Play armchair psychologist - Is psychopathy misdiagnosed as autism?

[Katy]

Hopefully it's not too soon to post this.  Genuinely not trying to start any fires, just want to bounce this idea off those with more knowledge about the topic than me.  We've talked about the controversy over the link between mass shootings and autism before, as well as controversies over Gavin De Becker's crime statistics regarding autism. Yet most kids on the spectrum would never hurt others. So please play psychologist with me - is it possible that the "autistic" mass shooters of recent decades were never on the spectrum at all, but were misdiagnosed for political, funding, or treatment reasons?

 

As a family we've been asked several times to take a foster child who was diagnosed autistic but DHS questioned the diagnosis- they thought delays were due to neglect and empathy issues were due to abuse.  All of which makes me wonder how many times past mass shooters publicly identified has autistic may have been misdiagnosed and actually had attachment disorders or other conditions that led to adult psychopathy.

 

It is not considered ethical to diagnose a child with psychopathy.  Some children seem to be born like this, some outgrow it, and some are abused into it.  There is no way to reliably treat it, but there is plenty of funding and treatment for autism.  Here's a few articles on children showing signs of psychopathy for context:

 

Here's an article on child psychopaths from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/

 

Business Insider - Why You Can't Label a Child a Psychopath: http://www.businessinsider.com/children-show-warning-signs-of-becoming-psychopaths-2017-10

 

Telegraph - Signs in a Child: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/14/could-child-psychopath-six-signs-watch/

 

So, those who know more about the spectrum than me...  What do you think? 

 

[Rosie_0801]

As far as I can tell as someone not qualified to administer psychological testing, some of the tests for autism could just as easily be screening tests for cluster B disorders.

[Tanaqui]

Oh my god not this again.

How many times do we hear that public mass shooters "must have been autistic" and then a careful study of the evidence shows that no, they never had a diagnosis of autism and nobody ever suspected it at all because they actually didn't act autistic at all? (Answer: Gee, just about every time.)

 

And yet, every shooting, we hear this same argument again and again and again.

[maize]

Oh my god not this again.

 

How many times do we hear that public mass shooters "must have been autistic" and then a careful study of the evidence shows that no, they never had a diagnosis of autism and nobody ever suspected it at all because they actually didn't act autistic at all? (Answer: Gee, just about every time.)

 

And yet, every shooting, we hear this same argument again and again and again.

I think OP is saying what if those who did have an autism diagnosis (and some have) weren't really on the spectrum but actually had some other issue masquerading as/being misdiagnosed as autism?

[Katy]

Oh my god not this again.

How many times do we hear that public mass shooters "must have been autistic" and then a careful study of the evidence shows that no, they never had a diagnosis of autism and nobody ever suspected it at all because they actually didn't act autistic at all? (Answer: Gee, just about every time.)

 

And yet, every shooting, we hear this same argument again and again and again.

 

Really?  Link?  All I've seen is the opposite.

[UnionJack]

Curious about the Gavin de Becker crime statistics controversy.... I hadn’t heard about that and did a quick search.... would you mind posting a link?

[Lecka]

No. They are distinct. There are other things a child might get diagnosed with, that are not autism. Autism isn’t a default diagnosis that way.

 

This is for kids who have a definite, clear diagnosis of autism.

 

I don’t think that’s the same as saying someone on the autism spectrum couldn’t commit a crime, though. I don’t think it’s realistic to say nobody who has autism does bad things.

 

However it’s not okay to say people who have autism are somehow predisposed to do bad things.

 

And for the diagnoses I have in mind that might be ones kids could get, it would also not be okay to assume a child with that diagnosis would be more likely to commit a crime.

 

But, no. Nobody is seeing kids they think have serious problems, but don’t have traits on the autism spectrum as the best fit for them, and diagnosing them with autism. At least — I don’t think so and have never seen anything like this.

[maize]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998

 

Possibly relevant link

[Crimson Wife]

Autism used to be called "infantile schizophrenia" so I would not be surprised if some children who are labeled as "autism" actually have budding schizophrenia. 32% of mass murderers have schizophrenia or "delusional disorder" (source).

 

My dad was trying to claim recently that his schizophrenic cousin actually had autism. His cousin heard voices- that's a symptom of schizophrenia, not autism.

[Katy]

Curious about the Gavin de Becker crime statistics controversy.... I hadn’t heard about that and did a quick search.... would you mind posting a link?

 

Gavin de Becker wrote a couple of bestselling books about protecting yourself and your child from crime:

 

The Gift of Fear

and

Protecting the Gift

 

The easiest way to learn about the controversies is to go to his books on Amazon and read the bad reviews - they almost universally decry the crime statistics regarding young males on the autism spectrum, even though they come directly from FBI statistics.

[UnionJack]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998

 

Possibly relevant link

Thank you! I found a couple studies but not by de Becker... I really loved the couple books of his I read so was more interested in what it was he was saying than the topic itself (if that makes sense!).

[UnionJack]

Gavin de Becker wrote a couple of bestselling books about protecting yourself and your child from crime:

 

The Gift of Fear

and

Protecting the Gift

 

The easiest way to learn about the controversies is to go to his books on Amazon and read the bad reviews - they almost universally decry the crime statistics regarding young males on the autism spectrum, even though they come directly from FBI statistics.

Thanks!! I own those books and must’ve totally forgotten those pieces. :-)

I love both of those books....I found the stories terrifying, but his point to “trust your gut†so freeing.

[nixpix5]

Autism diagnosis is often a catch all. Many kids get misdiagnosed and have FAS or other disorders due to drug use or brain damage utero. Especially when we talk about a child who was adopted we may not have any idea as to how his 9 months in the womb was spent. Then we are battling abandonment issues, adoption issues in general...it is just really hard to tease out autism in the situation of this particular shooter. His facial traits and overall affect appearance points to FAS in my opinion.

[Katy]

I'm a little stuck on a small piece of your post - the idea that 'lack of empathy' is a spectrum quality.

 

Delays or deficits in theory of mind are very common, but I have seen no evidence that spectrum kids have any lack of empathy.  ...and I have seen some evidence that **once they understand what another person is feeling* that many spectrum kids are **more** empathetic that NT kids...  the disconnect can be in helping them learn to read other people's cues rather than assuming what they'd feel is what the other person is feeling.

 

I cannot imagine it would take enormous expertise to recognize the difference between psychopathic qualities and ASD.   Are diagnoses really happening without a thorough evaluation process?   Based on simplistic checklists?   (I know that isn't how the professionals here are doing things!)

 

I actually agree with you, the statements about empathy were from DHS staff, not me.

[Crimson Wife]

 I cannot imagine it would take enormous expertise to recognize the difference between psychopathic qualities and ASD.   Are diagnoses really happening without a thorough evaluation process?   Based on simplistic checklists?   (I know that isn't how the professionals here are doing things!)

 

I'm on a FB group for parents whose kids have delays and the question was asked for how long an autism evaluation appointment was. I was absolutely appalled by the number of moms who said theirs had been only 45-60 minutes. My daughter's was a 1 hour parent intake interview and then a 4 hour observation of her at the 2nd appointment.

[Lecka]

I have never seen kids I think are misdiagnosed. It is a behavioral diagnosis though and I definitely think a child could have FAS and autism.

 

I am not aware of there being any differential diagnosis where a child who has behavior that is on the autism spectrum but has another condition instead, unless it’s a genetic disorder, and then ime those kids can also have autism.

[Katy]

I'm on a FB group for parents whose kids have delays and the question was asked for how long an autism evaluation appointment was. I was absolutely appalled by the number of moms who said theirs had been only 45-60 minutes. My daughter's was a 1 hour parent intake interview and then a 4 hour observation of her at the 2nd appointment.

 

Wow, that's interesting.  Is the difference whether the evaluation was conducted by someone hired by the school district or other education agency, or do you think it was something else (public, private, regional differences)?

[Lecka]

On the FAS thing, my understanding is it’s possible to be diagnosed with both Down Syndrome and autism, so I don’t see why FAS would be different.

[Crimson Wife]

Wow, that's interesting.  Is the difference whether the evaluation was conducted by someone hired by the school district or other education agency, or do you think it was something else (public, private, regional differences)?

 

Not sure. It's hard to tell via brief FB comments what the poster's situation is. I just was dismayed that so many of the moms were getting brief evaluations rather than the lengthy ones my daughter did.

 

[PeterPan]

If you google sociopathy plus autism, you'll find there's a *profile*. If the dc is gifted (not average IQ, not ID) *and* has autism *and* presents with ODD, the prison stats, the violence stats, the aggression stats, etc. are wicked, wicked high. 

 

 

Niacin Helps Relieve ODD, ADHD, & Bipolar Disorder | WeHaveKids  Here's a lady who's experience is similar to ours.

Edited February 16, 2018 by PeterPan

[AimeeM]

I'm a little stuck on a small piece of your post - the idea that 'lack of empathy' is a spectrum quality.

 

Delays or deficits in theory of mind are very common, but I have seen no evidence that spectrum kids have any lack of empathy.  ...and I have seen some evidence that **once they understand what another person is feeling* that many spectrum kids are **more** empathetic that NT kids...  the disconnect can be in helping them learn to read other people's cues rather than assuming what they'd feel is what the other person is feeling.

 

I cannot imagine it would take enormous expertise to recognize the difference between psychopathic qualities and ASD.   Are diagnoses really happening without a thorough evaluation process?   Based on simplistic checklists?   (I know that isn't how the professionals here are doing things!)

 

I think the evaluation process differs a lot based on not only what state you are in, but also what is required from the people you wish to present the evaluation to. 

 

Two of our three kids are autistic (not high functioning; one requires Level 2 supports across the board, and the other requires Levels 2 and 3 supports). I belong to a number of online groups for moms with ASD kids, and I've noticed that the evaluation process differs greatly, and sometimes even within the same city. 

If all you're after is an IEP, you can get a "school diagnosis" -- which is not considered a medical dx that would qualify a kiddo for insurance-covered private therapies and interventions, but would be enough to qualify them for an IEP and/or school-based services.

Or you can go through the hospital system's autism clinic -- and that will give a medical dx of autism, but those have loooong waitlists, with children 3 and under getting "dibs" on appointments (because they are linked to our city's Early Intervention services, so it makes sense).

Or you can hire a private child psychologist or developmental pediatrician to do the evaluation (which is what we did, allowing for -- in our opinion -- a more thorough, less rushed, and more timely evaluation process).

 

And I have seen moms who seemed to have only one evaluation appointment -- a couple hours of forms to fill out and a bit of time spent with the evaluator observing the child. In our case, it was several appointments, most of which were several hours long, and included interviewing not only us, but also our Early Intervention worker, and significant time spent with the child -- observing the child, several tests that involved interaction with the evaluator, etc. 

 

And then I know moms who say their kid is autistic, because a Speech Therapist or Occupational Therapist working with the child suggested it.

 

 

With that said, the indications and typical qualifications for psychopathy (or schizophrenia) had no part in our ASD evals. The behaviors that qualify psychopathy or schizophrenia were not considered qualifiers for ASD, so I'm not sure where the OP is going with this. 

 

And I agree with you -- none of the sincerely (medically dx'd) autistic kids I know lack empathy, once they understand emotions. Heck, even before they understand emotions, they still do not lack empathy -- they just tend to show compassion in a way that isn't considered typical. 

 

Before DS5 was verbal (about four years old), though, he seemed to miss that link to "show" empathy in a socially appropriate manner. If his brother got hurt or was upset, DS5 would attack the thing that hurt him or upset him; while it would have been more socially appropriate to hug his brother. He understood his brother was upset, but his way of showing compassion was to "take care of" the thing that caused the upset. Now he will pat his brother and inquire, verbally, as to what upset him -- but he is still likely to yell at me to "be nice at the brudder" if, for example, his brother is upset because I wouldn't buy him another $20 worth of coins on his game, lol.

Edited February 16, 2018 by AimeeM

[Daria]

Autism diagnosis is often a catch all. Many kids get misdiagnosed and have FAS or other disorders due to drug use or brain damage utero. Especially when we talk about a child who was adopted we may not have any idea as to how his 9 months in the womb was spent. Then we are battling abandonment issues, adoption issues in general...it is just really hard to tease out autism in the situation of this particular shooter. His facial traits and overall affect appearance points to FAS in my opinion.

 

Autism, and other disabilities like ADHD, or ID, or learning disabilities, are disabilities that are diagnosed according to symptoms.  If someone has the symptoms of autism, regardless of the cause, then they're autistic.

 

FAS, or genetic syndromes, or brain damage are terms that refer to how a disability was acquired, or where it came from.  While most cases of autism occur without an identified cause, you can absolutely have autism with FAS as a factor, or autism with a genetic disorder as a factor.  

[AimeeM]

Wow, that's interesting.  Is the difference whether the evaluation was conducted by someone hired by the school district or other education agency, or do you think it was something else (public, private, regional differences)?

 

Even within my relatively small city, there are several routes one can take for an evaluation and dx; they range from educational dx (given by the school; I'm assuming by their staff, and is not considered a medical dx, which is needed for certain state services and medical insurance to pick up therapies) when an IEP is the goal; to the city's autism clinic, which is through the city's hospital system; to hiring a private child psych or developmental specialists. The last two options are the only that qualify as a medical dx, but all are considered valid.

 

But the evaluation process for each is very, very different. We went private and, like another poster conveyed, our evaluation process was a series of several appointments, most of which were several hours long. I know people, however, that went other routes which consisted of comparatively short observation times, different tests administered, etc.

Edited February 16, 2018 by AimeeM

[TravelingChris]

The difficulty is that some of the same issues arise in autism as in conduct disorder, callous and unemotional.  Mainly the unemotional parts and not wanting to look at people.  But autistic people do not get pleasure from hurting others and aren't prone to planned out violence.  Also the conduct disorder, callous and unemotional kids have tendencies towards impulsiveness and some other features similar to ADHD, however, again, ADHD people have no problems looking at people and also no pleasure from hurting others or any higher chance of violence that is planned.  (Both autistic and ADHD kids may lash out impulsively but that is very far removed from making plans to harm people or animals and then carrying those plans through).  

 

I completely understand the exasparation of parents of autistic kids or autistic people of the so-called linking of killers with autism.  I got really angry today at someone who in an article opined that maybe it is ADHD medicine that is making these killers when none of the killers so far have been on any ADHD medicine which do not have black box warnings about violence or suicide like the anti-depressants.  And in regards to that, I can only remember one killer (one of the Columbine ones) that was on an anti-depressant- compared to so many, many, many teens who have been on them and did not kill anybody.  

 

The issue with conduct disorder, callous and unemotional  (which will often turn into psychopathy in adulthood if nothing is done to prevent it) is that it is a new diagnosis that only came out in the latest DSM.  From reading the articles people have nicely posted about the psychopathic children- at least one of them the adoptive parent had said that autism was one of the useless diagnosis they received before finally getting to a specialist who diagnosed the conduct disorder, callous and unemotional and helped them find a treatment facility.

 

Our current legal and medical system is not set up to really deal with 5 year olds who are gleefully drawing pictures of killing their family and activily planning and carrying out attacks on family, school mates, teachers, pets, etc.  One of the articles said that the worse cases are the ones that come from normal families -not horrendous abuse.  Those kids have about 85% genetic or at least congenital causes of behavior and only 15% modulated by environment.  I really, really feel for anyone who has these children,  

[MrsMommy]

As the mother of a child with autism, this is very depressing to me. We may as well haul the term "refrigerator mother" back out while we're at it.

[TravelingChris]

As the mother of a child with autism, this is very depressing to me. We may as well haul the term "refrigerator mother" back out while we're at it.

 

 

I really feel for you.  I just worry that instead of actually dealing with the real problem- things may become harder for autistics or other non-violent mentally ill.

[jewellsmommy]

A psychiatrist explained to me that there is a fairly straight-forward path to a legitimate diagnosis of Anti-social personality disorder (a sociopath and a psychopath carry the same dx code).

 

If a child is identified as having ODD in early childhood and the behaviors intensify to include violence against animals and/or people along with other law-breaking behavior, then the diagnosis is changed to child-onset conduct disorder. Teenagers who begin to act out in the teen years  can be diagnosed with CD but generally have a good prognosis with intervention because there is usually an underlying cause. The children, however, who were identified in their younger years and continue to progress despite intervention do not. If these children hit adulthood with the same behaviors or worsening then they are considered to have Anti-Social PD. 

 

Many adults can live productive lives even labeled as sociopaths. How the hallmark behaviors are applied is what makes the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath.

 

This psychiatrist believed that personality is fairly well set by 14/15. Intervention before that age has the best shot of shifting that child's path. He held out very little hope beyond that (not that therapy should stop, just that it should shift focus and expectations.) 

 

I have seen a child take this path and at 14 still have no idea what remorse or empathy feels like. It is sad and scary for all involved. Sometimes people would single out individual behaviors of this person and claim that they looked like spectrum behaviors, but the total picture was very different. I can see where cherry picking certain behaviors could mislead some. Having continuity of care by one doctor who farmed out to various psychologists at different times throughout the child's life was most helpful. He was able to put all the pieces together and still see the big picture.

 

I could see how moving from one professional to another to another over many years could lead to incorrect diagnoses. I think this is the type of thing that can be a problem in the SS/foster care world.

 

ETA: this type of child (RAD is present for him) has a good grasp of what emotions "look like" and can mimic them well. Knowing when and where the an emotional response belongs is always what set him apart from spectrum-type disorders. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by jewellsmommy

[gardenmom5]

anything is possible, depends who is doing the diagnosing.

 

I have wondered if the boy who did the connecticut shooting had FAS (or something similar). - something which has specific physical traits that show up in the face/head-shape.

[Carrie12345]

As a parent of a child on the spectrum, this conversation obviously makes me uncomfortable.

 

That said, I am closely connected with a family who has a child they were told met the criteria for... let's just say something else, but they couldn't give that dx due to his age.  He was given an ASD dx.

 

I don't know whether his dx has been changed as a teenager or not, but those were the facts in his pre-teen years.  He does not live in the family home anymore for safety reasons.

[Carrie12345]

Wow!  

 

We had multiple appointments totaling many hours... and that was the *express* version.  If there had been complications, it would have been much more involved.   (This was with three different children and at two different providers - two ended up with an ASD diagnosis and one is in wait-and-see, with a referral to an OT for working on some of the areas of concern, there is definitely no rush to label unnecessarily in the providers we've seen!)

 

 

I can see how misdiagnoses  could easily happen with that little evaluation.   That's really disturbing.   ...both for the kids and families themselves who might not be getting the most useful information and tools and for what that could do to our already scant data sets... especially for older, high-functioning spectrum kids.  

 

Was there any geographic pattern to these limited evaluations?

 

Originally, my son was diagnosed in 20 minutes, at most. His pediatrician claimed to have much experience in autism spectrum disorders.  (Circa 2002) He listened to my observations, had ds hop on one foot, agreed he was on the spectrum, told me there wasn't really all that much that could be done, but he could offer me meds for different symptoms.  :glare:

 

We spent the next 6 months or so (on my own gut, the ped didn't advise) going back and forth to a developmental center within a children's hospital, doing a full eval with maybe 10 appointments and at least 6 types of specialists who worked together to come to their conclusion.  Still Aspergers, but with info and plans moving forward.  Not shrug and drug.

 

For whatever it's worth, this was in the state with the highest ASD rates.

[Lecka]

We had to drive 2 hours (maybe closer to 3 because it was on the far side of the city from us) after an 8-month waiting list. It was the only option at the time.

 

This was in a state with one of the lowest rates.

 

In that state, at least in my area, it was hard to get a diagnosis. The gut instinct would be “it couldn’t be autism.â€

 

Also — I can explain more about a 4-hour diagnosis as being high quality for some kids.

 

My son had very, very obvious signs and symptoms. There was no question.

 

The place we went was able to review his IEP (from pre-school) and observation forms filled out by his pre-school.

 

Then while we were only there 4 hours, for 3 of those hours (or maybe 2 1/2 hours) we were doubled up, my mom and I were in one room talking and answering questions, while through a window we could see my son in with another doctor.

 

So even though it was one day and we were there for 4 hours, it was more like 6-7 hours of contact.

 

On top of that, I had a very long phone intake interview! I remember it being over an hour?

 

They did this partly because it was a hardship for families driving in. My mom and I drove in the night before and stayed in a hotel, while my aunt and uncle drove into town to babysit my other kids, because my husband was deployed.

 

There’s no way we could have done multiple appointments.

 

It’s gotten better there, but it’s very frustrating to need services and be kept from them because of such a long waitlist.

 

But a 45-minute appointment and being offered medicine is horrible! I would be so disappointed.

 

Edit: another issue with my son was that he was very limited in what testing he could participate in, so there’s really not much more they could do with him at the time. At pre-school they were able to make observations of his skills for things where he wouldn’t do things in a testing situation, but that took weeks for him to begin to get comfortable there.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Lecka

[SporkUK]

I'm a sociologist, not a psychologist so thinking on scale...yes, misdiagnosis happen due to everyone involved being human & there are well-documented trends of particular diagnosis though whether autism fits into that on a large scale hasn't yet been shown. Both autistic and mentally ill people are both far more likely to be victims of violence than the perpetrators. I've seen no evidence that misdiagnosis or the rates of psychopathy are significantly higher in the US than in other countries with far lower rates of mass murder. 

 

The attitude of autism = psychopathy/lacking empathy perpetuates a lot of the violence against autistic people and those perceived to be autistic. Autism is co-morbid with a lot of other conditions so there are many of other variables that might be a better fit but the vast majority of violent people have no current diagnosis or history of mental ill health or autism. I think the effort put into linking mass murders and violence to autism or to mental ill health, even psychopathy or schizophrenia, is a desire to move the violence outside of normal society and ignoring how much of our social structures glorify and celebrate violent behaviours particularly in males. Almost all mass murders are committed by men, the vast majority of all violent crime is committed by boys and men, and yet it is very difficult both on an academic and popular culture level to discuss that because it is too often viewed as too stigmatizing to do so to men as a whole but fine to do so to people with mental ill health and autistic people with far weaker evidence. We're an easy target that ignores the bigger picture. 

 

I think autistic people and those with mental illnesses deserve better care and better diagnosis practices which, as this thread has shown, is highly variable would be great, but I don't think there is evidence that it would cause a significant reduction in mass murders in the US. I think far more needs to be done on access to weapons and ammunition as well as an open discussion of masculinity and it's portrayals and enforcement to achieve that result. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by SporkUK

[MotherGoose]

To me, one of the differences between conduct/antisocial/psychopath (don't think psychopath is an actual diagnosis) and autism is that people with autism don't understand social interactions. People with conduct et.al. Do have an understanding of it, they just don't care and will use that knowledge to further evil goals.

[Rosie_0801]

To me, one of the differences between conduct/antisocial/psychopath (don't think psychopath is an actual diagnosis) and autism is that people with autism don't understand social interactions. People with conduct et.al. Do have an understanding of it, they just don't care and will use that knowledge to further evil goals.

 

I'm getting to wonder how much is people with autism not understanding social interactions and how much is not knowing what to do about duplicitousness.

[Pawz4me]

I'm getting to wonder how much is people with autism not understanding social interactions and how much is not knowing what to do about duplicitousness.

 

I think "not knowing what to do" are the key words there. DS19 certainly understands emotions and has empathy. He just doesn't intuitively know what to do with that empathy. Although I think that's relatively normal for many NT males of the same age.

 

It is extremely troubling to see autism equated with psychopathy. Ignorance and ugliness both seem to be running rampant this week. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Pawz4me

[jewellsmommy]

To me, one of the differences between conduct/antisocial/psychopath (don't think psychopath is an actual diagnosis) and autism is that people with autism don't understand social interactions. People with conduct et.al. Do have an understanding of it, they just don't care and will use that knowledge to further evil goals.

 

Yes, very close. The goal with antisocial pd is to install an external code of conduct that replaces an internalized morality (because they lack that emotional guidance). For some this works. It is all about convincing them about how it benefits them to play within the rules of society as opposed to always following their whims and desires. You can not make them care or feel for the sake of someone else. The "how would you feel in Bob's shoes" or "how would you like it if..." type of exercises are totally useless and only serve to better help them mimic appropriate social cues. I heard it repeated many times..."We can teach him right and wrong. We can teach him alternative coping skills. We can't make him care or want to implement any of it."  :sad:

 

But, for them, It is not usually about pursuing evil. It is about following their desires, proving they are the smartest, best or most cunning etc. and they get bored easily. Of course to the rest of us it sure looks like a love of evil things.

[Katy]

I think "not knowing what to do" are the key words there. DS19 certainly understands emotions and has empathy. He just doesn't intuitively know what to do with that empathy. Although I think that's relatively normal for many NT males of the same age.

 

It is extremely troubling to see autism equated with psychopathy. Ignorance and ugliness both seem to be running rampant this week. 

 

I'm attempting to do the opposite.  Like it or not, a significant number of mass shooters have had a diagnosis.  I'm speculating that the diagnosis is wrong, and should be differentiated into something else.  Previously this has been classified as a subtype of autism, but if the primary commonality is the specific types of brain damage caused by prenatal exposure, I'm arguing the diagnosis should not be autism even if symptoms otherwise fit the same diagnostic criteria.

 

Also I fail to see the logic in avoiding identifying new areas for research - the point is to develop treatments that prevent this sort of thing, not to create new prejudices or mass hysteria.   I think most people would agree that if brain damage is part of the equation that makes the perpetrators less morally culpable, not more.

[Scarlett]

I'm attempting to do the opposite. Like it or not, a significant number of mass shooters have had a diagnosis. I'm speculating that the diagnosis is wrong, and should be differentiated into something else. Previously this has been classified as a subtype of autism, but if the primary commonality is the specific types of brain damage caused by prenatal exposure, I'm arguing the diagnosis should not be autism even if symptoms otherwise fit the same diagnostic criteria.

 

Also I fail to see the logic in avoiding identifying new areas for research - the point is to develop treatments that prevent this sort of thing, not to create new prejudices or mass hysteria. I think most people would agree that if brain damage is part of the equation that makes the perpetrators less morally culpable, not more.

I did understand what you were trying to say and I am surprised at how the thread turned. It happens though. Especially with emotionally charged issues.

 

I have a thread 'troubled 16 year old' and the way her story is unfolding is terrifying. I almost feel like she should be locked up now for her own safety and that of others. And her path has been a long history of various defiant behaviors.

[shawthorne44]

I've never heard that, but I have heard people say that the sociopathy is evident very early on  -- the abuse of critters, the trying to evoke strong emotions by hurting others , etc -- is seen very early in the dc who are eventually moved to alternative school as part of the agreement to avoid the juvenile justice system. 

 

Even as babies.   The test is "Does the baby pay more attention to the ball than the human's face?"

 

As I was waking up this morning, I was thinking along the same lines.  Autism diagnosis is way up.  But, it is the socially acceptable diagnosis so a bunch of other stuff is probably getting shoved under that rug.   Which stinks for those kids who truly are autistic, because all those misdiagnosed kids muddy the waters when people try to figure out what to do.   

 

I think that society is really messing up by refusing to diagnosis kids as psychopaths.   For one thing we can't treat it, or even figure out how to treat it if we aren't diagnosing it and studying it.  Some kids grow out of it.  What is different about those kids?   Wouldn't that be an important piece of the puzzle?      

 

A good work buddy of mine has a stepson that is diagnosed as Autistic and I really suspect he is a psychopath.   

 

I suspect that my Evil Grandmother was a Psychopath.   I think that the only reason she never killed anyone was that it wasn't worth the bother, or maybe she got away with it.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Even as babies.   The test is "Does the baby pay more attention to the ball than the human's face?"

 

As I was waking up this morning, I was thinking along the same lines.  Autism diagnosis is way up.  But, it is the socially acceptable diagnosis so a bunch of other stuff is probably getting shoved under that rug.   Which stinks for those kids who truly are autistic, because all those misdiagnosed kids muddy the waters when people try to figure out what to do.   

 

I think that society is really messing up by refusing to diagnosis kids as psychopaths.   For one thing we can't treat it, or even figure out how to treat it if we aren't diagnosing it and studying it.  Some kids grow out of it.  What is different about those kids?   Wouldn't that be an important piece of the puzzle?      

 

A good work buddy of mine has a stepson that is diagnosed as Autistic and I really suspect he is a psychopath.   

 

I suspect that my Evil Grandmother was a Psychopath.   I think that the only reason she never killed anyone was that it wasn't worth the bother, or maybe she got away with it.  

 

Well, there are no awesome testing methods for one thing.  Labeling a child a psychopath is pretty much a death sentence.  There is no treatment known to work.  And what if those who diagnose are wrong?  I can absolutely understand why people are hesitant to label a child a psychopath. 

 

To add, MOST psychopaths do not murder people. 

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see the similarities between psychopathy and autism really.  But what makes it extra complicated in my mind is that the range of people who get the diagnosis seems huge.  I've known of autistic people who bang their head against walls and scream all the time verses some who aren't social enough for some people's taste.  How is that even the same thing?

 

 

[Scarlett]

I don't see the similarities between psychopathy and autism really. But what makes it extra complicated in my mind is that the range of people who get the diagnosis seems huge. I've known of autistic people who bang their head against walls and scream all the time verses some who aren't social enough for some people's taste. How is that even the same thing?

This has been my question for a long time.

 

And I agree I don't see the similarities between autism and psychopathy. In fact I thought being on the spectrum often includes black and white thinking and a strong sense of right and wrong.

[maize]

Well, psychopathy isn't a diagnosis in itself, it is considered a "specifier"--like a sub type--of anti social personality disorder.

 

 

Traits from the following link:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201610/diagnosing-psychopathy

 

"The interpersonal traits include glibness, superficial charm, grandiosity, pathological lying and manipulation of others. The affective traits include a lack of remorse and/or guilt, shallow affect, lack of empathy and failure to accept responsibility. The lifestyle behaviors include stimulation-seeking behavior, impulsivity, irresponsibility, parasitic orientation and a lack of realistic life goals. Antisocial behaviors include poor behavioral controls, early childhood behavior problems, juvenile delinquency, revocation of conditional release and committing a variety of crimes.

 

An individual who possesses all of the interpersonal, affective, lifestyle and antisocial personality traits measured by PCL-R is considered a psychopath. A clinical designation of psychopathy in the PCL-R test is based on a lifetime pattern of psychopathic behavior."

[SparklyUnicorn]

I watched a couple of documentaries on psychopaths.  (Amazon has a few in Prime.)  These people tend to be quite charming.  They are master manipulators and think nothing about doing whatever it takes to gain something for themselves.  They feel zero remorse.  I don't see the connection between that and autism...at all.

 

 

[catz]

I haven't read all responses yet, but I think there is a bunch of grey area when it comes to diagnosing these types of issues.  Especially in kids.  I know plenty of kids who have had their dx altered after later and/or further testing.  It is also very possible to have comorbid conditions in this area. 

 

I don't think we KNOW that this shooter was autistic and we may never know the full story due to patient privacy.  Some guy said that someone else said he was autistic or whatever.  I think that label gets thrown around pretty loosely these days.  It's possible his mother may have used that label for simplicity but he may have had other diagnoses.

 

I think the fact is with many of these kids there ARE warning signs ahead of time.  And not necessarily a specific diagnosis at all.  Some kids with syndromes and diagnosesare super sweet and gentle and empathetic.  But continued uncontrollable violence and outbursts are a sign a kid needs more help and intervention.  Instead of just expelling kids and I do agree some violent kids can not be main streamed.  But there are not quality intensive programs for kids like this.  It sounds like his mother really struggled. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by FuzzyCatz

[Scarlett]

Well, psychopathy isn't a diagnosis in itself, it is considered a "specifier"--like a sub type--of anti social personality disorder.

 

 

Traits from the following link:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201610/diagnosing-psychopathy

 

"The interpersonal traits include glibness, superficial charm, grandiosity, pathological lying and manipulation of others. The affective traits include a lack of remorse and/or guilt, shallow affect, lack of empathy and failure to accept responsibility. The lifestyle behaviors include stimulation-seeking behavior, impulsivity, irresponsibility, parasitic orientation and a lack of realistic life goals. Antisocial behaviors include poor behavioral controls, early childhood behavior problems, juvenile delinquency, revocation of conditional release and committing a variety of crimes.

 

An individual who possesses all of the interpersonal, affective, lifestyle and antisocial personality traits measured by PCL-R is considered a psychopath. A clinical designation of psychopathy in the PCL-R test is based on a lifetime pattern of psychopathic behavior."

This is a spine chilling description of the 16 year girl in my thread. Except she is not exactly charming.

 

What is parasitic orientation?

[jewellsmommy]

Well, there are no awesome testing methods for one thing.  Labeling a child a psychopath is pretty much a death sentence.  There is no treatment known to work.  And what if those who diagnose are wrong?  I can absolutely understand why people are hesitant to label a child a psychopath. 

 

To add, MOST psychopaths do not murder people. 

 

 

Personality disorders are not officially diagnosed until 18. Before that the behaviors are dealt with as "conduct disorder." Conduct disorder, though, can also be labeled on a teen acting out for other reasons and they outgrow/mature or therapy helps them identify their stressors etc. No psychiatrist would officially label a child a sociopath or psychopath. They may give a mom a "heads up" that their kid is a "budding sociopath" but, again, nothing official. 

 

A psychopath and sociopath have the same dx (Antisocial PD). The expression of the hallmark behaviors is what makes the difference.

 

And you are absolutely right that there are many Anti-social pd dxed people who live peaceful lives. Therapy can work to help them establish coping skills and checks and balances to their tendencies. But, they have to choose to accept that mindset.

[nixpix5]

Autism, and other disabilities like ADHD, or ID, or learning disabilities, are disabilities that are diagnosed according to symptoms. If someone has the symptoms of autism, regardless of the cause, then they're autistic.

 

FAS, or genetic syndromes, or brain damage are terms that refer to how a disability was acquired, or where it came from. While most cases of autism occur without an identified cause, you can absolutely have autism with FAS as a factor, or autism with a genetic disorder as a factor.

Yes, of course. I work in the mental health field and previously was in academic neuro-research so I do in fact know this. I am speaking specifically from a place of classification. What has always bothered me as someone who knows the brain inside and out, is the way we compartmentalize what is essentially a misbalance of neurotransmitter and receptors. If you liken our brain to a musical instrument, our current classification system treats each "illness" as a separate instrument (autism is a flute, FAS is a clarinet, ADHD is a trombone etc) and they say "you have a flute, a clarinet and a trombone playing at the same time...for example.

 

Our brain is actually a piano. Each ailment is composed of a finite set of keys on a piano and sure, you can produce alot of pieces on a piano but they still are all the same keys just in different configurations. Due to this their is a ton of overlap between these compartmentalized checklists and to muddy the waters, everyone exhibits them differently. Ever heard that saying "if you met one person with autism then you have met one person with autism"? Our pediatricians as well as many clinicians are just not neurobiologically trained and should be. We have a real problem with correct diagnosis. Why does one therapist see bipolar, another depression, another ODD, another PTSD so on and so forth? Because our piano isn't as compartmentalized as one might think. We must stop and realize that a person lives with an autism identify for life once diagnosed. It better damn well be accurate and there is next to no way to tease this out truly much of the time. We depend on experts to do their most thorough work which is often based on self or other reporting. We live in an age where everyone knows what autism should look like so teachers will report and there is often bias attached to that report. Same goes for parents trying to secure a diagnosis for support and therapy.

 

So this is what I meant. Many people don't understand how flawed and inaccurate the DSM process truly is. Not even those in mental health who treat it like a bible fully grasp it because, again, they don't have the neurobiological training to grasp it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh, the similarity is the lack of expressing emotions others feel are appropriate.  Lots of people don't understand cultural difference, so if a child doesn't express the way their culture does, they throw out the label autistic. They also don't understand the IQ range.   My kid for ex, had some parents label him 'the other' and 'autistic' in preschool, because he didn't gather round an injured classmate, weeping plus he ignored the toddler behaviors.  He had already been trained in first aid, and knew he was not to distract the adult or get in the way of the first responder. He had looked for the phone but the adult had it on their person so he didn't need to dial 911.  He then comforted children who were becoming scared.  (the classmate was just stunned, he had jumped off a swing and not landed it, no concussion).  He wasn't known for talking much then, he hadn't had good luck in finding classmates who could converse as so many were very young for grade and were still playing alone, so he was ignoring all who talked like babies.  The parents didn't do due diligence and just threw labels instead of acknowledging the age and developmental differences.

 

The pychopath is good at lies. He does them to acheive his means.  The victim's pain is meaningless, the psychopath doesn't have the type of brain that can feel it.  The ones I know that don't hurt others physically are that way because literally the nuns or the parents put the fear of God into them and they don't have convincing evidence that they won't be met at the gate to heaven and sent to hell. Or they have decided they can't get away with the crime..the school here brings former prisoners in and very graphically tells them the straight truth about life inside.

 

Yes there are many reasons for behavior that aren't often apparent to others.  As a kid people got on me for not looking them in the eyes.  I have very poor vision and am farsighted.  When someone gets too close to my face their face is very blurry.  Who wants to stare at a blurry face?  It is very uncomfortable! 

[Pawz4me]

I'm attempting to do the opposite.  Like it or not, a significant number of mass shooters have had a diagnosis.  I'm speculating that the diagnosis is wrong, and should be differentiated into something else.  Previously this has been classified as a subtype of autism, but if the primary commonality is the specific types of brain damage caused by prenatal exposure, I'm arguing the diagnosis should not be autism even if symptoms otherwise fit the same diagnostic criteria.

 

Also I fail to see the logic in avoiding identifying new areas for research - the point is to develop treatments that prevent this sort of thing, not to create new prejudices or mass hysteria.   I think most people would agree that if brain damage is part of the equation that makes the perpetrators less morally culpable, not more.

 

Yes, I understand and appreciate what you're trying to do.

 

That wasn't what my comment was aimed at.