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What's the real ROI on a "better" CS school?


Momto6inIN
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Sorry this is long ...

 

DS is planning on going into Computer Science, possibly minoring in math and/or physics, and he wants to find a professor to do AI research with if at all possible.

 

He got into Purdue and since we live nearby he could possibly live at home and commute. This is his first choice school since it is so highly ranked for CS. Our church denomination also has a very active and vibrant youth group on campus that he's excited about. But he didn't get any merit aid even though he's a NMF :( So unless they give us grants of some sort (unlikely because of our income, although we do have a big family, so maybe?Ă¢â‚¬â€¹) he would be full pay.

 

He also got into IU Bloomington and they have given him $13000/year so far and asked him to apply for more selective scholarships as well. And if he puts them as his first choice for NMF he would probably get $1-2000/year on top of all that. But they are not well ranked for CS.

 

He did get into Rose Hulman too and although they gave him $23000 in merit aid/year it still leaves $44000 in loans so it's pretty much off the table unless we win the lottery lol

 

He does not want to go into debt to finance his education and neither do we. After all, we've got 4 more kids' educations to pay for in the next decade or so! So it would be a mix of our savings and his 529 plan and him working part time and summers and applying for outside scholarships (which he is already doing).

 

I don't mind putting up more money up front if he will have a better shot at jobs/placement/etc after graduation. But does a more well ranked school really lead to more job offers and opportunities after school? Or are CS majors in demand no matter what?

 

I know it's ultimately his decision and so does he, but what other factors should we be looking at here? Thanks for helping me think it through ...

 

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Do they have AI research going on on the campuses? Has he contacted the dept and asked about UG research? Contacted professors doing the AI research (assuming there is some on campus) and inquired about UG opportunities? I am not familiar with AI and CS, but experience has mattered more than anything else in terms of our kids pursuing their goals.

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Do they have AI research going on on the campuses? Has he contacted the dept and asked about UG research? Contacted professors doing the AI research (assuming there is some on campus) and inquired about UG opportunities? I am not familiar with AI and CS, but experience has mattered more than anything else in terms of our kids pursuing their goals.

Those questions are now on the list for the campus visit days, thank you!

 

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Assuming tuition at IU and Purdue is about the same (before his merit scholarship), it seems like they would be a wash, financially, because he could live at home and commute to Purdue, while he would have to live on campus/or in an off-campus apartment if he chose IU. Is this correct? If so, I say chose the better-ranked school.

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Assuming tuition at IU and Purdue is about the same (before his merit scholarship), it seems like they would be a wash, financially, because he could live at home and commute to Purdue, while he would have to live on campus/or in an off-campus apartment if he chose IU. Is this correct? If so, I say chose the better-ranked school.

Yes, currently they are a wash. DS thinks he probably has a good shot at a selective scholarship at IU that hasn't been announced yet so that would muddy the waters. But I guess I'm borrowing trouble by thinking about the "what if" instead of the current situation [emoji57]

 

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Those questions are now on the list for the campus visit days, thank you!

 

You could look up the list of CS professors at the schools and then look up what research they've recently published before going on a campus visit. And send emails to professors as well. Also, if he's interested in AI, he might want to pick a school that offers some cognitive science and maybe even some neuroscience courses as well (some schools have cognitive science as a separate major (e.g. UTD), others might have decent offerings in the psych dept, others might have little-to-none).

 

If IU turns out to be significantly better financially, what about doing 2 years there and trying to transfer to Purdue? He'd have to talk to the transfer admissions folks and also the CS department to find out if there are any department limitations on transferring.

 

 

If he were to do that, he'd have to reapply as a transfer student though, which means he might not get admitted, right? And then there's transfer drama of what credits they will/won't accept, or might just give general elective credit for but not other credit, and the university's gen ed requirements might be different, etc... I probably wouldn't even contemplate this until the cost difference is enormous. 

 

I think the name of the school matters more if he wants to become a professor than if he wants to work in industry. 

 

ETA: and the prereq sequences... when we were at UTD, in the cognitive science major there was a 2 year sequence of intelligent systems analysis/design courses that were offered every 2 years, so, if you were to transfer in the wrong year you'd basically need to spend 3 years to be able to do that 2 year sequence because the first year they'd be in the second half of the sequence.

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Do they have AI research going on on the campuses? Has he contacted the dept and asked about UG research? Contacted professors doing the AI research (assuming there is some on campus) and inquired about UG opportunities? I am not familiar with AI and CS, but experience has mattered more than anything else in terms of our kids pursuing their goals.

:iagree: I'd try to find contact information for the departments and email for information before the campus visits. The campus visit would be a good time to talk face to face with the actual professors (ideally) or department (not as great). If they both have AI research going on, meeting with the actual professors and asking questions at the visit will be VERY helpful. You might find one (school) is more open or one professor is more dismissive of UGs. It might simply come down to personalities, too. If you wait until the actual campus visit to ask the questions, it is unlikely you'd get a visit set up that same day with the right people/persons.

 

It doesn't answer your underlying question, but it might make the ultimate selection easier.

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So unless they give us grants of some sort (unlikely because of our income, although we do have a big family, so maybe?Ă¢â‚¬â€¹) he would be full pay.

 

I think the first question is whether or not you can afford Purdue or if the question is moot because he's going to have to make the most of the school that funded him.

 

Did you run Purdue's net price calculator? Are you both comfortable with the idea of him living at home to make the school more affordable? (Don't forget to include the cost of car/gas/insurance/parking in the commuter option.)

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:iagree: I'd try to find contact information for the departments and email for information before the campus visits. The campus visit would be a good time to talk face to face with the actual professors (ideally) or department (not as great). If they both have AI research going on, meeting with the actual professors and asking questions at the visit will be VERY helpful. You might find one (school) is more open or one professor is more dismissive of UGs. It might simply come down to personalities, too. If you wait until the actual campus visit to ask the questions, it is unlikely you'd get a visit set up that same day with the right people/persons.

 

It doesn't answer your underlying question, but it might make the ultimate selection easier.

This is a good idea! I am part of an admitted students FB group for Purdue and the College of Science recruiter has contacted me through that, so I might have DS see if he can set something up with him and see if IU will do something similar.

 

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I think the first question is whether or not you can afford Purdue or if the question is moot because he's going to have to make the most of the school that funded him.

 

Did you run Purdue's net price calculator? Are you both comfortable with the idea of him living at home to make the school more affordable? (Don't forget to include the cost of car/gas/insurance/parking in the commuter option.)

I ran the NPC several months ago and it indicated we might be eligible for $5000 in grants. I ran it again earlier this week and it asked more detailed questions this time and came back with $0 in grants. So I'm still hopeful but not optimistic.

 

He would like to live in an apt with friends at some point, but for the first year at least we are both fine with him living at home.

 

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Could he co-op at Purdue to earn a good chunk of his living expenses? I have known of co-op students who earn a lot more than the $10/hour he might earn working at Target. If Purdue has a more robust co-op program and is more highly-regarded, maybe he can have both, and good work experience to boot.

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The answer really depends on the student's end goals. 

 

If your son is planning on going to graduate school, then the undergraduate school name may matter more than if he enters the workforce and does not continue his education formally (not counting self-education, certifications, etc.). For a career, your certifications may matter more than the actual diploma, depending on the industry. For example, if he wanted to get into the security specialization, the Cisco CISSP certification would carry more weight than the name of the school for the undergraduate degree. 

 

If he wants to do serious research, then one way to look at the decision is backwards: if he wants to work with professor XYZ at graduate school A, and then go on to earn a PhD at the same school (or school B) under the mentorship of professor ABC, what does he need to do? He may want to contact the graduate and postgraduate programs and ask them their requirements, talk to professors or perhaps current graduate/PhD students, and see what they did to get into the program. 

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Could he co-op at Purdue to earn a good chunk of his living expenses? I have known of co-op students who earn a lot more than the $10/hour he might earn working at Target. If Purdue has a more robust co-op program and is more highly-regarded, maybe he can have both, and good work experience to boot.

That's a good idea... I know they have a co-op program for engineering but not sure about CS

 

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The answer really depends on the student's end goals.

 

If your son is planning on going to graduate school, then the undergraduate school name may matter more than if he enters the workforce and does not continue his education formally (not counting self-education, certifications, etc.). For a career, your certifications may matter more than the actual diploma, depending on the industry. For example, if he wanted to get into the security specialization, the Cisco CISSP certification would carry more weight than the name of the school for the undergraduate degree.

 

If he wants to do serious research, then one way to look at the decision is backwards: if he wants to work with professor XYZ at graduate school A, and then go on to earn a PhD at the same school (or school B) under the mentorship of professor ABC, what does he need to do? He may want to contact the graduate and postgraduate programs and ask them their requirements, talk to professors or perhaps current graduate/PhD students, and see what they did to get into the program.

Hmmm ... I really don't know how to answer that. Right now what's driving his interest in research is just his innate thirst for knowledge and to challenge himself as much as he can because he loves to learn hard stuff. But I don't know that that's what he wants to do forever. I guess I see him more as doing R&D for a company someday instead of in academia, but I just don't know.

 

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Several other aspects of this.

 

Make sure that the school is ABET accredited (www.abet.org) in computer science. Some employers ONLY interview at ABET schools.

 

And see if you can find out what companies interview there. That will be an indication of quality. I once had a contract employee who went to a school who primarily provided programmers for state and local government. Nothing wrong with that, but he was trying to get on at the research institution where he was working for me, and he told me that he was not getting any interviews at all. When a position came up in our group, he interviewed, and I gave him a good work reference, but the others on the hiring committee put him aside because of the school he went to. In contrast, we actually hired two friends of mine from good schools who were doing graduate school part-time like I was, and the school issue didn't come up at all. 

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Several other aspects of this.

 

Make sure that the school is ABET accredited (www.abet.org) in computer science. Some employers ONLY interview at ABET schools.

 

And see if you can find out what companies interview there. That will be an indication of quality. I once had a contract employee who went to a school who primarily provided programmers for state and local government. Nothing wrong with that, but he was trying to get on at the research institution where he was working for me, and he told me that he was not getting any interviews at all. When a position came up in our group, he interviewed, and I gave him a good work reference, but the others on the hiring committee put him aside because of the school he went to. In contrast, we actually hired two friends of mine from good schools who were doing graduate school part-time like I was, and the school issue didn't come up at all.

Thank you for bringing up this angle.

 

I looked at the ABET website and it looks like neither Purdue nor IU are accredited. But the job fair list for Pursue says the recruiters include Amazon, Boeing, Google, Facebook, Microsoft and many others. Haven't looked at the IU list yet. Rose Hulman is accredited.

 

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Thank you for bringing up this angle.

 

I looked at the ABET website and it looks like neither Purdue nor IU are accredited. But the job fair list for Pursue says the recruiters include Amazon, Boeing, Google, Facebook, Microsoft and many others. Haven't looked at the IU list yet. Rose Hulman is accredited.

 

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Yes, you have to balance it all out. A good friend of mine from my undergraduate days went to Purdue for his master's and worked developing the underpinnings of commercial internet *very* early on. He's in Silicon Valley and is a multi-millionaire. The interview list is very important. Some employers care about ABET, and some don't (obviously). In my metropolitan area, it counts for the first job, but not after that.

 

My degrees are in computer science, and I teach community college web design. We carefully orient our program toward a 4-year with ABET certification in information technology that is in the top 25 in the U.S.

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Disclaimer: I know nothing about the computer science programs at Indiana or Purdue. I am not going to say what your son should do, because that truly depends on your son and the bottom-line cost.

 

That said, let me share my recent college-grad's experience when she was deciding where to go to college. She was choosing between the "better-cs-school" and the school she wanted to attend. Since she has graduated, I can also tell you how the story played out in terms of roi.

 

During her junior year of high school, she met with the head of the computer science department at the school she wanted to attend, and he assured her that if she co-oped, she would graduate with a job waiting. She also visited the better-cs-school, and she did not like the campus. She decided to only apply to the school she wanted to attend. (We knew she could afford it, because of automatic scholarships/programs she would receive.)

 

Her plan was to co-op. She received three offers her freshman year after the five allowed interviews. However, she decided not to co-op, because she decided college was the time to experience different work environments: tech company, industry, big company, small company, etc. During college, she did research at a different school freshman summer; interned at household-name tech companies in Silicon Valley the next two summers; conducted on-campus research for two years; and interned for a small internet company while studying abroad junior year.

 

She received a job offer during her junior-year internship, and she was invited to interview for a job with the company that she interned with sophomore year. So, she went back to school for senior year knowing she would be working for one of two companies. Both companies are always ranked as top-places to work/intern. In the end, she chose to go with the junior-year company, because there she could pick the "team" she worked on instead of it being assigned.

 

From what I read, roi is based on standard costs rather than individual costs, so I don't know how to actually calculate it. I do know the bonus was more than enough to payoff the maximum amount of student loans that undergraduates can take out during college. If she had not received that bonus, her savings each month, outside of what she saves in her 401K, would pay off the maximum amount in less than a year. That said, she came home from her sophomore-year internship talking about the full-time employees complaining about paying student loans, but I don't remember specifics.

 

Those questions are now on the list for the campus visit days, thank you!

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It looks like Indiana definitely has AI programs as well as programs for undergraduate research in computer science.

https://www.sice.indiana.edu/faculty-research/student-research/uroc/index.html

 

Here is the link for AI research; it mentions about 20 faculty members. https://www.sice.indiana.edu/faculty-research/research/artificial-intelligence.html

 

Assuming tuition at IU and Purdue is about the same (before his merit scholarship), it seems like they would be a wash, financially, because he could live at home and commute to Purdue, while he would have to live on campus/or in an off-campus apartment if he chose IU. Is this correct? If so, I say chose the better-ranked school.

 

 

This depends on the student. My oldest was ready/really wanted to leave home. She would have felt something was missing if she had lived at home for college. My current college student would have been fine living at home for college.

 

I saw you mentioned he would be fine living at home for one year. How would he pay for the apartment/expenses for the other years?

 

I think the first question is whether or not you can afford Purdue or if the question is moot because he's going to have to make the most of the school that funded him.

Did you run Purdue's net price calculator? Are you both comfortable with the idea of him living at home to make the school more affordable? (Don't forget to include the cost of car/gas/insurance/parking in the commuter option.)

 

 

 

If he goes to Indiana, your food bill, power/water bills, etc, will go down somewhat. Of course, he will have food costs no matter what.

 

Does the Purdue faith program have housing? I know people who have lived in church housing near campus very cheaply. I think it included economic food too, but it has been a while.

 

That's a good idea... I know they have a co-op programe for engineering but not sure about CS

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Purdue does have a co-op program in computer science. I think you can even get an idea of what he would be paid to co-op each semester. If a co-op position would be enough for him to cover the difference from Indiana (or his room/board), that seems like a good plan.

 

If he would rather intern, there seem to be plenty of cs internships, and they are generally paid internships. My daughter could have paid for her college with the earnings from her internships, but her college costs were low. My current college student's expenses are even lower; he could have possibly paid for two years of tuition, room, board with the $5,000 he made doing research last summer.

 

https://opp.purdue.edu/programs/matrix.html

 

It does seem odd that neither school is on the ABET list, but Stanford's computer science program is not on the list either. I know my daughter interned/works with graduates from there. She also interned with someone from either Indiana or Purdue, but I can't remember which.

 

Good luck to your son as he makes his decision.

 

P.S. My daughter also was admitted to Rose-Hulman. I made her apply when she only wanted to apply to the school she wanted to attend. RH had a free application. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it would have cost $20,000-$30,0000 a year to attend after scholarships. (Her test scores were well above their top 25 percent.) I laughed, since you always hear about private schools being generous and wanting diversity. They had 124 women in the freshman class her freshman year; about 25 percent of the freshman class. To be fair, she never visited or contacted the school. She simply filled out a free application and sent her test scores.

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Disclaimer: I know nothing about the computer science programs at Indiana or Purdue. I am not going to say what your son should do, because that truly depends on your son and the bottom-line cost.

 

That said, let me share my recent college-grad's experience when she was deciding where to go to college. She was choosing between the "better-cs-school" and the school she wanted to attend. Since she has graduated, I can also tell you how the story played out in terms of roi.

 

During her junior year of high school, she met with the head of the computer science department at the school she wanted to attend, and he assured her that if she co-oped, she would graduate with a job waiting. She also visited the better-cs-school, and she did not like the campus. She decided to only apply to the school she wanted to attend. (We knew she could afford it, because of automatic scholarships/programs she would receive.)

 

Her plan was to co-op. She received three offers her freshman year after the five allowed interviews. However, she decided not to co-op, because she decided college was the time to experience different work environments: tech company, industry, big company, small company, etc. During college, she did research at a different school freshman summer; interned at household-name tech companies in Silicon Valley the next two summers; conducted on-campus research for two years; and interned for a small internet company while studying abroad junior year.

 

She received a job offer during her junior-year internship, and she was invited to interview for a job with the company that she interned with sophomore year. So, she went back to school for senior year knowing she would be working for one of two companies. Both companies are always ranked as top-places to work/intern. In the end, she chose to go with the junior-year company, because there she could pick the "team" she worked on instead of it being assigned.

 

From what I read, roi is based on standard costs rather than individual costs, so I don't know how to actually calculate it. I do know the bonus was more than enough to payoff the maximum amount of student loans that undergraduates can take out during college. If she had not received that bonus, her savings each month, outside of what she saves in her 401K, would pay off the maximum amount in less than a year. That said, she came home from her sophomore-year internship talking about the full-time employees complaining about paying student loans, but I don't remember specifics.

 

 

It looks like Indiana definitely has AI programs as well as programs for undergraduate research in computer science.

https://www.sice.indiana.edu/faculty-research/student-research/uroc/index.html

 

Here is the link for AI research; it mentions about 20 faculty members. https://www.sice.indiana.edu/faculty-research/research/artificial-intelligence.html

 

 

 

This depends on the student. My oldest was ready/really wanted to leave home. She would have felt something was missing if she had lived at home for college. My current college student would have been fine living at home for college.

 

I saw you mentioned he would be fine living at home for one year. How would he pay for the apartment/expenses for the other years?

 

 

 

If he goes to Indiana, your food bill, power/water bills, etc, will go down somewhat. Of course, he will have food costs no matter what.

 

Does the Purdue faith program have housing? I know people who have lived in church housing near campus very cheaply. I think it included economic food too, but it has been a while.

 

 

Purdue does have a co-op program in computer science. I think you can even get an idea of what he would be paid to co-op each semester. If a co-op position would be enough for him to cover the difference from Indiana (or his room/board), that seems like a good plan.

 

If he would rather intern, there seem to be plenty of cs internships, and they are generally paid internships. My daughter could have paid for her college with the earnings from her internships, but her college costs were low. My current college student's expenses are even lower; he could have possibly paid for two years of tuition, room, board with the $5,000 he made doing research last summer.

 

https://opp.purdue.edu/programs/matrix.html

 

It does seem odd that neither school is on the ABET list, but Stanford's computer science program is not on the list either. I know my daughter interned/works with graduates from there. She also interned with someone from either Indiana or Purdue, but I can't remember which.

 

Good luck to your son as he makes his decision.

 

P.S. My daughter also was admitted to Rose-Hulman. I made her apply when she only wanted to apply to the school she wanted to attend. RH had a free application. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it would have cost $20,000-$30,0000 a year to attend after scholarships. (Her test scores were well above their top 25 percent.) I laughed, since you always hear about private schools being generous and wanting diversity. They had 124 women in the freshman class her freshman year; about 25 percent of the freshman class. To be fair, she never visited or contacted the school. She simply filled out a free application and sent her test scores.

Wow, so many good thoughts here, thanks!

 

I've been sharing all these posts with him and he says he probably would not want to co op because, like your daughter, he would prefer to diversify his job experiences. He definitely would like to intern and is hopeful that the income from those would finance an on campus apt with church friends (likely around $3000/year for living expenses with 3 roommates vs. $10000+/year for dorms) and some of the tuition costs as well. The youth group doesn't have "housing" per se but there is a specific apt building that they all typically live in.

 

Living at home and going to Purdue is what many of the locals around here do and many of his friends are already doing that in addition to the friends who offered him an apt spot, so he really is fine with living here. The slick snowy roads in the early morning driving to campus concern me, as well as driving home after a late night. But many around here seem to get along just fine with those challenges.

 

He is planning on contacting the recruiters at both schools and asking if he can meet with someone about undergrad research on our campus visit days as it looks like both schools offer that.

 

We were disappointed not to get more aid from Rose Hulman. He really really really loved it when we visited and it might have edged Purdue out as his first choice pick if it hadn't been so out of reach financially.

 

 

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Yes, IMO it will improve his employment possibilities and probably his starting salary.  I'm retired so this is dated, but I would not be surprised if this is still the case...

 

The first time I worked as a Software Engineer, under contract to a large aerospace company in the NW (you fly aboard their aircraft) I was told that they had a list of approximately 50 Engineering schools.  If someone wasn't a graduate of one of those schools, one did not have the word "Engineer" on their badge.

 

One of my late uncles got his BSEE in Electrical Engineering at Purdue.  

 

One of my late colleagues (and friends) got his BSEE in Electronic Engineering at Purdue.

 

I wonder if your DS might try to contact one or more professors who are doing the kind of research he is interested in participating and expressing his interest in that research. Possibly they might become interested in your DS and be able to help secure more Financial Aid.

 

Good luck to your DS!

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I do know the bonus was more than enough to payoff the maximum amount of student loans that undergraduates can take out during college. If she had not received that bonus, her savings each month, outside of what she saves in her 401K, would pay off the maximum amount in less than a year. That said, she came home from her sophomore-year internship talking about the full-time employees complaining about paying student loans, but I don't remember specifics.

I have to ask - was this a signing bonus your daughter received? Or her bonus after working for a year? Either way, kudos to her for earning a $27,000+ bonus! That's remarkable!

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I have now read thru all of the posts including #23.  Just on "gut feeling", because of my late Uncle and my late colleague and friend having gotten their undergraduate engineering degrees at Purdue, I would go for Purdue, if possible.

 

However, Indiana University - Bloomington is one of only 21 schools on the USNEWS.COM list of 2018 Best Undergraduate Teaching.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

 

That is a list I am looking at as DD wonders about different universities. IMO very important for the undergraduate students.

 

With regard to ABET, for me, that would be an absolute requirement. I was a "Member" of IEEE for approximately 25 years. IEEE and another group (ACM?) were evaluating universities many years ago.  However, I know that there are some  excellent schools that are not ABET accredited. I wonder why, but they are excellent schools.  I just searched on abet.org for Purdue University. Nothing...Then, I searched for Indiana University - Bloomington. Nothing...

 

Now, when I search on abet.org limiting my Google Search to that web site, here is the URL for Purdue University:

http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=86

 

As you can see, there are two (2) programs that are ABET accredited at Purdue University that begin with the word "Computer". 

 

I would wonder, for a long time, if Purdue University was not ABET accredited.

 

Now, I will  search with Google, limiting my search to abet.org and look for Indiana University - Bloomington.

 

"No results found"

 

If that's correct, IU - Bloomington would be way down my list

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Wouldn't ABET certification depend on whether computer science is housed in the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Science since ABET is an engineering certification?

 

I know that ABET matters for engineering, and I would not attend a college that did not have ABET for engineering majors.

 

My son's school does not have ABET certification, yet many of its students are hired at the well-known computer companies. For computer science, I would research where a college's graduates are hired rather than whether the college has ABET certification.

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Wouldn't ABET certification depend on whether computer science is housed in the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Science since ABET is an engineering certification?

 

I know that ABET matters for engineering, and I would not attend a college that did not have ABET for engineering majors.

 

My son's school does not have ABET certification, yet many of its students are hired at the well-known computer companies. For computer science, I would research where a college's graduates are hired rather than whether the college has ABET certification.

 

I am wondering the same thing.  Computer Science is not the same thing as Computer Engineering (in spite of much overlap), and in many schools it is in the College of Science or Arts & Sciences, and not the Engineering School.  I was perusing around the ABET site, and most accredited schools do not have Computer Science on their lists, just Computer (and other) Engineering - but I'd be surprised if all those schools didn't also have a Computer Science program.

 

Coop or internships are a fantastic way to get experience and job placement out of school.  Dd's planning on doing two coops - at least one not in the field she's been concentrating in, specifically so she can see what other areas of CS are like - and she's also thinking she'd love to do one abroad if she can (although she'll probably have to do most of the legwork on placement herself).  She also started working at the Robotics lab the summer after freshman year, and they offered to have her stay on over the school year, so she's not just getting good resume fodder but earning well over minimum wage for this job.

 

Really, it seems like no matter how fantastic the program, classwork is behind what industry is doing.  Many companies want the real-world experience.  If the next step is grad school that might be different.

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I am wondering the same thing.  Computer Science is not the same thing as Computer Engineering (in spite of much overlap), and in many schools it is in the College of Science or Arts & Sciences, and not the Engineering School.  I was perusing around the ABET site, and most accredited schools do not have Computer Science on their lists, just Computer (and other) Engineering - but I'd be surprised if all those schools didn't also have a Computer Science program.

 

Coop or internships are a fantastic way to get experience and job placement out of school.  Dd's planning on doing two coops - at least one not in the field she's been concentrating in, specifically so she can see what other areas of CS are like - and she's also thinking she'd love to do one abroad if she can (although she'll probably have to do most of the legwork on placement herself).  She also started working at the Robotics lab the summer after freshman year, and they offered to have her stay on over the school year, so she's not just getting good resume fodder but earning well over minimum wage for this job.

 

Really, it seems like no matter how fantastic the program, classwork is behind what industry is doing.  Many companies want the real-world experience.  If the next step is grad school that might be different.

I just checked out my oldest son's major. He is doing a combined math and computer science. It looks like his major is not recognized by ABET, either, but the computer science with engineering majors at his school do have the ABET. This lack of designation has not hindered him at all, either. Edited by snowbeltmom
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I spent a little time on the IU- Bloomington web site. It looks like one area of concentration is AI which is of interest to the DS of the OP.  Because of the financial aid IU - Bloomington has already offered (and suggested the possibility of more aid) I would suggest that he THOROUGHLY investigate the Majors he is interested in there and communicate with the relevant professors who are doing work in something he is interested in.  It might possibly be a good fit, because of the financial aid.  A campus visit there might eliminate IU - Blooomington from the list of possible schools, or put it at the top of the list, depending on what he finds out from Professors involved with his Major. 

 

ETA: I am from the Engineering world, so I would rather see someone going for a CS degree get it from the School or College of Engineering, and not some other school or college.   If my DD were interested in CS, that's what I would suggest to her.

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Wouldn't ABET certification depend on whether computer science is housed in the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Science since ABET is an engineering certification?

 

I know that ABET matters for engineering, and I would not attend a college that did not have ABET for engineering majors.

 

My son's school does not have ABET certification, yet many of its students are hired at the well-known computer companies. For computer science, I would research where a college's graduates are hired rather than whether the college has ABET certification.

 

This makes sense ... at Purdue CS is located in the College of Science, not the College of Engineering.

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I wonder if your DS might try to contact one or more professors who are doing the kind of research he is interested in participating and expressing his interest in that research. Possibly they might become interested in your DS and be able to help secure more Financial Aid.

 

He was planning on calling the recruiter at each school to set this up. Would he have better luck contacting the professors directly? Or would that be considered impolite or too forward or ???

 

I've been out of the professional world for a looooooooong time (and never in the academic world other than as a clueless undergrad) so I don't know what's "done".

 

And I assume I'm correct in thinking that he should never ask directly for more Financial Aid but wait to see if the professor brings it up?

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He was planning on calling the recruiter at each school to set this up. Would he have better luck contacting the professors directly? Or would that be considered impolite or too forward or ???

 

I've been out of the professional world for a looooooooong time (and never in the academic world other than as a clueless undergrad) so I don't know what's "done".

 

And I assume I'm correct in thinking that he should never ask directly for more Financial Aid but wait to see if the professor brings it up?

My kids have never contacted a recruiter, just professors. Not sure if that is correct procedure or not, but the responses have typically, though not always, positive.

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He was planning on calling the recruiter at each school to set this up. Would he have better luck contacting the professors directly? Or would that be considered impolite or too forward or ???

 

I've been out of the professional world for a looooooooong time (and never in the academic world other than as a clueless undergrad) so I don't know what's "done".

 

And I assume I'm correct in thinking that he should never ask directly for more Financial Aid but wait to see if the professor brings it up?

 

I think in the College (or School) where his desired Major is located, there might be someone who works with Admissions/Recruiting/Get them inside the door type questions, from prospective students.

 

Personally, if their names and email addresses are on the web site of the university, I would have your DS send a short, friendly and courteous email to any relevant professors, explaining his interests and asking if they would be willing to meet with him for 15 or 20 minutes, when he is on campus. 

 

If they do not respond, and positively, I would probably write that off and look at other schools.  If they respond positively, which I think they will, then your DS can get an idea of whether or not he would be happy there.

 

If their names and email address are not on the university web site, I would take that as a bad sign. Or their name and FAX number. Some way to contact them.

 

Probably the  Professors wouldn't be the proper people to discuss additional Financial Aid with, but, if they should see something in your DS that they would like to work with, they might go to bat with the Financial Aid Department for him.

 

I saw an "Extra" on Fox News Channel that explained how to subtly request additional Financial Aid. Something like, "We really like the school, but the number you have presented to us is just not possible for our family. Can you help us with that number?". 

 

If you get time from a Professor who is a Ph.D. to sit down with you, that's a great thing and   ideally your DS will have some interaction with them when he is an undergraduate.

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Wow, so many good thoughts here, thanks!

 

I've been sharing all these posts with him and he says he probably would not want to co op because...

 

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Ugh, I typed a long reply and it disappeared. I will try again later in the weekend.

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Yes, IMO it will improve his employment possibilities and probably his starting salary. I'm retired so this is dated, but I would not be surprised if this is still the case...

 

The first time I worked as a Software Engineer, under contract to a large aerospace company in the NW (you fly aboard their aircraft) I was told that they had a list of approximately 50 Engineering schools. If someone wasn't a graduate of one of those schools, one did not have the word "Engineer" on their badge.

That has not been my daughter's experience. She knows two people from high school who graduated from the "better cs school" in computer science. One moved to Silicon Valley to work for a humanitarian company that hires software engineers. Of course, he makes less. The other one moved to the same city where my daughter works, and she works for a different large, well known tech company in the area. My daughter was offered an internship at this company for her junior summer, but she turned it down. While the pay was comprable, she would have had to buy her own lunch/supper there. The company had flown her out for an interview, and she ate lunch in the cafeteria on a voucher. She noticed that the salad she ate would have cost $10. She did the math, and the money she saves working for a company that provides meals adds up to a significant amount.

 

My daughter's roommate, who graduated from a well-known private school in California, had a full-time job offer from this other company after graduation, but she chose to work for the same company as my daughter. They make the same salary.

 

My daughter's signing bonus was an extra 10,000, because she asked for more time to make a decision between the two companies she was deciding between. Her recruiter offered her the extra money and a trip to the company's XX office for new hire day. She had interned at the headquarters in Silicon Valley, and she had not seen the office in the city where she had wanted to work. The trip worked, and she signed her employment contract while visiting.

 

When she was interning for this company, she had heard they only hired from Ivies plus three (no clue the three). That bugged her, because she felt that meant they were missing out on some great people. However, she did see a lot of people from those type of schools, so she believed what she was told. She was excited when she met an intern who went to either Indiana or Purdue (I can't remember if it was Indiana or a public University in Indiana, aka Purdue.) She eventually talked to her recruiter her about it, and the recruiter could show her another/other employees who had graduated from her college.

 

In fact, the company was working to get rid of that reputation, so they chose my daughter to be interviewed by a magazine that was writing an article on "What's it like to intern for ..." She had applied online for the internship.

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I have to ask - was this a signing bonus your daughter received? Or her bonus after working for a year? Either way, kudos to her for earning a $27,000+ bonus! That's remarkable!

I know I typed signing, because I kept misreading it as singing bonus. I must have deleted that key word when I moved something around before posting. Sorry for the confusion. Since the OP was asking about CS grads paying off loans, I just used the amount undergrads can borrow. In reality, my daughter's bonus was about twice that.

 

I can't remember the exact number, because it wasn't an even number and it was offered in the summer/fall of 2016. Half of the bonus was to be paid that fall and the other half when she started worked in 2017. After graduation, she used some of the first-half of the signing bonus to buy a new SUV, that cost a bit less than students loans would have been. The company was paying to move a car to the new city, and her 12-year-old car had been in and out of the shop for the last year. She didn't want to move far away from home with an unreliable car, and she wanted a warranty. She wanted to buy it here, where the COL is less. She "sold" her college car to a younger brother, and it died within a week. Thankfully, he was working out of state, and not paid for it.

 

To further confuse the amount, when she got the first half of bonus, it was a lot more than she thought it should be. it seemed to be a completely random number. There were lots of discussions on what to do. Finally, she asked the friend that she would be rooming with once she moved about her signing bonus check. It turned out, she had been paid the wrong amount and she had to send some back. Thankfully, she had not spent any of it.

 

I can't remember about year-end bonuses. She travelled after graduation, so she didn't start work until the fall. I know she is "given" stock each year, but I don't know if that counts as a bonus. It is a very different world than where I worked once upon a time.

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Wouldn't ABET certification depend on whether computer science is housed in the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Science since ABET is an engineering certification?I know that ABET matters for engineering, and I would not attend a college that did not have ABET for engineering majors.My son's school does not have ABET certification, yet many of its students are hired at the well-known computer companies. For computer science, I would research where a college's graduates are hired rather than whether the college has ABET certification.

 

 

 

I am wondering the same thing.  Computer Science is not the same thing as Computer Engineering (in spite of much overlap), and in many schools it is in the College of Science or Arts & Sciences, and not the Engineering School.  I was perusing around the ABET site, and most accredited schools do not have Computer Science on their lists, just Computer (and other) Engineering - but I'd be surprised if all those schools didn't also have a Computer Science program.

 

..........

 

Really, it seems like no matter how fantastic the program, classwork is behind what industry is doing.  Many companies want the real-world experience.  If the next step is grad school that might be different.

That disctinction for accreditation would make sense to me. My daughter's program is accredited, so I never looked into it.

 

She always had a hard time going back to classwork after interning, because real work was more rewarding (or fun for her) than school work.

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Wouldn't ABET certification depend on whether computer science is housed in the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Science since ABET is an engineering certification?

 

I know that ABET matters for engineering, and I would not attend a college that did not have ABET for engineering majors.

 

My son's school does not have ABET certification, yet many of its students are hired at the well-known computer companies. For computer science, I would research where a college's graduates are hired rather than whether the college has ABET certification.

Looks like ABET is the only CS accrediting org.

http://www.schoolsintheusa.com/ComputerScienceAccreditation.cfm

https://www.computersciencezone.org/importance-of-computer-science-program-accreditation/

https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/science-majors/1084622-abet-accreditation-for-computer-science.html

 

back in my college days (don't ask when that was)  I think there used to be some ACM guidelines and CS program informal process.

https://www.acm.org/education/curricula-recommendations

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I think back in "the old days" IEEE and ACM did that. I was a "Member" of IEEE for many years.

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I'll give you yet another perspective from the fortune 500 tech company I work for as a senior software engineer on the hiring team. Our group cares very little about pedigree and much more about the work/internships done while in school. Experience is king in the industry. Pedigree and things like ABET mean less than relevant experiences. In fact, we hire other STEM majors such as math, physics, etc... with programming courses and good experience over someone without those experiences all the time. 

 

I do realize some companies still target a limited group of schools or look for certs. But from what I've seen that is becoming less common and basically N/A once the software engineer has a couple years of experience under their belt. If they get that experience while in school its N/A right from the get go. Here's an example of how Google has evolved after their own research proved their hiring bias was wrong: http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/09/technology/google-people-laszlo-bock/index.html

 

AI and machine learning are such specialty areas that I would look more at which schools offer more of those courses and research opportunities. At the undergraduate level most standard CS programs will go very little into AI. The student may take a class or two just scraping the surface. So a student might want to augment their major with outside courses or a dual major/minor in cognitive science as Luuknam mentioned. Some schools might have a strong robotics program including an AI component. Schools have robotic competitions which can be really fun. I would look for a program which provides opportunities to feed his passion more than other factors including pedigree. Then the rest will works it way out as he gets to do the things he really enjoys.

Edited by dereksurfs
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I'll give you yet another perspective from the fortune 500 tech company I work for as a senior software engineer on the hiring team. Our group cares very little about pedigree and much more about the work/internships done while in school. Experience is king in the industry. Pedigree and things like ABET mean less than relevant experiences. In fact, we hire other STEM majors such as math, physics, etc... with programming courses and good experience over someone without those experiences all the time.

 

I do realize some companies still target a limited group of schools or look for certs. But from what I've seen that is becoming less common and basically N/A once the software engineer has a couple years of experience under their belt. If they get that experience while in school its N/A right from the get go. Here's an example of how Google has evolved after their own research proved their hiring bias was wrong: http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/09/technology/google-people-laszlo-bock/index.html

 

AI and machine learning are such specialty areas that I would look more at which schools offer more of those courses and research opportunities. At the undergraduate level most standard CS programs will not go very into AI. The student may take a class or two just scraping the surface. So a student might want to augment their major with outside courses or a dual major/minor in cognitive science as Luuknam mentioned. Some schools might have a strong robotics program including an IA component. Schools have robotic competitions which can be really fun. I would look for a program which provides opportunities to feed his passion more than other factors including pedigree. Then the rest will works it way out as he gets to do the things he really enjoys.

This is very helpful, thanks! He is definitely interested in internships and it is a relief to know that that figures heavily into hiring decisions.

 

I know Purdue has a machine intelligence track within its CS program and IU has an artificial intelligence track, but I don't know how in depth either of them goes.

 

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This is very helpful, thanks! He is definitely interested in internships and it is a relief to know that that figures heavily into hiring decisions.

 

I know Purdue has a machine intelligence track within its CS program and IU has an artificial intelligence track, but I don't know how in depth either of them goes.

 

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After a quick search for best schools with AI programs I found this:

 

18. Purdue University

B.S. in Computer Science: Machine Intelligence Track

Undergraduate Program

How many schools do you know that offer a degree in Machine Intelligence Ă¢â‚¬â€œ for undergraduates?! If youĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ve heard of Purdue University, then you know at least one. This program, which is available as a concentration in the B.S. in Computer Science, offers coursework in artificial intelligence, data mining, machine learning, and robotics, among others. In fact, the variety of coursework available makes Purdue one of the best artificial intelligence schools for baccalaureate students. But thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not to say that graduate students canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t get in on the action. The universityĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s research area in Machine Learning and Information Retrieval offers interdisciplinary research opportunities that span the fields of cognitive science, economics, statistics, robotics, and even cybersecurity.

10. Indiana University B.S. in Intelligent Systems Engineering; M.S. in Human-Computer Interaction Design

 

Graduate Program

Undergraduate Program

Indiana University is the only school in this ranking to offer a full-fledged, standalone undergraduate degree in AI that is not simply a concentration within the general computer science program. The new BS in Intelligent Systems Engineering is Ă¢â‚¬Å“all about going small to make a big impactĂ¢â‚¬, which means that students focus on Ă¢â‚¬Å“small-scale, networked, and mobile technology.Ă¢â‚¬ Concentrations within this program include Bioengineering, Computer Engineering/Cyber-physical Systems, and Molecular and Nanoscale Engineering. As for grad students, the MS in HCI Design merges technology and creativity in a program thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s solution-oriented and project based. This graduate degree is also available as a track within the Ph.D. in Informatics and includes numerous research opportunities in artificial intelligence.

http://www.computersciencedegreehub.com/best/artificial-intelligence-engineering-schools/

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I think back in "the old days" IEEE and ACM did that. I was a "Member" of IEEE for many years.

 

Exactly. I went to the only ACM school in my state, and we had an ACM chapter. Now they're an ABET school, and have a joint computer science/computer engineering department in the School of Engineering. When I was there, it was in the School of Science along with math, physics, etc..

 

My graduate school and a school I recently interviewed for as a computer science advisor both have it in the School of Engineering.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OP here again with a new wrinkle :)

 

DS just got an email inviting him to interview at IU for a research scholarship which would be a full ride plus the opportunity to do research 10ish hours a week starting from day 1 freshman year. Only 40 invitations are sent out to interview for this scholarship and 20 will be selected.

 

If he would be offered this scholarship, does this change and/or add to anyone's opinions?

 

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Anything where they offer to flag him for personal attention is always a plus. If he's still considering the school he should go.

 

ETA- I mean he should go to the scholarship interview! ....And maybe the school if he likes what he sees and they offer him a spot in the program

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OP here again with a new wrinkle :)

 

DS just got an email inviting him to interview at IU for a research scholarship which would be a full ride plus the opportunity to do research 10ish hours a week starting from day 1 freshman year. Only 40 invitations are sent out to interview for this scholarship and 20 will be selected.

 

If he would be offered this scholarship, does this change and/or add to anyone's opinions?

 

Go for it - if he gets it - IU wins!!

 

good luck

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Anything where they offer to flag him for personal attention is always a plus. If he's still considering the school he should go.

 

ETA- I mean he should go to the scholarship interview! ....And maybe the school if he likes what he sees and they offer him a spot in the program

Oh, he's definitely doing the interview! I told him to go for it, give it all he's got, and see what happens.

 

But he's kind of in a quandary now because he had kind of almost 100% decided on Purdue ... and this makes him go back to the starting point in a way.

 

It's hard to see him struggle through his first "big grown up decision" but also encouraging to see his thought process and how logically he's approaching it and I know it will be rewarding to see him "own" it once it's finally made.

 

Very different from the other end of my parenting spectrum where I make almost all the decisions for my 5 year old. Oh, how many hats I wear in a day!!! [emoji4]

 

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OP here again with a new wrinkle :)

 

DS just got an email inviting him to interview at IU for a research scholarship which would be a full ride plus the opportunity to do research 10ish hours a week starting from day 1 freshman year. Only 40 invitations are sent out to interview for this scholarship and 20 will be selected.

 

If he would be offered this scholarship, does this change and/or add to anyone's opinions?

 

 

Yes, this would make me strongly lean IU. And I was leaning Purdue earlier in the thread. But, full ride + research from day 1 vs full pay... (and if I were planning on paying for the full pay before, I'd tell the kid I'll give them some of the saved money later for downpayment/grad school/etc)

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"But he's kind of in a quandary now because he had kind of almost 100% decided on Purdue ... and this makes him go back to the starting point in a way."

 

Congrats to your son. My advice would be not to even think about it until after the scholarship interview.

 

It is a good problem. There is not a wrong choice .... I am assuming he would be able to afford Purdue with minimum loans and/or research job/I. I also assume he will be able to do undergrad research at either school.

 

He will be able to get a CS job no matter which school he graduates from. There is no way to know which job will lead to a better paying job.

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