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Graduating college at 18 with a "co-chosen" major


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I need to discuss the ideas in the book "Unapologetic Homeschoolers: University Graduates by Nineteen." In a nutshell, the authors have sent six children to universities, and the children have then opted for graduate work in fields like emergency medicine, math, and engineering. All of their undergraduate degrees started at age 14, and those were required to meet two criteria: 1. The child must be able to support himself with only that undergraduate degree (hence, a degree in history would have been forbidden, according to the authors), and 2. The chosen undergraduate degree must not hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work.

 

There is truly SO MUCH to unpack in this book. I just started it yesterday, and I am still trying to wrap my head around it all. It's like the antithesis of what I've been doing, not to mention what is the standard advice in many homeschooling circles now (relax, have fun, let the children study their own interests, etc.). 

 

The thing is, I was ready to dismiss it all as ludicrous until I read the accounts written by the children themselves at the end of the book. They all rave about the advantages these methods provided them. But . . . are they secretly all in counseling trying to understand their parents' motivations???

 

I'd love to discuss. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Unapologetic-Homeschoolers-University-Graduates-Nineteen-ebook/dp/B00T44V3RW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516992306&sr=8-1&keywords=unapologetic+homeschoolers

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Two comments:

1. I do not think this works for most children, because most 14 year olds are not ready for university level work. (Of course you can find some kind of college that has a level low enough to match any non-LD 14 y/o, but  I don't see the point of that). So, are we talking about the best way to educate highly gifted children, or are the authors claiming they can do this with any kid? If they claim "any" kid, then the bar for that college education hangs fairly low.

 

2. I  do not see the value of graduating with an undergraduate degree at age 19, as opposed to doing college level work for their high school studies and then entering college at age 17 or 18 with a stronger transcript that allows access to selective colleges or other opportunities.

 

I am strongly in favor of educating children according to their abilities and giving kids who are capable of college level work the opportunity to do so, but I fail to see why that would mean early HS graduation and college at 14. Homeschooling is immensely flexible; why not do a college level high school education? I do not see education as a race and I fail to see an advantage of graduating at age 19.

My DD took her first college class at age 13. By the time she graduated highschool at 17, she had 32 credits from a 4 year university. This enabled her to be admitted to a top university for her undergraduate, where she will graduate this June with two degrees. (But she is still not sure whether she wants to attend grad school.) Why would I have wanted her to graduate at age 18 from the local university?

 

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I never know what to discuss about books/ scenarios like this.  MY kids were not ready to go to college at age 14.  Even my son with a genius IQ.  (Not bragging.  Honest.  Just stating the disconnect between academic ability and what was best for MY son.)  He's in a college of his own choosing and is transferring to another college of his own choosing at age 20.  It doesn't seem to have ruined his life or his prospects.  He already works a good job in his chosen field. 

 

My thought when I read things like this is "good for them".  (Not in a snarky way.)  But a more relaxed schedule for launch was best for MY family. 

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Two comments:

1. I do not think this works for most children, because most 14 year olds are not ready for university level work. (Of course you can find some kind of college that has a level low enough to match any non-LD 14 y/o, but  I don't see the point of that). So, are we talking about the best way to educate highly gifted children, or are the authors claiming they can do this with any kid? If they claim "any" kid, then the bar for that college education hangs fairly low.

 

2. I  do not see the value of graduating with an undergraduate degree at age 19, as opposed to doing college level work for their high school studies and then entering college at age 17 or 18 with a stronger transcript that allows access to selective colleges or other opportunities.

 

I am strongly in favor of educating children according to their abilities and giving kids who are capable of college level work the opportunity to do so, but I fail to see why that would mean early HS graduation and college at 14. Homeschooling is immensely flexible; why not do a college level high school education? I do not see education as a race and I fail to see an advantage of graduating at age 19.

My DD took her first college class at age 13. By the time she graduated highschool at 17, she had 32 credits from a 4 year university. This enabled her to be admitted to a top university for her undergraduate, where she will graduate this June with two degrees. (But she is still not sure whether she wants to attend grad school.) Why would I have wanted her to graduate at age 18 from the local university?

 

Here is a quote from the book: "One comment we hear a lot when people learn about our children's educational attainments is that they must be geniuses. We feel our children are accomplished not because they are geniuses but because their environment prepared them to learn and to do well and because we provided the opportunities for them to maximize their potential . . . We have seen so many families that have had uneven results with their children. Our children's consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

As for your #2, I personally don't have an answer. My oldest is 10, so that's partly why I'm wondering how this all actually works for the rest of us.

Edited by EliseMcKenna
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2. I  do not see the value of graduating with an undergraduate degree at age 19, as opposed to doing college level work for their high school studies and then entering college at age 17 or 18 with a stronger transcript that allows access to selective colleges or other opportunities.

 

I am strongly in favor of educating children according to their abilities and giving kids who are capable of college level work the opportunity to do so, but I fail to see why that would mean early HS graduation and college at 14. Homeschooling is immensely flexible; why not do a college level high school education? I do not see education as a race and I fail to see an advantage of graduating at age 19.

My DD took her first college class at age 13. By the time she graduated highschool at 17, she had 32 credits from a 4 year university. This enabled her to be admitted to a top university for her undergraduate, where she will graduate this June with two degrees. (But she is still not sure whether she wants to attend grad school.) Why would I have wanted her to graduate at age 18 from the local university?

 

I'm with you on this and it's actually quite timely as we are thinking about what to do with dd as she gets ready to enter high school. She will certainly be capable of handling university-level work in high school but I don't see a real advantage in graduating her early and sending her off to college before she can drive. But I want to challenge her. I am intrigued by your story about your dd -- I didn't know it was possible to take for-credit classes at a university without having graduated high school. I'd love to know more about this if you have the time/inclination to share your story or suggest another resource. Feel free to PM me; I don't want to derail the thread.

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I hope someone here has read the book. I know that feeling of NEEDING to talk about a book after finishing. Unfortunately it's not at my library and I'm pretty picky about the books I buy.

 

However, I will add that I actually know a family who did this, and a lot of their motivation was related to finances and to religious beliefs. They also had six children, and they knew they wanted their kids to live at home while going to college. I cannot really speak more to this, because their views are totally opposite my own (I actually think college is totally wasted on the young, in my most grumpy moments). I do think setting young people's focus on grad school, not college, is much more the norm these days than it was when I was growing up-- when just a 4 year degree was a good enough achievement for most of us-- and maybe finishing college requirements earlier is part of that trend of no longer really seeing a 4 year degree as a crowning achievement.

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I hope someone here has read the book. I know that feeling of NEEDING to talk about a book after finishing. Unfortunately it's not at my library and I'm pretty picky about the books I buy.

 

However, I will add that I actually know a family who did this, and a lot of their motivation was related to finances and to religious beliefs. They also had six children, and they knew they wanted their kids to live at home while going to college. I cannot really speak more to this, because their views are totally opposite my own (I actually think college is totally wasted on the young, in my most grumpy moments). I do think setting young people's focus on grad school, not college, is much more the norm these days than it was when I was growing up-- when just a 4 year degree was a good enough achievement for most of us-- and maybe finishing college requirements earlier is part of that trend of no longer really seeing a 4 year degree as a crowning achievement.

 

 

Ha! Yes, it's a burning desire! I could only read so much of it aloud to my husband last night to get his opinion. 

 

And like I said, some of it does make sense, and I can totally understand where they're coming from. I think I've just spent so long focused on things like reading the classics and learning Latin that their math-heavy, job-driven approach is completely foreign to me. But intriguing. 

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Here is a quote from the book: "One comment we hear a lot when people learn about our children's educational attainments is that they must be geniuses. We feel our children are accomplished not because they are geniuses but because their environment prepared them to learn and to do well and because we provided the opportunities for them to maximize their potential . . . We have seen so many families that have had uneven results with their children. Our children's consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

As for your #2, I personally don't have an answer. My oldest is 10, so that's partly why I'm wondering how this all actually works for the rest of us.

 

I provided my kids a liberal arts education - in high school. The last couple of years are at a college level.  In fact, some of what we have done has exceeded what has been offered in college classes.  This actually is the same model that I had in brick and mortar private school back in the day.  I don't see their goals as necessarily being all that high.  But again - what works for them is great.  I just don't see it as being some great template for all to follow.  For one thing, in our area, we could not have afforded it.  The colleges in our area required me to enroll (ie. pay the same per class fee) with any child under age 16 and attend along side him.  I checked at the time.  It was better for us to have those high goals - at home.  I dislike the tone in the quote that seems to suggest that anyone who doesn't follow their pattern doesn't have high goals for their kids or doesn't have a good educational environment. 

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I generally agree with regentrude on this topic.

 

I was not homeschooled and was horribly out of sync with my age peers much of the time, and gravitated towards social relationships with older kids and adults. Even so, getting to attend college with other really smart kids *my own age* was the first time I ever found real peers and friendships. Even though my daughter is very gifted and years ahead academically, my intention is not to graduate her early (a year or two if itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s what she wants would be a consideration for me) because I want her to have that same opportunity for true peers.

 

I have known of a number of families that use low level community college classes starting at a young age, often starting with high school level remedial classes that they call Ă¢â‚¬Å“college classesĂ¢â‚¬ because theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re offered at a college campus, then transfer to a local four year university. They may have a college degree at 18-19, but itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not a rigorous education. Moreover, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not an interesting education. They march in a lockstep through required courses without any flavor of an individualized education, which is so unfortunate when homeschoolers have so much opportunity to individualize.

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I think the last time we talked about this, it was from this today show segment: https://www.today.com/news/meet-family-who-sent-six-kids-college-age-12-1C9316706

 

An illuminating quote jumped out at me:

 

"Seth was motivated by his brother Keith's success. Keith is just down the hall, studying finite mathematics, a college senior -- at 14"

 

Finite math is basically high school level math, I think it counts as remedial math for stem-type majors, so having a "college senior" taking it at 14 seems not terribly advanced.  At this university, the prereq for finite math is high-school level algebra.

 

ETA:  Well, that's odd, this book is a different book about a family of 6 sending their all their kids to college early.

 

 

Edited by GGardner
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I provided my kids a liberal arts education - in high school. The last couple of years are at a college level.  In fact, some of what we have done has exceeded what has been offered in college classes.  This actually is the same model that I had in brick and mortar private school back in the day.  I don't see their goals as necessarily being all that high.  But again - what works for them is great.  I just don't see it as being some great template for all to follow.  For one thing, in our area, we could not have afforded it.  The colleges in our area required me to enroll (ie. pay the same per class fee) with any child under age 16 and attend along side him.  I checked at the time.  It was better for us to have those high goals - at home.  I dislike the tone in the quote that seems to suggest that anyone who doesn't follow their pattern doesn't have high goals for their kids or doesn't have a good educational environment. 

 

The tone is like that through the entire book, IMO. Even in the children's writing. Slightly off-putting, I agree.

 

 

I generally agree with regentrude on this topic.

 

I was not homeschooled and was horribly out of sync with my age peers much of the time, and gravitated towards social relationships with older kids and adults. Even so, getting to attend college with other really smart kids *my own age* was the first time I ever found real peers and friendships. Even though my daughter is very gifted and years ahead academically, my intention is not to graduate her early (a year or two if itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s what she wants would be a consideration for me) because I want her to have that same opportunity for true peers.

 

I have known of a number of families that use low level community college classes starting at a young age, often starting with high school level remedial classes that they call Ă¢â‚¬Å“college classesĂ¢â‚¬ because theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re offered at a college campus, then transfer to a local four year university. They may have a college degree at 18-19, but itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not a rigorous education. Moreover, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not an interesting education. They march in a lockstep through required courses without any flavor of an individualized education, which is so unfortunate when homeschoolers have so much opportunity to individualize.

 

 

Good points!

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I think the last time we talked about this, it was from this today show segment: https://www.today.com/news/meet-family-who-sent-six-kids-college-age-12-1C9316706

 

An illuminating quote jumped out at me:

 

"Seth was motivated by his brother Keith's success. Keith is just down the hall, studying finite mathematics, a college senior -- at 14"

 

Finite math is basically high school level math, I think it counts as remedial math for stem-type majors, so having a "college senior" taking it at 14 seems not terribly advanced.  At this university, the prereq for finite math is high-school level algebra.

 

 

Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.

 

The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.

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I think the last time we talked about this, it was from this today show segment: https://www.today.com/news/meet-family-who-sent-six-kids-college-age-12-1C9316706

 

 

ETA:  Well, that's odd, this book is a different book about a family of 6 sending their all their kids to college early.

 

 

I just watched the Today show segment. So fascinating! But they seem to give their kids a lot more choice than the family in "Unapologetic Homeschoolers." (Although maybe both families would disagree with that statement.)

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Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.

 

The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.

 

Those are good schools.  And it's great that those kids wanted to do those degrees (assuming as you did, that they truly did want them).  I don't think that it is a bad thing to do for some.  Some of this board are doing similar trajectories. 

 

But I personally have some different values and goals.  While I want my kids to have careers (and both are STEM oriented and one is majoring in a STEM degree at college and one plans to go into medicine at this time), I don't see careers as the end goal.  They are just one goal.  I purposefully majored in a liberal arts approach from K - 12 to train their minds as well as to give them more options than were available to the kids in this family (according to their own reporting).  I think that a more well rounded education is important as citizens, thus the affinity with having a "well trained mind".  I also want my kids to own their own higher education - their majors and eventual careers even if it means that it changes over time.  Ds 20 has already changed from one STEM major to another.  Dd is focused early on one area but I also realize that it might change and would have no problem with that because it is HER life.  But I have highly independent kids who ask for advice and input but are forging their own way.  And I personally value that. 

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DS19 is only slightly behind the kids in the book. He started CC at 14 and will, if all goes according to plan, graduate from a four year university with double majors next year when he's 20. I've never thought it was much of a big deal. We (group decision, with him having the final decision) simply chose what we felt was the best path for him. That's all. We didn't go into for money savings or put any expectations on him along the way. I don't believe in accelerating kids simply for the sake of acceleration. I don't believe in forcing kids into educational or career paths that might not be right for them.

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My oldest is almost 16. She has 2 college classes done, and is currently enrolled in 3. I expect she will graduate high school with an Associates or be very, very close. If she wants to, she can then do only 2 years at a  4 year school. I wouldn't really mind if she chooses to go half-time or add a second major or a minor causing her to take a little longer.

 

I didn't put her in community college because I want her to graduate early; if anything, she's one who might need a little more time to launch. I enrolled her in cc because the classes are not that much more difficult than high school classes (she did take a high school level class there last semester - remedial Chemistry) because she doesn't do well in online classes, there are very few secular class options in my area, and she's outgrowing/fighting me as her teacher. So, cc was the easiest way to outsource. If she gets some college credit out of the deal, I consider it a bonus. 

 

I haven't read the book as it's not in our library system - bummer.

 

I have a history degree and a STEM degree, so I don't have anything against either types. 

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Haven't read the book.

 

Out of curiosity, what majors were considered acceptable? What universities were used?  And were they local or did the kids go away to school at 14?

 

I think it would be an unusual situation where this would work well--IMO, needing a right local university to fit the particular kids, and perhaps the larger family which would give some internal social structure separate from the university.

 

 

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My oldest is almost 16. She has 2 college classes done, and is currently enrolled in 3. I expect she will graduate high school with an Associates or be very, very close. If she wants to, she can then do only 2 years at a  4 year school. I wouldn't really mind if she chooses to go half-time or add a second major or a minor causing her to take a little longer.

 

I didn't put her in community college because I want her to graduate early; if anything, she's one who might need a little more time to launch. I enrolled her in cc because the classes are not that much more difficult than high school classes (she did take a high school level class there last semester - remedial Chemistry) because she doesn't do well in online classes, there are very few secular class options in my area, and she's outgrowing/fighting me as her teacher. So, cc was the easiest way to outsource. If she gets some college credit out of the deal, I consider it a bonus. 

 

I haven't read the book as it's not in our library system - bummer.

 

I have a history degree and a STEM degree, so I don't have anything against either types. 

 

If you have Kindle unlimited, you can read it for free. 

 

I think it totally makes sense to do the cc enrollment in HS. We have that option here, and I'd like my kids to take advantage of it.

 

Haven't read the book.

 

Out of curiosity, what majors were considered acceptable? What universities were used?  And were they local or did the kids go away to school at 14?

 

I think it would be an unusual situation where this would work well--IMO, needing a right local university to fit the particular kids, and perhaps the larger family which would give some internal social structure separate from the university.

 

 

The majors had to be ones that could provide income as a stand-alone degree. But I got the impression that meant an above-average income in a field with plentiful opportunities.

 

Every child went to community college in Mesa, then on to ASU. My understanding is that they were still at home through that time. They gave the example of how nerve-wracking it was to send their 17-year old across the country to study at Johns Hopkins.

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1. The child must be able to support himself with only that undergraduate degree (hence, a degree in history would have been forbidden, according to the authors), and 2. The chosen undergraduate degree must not hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work.

 

 

 

I have not read the book, but a) there are people with history degrees who can support themselves financially (for one, there are jobs that basically just ask that the applicant has a college degree, any college degree), and b) if you want to become a history professor, wouldn't a history degree be the most logical choice before applying to grad school for a history PhD? Wouldn't other degrees be more likely to hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work?

 

Basically, I think this is silliness. I wouldn't recommend a history degree to people who simply want w/e degree pays the most and don't have any particular interests, and it'd probably be best to combine it with at least some sort of minor that's more marketable, but still, it's not like all people who have history BS's are unemployed or making minimum wage.

Edited by luuknam
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I have not read the book, but a) there are people with history degrees who can support themselves financially (for one, there are jobs that basically just ask that the applicant has a college degree, any college degree), and b) if you want to become a history professor, wouldn't a history degree be the most logical choice before applying to grad school for a history PhD? Wouldn't other degrees be more likely to hinder their ability to move forward in post-graduate work?

 

Basically, I think this is silliness. I wouldn't recommend a history degree to people who simply want w/e degree pays the most and don't have any particular interests, and it'd probably be best to combine it with at least some sort of minor that's more marketable, but still, it's not like all people who have history BS's are unemployed or making minimum wage.

 

I'm not defending the authors' stance, but here is what they say on this topic:

 

"We had a back-and-forth conversation with each child about her or his undergraduate major and possible graduate studies. We steered the children toward degrees that suited their strengths and interests and that also would likely lead to successful employment. As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

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Or, the other way around, I'm sure that there are engineering or w/e grads who are unemployed or making minimum wage. There are just no guarantees. Being bright, motivated, and having the ability to communicate and present yourself well are probably going to be great assets in landing a job that pays decently. 

 

IF I were to have either of my kids attend college at 14, I would be involved in what classes they pick, for various reasons. Odds are I'd be involved if they were 18 as well, just because I've been to college and know some things they might not. Which doesn't mean I'd micromanage their choices, but I'd definitely want to discuss the pros/cons with a 14yo, and quite probably with an 18yo. I don't think I'd go to the level of calling what they're doing a "co-chosen" major. Of course, my kids aren't that old yet, so all of this is hypothetical, but I'm hoping to raise my kids to become independent adults, not my puppets. 

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For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

 

 

Yeah, see, I wouldn't go that far. For one, I don't think the career prospects of someone with a math bachelor's degree are that minimal, though a lot of the jobs would be quite different than the job of a math professor, so, I'd discuss whether the kid would be interested in other jobs like that if math professor were to not happen. Likewise, I'd explore something like public policy or a military academy with the kid who's interested in history, war, and governance and the like. Based on everything in this thread, I'm kind of skeptical if the girl really decided she was more interested in math and science or if she just got the message that history is just a hobby. 

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I'm not defending the authors' stance, but here is what they say on this topic:

 

"We had a back-and-forth conversation with each child about her or his undergraduate major and possible graduate studies. We steered the children toward degrees that suited their strengths and interests and that also would likely lead to successful employment. As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

And that there would make me put the book back on the shelf. I think there is a big difference between choosing college early because the child is prepared for it and dictating the path the child will choose in college. No problem with discussing the pros and cons of various degrees and career choices, but I don't agree with the thought that the end-goal is the job and the employment. Not my idea of the good life.

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It really isn't every child who can do this.  I have two bright boys: one was completing (and getting top marks on nationally-marked exams for) high-school work at 11.  He went to a world-top-three university at 17.  He had that odd combination of quickness, attention span, retentive memory and the ability to spin a theory out of very little that adds up to early academic success.  My other son could not have done those exams at that age: he had two of the four required qualities.  I didn't bring them up any differently, so far as I know, but they are not achieving at the same rate.  Second son has offers from very good universities, is taking a gap year, and will start at 19.

 

As for my first son?  I'm with Regentrude: if a child is highly or profoundly gifted, why not prepare them really well to enter a really excellent university at a roughly-normal age.

Edited by Laura Corin
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Being bright, motivated, and having the ability to communicate and present yourself well are probably going to be great assets in landing a job that pays decently. 

 

 

Also, not being picky, and being able to make connections between how the things you learned in college would be useful in the job you're applying to, even if the job doesn't scream "this is an obvious job for an x major". 

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On the subject of choosing a major for your child: with my son 'Calvin' I visited Warwick University, which has done intensive studies of which students drop out.  The most frequent commonality was having had the major chosen for you, or having chosen for reasons of practicality rather than passion.  Something to consider.

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On the subject of choosing a major for your child: with my son 'Calvin' I visited Warwick University, which has done intensive studies of which students drop out.  The most frequent commonality was having had the major chosen for you, or having chosen for reasons of practicality rather than passion.  Something to consider.

 

 

It's harder to drop out if you're a minor though, with parents monitoring your homework, and making sure you walk into your classroom and don't leave until the lecture is over, etc...  :leaving:

 

(I obviously think coercing your kid to that degree is a bad idea)

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I have known some families with 5+ kids where the kids are very similar in some ways.

 

Having five kids in one family do something doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t make it universal to me at all.

 

For me, my impression is that IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s working out for them, but itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not something that would fit my own kids.

 

I also donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think it would have worked out for me when I was young. But I can give them credit to assume they would adjust their plans if it wasnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t working out as well for one of their kids.

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It's harder to drop out if you're a minor though, with parents monitoring your homework, and making sure you walk into your classroom and don't leave until the lecture is over, etc...  :leaving:

 

(I obviously think coercing your kid to that degree is a bad idea)

 

There's more than one way of failing.  Most parents of a high school child knows the varieties of passive-aggressive mulishness that can occur...  I'd rather that all happen during high school rather than college.

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" As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited."

 

Contrary to their assertion, a math degree is one of the most flexible degrees out there and I would be thrilled if one of my kids chose to study math in undergrad.  Not that I'd have read their book anyway, but this anecdote speaks volumes about their knowledge and experience, which I find lacking.

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I guess if you thing this would be a good fit for your particular child(ren) family, it might help to start by looking at what is near you for community college: dual enrollment rules, degrees offered, transition into state university.   If you are extremely interested and your area would not work, I suppose you could move to Mesa or somewhere that would.

 

This would not work for us because 1) we don't have a close enough CC; 2) its dual enrollment rules probably would not allow for this; 3) my particular child would probably not have been ready for that at 14;    ...

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I have not read the book, nor would I b/c it is the antithesis of the goals we have for our kids.  So that is my qualifier.

 

We have deliberately made the decision to not graduate our kids early.  My 2 current college kids could easily have graduated early, as could of our oldest, BUT they would have missed out on so many wonderful opportunities AND they would have had to face adulthood earlier.  (Honestly, I am not sure why anyone wants to run forward to adulthood when they are still in their teens.)

 

What have our kids been able to achieve during high school at home?  Explore subjects that they had deep interest in which helped them really think about what they wanted to pursue as adults.  (I can't imagine expecting all 14 yr olds to be completely sure about their future career options.)  Take courses that have really mattered to them.

 

Some of my kids have been advanced, not because I advanced them, but bc that is who they are.  My college sr graduated from high school having taken 5 in major math and 5 in major physics courses at our local 4 yr university. His freshman yr of college he took 400 level electromagnetic wave theory.  B/c he was so advanced, he was awarded multiple scholarships and accepted into his university's elite research cohort.  He is attending college full ride.  He has been able to participate in several different research projects (both on his home campus and 2 at REUs in different areas. Participation in different projects mattered to him b/c it helped him narrow the field he wants to pursue in grad school.  (At 14, 15, 16......he wasn't thinking about these issues the same way and he was a very mature kid.)  He just turned 22 and is waiting to hear back from his grad school apps.  He has had 4 wonderful yrs of college.  He had the freedom to take lots of interesting courses outside of his majors (math and physics) bc he entered with so many credit hours.  Graduating high school at an advanced level has been absolutely nothing but positive for him.

 

My current college freshman was able to compete in Russian Olympiads during high school.  She was selected to represent the US in Moscow and received a fully paid trip to Moscow for the competition. She spent her sr yr researching Shakespeare and writing a capstone thesis (for her this was the epitome of fun.....she loved every minute of it.)  Her high school yrs full of completely interest-driven literature (fairy tales and cultures, Russian and French lit (French read in French), CS Lewis, etc.  She took numerous CLEP exams which her university accepted and entered as a college sophomore.  She was also awarded numerous scholarships and also selected for her university's top award which comes with all sorts of perks and privileges (and mentoring, etc).  She is also part of 10 students selected for a special French cohort.  For her......she had no idea what she wanted to due with her life at 14.  She still didn't at 17.  She is still wondering if she knows now at 19.  She attends just about every guest speaker's lecture in areas that interest her b/c she wants to make sure she is exploring her options.  (that is her thinking like an adult.....another very mature kid.....but at 14, no, she wouldn't have been analyzing these things in the same way (plus, mom would have had to provide the transportation!!)

 

FWIW, my current 16 yr old could NEVER have enrolled in college full time at 14.  Not even now at 16.  She is an extreme introvert and she is also easily made uncomfortable.  At 14 she would not have handled adult-content discussions that are pretty much going to happen in college freshman type classes.  She would have been mortified.  Now at 16, she would be very uncomfortable, but not to the same degree as she would have been at 14.  She also isn't advanced globally like her siblings.  There are definitely subjects she needs to work on at a high school level, not a college level.  Her oldest sister (not the one described above ETA: autocorrect changed that not into that.....need to clarify that this is a different sibling) was similar at her age.  The idea that early college is a good fit for all kids is ridiculous.  (I won't even go into a rant about kids with disabilities and thinking that they can just move along just like everyone else.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I have not read the book, but my brother graduated from college at seventeen. My parents did not push him at all. In fact, they were kind of asleep. When my brother was a freshman in high school a teacher noticed he was bright, recommended going to the university for some classes, and the university just absorbed him into their system. He excelled in this environment academically but had no social life. 

 

While he was in graduate school he had a bit of an awakening (Friendships! Love!) and felt that lots of really bright people went to high school, and he could have been academically stimulated while still getting to be a kid. He felt that he missed childhood, missed being able to make mistakes, to develop, to play sports, to have a girlfriend, etc. Even though I always felt that I lived in his shadow (the average little sister of the exceptional older brother), he told me many times as an adult that he envied my much more rambling pathway to adulthood. 

 

Obviously this isn't the experience of every person who goes to college young, and it's not the same as taking a few classes at the community college, but I think it's worth remembering that there is no hurry and there are important ways that adolescents are developing that are not academic. 

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" In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

 

WTF?

 

We'd be in a lot of trouble as a civilization if everyone majored in math and science. We NEED people knowledgable about things like governance and war!!!

 

I kind of hate these parents. 

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Obviously this isn't the experience of every person who goes to college young, and it's not the same as taking a few classes at the community college, but I think it's worth remembering that there is no hurry and there are important ways that adolescents are developing that are not academic. 

 

Absolutely!

 

 

WTF?

 

We'd be in a lot of trouble as a civilization if everyone majored in math and science. We NEED people knowledgable about things like governance and war!!!

 

I kind of hate these parents. 

 

 

Heeee, heeeee!  :laugh:

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Like most of you I have not read the book.

 

While I can imagine that many kids could handle advanced college content earlier, the point of driving your own education is what I see missing here.

 

I also think that I wouldn't hire a 21-year-old lawyer whose parents had basically chosen their profession (assuming two years post grad to get a JD). Or an engineer. Then again, I have had bad experiences hiring people with no work experience and no life experience, who are basically really good at school primarily because they could focus 100% of their own and their parents' energy on school. That doesn't tell me enough about how you work.

 

That said, that applies to any kid coddled through private school to private school whose parents drive their entire educational path (versus, driving choice and deliberation, which is different--I'm all about opportunity).

 

I personally think that the early dual enrollment path, with basically a free college associates (including, in our state, flagship-U approved courses) is the most I'd recommend to all but the most highly exceptional person on an academic path.

 

Also, as someone with a lucrative philosophy degree that is making me as much as I need it to make with additional low-cost technical certifications, I think their idea of economically viable is stupid.

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You know, there is plenty of time in life to worry about making money to support a family. Age 15 isn't that time. For crying out loud, let your teen take classes on whatever interests them! Let them learn! 

 

Ugh, the entire idea upsets me. I hate the trend to force that kind of adult responsibility and thinking on teenagers. 

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It really isn't every child who can do this.  I have two bright boys: one was completing (and getting top marks on nationally-marked exams for) high-school work at 11.  He went to a world-top-three university at 17...

 

The difference to me is that a highly gifted child entering university, top or not, one year early is very impressive but far from unheard of. The child will still be 21 upon graduation.

 

But it sounds like they are describing kids entering university at fourteen, i.e. four years early, which is beyond impressive. It's incomprehensible without parental scaffolding except in incredible circumstances.

 

And I think the quality of the education depends more on the ability of the kid to really process (rather than semi-process and repeat) the level of information, than on the university. For a highly gifted child, going to a top university would be an advantage; going to a top university at 14 would not provide the same level of education.

 

For a bright and properly supported child, even going to a state U or CC at 14 would likewise not provide the same education for them, as it would at 17.

 

Lots of non-gifted kids around here go to CC at 16, enter our flagship U or well-regarded privates at 18 in their junior year. Even that is young. It's not the content they are not getting but the ability to connect it to bigger themes in life, which you just don't get when mom and dad make all the decisions and pay all the bills. It's still free college and I'm still going to strongly suggest it as an option for my kids.

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... We feel our children are accomplished not because they are geniuses but because their environment prepared them to learn and to do well and because we provided the opportunities for them to maximize their potential . . . We have seen so many families that have had uneven results with their children. Our children's consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

:eek:

 

Ug. "One size fits all" theorists.   :ack2:

 

That's such a gigantic and fallacious assumption -- that other homeschoolers who have schooled throughout all the years with multiple children who are NOT graduating college at age 18, were NOT "providing opportunities to maximize their children's potential" or are providing an inconsistent "educational environment" so they ended up with "uneven results" with their children. How presumptive!

 

This SOOOOO makes me think of childless people with superior attitudes telling a parent that "if you just did ______, your child wouldn't have that problem."

 

Rather than boasting and telling people "how we did it" (which implies, "so should you"), these parents should be on their knees in gratitude that they did not have any of a number of issues that would have thrown their plans and assumptions out the window: 

 

- loss of job or income supporting the family (and which pays for that "educational environment")

- severe illness, injury, or even death of one of the family members

- child with hearing, speech, or sight disabilities

- child dealing with learning disabilities

- child dealing with autism or processing disorders

- child struggling with mental illness

- etc.!!!

 

 

And as for "co-choosing" a child's college major by "forbidding" what YOU don't see as financially viable...  :scared:

Edited by Lori D.
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My niece will graduate from Dartmouth when she's 20.  She has thrived there and it has been a wonderful experience for her.  Her mom (my SIL) died after a very long battle with breast cancer soon after she turned 13 so she had to grow up pretty quickly.  She plans on going to law school and is studying for the LSAT now.

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I agree.  But I have seen this sentiment on this forum. . .  

 

I'm not going to fund an adult to not perform or to study something that is not economically viable at all. I have limited funds and if a kid decides to study something that has an average salary on graduation at or below the poverty level, or to study at a level which would not demonstrate proficiency in that subject well enough to be employed or go on to further study, I'd much rather just pay the taxes on that money and then help them get a down payment on a very small house or condo, so they can pursue their dream or lack thereof in relative housing security.

 

While I disagree on what it means to be financially viable, I don't disagree that you should pay for college as an economic investment. 

 

On the other hand, and this is a big difference, I think kids should explore in their high school years. So you try out many things. You have a chance to think through what it means to really focus on art. You get a chance to join the marching band on a trip to Disneyworld and take trips and take four years of French and enjoy sculpture class and go on little road trips and so on (even if you are in dual enrollment).

 

You can take a junior year abroad.

 

The parents in this situation have done something that has some unintended or intended consequences:

 

* Far less exploration in the teen years (versus, not paying for as much of the exploration in the 20s)

* No financial aid for a second bachelor's if they change their mind late in their 20s (whereas, if I said "no I won't fund an art degree but here is a down payment so you have locked-in rent on a condo", at 25, the kid can apply for a Pell Grant to study whatever they want because you can get your first bachelor's degree on Pell)

* The child cannot say "that's fine, I'll major in whatever I want because I'm going to work for it." Instead, the kid MUST get a bachelor's degree in the parents' choice as they are under 18. That seems harsh. There isn't the option of sucking it up and working your butt off because you aren't even allowed to work full time in many places until 18!

 

Conditional funding of an adult lifestyle is harsh compared to what rich people can afford for their kids, and I get that.

 

I don't think it's the same as planning your kids' electives in high school.

Edited by Tsuga
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Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.

 

The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.

I haven't read the book but I have a high proportion of Korean friends and for many, this was common practice in their family. Many have said "yeah I wanted to study English Lit but that wasn't allowed in my house. I could choose from z, y or z" typically medicine/dentistry/engineering/ etc. They all have said their families did such a great thing for them. All but one of these people were brick and mortar students and spent a ton of time after schooling and weekend schooling. Not one of my personal circle sees their upbringing as bad and has instilled similar expectations on their own kids.

 

I think we all have to do what we believe is right for our family, based on our shared familial culture and beliefs. I think the book sounds interesting and that is pretty neat for their family. I plan to read it.

 

While I don't think career is everything, it certainly opens doors, provides comfort and a better overall life for a family. Sometimes someone's passion doesn't make a great career and after awhile every job becomes just a job so if it comes with a high income all the better. I wouldn't discourage my child from a passion but I would have a serious conversation about their path. Kids are often making lifelong decisions about their futures by declaring a major at age 20 long before their brain has fully formed its executive functioning capabilities. Sometimes that feels more bonkers to me than a parent, who has nurtured skills into their child and knows them, helping them choose.

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I realized that the way I explained salary on graduation is not clear.

 

I meant, if the average salary is at or below poverty level, for a given profession, I don't know if I'd pay cash for that degree.

 

Not, if it had a poverty-to-average salary, which would include a teacher's salary, or a nurse's salary.

 

In addition, I wouldn't oppose my kids going into those fields. They'd just have to get a scholarship or work for it, and I would support that in a more economically viable way, as I said, using the money for a down payment or something.

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Here is a quote from the book: "One comment we hear a lot when people learn about our children's educational attainments is that they must be geniuses. We feel our children are accomplished not because they are geniuses but because their environment prepared them to learn and to do well and because we provided the opportunities for them to maximize their potential . . . We have seen so many families that have had uneven results with their children. Our children's consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

As for your #2, I personally don't have an answer. My oldest is 10, so that's partly why I'm wondering how this all actually works for the rest of us.

LOL It sounds as if they are certainly taking credit for their children's accomplishments.

 

Edit: punctuation

Edited by Sandwalker
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But it sounds like they are describing kids entering university at fourteen, i.e. four years early, which is beyond impressive. It's incomprehensible without parental scaffolding except in incredible circumstances.

 

 

 

 

When I asked OP what school the kids in the book family went to, it sounded like the answer was Mesa Community College (Arizona) at 14.

 

If we had a similar community college in our area, with rules that would allow easy dual enrollment,  I think a lot of kids could probably manage that.  Whether a lot should or not, I don't know.  But it is a moot point since in our area, and I assume this is true for many homeschoolers, there is not a similar nearby option.

 

I don't think they are talking about extremely gifted kids in the book.  But they also probably are not talking about ones with LD's or other issues.  It sounds like they have a fairly homogeneous group of kids who were well-suited to the plan they chose.  The educational environment likely played a part, but so too very likely did other factors like genetics.

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I haven't read the book but I have a high proportion of Korean friends and for many, this was common practice in their family. Many have said "yeah I wanted to study English Lit but that wasn't allowed in my house. I could choose from z, y or z" typically medicine/dentistry/engineering/ etc. They all have said their families did such a great thing for them. All but one of these people were brick and mortar students and spent a ton of time after schooling and weekend schooling. Not one of my personal circle sees their upbringing as bad and has instilled similar expectations on their own kids.

 

I think we all have to do what we believe is right for our family, based on our shared familial culture and beliefs. I think the book sounds interesting and that is pretty neat for their family. I plan to read it.

 

While I don't think career is everything, it certainly opens doors, provides comfort and a better overall life for a family. Sometimes someone's passion doesn't make a great career and after awhile every job becomes just a job so if it comes with a high income all the better. I wouldn't discourage my child from a passion but I would have a serious conversation about their path. Kids are often making lifelong decisions about their futures by declaring a major at age 20 long before their brain has fully formed its executive functioning capabilities. Sometimes that feels more bonkers to me than a parent, who has nurtured skills into their child and knows them, helping them choose.

 

And dh's Filipino family are all very bitter about that.  Especially now that they see that the grandkids are allowed to follow their passion and they weren't. 

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Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.

 

The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.

 

3 doctors, students at Johns Hopkins and MIT...these things do not describe the average family or average student. I wouldn't expect many families at all to be able to have similar results. It's fine for them to say that anyone who wants to set high goals can send their kids to college at 14, but I find it an unrealistic expectation, if not unhealthy for a good number of students. Read it with interest (as I read their story, though not their book, with interest years ago), but don't think this is a potential "typical, within reach, if only..." type of scenario. This is a unique, unusual, highly unlikely scenario that worked in one family with the right combination of drive, kids' personalities, and giftings. 

 

As for me--I thoroughly enjoyed the teen years, watching my kids grow and become young people, spending time with them, allowing them time to explore and ask questions, seeing them grow in character and in their faith--I have no desire to have done things differently, and count it an honor and a blessing that we were able to continue homeschooling those years. 

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