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#51 Southern Ivy

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 09:53 PM

I remember that, it definitely isn’t accurate. Just consider it a baseline for how ADHD meds and the filter work. Really! It’s not her IQ.

It’s not even supposedly her number, because nobody thought it was a valid representation of her ability.

Right - I mean, I KNOW it's not her IQ and the neuropsych said it was more than likely not accurate, but she still put it there. It bothers me, even though I know it's ridiculously inaccurate. lol It's like sand in my shoe, just irritates.  :lol:


Edited by Southern Ivy, 08 February 2018 - 10:04 PM.

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#52 Crimson Wife

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:09 AM

 
IQ was supposedly 76. Which is BS. There's no freaking way she's a 76. We actually just debating whether or not to take her back for a reevaluation. (We were told to bring her back when she's on meds for a year which is in May, but I'm not going back to that neuropsych.) 

 

If this was a standard IQ test like the Weschler or the Stanford-Binet, it's almost certainly a major underestimate. The "non-verbal" portions of standard IQ tests are still heavily dependent on receptive language skills. Any child with moderate-to-severe CAPD is going to have receptive language difficulties, and therefore underperform on the standard IQ tests.

 

My daughter had almost a two standard deviation difference between the "non-verbal" portion of the WPPSI and the totally non-verbal Leiter. Her lowest subtest on the Leiter was higher than the highest subtest on the WPPSI.


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#53 Southern Ivy

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 08:39 AM

If this was a standard IQ test like the Weschler or the Stanford-Binet, it's almost certainly a major underestimate. The "non-verbal" portions of standard IQ tests are still heavily dependent on receptive language skills. Any child with moderate-to-severe CAPD is going to have receptive language difficulties, and therefore underperform on the standard IQ tests.

 

My daughter had almost a two standard deviation difference between the "non-verbal" portion of the WPPSI and the totally non-verbal Leiter. Her lowest subtest on the Leiter was higher than the highest subtest on the WPPSI.

 

Yes, it was the Weschler Preschool and Primary. Strangely enough, her receptive language, based on the CELF-5, were within normal limits. 

I think I need to do the re-eval just for my own sanity. :)
I'll try to go in August. Give her more time with the filter and time to catch up somewhat before pursuing more testing. 



#54 PeterPan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 08:58 AM

You might be patient. Is she newly 6 in August? I get that it irks you, and I think it's problematic because it has this psychological effect of changing expectations. My only point is let her language catch up. Let it REALLY catch up. Does she have retained reflexes? Get those integrated, get her filters, get her speech therapy, and wait till you have a moment of wow, I think I'm really seeing who she is now. When you have that, THEN schedule the fresh evals.

 

I think you'll know when that happens. I've had it with ds. We have times where it's obvious we're not seeing all that is inside, and we have times when we've had a bump or jump and it's clear for a while they're we're getting more of a glimpse of what is inside. I would be very patient on this, because you have this gap where you have to wait to re-run it. 

 

The other way to think through it is to ask whether fresh psych evals would give you more info besides an IQ number. They might, sure. I'm just saying it's another way to think through it and think through the timing. Like wait for a need, wait till you have new questions you need answered. I just think you have such an earth-shattering, jet fuel pack, wow kinda change about to happen that it's really hard to say ok, now we're seeing where she is. I think she's going to unfold. You could also ask your people in Colorado how long it takes to see that full effect of unfolding and progress in language, etc. 

 

And yeah, the CELF is a funky tool. They don't norm speech or consider discrepancy with IQ, and yet it's totally reasonable (to my pea brain, to many people's brains) that kids with a higher IQ need higher language skills to do the advanced work their brains are trying to do. Ie. her set point, where her brain is trying to get to, may be higher than norms. I've hit that issue over and over with my ds, because you'll have one professional saying oh look, discrepancy in academics, and another person saying the "average" and low average language scores didn't matter, even though it's terribly obvious that a gifted child with 20th percentile language scores cannot POSSIBLY do gifted level work. You can't read and comprehend at IQ level if you can't understand the language. But, hello, nobody is allowed to say that, even though it's obvious.

 

So be patient, ride it out, watch the changes. I think this is super cool. I mean, I just can't even imagine how she could blossom over the next 6 months to a year going from 50% input to 90%. That is just ASTONISHING. Think about that. She's gonna BLOW YOUR MIND. Journal it. Write down where she is now on a lot of parameters. You could start a blog. Or don't blog, just draw lines in the sand for function on a lot of life skills. Write it out so you can see the change. With my ds, change happens so subtly that we get to someplace a year later and we're like wow, how did that happen?

 

When do they come? Do you have to go back to get them installed?


Edited by PeterPan, 09 February 2018 - 09:03 AM.

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#55 geodob

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:02 AM

APD is a generic term, for a range of different auditory processing disorders.
So that is just a general term, which creates some confusion.
 
But as for any conjecture about the Filter?  I found the patent application for it:
 
Apparatus and methods for mitigating impairments due to central auditory nervous system binaural phase-time asynchrony
Publication number: 20060215845
Abstract: Pathological binaural phase time delay (PBTD) asynchrony is measured at a variety of frequencies and speech stimuli to develop a BPTD profile for a subject. A corrective device (600, 1000) is designed to apply clinical PBTD to compensate for the subject's pathological BPTD. An electronic device (500) is used to measure the subject's ability to comprehend words at a variety of relative time delays between ears to estimate the ideal overall relative time delay. The optimal relative phase shift at a variety of frequencies is also measured. An electronic device (600) may be used to correct the pathological BPTD by delaying sound in different frequency bands differently to the target ear, according to the BPTD profile, or a passive filtered earplug (1000) may be used to correct smaller amounts of BPTD.
Type: Application
Filed: May 31, 2006
Publication date: September 28, 2006
Inventors: Joan Burleigh, Michael Thompson, Susan James
 
Binaural phase time delay asynchrony, has long been established as a major factor in APD.   
{which basically means that the signal from one ear, takes longer than the other.)
 
What they have developed, is a scientific approach.
Which firstly involves precisely identifying the 'time delay' for an individual.
Then they have developed Filters, which cause a precise time delay. So that the brain recieves the signal from both ears at the same time.
But they have further identified that this time delay, can be limited to certain frequencies.
So that the Filter can be made, to only delay the related frequencies.
 
Their is no controversy or conjecture about this, as is it scientifically verifiable.

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#56 PeterPan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:05 AM

Fascinating. So if this ear filter is fixing the asynchrony, what do HAs do when they use them for APD?

 

And then as a total aside, how does binaural phase time delay explain issues with background noise? 

 

Or, put another way, do the filters help with background noise issues and how/why?


Edited by PeterPan, 09 February 2018 - 09:12 AM.


#57 PeterPan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:11 AM

http://asa.scitation....1121/1.4933833

 

So can something like this explain why my dd complains that sounds are too loud?



#58 Southern Ivy

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:31 AM

You might be patient. Is she newly 6 in August?
Does she have retained reflexes? 

You could also ask your people in Colorado how long it takes to see that full effect of unfolding and progress in language, etc. 

When do they come? Do you have to go back to get them installed?

 

She'll be 6 at the end of April. Our yearly re-eval should have been at the end of May, but I'm going to push it out. 
The only retained reflex she was shown to have was ATNR. We've been on an OT break. We're switching over to the OTs at our speech clinic. I honestly don't see a huge difference with her in or out of OT.  :huh: At lot of what they were doing was supposedly to help her learn to focus, but that may not be an issue now. 

I did talk to Dr. Locke, since we had all discussed the possibility of dyslexia. I know APD and dyslexia can run hand in hand (Barton even says APD IS dyslexia.) Dr. Locke said to give it a few months as well. She said we've taken ADHD off the table with meds. We're taking APD off the table with the filter. A few months will let her show what she can do when those two things are handled. 

Are you asking when the filters come in? Our appointment was Feb 5. It takes 3 weeks to get them, so assuming they started making it on Feb 6, we should definitely have it by March 1, I would think.  Sometimes, there needs to be some tweaks or adjustments and you send it back. But hopefully, it's perfect from the get-go. 

As for installing? You just put it in yourself. 


 

 

APD is a generic term, for a range of different auditory processing disorders.
So that is just a general term, which creates some confusion.
 
But as for any conjecture about the Filter?  I found the patent application for it:
 
Their is no controversy or conjecture about this, as is it scientifically verifiable.

 

 

Geodob - you're my hero. I was looking for it, but doing a craptastic job! 
 

Fascinating. So if this ear filter is fixing the asynchrony, what do HAs do when they use them for APD?

 

And then as a total aside, how does binaural phase time delay explain issues with background noise? 

 

Or, put another way, do the filters help with background noise issues and how/why?

HAs? 

The filters do help with background noise in that with the timing delay and whatever else they do with it, it makes it so it's not as loud. I think since you're not hearing EVERYTHING pretty much 2xs (since you hear it faster in one ear and slower in another), it's easier for your brain to handle the input. 
Just my conjecture. I'm obviously not skilled at explaining how I understand it. :) Still learning. 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 09 February 2018 - 09:41 AM.

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#59 PeterPan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:14 AM

I'm reading through some FB threads and it looks like people are saying the background/high frequency filtering is the overall effect of the material and the timing is adjusted by a small *hole* in the filter.

 

Yup, figured that out about the installation.

 

Your Dr. Locke's analysis seems spot on! People on one of the FB groups were asking about the TAPS3. It's half phonological processing, stuff a dyslexic would struggle with. Ok, I'll throw this out for you. With my ds, we kicked butt with intervention, doing LIPS and Barton, blah blah. You drop aggressive work on it for a number of months, and boom he's right back to where he started. Like he hasn't forgotten the rules and he can read, but the actual phonological processing goes right back to crunchy crazy, really rough. I think that's pretty common for a dyslexic profile.

 

So I think you could go ahead with your intervention, see how far she's able to get with LIPS plus the filter (and yes, I would use LIPS), get her reading, and then maybe have a nice normal summer break, fall break, and see what happens, see whether she regresses. Or you may notice it immediately, that even with a week or two off she regresses significantly. That regression will be a big clue. 


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#60 geodob

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 08:56 AM

With filtering out background noise. Their is actually no way to separate background noise from other sound.

What can be filtered out, are specific frequency ranges. With higher frequencies the common ones to be filtered.

But this will filter all higher frequencies, not just those in the background.

 

Though 7 to 8 years ago, I conducted some research into 'background noise'. With a group of adults and children with APD.

Where my hypothesis was, that a cause of difficulty with background noise?   

Is the inability to 'localise sound'. To identify where a sound is coming from?

 

That hearing can be focused, in a similar way to vision.  Which enables us to separate background noise, from what we are trying to listen.

I first tested the group, and found that most were unable to point in the direction of a sound. When their eyes were closed.

For the ones that had this difficulty. I had them do some exercises to help develop this ability.

Which improved for the majority of them.

They then did exercises, where they sat with a TV on one side, and a Radio on the other side.

They then practised, shifting the focus of their hearing, from one to the other.

It had people talking on both sides, so that they tried to follow what was being said on one side.  Then to the other side?

Which most of them were able to do, after practising for a while.

 

With the ones that were successful with this.  They then did exercises in noisy environments, such as shopping malls, bars and restaurants.  Where they practised focusing their hearing on someone speaking, in this noisy situation?

Previously, this had been impossible for them.  But with practice, they found that they were able to follow the conversation.  As the background noise, had moved into the background.

 

But Peter Pans above link to the article: 'Effects of phase difference on the binaural perceiving intensity'.

Directly relates to this.  As it shows the practical effect on hearing,  when their is a 'phase time delay' with one ear.

How it effects the ability to localise sound. 


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#61 PeterPan

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 09:50 AM

See I remember you talking about localizing sound, but I don't think I quite understood the rest. Now it makes more sense. I don't suppose you have any data on phase time delay changes in kids who have done the localization work...

 

So basically it's counter-intuitive and we need to take our kids to the mall and eat out and talk with them more...


Edited by PeterPan, 10 February 2018 - 09:51 AM.


#62 geodob

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:24 AM

PeterPan, you asked if their is any data on phase time delay changes?

But it wouldn't have any effect on the phase time delay.

Rather, by directly practising sound localisation.  It can help them to develop a way to localise sound, that takes the phase time delay into account. 

 

Though going directly to malls wont help.

It requires a graduated process, beginning with single sounds. Then adding a second sound, and working towards multiple competing sounds.


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#63 PeterPan

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:39 AM

Ahh. Is there a way to improve phase time delay? And did these test subjects also have fatigue, headaches, etc. with the noise exposure and with trying to filter voice from background? Did those symptoms improve with the improved ability to localize in the noisy environment? You would think it would, but I wondered if the people had those symptoms and if they improved.


Edited by PeterPan, 11 February 2018 - 08:41 AM.


#64 heartlikealion

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:47 AM

Haven't read all the posts. So glad you are getting that filter and have some answers.

#65 ElizabethB

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:54 AM

That is great news!

 

Once she is hearing better and is used to the filter for a week or so, here are some resources for you.  

 

Why blending is hard, how it works, with pictures, video links:

 

http://www.thephonic...ndingwords.html

 

I would focus first on re-learing sounds and blending, teach the sounds in sound order, with help from speech therapist helping you teach them, use this chart, it is in sound order:

 

http://www.thephonic...rtsCombined.pdf

 

Then, I would try my syllables program and then go through all of Webster while doing a good phonics program designed for someone with speech/hearing difficulties.  Word Mastery is a good one, it is in order of easiest to blend letters first.  Then, go through all of Webster's Speller 2+ syllable words for reading, just doing a bit of spelling, my students with underlying speech/hearing problems do best with a syllable approach.  You could also try a long vowel first phonics program, either the old 1970's Open Court or the newer School Phonics, it is now OOP but I will see if I can track down a copy.

 

The first part of the old Open Court is online:

 

http://wigowsky.com/...t/opencourt.htm