admission (not the one you want, but just admission to the system), you'd have to take a total of 12 tests over the course of your high school career.  There is no test for Fine Arts and they do not accept online fine arts classes even through a charter so you have to take a community college course for that.  

I don't think that's technically true. 

They are saying to take SAT + 2 subject tests, not validate every course.

 

"To be considered, you must take either the ACT with Writing or the SAT, as well as two SAT Subject Tests."

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/requirements/examination/index.html

 

Now one can argue to be competitive at UC, one needs more, but they can't get you on the technicality if you don't supply more. Or am I reading this wrong? 

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I don't think that's technically true. 

They are saying to take SAT + 2 subject tests, not validate every course.

 

"To be considered, you must take either the ACT with Writing or the SAT, as well as two SAT Subject Tests."

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/requirements/examination/index.html

 

Now one can argue to be competitive at UC, one needs more, but they can't get you on the technicality if you don't supply more. Or am I reading this wrong?

 

What you are quoting is the "Admission by Examination" procedure which does not "guarantee" admission in the same way that good grades in all the approved A-G courses does.  

 

They are two different procedures.  One is called "Fulfilling A-G requirements" and the other is called "Admission by Examination" and it is considered an exception.

 

And if you do that math, Admission by Examination is no small stuff.  You'd have to get very, very high scores on all 3 tests, and they should be related to your major if possible.  So you can't choose a test you think is easy, just to get the score (there is a chart where they show what points on the test equal a "UC Score" and then that UC Score is added up)/..you really should be taking tests related to your major.

 

And, beyond that, my  friend who has raised 6 kids four of which so far attend UC using the A-G method, didn't do A-G with one of her kids who tested very well, counting on the Admission by Examination route, and they removed that route for a few years.  That route is an "extra" and they could lift it at any time.  Luckily her daughter was admitted as one of those fringe holistic cases, since she almost literally got a Perfect score on her SAT's etc.

Edited by Calming Tea
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So why is it that CA public universities are so strict on homeschooler applicants compared to the rest of America? Was there an event that triggered this crack down?

 

Speaking as an East Coaster, California just thinks they're special.  :tongue_smilie:  The government does a lot of things differently, not just in the world of education. For example, there are a lot of product regulations that mean companies have to manufacture to California standards to sell there.

 

They're also just large enough that they can get away with it - large enough to have a bigger bureaucracy, to ask textbook companies to make special editions, to convince auto manufacturers to make special emissions packages for cars, etc. etc. So they do their own thing because they can. There are other states that are large enough as well... like Texas. But Texas tends to go with less regulation overall as a more conservative state, while California tends to go with more, as a more liberal state. If, say, Maryland, a similarly liberal state, thought they could get away with being more regulatory about certain things, they probably would.

 

In other words, this isn't about a crackdown on homeschoolers. It's just about California doing things however they like, which they tend to do. Which... is good for them.

Edited by Farrar
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So why is it that CA public universities are so strict on homeschooler applicants compared to the rest of America? Was there an event that triggered this crack down?

 

ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s really not about homeschoolers. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s for UC and CSU system to define a minimum standard for courses.

 

And if you are out of state, those a through g requirements donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even apply to you.

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ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s really not about homeschoolers. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s for UC and CSU system to define a minimum standard for courses.

 

And if you are out of state, those a through g requirements donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even apply to you.

I will exchange my state university system any day for the a-g or whatever you people have to go through. They do it because they can. An excellent public higher education system is the exception in this country.
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ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s really not about homeschoolers. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s for UC and CSU system to define a minimum standard for courses.

 

And if you are out of state, those a through g requirements donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even apply to you.

 

I disagree. I think it was very much to target private schools and homeschoolers and control from the top-down.  To increase bureaucracy, hire more people etc.  Just like everything in CA they think more government oversight is the answer to everything.  More cost, more taxes, etc.

 

Because, if you look at some of the courses in schools that have gotten A-G approval, some are a total joke.   It used to be that this was the purpose of the SAT- that if the high schools were doing things differently, at least there was one test, along with grades, that would show the colleges how students were likely to perform in college. 

 

I guess it's true that California is a huge, huge state.  And that it is highly populated.  So, having some standards may be beneficial and helpful.  But this kind of bureaucracy is what this state is famous for.  Given any "problem", California will find the most expensive, intrusive and controlling means of "solving" the "problem" possible.

Edited by Calming Tea
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ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s really not about homeschoolers. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s for UC and CSU system to define a minimum standard for courses.

 

And if you are out of state, those a through g requirements donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even apply to you.

And anyway this post proves the point that it is about top-down control of private schools and homeschoolers!  Obviously they have found a way to figure out which students can handle UC/CSU coursework in some other way, otherwise how would they admit so many many thousands of students from out of state and all over the world?  They KNOW HOW to figure out which students are capable of doing the work WITHOUT the A-G thing.

 

It's 100% about control IMO

Edited by Calming Tea
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You can also check for any lab intensives available in your area/state for much less than WTMA's offer. Depending on how close it is, room and board for one or two nights might even the scale, but it's two days and you're finished; not an extra day per week all year.

 

Another option is to check out a local co-op for a Bio-labs only class. We have one within 30 min. that's only $ 20/mth.

 

Also, I think there are some DVDs walking you through the lab report and labs which could be used, too.

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And anyway this post proves the point that it is about top-down control of private schools and homeschoolers! Obviously they have found a way to figure out which students can handle UC/CSU coursework in some other way, otherwise how would they admit so many many thousands of students from out of state and all over the world? They KNOW HOW to figure out which students are capable of doing the work WITHOUT the A-G thing.

 

It's 100% about control IMO

Other states have their own standards. I am not so sure why itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s surprising that state universities would want to tie into the state high school system. UCs and CSUs are public and therefore designed to take mostly CA students, so to have some quality control makes sense.

I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think approving private schools for a through g is a problem. I know there have been some issues with some texts (was it BJU?), but then again, I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t disagree with them there..

 

Having said all this, I do think that we the homeschoolers are being squeezed by the system that really wasnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t designed with us in mind. But again, for competitive UCs test taking is a must for homeschool or public school kids, so maybe we donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t lose as much as we think. And free community college for DE with TAG is another plus for us in CA. And given the reports by homeschoolers successfully entering state schools, maybe they are bing more flexible than we think.

 

I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s harder for kids with not very good stats.

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Other states have their own standards. I am not so sure why itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s surprising that state universities would want to tie into the state high school system. UCs and CSUs are public and therefore designed to take mostly CA students, so to have some quality control makes sense.

I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think approving private schools for a through g is a problem. I know there have been some issues with some texts (was it BJU?), but then again, I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t disagree with them there..

 

Having said all this, I do think that we the homeschoolers are being squeezed by the system that really wasnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t designed with us in mind. But again, for competitive UCs test taking is a must for homeschool or public school kids, so maybe we donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t lose as much as we think. And free community college for DE with TAG is another plus for us in CA. And given the reports by homeschoolers successfully entering state schools, maybe they are bing more flexible than we think.

 

I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s harder for kids with not very good stats.

I would say I hate the system, but I love the community colleges. 

 

Of course I'd rather have my income tax back.  With about two years of that I could pay for all four years of both kids of any private school they'd rather go to.  And then I wouldn't care how inexpensive or expensive the CCs or UCs are and just say SIONARA to the whole public system.

 

But give the taxes are taken away, we're desperately trying to save for retirement and stay in our very high income, high property tax, high COL area so we can be near our kids and church....

 

I LOVE the community colleges.  The cost is not free here because generally speaking DE kids can't get any classes and have to graduate so they can have the classes they need...but at 46.00 per credit it's an amazing option.  Thank God.

 

 I still disagree that they need this level of control.  As I said, UC's out of state percentage is 20%. That is tens of thousands of students who somehow are deemed worthy without the control of the A-G approval.  Obviously they can do whatever they're doing with those students, with ours.  

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Back to the topic at hand..

 

 

 

We have decided to enroll in WTMA Biology w/ no lab. We love Mrs. Upperman, and although they've changed texts, they assure me it is still up to SAT II standards - so we'll plan to take SAT II at end of course. Will supplement with at-home labs as needed. 

 

Thanks for everyone's insight!
 

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I disagree. I think it was very much to target private schools and homeschoolers and control from the top-down.  

 

 

I guess it's true that California is a huge, huge state.  And that it is highly populated.  So, having some standards may be beneficial and helpful.  But this kind of bureaucracy is what this state is famous for.  Given any "problem", California will find the most expensive, intrusive and controlling means of "solving" the "problem" possible.

 

Public high schools must also get their courses a-g approved.  

 

But I do agree that this is weirdly controlling.  I mean, the UC system has a database of individual courses offered by what? thousands of California public and private high schools?  And now online classes?  

Edited by daijobu
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Speaking as an East Coaster, California just thinks they're special.  :tongue_smilie:  The government does a lot of things differently, not just in the world of education. For example, there are a lot of product regulations that mean companies have to manufacture to California standards to sell there.

 

They're also just large enough that they can get away with it - large enough to have a bigger bureaucracy, to ask textbook companies to make special editions, to convince auto manufacturers to make special emissions packages for cars, etc. etc. So they do their own thing because they can. 

 

Don't forget, Californians also have special milk.

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I wondered what sort of hoops does a school go through to get a given class a-g approval.  Can there be more oversight than say, the approval the College Board gives in approving an AP syllabus?

 

And here is how to do it:

 

"The A-G CMP is open annually for the "a-g" course submission period from February 1 - September 15. New courses may only be submitted to UC for "a-g" review during this time. Courses are approved beginning with the academic year corresponding to the submission period the course was approved.

 

Institutions are encouraged to submit their new courses early to ensure that their courses are "a-g" approved prior to the start of their school year and the opening of the UC application in August.

 

"All new course submissions are placed in a queue in the order received and reviewed by one of our articulation analysts. To provide a more objective review of the course content, UC conducts Ă¢â‚¬Å“blindĂ¢â‚¬ reads of all new courses, where the name of the institution submitting the course is hidden from our analysts. A-G approval is based on the course demonstrating compliance with the "a-g" subject area course criteria established by UC faculty.

 

Generally, new courses are reviewed within two to four weeks of submission. However, depending on the time of year and volume of submissions received, it may take longer. When a course completes the review process, an email notification with the results of the course review is sent to the course's author and institution's course list manager. The results of a course review, in addition to the analyst's comments, are also available in the My Courses section on the A-G CMP.

 

"Before beginning the Ă¢â‚¬Å“a-gĂ¢â‚¬ course development and submission process, review the subject area course criteria to ensure that the curricular focus of the course meets the requirements and guidelines of its respective subject area. The course criteria for the seven Ă¢â‚¬Å“a-gĂ¢â‚¬ subject areas was developed by the Board of Admissions and Relations with Schools (BOARS), a committee of the University's Academic Senate that includes faculty representatives from each UC campus.

 

Become familiar with all aspects of the Ă¢â‚¬Å“a-gĂ¢â‚¬ subject area course criteria. Look out for requirements specific to each subject area. Some subject areas require courses to include appropriate pre- or co-requisite work, substantial reading and writing, laboratory activities and relevant information addressing how students are developing and using critical thinking and habits of mind skills. A-G approval is based on the course demonstrating compliance with the "a-g" subject area course criteria.

 

"Submitted course descriptions should emphasize the core knowledge and skills students are expected to learn, including concepts, theory and texts. Provide adequate detail about the content, outlining and describing major themes, topics and sub-topics. There should be clear evidence of the level of rigor of the course and the development of essential critical thinking skills.

 

Explanation of key assignments should include the intent and significance of each, in addition to a general description.

 

For courses that integrate academic and career-technical content, provide a detailed description of the academic and technical content in your course submission. Discuss how the career-technical content is used as a strategy to deepen understanding of theoretical concepts and brings the curriculum to life through real-world applications.

 

"All sections of your course submission should be expository in nature. Bulleted lists of topics and assignments do not provide our analysts adequate insight into the content, intent and rigor of the curriculum. UC expects to see information that shows specific, detailed evidence of the academically challenging content and use of essential skills and habits of mind."

 

and finally here's a Quick Start Guide.  

 

 

 

 

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