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Is it rude for students to draw in a large class?


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So let me say from the start I’m fairly old-school with regards to respect. My dd has gotten complaints from two of her teachers about drawing in class.

 

She’s in a frustrating situation though, in which she is one of the only ones doing the homework and therefore participating. So the teacher spends half the class re-teaching the entire unit rather than drawing the students into using the material, which she then does in the second half

Of the (hour and a half) long class.

 

So the teacher asked my dd to back off, allowing her to figure out wheat the other students did or didn’t do.

 

So my dd started drawing during that portion of the class. She is an auditory learner and is still listening. The teacher suggested a rubbing stone to keep her busy lol. She’s a sweet kind teacher and handling the class pretty well.

 

Should my dd just clue in that teachers feel drawing is rude? I don’t want her to build habits now that will hurt her later in college.

 

And, we love our committed co-op teachers and desire to show them respect. ...

 

thoughs?

 

Hmm I just asked my son and he says In all the syllabuses he has, the teachers make it very clear that they will get class participation points knocked Off if they’re doing anything but taking notes, looking at the board or the teacher.

 

So I guess that answers that!

Edited by Calming Tea
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I don't think it's rude to do something else while people are making up time. On the contrary, the other students should apologize and the teacher should thank the kids who did the work on time for their patience.

 

I would make sure that your DD does it unobtrusively, and checks in with the teacher by e-mail to let the teacher know that she enjoys the lectures but may draw to relax during the homework sessions when she's already done the homework. She should also have the materials, completed, on her desk while she draws, so that other students realize why she has the privilege of not following along.

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Hmm I just asked my son and he says In all the syllabuses he has, the teachers make it very clear that they will get class participation points knocked Off if they’re doing anything but taking notes, looking at the board or the teacher.

 

Wow, that is micromanaging. I have never seen a college syllabus that stated anything like this. College instructors often have rules about using electronics, but telling adults were to look and whether to doodle or not? That is ludicrous.

 

This said, having students draw in class so that it's visible (in a large lecture hall, the instructor has no clue what the students past the fourth row do on their paper) does come across as annoying because it appears to send the message "you are not telling me anything I don't already know and I do not need to write anything down". Which sadly seems to be the case in the class in which your DD is currently in; that teacher should just accept it, since she is not teaching anything to prepared students. 

So, if I had a student in my class whom I noticed drawing instead of taking notes, I would not say anything if that were a good student; however, if the student was not performing well, I would call him out and recommend taking notes instead. I don't recall that ever happened, though; the students who don't want to take notes usually don't come to class.

Edited by regentrude
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I agree with Tsuga but if after the teacher knows why and if she still doesn't want her to draw (for whatever reason). She should stop out of respect for the teacher.

 

I grew up in ps and I remember lots of kids doodling. Some teachers didn't care others did.

 

I would doodle myself. I did it in business meetings, discreetly, of course.

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I don't see the big deal especially in your dd's situation.  She doesn't need to be paying attention because she actually did the work.  She's still listening so she'll know if something comes up that she does need to participate in.

 

My quirky son does much better in classes if he's allowed to draw or doodle.  So far we haven't had any teachers that mind and it's come up mostly in Sunday School and gifted program classes at a university.  Honestly, if a teacher had a real problem with it despite it not being disruptive, he probably would no longer be able to take the class.  Taking away his doodling WILL make him disruptive to the class.  The doodling is what he does to help control his less appropriate impulses.

 

I was always a big doodler too.  I would take notes then doodle in the margins while waiting for whatever else I needed to write.  I was still able to follow along with the class and know what was being discussed.

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Doodling can be a focusing strategy for some and a serious distraction for others. In meetings I am constantly drawing/doodling -- and I"m not even a very good artist. But I find myself more connected to the lesson so I don't worry about it. 

 

As far as college, I have never seen anything in a syllabus about students drawing/doodlling. As a matter of fact with the prevalence of tablets, phones, etc. I think that many professors have much bigger distractions (watching movies, etc.) than doodling. 

 

If the teacher will not tolerate the drawing, yes your daughter needs to switch activities. 

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My DS13 doodles in every outsourced class. However he stops if whoever is sitting next to him is looking at his doodles instead of paying attention to the teacher.

When he was in B&M public school, his teachers let him doodle by pretending not to see since it was less distracting than talking to a classmate. I have heard parents complained about their kids being distracted by what other kids are doing while at the K-3rd grade pickup area so I can understand why teachers can’t outright permit doodling.

 

ETA:

I understand it’s frustrating though for your daughter. My kids hate class participation points.

Edited by Arcadia
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I’d push the teacher to allow her to draw if she’s doing well and not disrupting anyone. I think it’s absolutely stupid to penalize your daughter by making her sit and do essentially nothing because she bothered to do the work at home. Maybe it’s disrespectful if the teacher has asked her not to, but I think the class and teacher are being disrespectful to your daughter by wasting her time (and presumably your money/time).

 

If drawing isn’t acceptable, maybe DD just needs to stop doing the work at home. Why spend her time learning it twice?

Edited by happypamama
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Ok, so...wait.....the teacher TOLD her to stop participating in class.....and now wants to take class participation points if your kid draws instead of using "a rubbing stone?"  Is that right?

 

 

:iagree:

 

Being the type of student I am, I would probably sit and figure out at that point if it was worth losing class participation points to do the homework at home like I was suppose to. Or if it would be better use of my time and energy to just not do the homework at home and do it with the rest of the class during the next class time to get the class participation points.

 

In my experience, college professors don't care what you do during class so long as you are not disrupting the class. They have already been paid or are guaranteed to be paid whether you learn the material or not. Their job is to teach the class, it is the student's responsibility to make sure they learn the material.

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Ok, so...wait.....the teacher TOLD her to stop participating in class.....and now wants to take class participation points if your kid draws instead of using "a rubbing stone?"  Is that right?

 

 

I think she was referring to two different situations.  It was her son who said he would loose participation points, not her daughter.

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1. I think these teachers would have better results if they stopped reteaching. Seriously. Alternatively, they can stop assigning preview homework.

 

2. As mentioned, many people focus better when doodling, fidgeting, or otherwise "stimming".

 

3. College is for adults. I've never heard of a college professor micromanaging like that.

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Ok, so...wait.....the teacher TOLD her to stop participating in class.....and now wants to take class participation points if your kid draws instead of using "a rubbing stone?" Is that right?

 

No, the teacher does not want to take class participation points away from her. She really likes my daughter and is so thankful at least someone comes prepared every week! She just finds it distracting and confusing.

 

It’s the college teachers that explained that students zoning out with a book or electronics who would take away class participation points.

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I can barely even think without doodling in a class. I doodled my way through all levels including graduate school and graduated at the top of my class at every level. I don’t think any teacher noticed it, or at least didn’t say anything about it.

 

It did bother my husband when we sat beside each other in seminars after graduation because he thought I wasn’t paying attention. I think I convinced him that I couldn’t pay attention without doodling.

 

If a teacher mentioned it to me It bothered her, I would want to comply with her request. I’m a naturally compliant person in those types of situations. It would negatively affect my ability to pay attention though.

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Is she pulling out an entire box of colored pencils or something? Because like others said, often teachers don't even notice if you're drawing or taking notes or w/e. 

 

Also, yes, in college sometimes teachers will deduct participation points if you're not participating... but, that's not what's going on here. She was participating, but has been asked not to. Odds are that in college she'll participate too, unless asked not to. I haven't encountered a prof asking someone to not participate; at most to maybe scale it down somewhat. And never noticed one have an issue with someone drawing so long as they also answered questions etc when asked.

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I doodled all through my semester of econ in high school. Guess what - as a senior in college taking my last GE (Econ) everything (including my doodles) came back to me - aced the class. It can be very beneficial for some. It is not interrupting the teacher or distracting other kids, she isn't missing anything - the teacher should back off! As far as habits for college, what professor is going to come ask you to stop doodling???

 

I would talk to the teacher again. If she remains immovable then ask dd to stop. But really it is silly for the teacher to take offense at doodling. 🙄

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I think when a teacher tells a kid NOT to participate.......then as long as the kid is quite, whatever the kid is doing isn't rude.  Regardless if that's drawing or reading or writing stories or whatever. 

 

This. Not rude since the teacher told her not to participate. BUT, she really should still be (at least half) listening during the session, looking up every so often, while doodling.

 

You never know when the teacher is going to mention some new point, something she forgot to tell them in the previous class, tell an interesting story, provide a cool new memory trick, etc. 

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But the teachers (I assume these are teachers for the class that she is drawing in) did complain about her drawing in class.

 

It doesn't sound fair to me, being that the only reason for this portion of class in which she is doodling is for the benefit of the students that didn't do what they were supposed to do, while she did do the work. 

 

Maybe she needs to do some covert drawing or smaller scale doodling rather than create masterpieces during the class. Or stop doing the work before class.

 

Or learn to scale back the Hermione personality? I'm just assuming that that might also be what's going on, since that was me as a student, lol, it took a lot of time to figure out how to read the room and let other people have a turn even though nobody else seemed to want to raise their hand. I had too many teachers have to ask me to just stop raising my hand for a while. 

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Ok, well I have a fine arts degree so maybe my experience isn't typical in college but even in my gen ed classes, I've never seen a teacher gets worked up about doodling or drawing during class. For that matter, I never encountered a professor that would punish you if you were on your phone, or your computer, reading a book, taking a nap. You passed the test, got the project done, wrote the paper, etc. and that was what you were graded on. Some took attendance. Some classes had discussion times, and you needed to participate in those. Art/design classes had critique days, and participation meant a lot during those. I mean, I assume she's just got a pencil and a book right, and isn't pulling out an easel and charcoal sticks. ;) Personally, I think the teacher needs to get over it. Rub stones together? That seems like such a disrespectful suggestion. "I think so little of your mind and attention, I'm going to suggest something utterly pointless that'll hopefully keep you happy."

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Doodiling is fine. Straight up artwork - no. (and, yes this happens) However, it can be distracting to others. If she uses just a pencil that is fine, but if she switches colors, etc.. no.  

 

My philosophy is that if kids do not want to take notes, I cannot make them. 

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I think it's actually the teacher who is being rude.

 

ETA: Assuming we're not talking about a tray of art supplies here, that is. But even if that's the case, the teacher should address that, not "no drawing at all." I mean, she asked her not to participate! She knows she's a good student! Drawing/doodling is a time honored tradition with a ton of research to show that it can be focusing.

Edited by Farrar
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It’s the college teachers that explained that students zoning out with a book or electronics who would take away class participation points.

 

That is a very different statement from what you first wrote 

 

 

the syllabuses he has, the teachers make it very clear that they will get class participation points knocked Off if they’re doing anything but taking notes, looking at the board or the teacher.

 

A student who is reading a book or playing on his electronic devices during class is not participating.

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My elementary teachers were resentful that I could complete in class assignments and tests in moments, compared to the average speed of the class.

 

They thought it was unfair for me to write, draw, or even read, while waiting for the next activity, while the other kids had to work! As if I had not just done the work...? I would be punished for sneaking a book into my desk for those times.

 

This was repeated by some junior high and high school teachers. I was literally expected to just sit there. I used to stare out the window, if I could see a window, for thirty to forty minutes at a time, through days, weeks, years...

 

There is ZERO chance I would tolerate a "sit and stare" policy in a homeschool coop setting, no matter how nice the teacher's mannerisms are or how much she claims to love my child.

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I've always doodled in the margins. I've recently started to try to memorize different speeches, poems, etc., and so now I try to write them from memory when I'm in class. It keeps my brain occupied until the next thing I need to write down gets brought up by the prof and it looks like I'm taking wonderful notes.

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I don't have any large classes. I have small co-op classes. But I have several kids that like to draw, and I have to treat it like a phone- not allowed. This is because they show each other their pictures or look over at them and point or whisper and otherwise distract each other.

This is different, IMO, than doodling. The sharing and the talking is what is disruptive, not the drawing itself.
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Doodiling is fine. Straight up artwork - no. (and, yes this happens) However, it can be distracting to others. If she uses just a pencil that is fine, but if she switches colors, etc.. no.

 

My philosophy is that if kids do not want to take notes, I cannot make them.

So true! You could attach notetaking to the grade, but what a pain on the teacher's end. And I feel sorry for all those who have commented on college professors requiring note-taking and giving (or taking away) participation points!! I did not *ever* have professors require anything (but general politeness) beyond assignments and assessments. Conversation, taking notes, participating in class, etc were all up to the student, and the proof was in the pudding so to speak. If you didn't participate you likely wouldn't do as well on assignments and assessments - so be it. That correlation should be self-correcting by college, and my professors weren't going to coddle or coerce their students into learning. That correlation should be self-correcting in high school!
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This is different, IMO, than doodling. The sharing and the talking is what is disruptive, not the drawing itself.

 

I agree. I mean, anything can become distracting if a student is intent on being distracting. Trust me. I've taught middle school. I've seen kids turn twirling their hair and breathing into distracting activities when they felt like it. I'm not going to ban breathing. And I've seen kids turn taking notes, using their computers to write the assignment, and doing math problems for the class into distractions too. There's a line somewhere where if a particular behavior gets too bad, you have to ban it for everyone. But banning anything but looking at the teacher or writing down her words into notes (which is the rule this teacher wants to float). Um, no.

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OK, so I talked to my dd and she says since this is after all an ASL class and the entire class is pretty much SILENT, it could be quite possible that she could really miss something by doodling.  She thinks she should respect the teacher by not doodling so much, but I told her I'd be checking in to see that the teacher allows her to participate instead of waiting and waiting and waiitng silently while the teacher "draws out" the other students.

 

Reg- as far as the college classes, the teachers don't seem to be micromanaging, they are just warning students that, LOOK if you don't wan to participate, that's your business but you will lose CLass Participation points which is a very easy way to bring up your grade! Doodling is not specifically mentioned but it says, basically engaging with the material, students, and other material, free from distracitons not associated with the teacher, class and material.  something to that effect. My son loves it....he loves it that in college the teachers don't bother to "draw out" students that don't want to participate.  The entire class is more fun, the kids that don't care or dont' want to participate sit in the back, and the ones who do, generally sit in the front and the ones who want to answer or need help, raise their hands and the ones who don't are silent and no one gives a flying fig about "making" people participate.  :)  He loves it.  OBviously in math he's still always bored.  He's hoping in Calculus for STEM majors, that all the non-math-able people will be gone LOL....since they make the class so slow and boring.  BUT other than that he loves the way the classes move and it's much better than high school/co-op for him.  I suspect my dd will have the same feelings about it.

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Since it is ASL, could she imitate what the teacher is saying (in small movements) to practice?

I mean, yes, they do this....when learning new material, or practicing difficult semi-new material....but the teacher spends about 20 minutes just having all the students spell their names....none of the students want to do this, so they just sit there, staring, and bored....the teacher signs, "HI I'm ......., what is your name? and waits for students to raise their hands...what she should do it is just spell "Hi I'm Mrs...... and then POINT to a student rather than sitting there waiting...

 

Anyway yes there are multiple ways to engage and stay interested.  Hopefully next year some of the less interested kids will drop out and not take ASL 2. :)

 

My dd still loves this class and has learned a lot. She has met up with the mall and the teacher to participate in the Deaf Community group hangout and they were very patient and kind to her, evne though her vocab was so limited.  It has, overall, been a wonderful experience.  My desire is not to pick on this teacher and class, but to find a more permanent understanding for the entire doodling issue.

 

You guys, as usual, have been AWESOME as far as helping me to figure out how to talk to my dd about not only this class, but doodling in general :) I also plan to show my dd some Visual Note Taking ideas online or even get her a book so she can work in the drawing with the doodling a little more (for the future, she really doesn't need any notes for this class) :)

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OK, so I talked to my dd and she says since this is after all an ASL class and the entire class is pretty much SILENT, it could be quite possible that she could really miss something by doodling. She thinks she should respect the teacher by not doodling so much, but I told her I'd be checking in to see that the teacher allows her to participate instead of waiting and waiting and waiitng silently while the teacher "draws out" the other students.

 

Reg- as far as the college classes, the teachers don't seem to be micromanaging, they are just warning students that, LOOK if you don't wan to participate, that's your business but you will lose CLass Participation points which is a very easy way to bring up your grade! Doodling is not specifically mentioned but it says, basically engaging with the material, students, and other material, free from distracitons not associated with the teacher, class and material. something to that effect. My son loves it....he loves it that in college the teachers don't bother to "draw out" students that don't want to participate. The entire class is more fun, the kids that don't care or dont' want to participate sit in the back, and the ones who do, generally sit in the front and the ones who want to answer or need help, raise their hands and the ones who don't are silent and no one gives a flying fig about "making" people participate. :) He loves it. OBviously in math he's still always bored. He's hoping in Calculus for STEM majors, that all the non-math-able people will be gone LOL....since they make the class so slow and boring. BUT other than that he loves the way the classes move and it's much better than high school/co-op for him. I suspect my dd will have the same feelings about it.

To the first bolder part I think this piece of info is germane to the conversation. I can better understand the teacher.

 

To the second bolder part, I am glad your son enjoys it (I imagine he would even without participation points) and a prof can set up the class as seen fit, but this bothers me. Grades aren't supposed to reflect EFFORT, especially in college. They should be a standard of competency, which for many is irrespective of certain types of efforts (think learning styles, innate facility with certain topics/ways of thinking, previous coursework, etc). Also, the age of carrots should end long before college - students who WANT to do well and CHOOSE to study and engage with a class or material they way that helps them do well should and will succeed. Students who *need* carrots to coax them along in the academic pursuit *they chose and are paying for* should probably rethink their choices. What are we doing to the value of a college education if we hand hold kids through learning and pad grades with participation points?

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A kid coloring would bother me if they were disruptive about it like chattering about it while doing it or if it did get in their way of focusing because they were focused on that and not what is being said. If they could color and focus on what was said or it helped them focus then There is no problem with it. So I see no problem with what you are describing especially since she listens well while coloring and it is during the portion of class where your dd knows the info already because she did her homework and knows the lesson the teacher is going over.

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Language classes do require people to take turns speaking.  And the other students are supposed to be listening (or watching in the case of ASL) because that is of benefit to them as well.  I assume that the teacher wants her eyes on the others because unlike other classes she can't listen and draw at the same time.  (This is why I was a designated note taker for deaf students in college.  They could not watch the translator and take notes at the same time.)  She suggested the stones because she's trying to accommodate fidgeting while still requiring her participation in reading other student's signs. 

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OK, so I talked to my dd and she says since this is after all an ASL class and the entire class is pretty much SILENT, it could be quite possible that she could really miss something by doodling.  She thinks she should respect the teacher by not doodling so much, but I told her I'd be checking in to see that the teacher allows her to participate instead of waiting and waiting and waiitng silently while the teacher "draws out" the other students.

 

Doodling in ASL class is rude. It's like sitting there with your fingers in your ears, eyes closed, muttering "lalalalala."

 

Beginners classes may be horrifically dull, but she should watch anyway because it is practice for receptive skills. I also think the teacher should move a bit faster, since she (?) has taught the students not to bother doing their homework and that shouldn't be her problem any more than your daughter's.

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Doodling in ASL class is rude. It's like sitting there with your fingers in your ears, eyes closed, muttering "lalalalala."

 

Beginners classes may be horrifically dull, but she should watch anyway because it is practice for receptive skills. I also think the teacher should move a bit faster, since she (?) has taught the students not to bother doing their homework and that shouldn't be her problem any more than your daughter's.

 

Yes. Your daughter may be an auditory learner, but in this particular context, maybe it would be good to challenge herself with what she could do if unable to invoke that privilege?

 

With that said, if the teacher has asked her to limit her participating by not signing, I'd fight for her. Esp. if the stone suggestion was to tie up her hands and your daughter was using doodling so that she wouldn't be tempted to "speak" using ASL. I'd get my kid out of any language class that asked them not to practice the target language, since the whole reason I sign them up is to get them speaking. (And I recognize this is a problem in some language classes-- some kids are shy, some are more enthusiastic and study more, but that second group can also be helpful to the learning of the first, and to creating an environment in which everybody is willing to experiment, join in, and look silly sometimes.)

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To the first bolder part I think this piece of info is germane to the conversation. I can better understand the teacher.

 

To the second bolder part, I am glad your son enjoys it (I imagine he would even without participation points) and a prof can set up the class as seen fit, but this bothers me. Grades aren't supposed to reflect EFFORT, especially in college. They should be a standard of competency, which for many is irrespective of certain types of efforts (think learning styles, innate facility with certain topics/ways of thinking, previous coursework, etc). Also, the age of carrots should end long before college - students who WANT to do well and CHOOSE to study and engage with a class or material they way that helps them do well should and will succeed. Students who *need* carrots to coax them along in the academic pursuit *they chose and are paying for* should probably rethink their choices. What are we doing to the value of a college education if we hand hold kids through learning and pad grades with participation points?

IDK? Not really my issue or my problem :) Luckily my kids always participate AND they always read the material, digest it and study it. :) So, not my issue.

 

It could be my issue of course if my dd doesn’t learn to read the teacher and look and act participatory :) but as far as whether it’s right or wrong Idk. They had some pretty stupid group projects which were completely about effort rather than output in freshman English soo.. maybe it’s a theme here and there :)

 

That said, it seems to me the teacher's aren't so much dangling carrots as they are rewarding those who choose to participate.

Edited by Calming Tea
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I actually suggested letting my child draw once when his teacher was having trouble with him getting distracted.  I told him if his hands are busy his brain will be free, and the drawing will keep his mind from wandering.  

 

Since it's in the syllabus, maybe your daughter can ask if she can draw her notes.  I've actually drawn notes in a college class before, and actually remembered things better that way.  If the drawing is related to the class topic it might be more acceptable.

 

 

So let me say from the start I’m fairly old-school with regards to respect. My dd has gotten complaints from two of her teachers about drawing in class.

She’s in a frustrating situation though, in which she is one of the only ones doing the homework and therefore participating. So the teacher spends half the class re-teaching the entire unit rather than drawing the students into using the material, which she then does in the second half
Of the (hour and a half) long class.

So the teacher asked my dd to back off, allowing her to figure out wheat the other students did or didn’t do.

So my dd started drawing during that portion of the class. She is an auditory learner and is still listening. The teacher suggested a rubbing stone to keep her busy lol. She’s a sweet kind teacher and handling the class pretty well.

Should my dd just clue in that teachers feel drawing is rude? I don’t want her to build habits now that will hurt her later in college.

And, we love our committed co-op teachers and desire to show them respect. ...

thoughs?

Hmm I just asked my son and he says In all the syllabuses he has, the teachers make it very clear that they will get class participation points knocked Off if they’re doing anything but taking notes, looking at the board or the teacher.

So I guess that answers that!

 

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It's rude if the teacher says it's rude.

 

But I can relate.  I always zoned out because of all the review.  I think it's a lot to ask kids to act like they're hanging on a teacher's every word when they already know the stuff.  That said, I always got in trouble for daydreaming as a kid.  :P

 

A compromise that worked for me through college (and even in the boardroom) is to keep a notebook for "note taking" and doodle in the margins.

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It's rude if the teacher says it's rude.

 

But I can relate. I always zoned out because of all the review. I think it's a lot to ask kids to act like they're hanging on a teacher's every word when they already know the stuff. That said, I always got in trouble for daydreaming as a kid. :P

 

A compromise that worked for me through college (and even in the boardroom) is to keep a notebook for "note taking" and doodle in the margins.

What????
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Yeah, if the teacher has a rule against doing xyz in her class, assuming xyz is not necessary to life or health, then it's rude to do it.

 

I agree with violating a rule as rude. I don't agree with the teacher *thinking* it is rude therefore it is rude. I can completely understand in an ASL class that otherwise occupying your hands is quite rude, however the teacher had ask the student to NOT participate and it seems like just took offense from the student's choice of what to do while not participating. Breaking a rule, rude. Teacher taking offense from student who thought she was following teacher's directions, not rude.
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