Graduating college at 18 with a "co-chosen" major

[kiana]

For you specifically, you might be okay. For someone who already has a bachelor's, they usually count the "hours attempted" as general electives for the second degree, so you still get charged if you go over even if very few of those counted for anything useful. Sometimes they will reset and sometimes they will not. Sometimes you can appeal and sometimes you cannot. Many places will exempt hours specifically earned in dual enrollment. 

 

Also, holy cow Florida is TIGHT. You're going to get charged even if you take 8 semesters of 17-18! 

[Corraleno]

We still wonder today how our children would have turned out if we had not allowed them to attend MCC. They were intellectually ready to handle college-level material. They were ready to start on a meaningful university major. What would have been the outcome if we had retarded their progress? As we discuss below, we went through a lot of anguish when Ben left home at seventeen to study at Johns Hopkins University. It was so far away, he was so young, and we knew nobody in the area. Maybe we are overly attached to our children or maybe we are inherently fearful. Regardless of the source of our problems, we are glad that we overcame our fears and let our children move on."

The idea that not "allowing" their kids to start CC at 14 would have "retarded their progress" just shows how narrow their concept of education really is. Getting a "practical" degree in a parent-chosen major as quickly as possible is not everyone's idea of educational "progress."

 

DS's DE courses from Arizona State were the easiest, least time-consuming courses on his transcript. If I'd enrolled him in CC instead of homeschooling him for high school, he wouldn't have been able to study Greek, Latin, Old Norse, Turkish, Linguistics, World Languages, World Music, Classical Art & Architecture, or much of what he covered in his English and history classes, because none of that is offered at the CC, and some isn't even offered at the local state uni. I don't consider taking English Comp 101/102 and Spanish 101/102 at the local CC to be more "advanced" than studying Greek, Latin, and Old Norse and reading literature in the original languages. DS would never have found his passion for linguistics if I'd stuck him in a CC at 14 and said "now get a degree in something practical, as quickly as possible, so you can earn a living at 18."

 

These parents may not have "retarded their kids' progress," but I do think they significantly (and unnecessarily) narrowed their options. CC at 14 may be preferable to sending the kids to PS for high school, where the choices are even more narrow and there's no college credit, but IMO there are definitely ways to homeschool high school that can provide a much broader, richer, deeper, and more personalized education than going directly into a full-time CC program at 14, with no time to really explore other options.

[8filltheheart]

The idea that not "allowing" their kids to start CC at 14 would have "retarded their progress" just shows how narrow their concept of education really is. Getting a "practical" degree in a parent-chosen major as quickly as possible is not everyone's idea of educational "progress."

 

DS's DE courses from Arizona State were the easiest, least time-consuming courses on his transcript. If I'd enrolled him in CC instead of homeschooling him for high school, he wouldn't have been able to study Greek, Latin, Old Norse, Turkish, Linguistics, World Languages, World Music, Classical Art & Architecture, or much of what he covered in his English and history classes, because none of that is offered at the CC, and some isn't even offered at the local state uni. I don't consider taking English Comp 101/102 and Spanish 101/102 at the local CC to be more "advanced" than studying Greek, Latin, and Old Norse and reading literature in the original languages. DS would never have found his passion for linguistics if I'd stuck him in a CC at 14 and said "now get a degree in something practical, as quickly as possible, so you can earn a living at 18."

 

These parents may not have "retarded their kids' progress," but I do think they significantly (and unnecessarily) narrowed their options. CC at 14 may be preferable to sending the kids to PS for high school, where the choices are even more narrow and there's no college credit, but IMO there are definitely ways to homeschool high school that can provide a much broader, richer, deeper, and more personalized education than going directly into a full-time CC program at 14, with no time to really explore other options.

 

I can't like this post enough and absolutely agree. My kids have managed to study lots of subjects to a much higher level than if they had been sitting in a college classroom. Homeschooling has provided them the opportunity to really delve into content, sit with ideas, explore opinions, progress with with ability, etc in a way that a classroom-paced 1 size fits all environment cannot.  

 

And honestly, I am sick and tired of the modern homeschool mantra that "I can't possibly teach my kids that at home myself." 

[Corraleno]

Ugh, now that I've actually read this incredibly boring and poorly written book, I am even less impressed.

One thing that really jumped out at me was how often the word "efficient" was used, not just by the parents but even by the adult children in summarizing their education. The parents' "educational" goals have little to do with education and everything to do with job training: “We wanted our children to earn as much as they possibly could for their level of intelligence and their scholastic ability." So they were "assigned a major" that would provide maximum earnings, and expected to complete it, as efficiently as possible, by the age of 18 or 19. I'm not sure how anyone can say these parents are not controlling or pushy when they explicitly say in the introduction that their plan for their four year old is that she, too, will graduate from ASU with a STEM degree by 18 or 19.

Despite calling themselves "Unapologetic Homeschoolers," they really only homeschool up to age 11, then at 12 they sign the kids up for online classes through the state's virtual high school. They say they didn't care that the HS English classes the kids were racing through as quickly as possible were mediocre because "our primary goal was just to check off an entrance requirement." At 14 they were enrolled in English 101 and 102 at CC, where they admit they provided extensive help with the kids' writing assignments. Then, yay,  all done with English!

Foreign language just was more box-checking: “We were not very concerned that the children actually learn to speak a foreign language and treated language courses as nothing more than fulfilling a requirement.†Just check the boxes for all these "useless" subjects as efficiently as possible and get that engineering degree so you can make big bucks!
 
Their whole approach is the absolute antithesis of WTM, and 180* away from how I want to educate my kids. Blech.

[Arcadia]

I'm not sure how anyone can say these parents are not controlling or pushy when they explicitly say in the introduction that their plan for their four year old is that she, too, will graduate from ASU with a STEM degree by 18 or 19.

...

They say they didn't care that the HS English classes the kids were racing through as quickly as possible were mediocre because "our primary goal was just to check off an entrance requirement." At 14 they were enrolled in English 101 and 102 at CC, where they admit they provided extensive help with the kids' writing assignments. Then, yay, all done with English!

My paternal grandparents have 9 kids. My dad who is the youngest is academically “slow†while his siblings are all capable of grade skips. My grandparents were able to teach all their kids bookkeeping except for my dad. My grandparents did not assume anything however other than their kids helping in the family business daily after school. I do think maybe the success of the older kids makes the parents think that is the blueprint for their children so they assume their plan would work for the 4 year old as well.

 

My kids do want to check the box for history by doing well for the subject tests. However it’s still their effort for checking that box when the time comes. I don’t know what the author means by extensive help because help like proofreading or getting a writing tutor is still okay, but help to the extent of as good as doing it for them would be as unethical as someone I know who earns money writing college papers (assignments) for undergrads.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

Perhaps these parents feel the dc can do the liberal arts part on their own later, by the fireside, while they make bank in tech since they didn't develop enough in an art by middle school to be on the path to make bank in an art by 18.

The author has 7 children, big age gap between the 6th and 7th child. Maybe they feel financial pressure. Also his parents were a physics lecturer and a pharmacist, maybe STEM careers is all he knows first hand. However he did switch to law after 20 years as an engineer. I know a few retrenched engineers that switch to patents and intellectual property law during the 2009 recession.

 

From the book’s page on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Homeschoolers-University-Graduates-Nineteen-ebook/dp/B00T44V3RW

“He and his wife, Tanya, have seven children, and, together, they have homeschooled them all. Five of their children graduated from ASU at age nineteen or younger with a degree in bioengineering, biochemistry, or electrical engineering. Their sixth child is studying chemical engineering at ASU and should graduate by eighteen. In about one year, their youngest child will be old enough to enter kindergarten, and she too will be schooled at home.â€

 

“Lawrence Letham came from a family of five children. His father received a PhD in physics from UC Berkeley and taught physics at a Weber State College in Ogden, UT. His mother received a degree in pharmaceutical sciences from the University of Utah and worked for a time as a pharmacist. â€

[...................]

Ugh, now that I've actually read this incredibly boring and poorly written book, I am even less impressed.

 

One thing that really jumped out at me was how often the word "efficient" was used, not just by the parents but even by the adult children in summarizing their education. The parents' "educational" goals have little to do with education and everything to do with job training: “We wanted our children to earn as much as they possibly could for their level of intelligence and their scholastic ability." So they were "assigned a major" that would provide maximum earnings, and expected to complete it, as efficiently as possible, by the age of 18 or 19. I'm not sure how anyone can say these parents are not controlling or pushy when they explicitly say in the introduction that their plan for their four year old is that she, too, will graduate from ASU with a STEM degree by 18 or 19.

 

Despite calling themselves "Unapologetic Homeschoolers," they really only homeschool up to age 11, then at 12 they sign the kids up for online classes through the state's virtual high school. They say they didn't care that the HS English classes the kids were racing through as quickly as possible were mediocre because "our primary goal was just to check off an entrance requirement." At 14 they were enrolled in English 101 and 102 at CC, where they admit they provided extensive help with the kids' writing assignments. Then, yay, all done with English!

 

Foreign language just was more box-checking: “We were not very concerned that the children actually learn to speak a foreign language and treated language courses as nothing more than fulfilling a requirement.†Just check the boxes for all these "useless" subjects as efficiently as possible and get that engineering degree so you can make big bucks!

 

Their whole approach is the absolute antithesis of WTM, and 180* away from how I want to educate my kids. Blech.

I agree. My son is doing early college and has loved really delving into his books. Yes it’s movinf faster than it could. But since he spent his entire childhood actually enjoying the content and process of LEARNING this is what he’s doing

In college too. We really enjoy talking about what he’s studying and he’s already take many rabbit trails researching information and primary sources just for the sheer interest of it.

 

If we had rushed him along and taught him to merely “box check†how would he view these classes? How would he view learning in general?

 

Sad, not my plan either. My son went to college early because he was ready and it was /

Is the best option for us at the time.NOT because we planned it for him at four years old!!!!

[...................]

People ask us al the time, “is your dd going to college at 15 too?†And we just say, “probably not, she may need more time and we aren’t trying to rush them.â€

 

She will probably go a little early but they’re two different kids. Different plans.

[Corraleno]

I don’t know what the author means by extensive help because help like proofreading or getting a writing tutor is still okay, but help to the extent of as good as doing it for them would be as unethical as someone I know who earns money writing college papers (assignments) for undergrads.

 

Their level of involvement in their children's college English classes went well beyond proofreading or even what a typical tutor would do:

 

 

“We worked one-on-one with each child. If necessary, we went through each line of each essay to point out what was good, what did not make sense, what was missing, or what could be eliminated. We would then have the child rewrite the paper…. For Tanya and I the process was involved, tiring, and yet very satisfying because we saw our children’s ability to write expressively blossom. We were always glad when a child finished English 101 and 102, but at the same time we were sad because our close interaction with the child to learn the English language was essentially over.â€

 

 

IMO if a parent needs to be so involved in a student's college assignments that the parent finds the work tiring and is so glad when the class is over, that student is probably not ready for college-level classes.

[Arcadia]

Their level of involvement in their children's college English classes went well beyond proofreading or even what a typical tutor would do:

 

IMO if a parent needs to be so involved in a student's college assignments that the parent finds the work tiring and is so glad when the class is over, that student is probably not ready for college-level classes.

My kids would have placed into ASU’s Eng105 based on their SAT scores. It does sound like the parents are just pushing their kids through the process of Eng101 & Eng102 in a get it over and done with way. It’s also sad that they think the close interactions to learn the English language with their kids is over once Eng102 is completed. My husband enjoys discussing literature with our kids and my DS13 enjoys talking about language differences with me.

[nixpix5]

This decision is making less and less sense now.

 

Math professor pays peanuts, especially when you add up the opportunity cost of staying in school so long. I'd make a lot more money if I'd stuck with the bachelor's and gone for actuarial certification.

Right? Actuaries do so well!

 

I know what you are saying. I am sure his dad was hoping with a "lucrative" bachelor's degree he might go a different path in grad school but if not, he wasn't going to stop him. Bachelors plus 90 still gives a math teacher boost if teaching at the high school level. Still peanuts.

 

With that said, I know a couple of actuaries and one only has his bachelor's in engineering and took the actuary exams.

[nixpix5]

That is me too. My high school and university are literally within sight of each other. Starting when I was 9, I would walk 3 miles to the university bookstore and spend hours there in summer. Auditing college classes is one of my planned retirement activities. While in high school, many times, I pined for college. I even asked my mom at one time if I could take a class. I didn't even have a particular class in mind, any would have been good. My parents were very pro-high school experience and said No. To me, High School equals drudgery and University is the promised land.

This was me. I have low latent inhibition which wasn't well known in the 80s and tested off the charts so they put me in all of these gifted programs but it wasn't enough. I longed and begged to go to school with someone who could think like I did as a kid. Public school was torture because I had to care about what others cared about. By middle school I was so over it that I got myself into tons of teen mischief. I was bored out of my skull. I was a kid that would have been so happy to go to college at 14 :)

[8filltheheart]

 

Their level of involvement in their children's college English classes went well beyond proofreading or even what a typical tutor would do:

 

 

 

 

IMO if a parent needs to be so involved in a student's college assignments that the parent finds the work tiring and is so glad when the class is over, that student is probably not ready for college-level classes.

 

Wow.  Beyond that, I LOVE the discussions our literature studies generate. Oh my word.  I wouldn't lose those opportunities for anything.  College credit so isn't worth being deprived of discussing Out of the Silent Planet (my current conversation ;) ) and discussing the ways essays could address so many of the different theological/philosophical topics woven into the narrative. And then reading those essays? Priceless!!

[maize]

Wow. Beyond that, I LOVE the discussions our literature studies generate. Oh my word. I wouldn't lose those opportunities for anything. College credit so isn't worth being deprived of discussing Out of the Silent Planet (my current conversation ;) ) and discussing the ways essays could address so many of the different theological/philosophical topics woven into the narrative. And then reading those essays? Priceless!!

Sigh.

 

I want these kinds of discussions...

 

I'm so swamped with trying to survive that we're stuck with just the basics for school.

 

Well, and majoring in extracurriculars. Which seems to be what my kids need for mental health.

 

I'm certainly not going to judge anyone else's totally adequate means of educating their children because I don't think it matches some ideal of mine.

 

I recognize though that what many people are saying in this thread is that this family's path isn't what they want for their own kids, which is perfectly reasonable.

[8filltheheart]

Sigh.

 

I want these kinds of discussions...

 

I'm so swamped with trying to survive that we're stuck with just the basics for school.

 

Well, and majoring in extracurriculars. Which seems to be what my kids need for mental health.

 

I'm certainly not going to judge anyone else's totally adequate means of educating their children because I don't think it matches some ideal of mine.

 

I recognize though that what many people are saying in this thread is that this family's path isn't what they want for their own kids, which is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sorry, maize.  My involvement in my kids' college courses is pretty near nil---which is absolutely, positively what it should be.  (I have proofread my dyslexics' essays on occasion for spelling errors, but no way would I consider what that paragraph described as student produced.)  When a parent can actually describe their part in a student's class.....that moves from college level to something completely different. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[maize]

Sorry, maize. My involvement in my kids' college courses is pretty near nil---which is absolutely, positively what it should be. (I have proofread my dyslexics' essays on occasion for spelling errors, but no way would I consider what that paragraph described as student produced.) When a parent can actually describe their part in a student's class.....that moves from college level to something completely different.

They were acting as intensive tutors.

 

An awful lot of college students only make it through difficult classes with lots of tutoring.

 

I dunno...I'm a bit jealous. I was on my own to sink or swim with school in my teens and I did a lot of sinking. I also would have been a lot better off to have sought tutoring or other help with some college classes but it never occurred to me that I could.

[Corraleno]

Wow.  Beyond that, I LOVE the discussions our literature studies generate. Oh my word.  I wouldn't lose those opportunities for anything.  College credit so isn't worth being deprived of discussing Out of the Silent Planet (my current conversation ;) ) and discussing the ways essays could address so many of the different theological/philosophical topics woven into the narrative. And then reading those essays? Priceless!!

I know, right? Those discussions are the reward for all the grunt work!

 

But I don't think literary discussions were high on their list of priorities — or even anywhere on the list, actually. They even made all the kids take the English 101/102 classes during the highly compressed summer sessions "to eliminate all the fluff" — just crank out the minimum number of papers required (co-written by mom and dad!), in the shortest possible time, to check off those English boxes.

 

It's such a weird industrial approach to education — like the goal was to set up an assembly line so they could manufacture a series of cloned engineers in the fastest and most efficient way possible.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t think that rushing your kids through school for the sake of money is wrong, but I don’t think j that it is something to emulate. When they wrote the book they were setting themselves up as someone within the “homeschool community†to emulate. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the merits and demerits of their method, isn’t it?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quark]

I bought and read the book and had a different reaction from my initial one reading through the see inside function on Amazon. No, I would not choose this for my child. And my child started CC full time at 11 and university full time at 14 and is currently on the honors track and will likely graduate at 18. I would not have chosen my kid's major. Nor would I have spent a good number of pages in a book I am writing rationalizing that decision. I was cringing at the description of editing the essays line by line.

 

When I started reading it, I thought, hmm, they seem like interesting parents with interesting values. Then they had the kids write about their experiences and it all felt a little over rationalized to me. 

 

There's honestly a big difference when the kid pulls you on to the path. Even a kid who is a reluctant writer. Because they want it so much that they will teach themselves the subject matter/practice the skill. You can't beat that. It's incredibly painful and also exhilarating to sit in the sidelines and watch your 13yo read and analyze literature to the point where they are almost in tears of frustration for both the difficulty of writing essays and in tears of joy for the beauty of words and philosophical value. And when they run out of a hall after taking AP Lit to explain so excitedly the link between jazz and a poem they had to analyze. I love sitting back and watching the teen talk...enthusiasm just leaking out of those pores. Enthusiasm for literature...not even math!

 

I picked up on the fact that the parents wanted the best for their kids but yeah, I am glad our best was different.

 

I can totally see how the book might have affected me if I had had a younger child and was new to homeschooling. But the last 10 years of homeschooling kiddo taught me some lessons I cannot forget. and the specter of my own parents forcing me one way when my heart yearned for another reminded me how it feels to not be able to do what you know in your core you are called to do.

 

Fascinating that the kids don't seem to have rebelled (not mentioned in the book IIRC).

[Corraleno]

I don’t think that rushing your kids through school for the sake of money is wrong, but I don’t think j that it is something to emulate. When they wrote the book they were setting themselves up as someone within the “homeschool community†to emulate. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the merits and demerits of their method, isn’t it?

Exactly. And one of the absolute craziest things in the book is that the dad admits he knows absolutely nothing about scholarships, and they paid full price for most of the older kids' degrees! He was surprised when two of the kids got small scholarships based on their scores on a state test (AIMS) but admits he doesn't really know how that works, and yet he also says that he only has the kids take the ACT once, with minimal prep, because they all score well enough to be admitted to ASU!

 

I could sum this book up as "My homeschooling methods are so awesome that I was able to pay full price for my really bright kids to get a degree from a school that admits 83% of applicants!"

 

:blink:

Edited February 8, 2018 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

Fascinating that the kids don't seem to have rebelled (not mentioned in the book IIRC).

I think it's interesting that the sections that are (supposedly) written by the kids are stylistically almost identical to the sections written by the dad. And they each comment about how efficient their education was and how much time their peers wasted, and how glad they are that their parents directed their education. Maybe the kids really are all that much alike, and maybe they really do all have the same efficiency-is-everything mindset, but I think it's also possible that dad may have "helped" quite a bit with those chapters. Here's an example of writing that is supposedly by two different kids:

 

Lydia

“There was no question in my mind as to the process. I was going to be attending MCC at 14, transferring to ASU a few semesters later, and graduating by 18 or 19 in some variation of engineering. That was The Plan.â€

 

Portia

“In my mind there has never been any question of what I will do. I knew I would start MCC at about 14 years old, and I would graduate with some sort of engineering or science degree at about eighteen years of age.â€

[kiana]

They probably did line-by-line edits of that too. 

 

Edit: Stepford Children?

Edited February 8, 2018 by kiana

[Dmmetler]

I do want to say that the interesting discussions don’t stop when your child enters college classes. Or, at least, they didn’t here. I don’t edit DD’s papers or, often, even read them unless she wants me to, but every time I pick her up from campus, she has something new to discuss and something that she wants to talk about, and it spills over. Most of her professors are enthusiasfic about their subjects, and it is contagious. And, at least in my case, I’m a better listener and conversation partner when DD has other people to discuss with and listen to and a range of opinions.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do want to say that the interesting discussions don’t stop when your child enters college classes. Or, at least, they didn’t here. I don’t edit DD’s papers or, often, even read them unless she wants me to, but every time I pick her up from campus, she has something new to discuss and something that she wants to talk about, and it spills over. Most of her professors are enthusiasfic about their subjects, and it is contagious. And, at least in my case, I’m a better listener and conversation partner when DD has other people to discuss with and listen to and a range of opinions.

No one is saying that there aren’t interesting discussions in college for those ready for college level work. But I would venture to guess that most kids who need line by line editing in freshman English aren’t ready for the in depth discussions either.

[8filltheheart]

I do want to say that the interesting discussions don’t stop when your child enters college classes. Or, at least, they didn’t here. I don’t edit DD’s papers or, often, even read them unless she wants me to, but every time I pick her up from campus, she has something new to discuss and something that she wants to talk about, and it spills over. Most of her professors are enthusiasfic about their subjects, and it is contagious. And, at least in my case, I’m a better listener and conversation partner when DD has other people to discuss with and listen to and a range of opinions.

 

I would not categorize anything you and your dd are doing in the same educational realm as what is being discussed in this thread.  ;) 

[luuknam]

Fortunately for luuknam, excess hours is not a thing at the big state U next door that does offer a lot of class sections, including night.

 

Again, not about me. Even if it's not an issue here, excess hours are an issue in certain states, and therefore "just do a second bachelor's if you're not happy with the first one we chose for you" is not something that should be given as a blanket recommendation. 

 

The employer can use the interview to explore any concerns.  Its not unknown for an artist to have a practical degree or skill.  Math or music?  Acting or carpentry?  Sculpting or teacher?   One skill is going to be developed enough to make a living while the other gets developed.  With art history/eng, I, not an arty person, would guess restoration as the goal occupation. 

 

You'd have to get an interview first. If your application gets thrown out before the interview stage, you won't be able to explain yourself (obviously, you do have some opportunity with the cover letter, but interviews are not guaranteed).

 

Also, I have no idea why you'd think that someone who's forced to graduate with an engineering degree at 18 but wants to do art history would want some sort of combination of engineering and art history. Maybe they want to be an art history professor and write journal articles about the influence of the Black Death on late 14th century French painters and teach art history college classes, but dad just happened to think it'd be a good idea to get an engineering degree first (which, typically doesn't have much space for electives). Now, maybe dad is not wrong that there aren't many job opportunities for people with such a career goal, but that doesn't mean that being an engineer at 18 is the most logical/sensible option. STEM jobs are not the only jobs on the planet, nor the only jobs that pay a living wage. 

 

(I realize art history was a hypothetical example, but the thing about history, war, and governance was not, and the same holds true for that)

 

It's such a weird industrial approach to education — like the goal was to set up an assembly line so they could manufacture a series of cloned engineers in the fastest and most efficient way possible.

 

 

Hm... suddenly reminded of Cheaper by the Dozen (both the book and the movie are good), which is about the Gilbreth family, and the dad in that family is basically the inventor of efficiency engineering (time and motion studies in factories to make employees etc more efficient). They didn't homeschool, but they had their kids skip multiple grades in school for efficiency. 

[kiana]

Hm... suddenly reminded of Cheaper by the Dozen (both the book and the movie are good), which is about the Gilbreth family, and the dad in that family is basically the inventor of efficiency engineering (time and motion studies in factories to make employees etc more efficient). They didn't homeschool, but they had their kids skip multiple grades in school for efficiency. 

 

Ya. At some point, though (forgot whether it was in that book or the sequel Belles on their Toes), they mention that one of the reasons was because he knew he had a bad heart and was trying to get the kids as far ahead as possible before he dropped dead. It was rather unusual for a woman to do what Mother did and just take over the company there.

[Dmmetler]

On editing papers, DD had two essays turned back to her this week, with the comment that “the content is wonderful, but the formatting is wrong.†Apparently, she turned in an English essay in APA and a psychology essay in MLA. Oops :). (In fairness, both topics could easily have applied to the other discipline-one was on the impact of group care for infants and the other was on the possible causes of teen violence.) (in both cases, she got A’s, but was told to fix the formatting and resubmit).

 

Honestly, I don’t know if I would have caught that one!

 

On English, DD placed out of the general sequence based on test scores, but after BK did Eng comp 1, I sat down with DD and her bio mentor, and we decided that it would be a good idea for her to take it. The reason was simply that her writing has been very focused on science writing and most of her co-writers and peer editors have been graduate students and professionals. We felt that it would be good for her to get some experience writing essays for different purposes that don’t always relate to snakes and that getting a good picture of what Freshman in college writing looks like would be helpful since it is likely that she will be teaching classes that happen to involve writing, either while in grad school, as a professional, or both.

 

So far, I think it was a good choice. The class isn’t necessarily as hard for her or hard in the same ways that it is for her classmates, but as the above example shows, she still has room to learn.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Dmmetler2

[luuknam]

Ya. At some point, though (forgot whether it was in that book or the sequel Belles on their Toes), they mention that one of the reasons was because he knew he had a bad heart and was trying to get the kids as far ahead as possible before he dropped dead. It was rather unusual for a woman to do what Mother did and just take over the company there.

 

 

Not sure if I knew that. It's been a few years since I've seen the movie, and a couple more years since I've read the book (and I don't think I read the sequel). I didn't get the impression that they were rushing them through stuff beyond reason though - no line editing college papers, but, like I said, it's been a while. They did mention that they'd sometimes feel pressure to skip a grade to avoid having a younger sibling in the same grade, but mostly it seemed they were quirky but fun. They did stuff like paint Morse code on the kid's bedroom ceiling so they'd memorize it faster (and had certain words to go with each of he codes to help them remember).

[Mergath]

 

Their level of involvement in their children's college English classes went well beyond proofreading or even what a typical tutor would do:

 

 

 

 

IMO if a parent needs to be so involved in a student's college assignments that the parent finds the work tiring and is so glad when the class is over, that student is probably not ready for college-level classes.

 

Yes. Thank you. I read the first half of the book tonight after seeing it mentioned here, and I was coming here to post exactly this.

 

If you can't pass Comp 101 without your parents rewriting every line of your papers, you aren't ready for college. Period. It's not like this was some obscure science class they had to take to meet a requirement for a STEM degree, and they'll never use the knowledge again. This is writing. You kind of need to be able to do that regardless of what field you're aiming for. 

 

Not to mention that the parents aren't the greatest writers, either. The book is so dull and dry I'm having trouble staying awake. It reads like a high school senior's sociology paper and if I didn't need more ammo for the Goodreads review I'm planning on writing, I'd DNF it right now.

 

And- irony!- there's a spellcheck-generated typo in the exact sentence where they talk about how they don't know if their kids can spell or not because they always use spellcheck. Apparently dad can afford to pay retail for college for all of his children, but couldn't be bothered to hire a proofreader. I guess that's what happens when writing well is at the bottom of your academic priority list.

[Tsuga]

Despite calling themselves "Unapologetic Homeschoolers," they really only homeschool up to age 11, then at 12 they sign the kids up for online classes through the state's virtual high school. ...At 14 they were enrolled in English 101 and 102 at CC, where they admit they provided extensive help with the kids' writing assignments. ..Just check the boxes for all these "useless" subjects as efficiently as possible and get that engineering degree so you can make big bucks!

 

Their whole approach is the absolute antithesis of WTM, and 180* away from how I want to educate my kids. Blech.

Interesting point... I do think you can go deeper in CC but for humanities I agree that WTM curriculum or even an IB program or AP could surpass what you get in an average or below average CC. Particularly if the CC focus is on delivering a broad education to technically focused people that is not going to be the most stimulating experience.

[LucyStoner]

I have a close friend who was a history major and has worked in Department of Defense in Intelligence Operations for years. Seems rather lucrative to me.

One of this year’s Blue Angels spoke to my son’s Freshman class breakfast. He had a BA in history. I’m guessing no one would consider him a career failure. :p

[LucyStoner]

There’s a word for a parent rewriting all of a college student’s papers line by line. It’s called CHEATING.

[maize]

One of this year’s Blue Angels spoke to my son’s Freshman class breakfast. He had a BA in history. I’m guessing no one would consider him a career failure. :p

Back in my AFROTC days history was the most popular major among pilot wannabes who generally chose it because they considered it easy.

 

I'm not dissing history as a major, I majored in anthropology myself :tongue_smilie: and really a history background is a good thing for a military officer to have. But "easy fly boy major" was the rep.

[LucyStoner]

Back in my AFROTC days history was the most popular major among pilot wannabes who generally chose it because they considered it easy.

 

I'm not dissing history as a major, I majored in anthropology myself :tongue_smilie: and really a history background is a good thing for a military officer to have. But "easy fly boy major" was the rep.

I get that. However, choosing a major that is time wise compatible with your other life goals could be seen as prudent.

[SanDiegoMom]

One of this year’s Blue Angels spoke to my son’s Freshman class breakfast. He had a BA in history. I’m guessing no one would consider him a career failure. :p

 

 

My dh (USMC aviator) definitely regrets not majoring in something easier than Mech E (and would have vastly preferred History or Econ), however for the Blue Angels and anyone in Military Aviation they aren't exactly ever using their degree, and the choice of degree has no impact on their career. A civilian would have a vastly different path and set, or lack, of opportunities. 

[happybeachbum]

On 1/26/2018 at 1:18 PM, EliseMcKenna said:

I need to discuss the ideas in the book "Unapologetic Homeschoolers: University Graduates by Nineteen." In a nutshell, the authors have sent six children to universities, and the children have then opted for graduate work in fields like emergency medicine, math, and engineering. All of their undergraduate degrees started at age 14, and those were required to meet two criteria: 1. The child must be able to support himself with only that undergraduate degree (hence, a degree in history would have been forbidden, according to the authors), and 2. The chosen undergraduate degree must not hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work.

 

There is truly SO MUCH to unpack in this book. I just started it yesterday, and I am still trying to wrap my head around it all. It's like the antithesis of what I've been doing, not to mention what is the standard advice in many homeschooling circles now (relax, have fun, let the children study their own interests, etc.). 

 

The thing is, I was ready to dismiss it all as ludicrous until I read the accounts written by the children themselves at the end of the book. They all rave about the advantages these methods provided them. But . . . are they secretly all in counseling trying to understand their parents' motivations???

 

I'd love to discuss. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Homeschoolers-University-Graduates-Nineteen-ebook/dp/B00T44V3RW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516992306&sr=8-1&keywords=unapologetic+homeschoolers

But then you have to look at the fact that's the choices they were given. The reminds me of the author of No Regrets Homeschooling.

[happybeachbum]

On 1/26/2018 at 3:32 PM, EliseMcKenna said:

 

I'm not defending the authors' stance, but here is what they say on this topic:

 

"We had a back-and-forth conversation with each child about her or his undergraduate major and possible graduate studies. We steered the children toward degrees that suited their strengths and interests and that also would likely lead to successful employment. As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

 

Sadly many in engineering are saying the same about STEM. Then when you look at how many ended up in non-STEM jobs

[happybeachbum]

On 1/27/2018 at 2:56 PM, kiana said:

Adding to Tsuga's post above -- Just today, I was looking for other information and found a note that for Yale, in 1720 Geometry was a senior-level class -- in 1743, sophomore -- in 1825, third term freshmen -- in 1835, part of the entrance requirements. 

This is also an interesting find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-year_junior_college