Math tutor, mathnasium, ???

[lgliser]

One of my 11 year olds is doing 5th grade CLE math. She's "ok" at it, but is often in tears. She really takes a while to grasp concepts sometimes. I think she's a lot like I was - she doesn't have a true understanding, she just goes through the motions to get it done. I think Prodigy math has her at a 3rd grade level, which I only just noticed and it really shocked and saddened me!

 

I am still not great at math myself so I am not good at helping her, so DH has taken over. He does better than me but she gets stubborn and is hard to teach... like she really doesn't want to learn, she just wants to be done with the assignment.

 

I feel like she either needs a different curriculum (which is a bummer because I really like CLE) or a tutor. I think I've heard that mathnasium is really thorough and would probably truly help her, but I know it's very pricey.

 

And I'm not sure how to even find a tutor. I mean, maybe there's a teen of a friend or something but I'm not sure if a teen could get in depth enough for her, ya know?

 

Any suggestions?

Edited January 26, 2018 by lgliser

[Kiara.I]

Hmmm.

Do you have any suspicion that she might have dyscalculia?

 

CLE is often recommended to help with gaps in struggling math students. But that doesn't seem to be helping her.

 

What about trying Rightstart's Activities for the AL Abacus program?

 

Can she subitize, that is, see how many at a glance without counting (up to five, anyway)?

Can she break numbers apart and handle then on her head? Like does she know all the pairs that make ten?

 

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[fralala]

I actually think it's incredibly common for parents and teachers to overestimate kids' math learning. It's not unusual at all for kids to be able to work at a certain level but only demonstrate knowledge up to another. (At least, so say my teacher friends who are frustrated and worried by their kids' test scores.)

 

One thing I'd wonder is whether your child is stubborn and hard to teach not because she really doesn't want to learn, but because she's embarrassed that her parent will see all the things she doesn't know and the mistakes that she makes? That seems to be so true for one of mine, but it appears that she is unwilling to even try and doesn't care at all.

 

If so, I'd think your inclination to get a tutor is a good one. Do you have a good library? Ours has a free tutoring program one day a week run by teens, and the good part of that is that it helps kids see that they are not the only ones struggling. (It also helps homeschooled kids see they are not the only ones who have to do math despite struggling.) There are also a lot of people who tutor kids 1:1 in math at our library; you can find their info. on the bulletin boards. Many are teachers.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

Yep, what the others said.

 

1.  She may be stubborn and hard to teach because she really is missing a lot of critical pieces and either doesn't want anyone to think she is stupid or is terrified that she really is stupid.  Better to either avoid the subject or simply make it look like she is stubborn.  In other words, the cart got before the horse.  Math is hard for her so she fights it which makes it look like she has a bad attitude which she does because MATH IS HARD for her.  Think about it.  If you were repeatedly asked to do something that you could KIND of do but every little bit of it took a ton of effort and was still confusing and by the next day you had forgotten half of it and you had to do this daily for years, wouldn't you get a bad attitude?

 

2.  HIring someone to help will only help if they stop worrying about her grade/age and truly dig in and go back far enough to find where the disconnect started.  If that means going all the way back to basic subitization skills then so be it.  

 

3.  I just finished pulling DD out of tutoring at Mathnasium.  They could NOT grasp going slowly and meeting the student where they are at.  This will depend on the student and the tutor, though.  DS is doing really well.

 

Gotta run but yes I agree with a lot of what has already been posted.  If your child is CRYING during math lessons then don't blame the child.  Please.  The materials or the approach or maybe something else (like dyscalculia) are almost always the issue,IMHO.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Edited January 26, 2018 by OneStepAtATime

[OneStepAtATime]

ETA:  Also, she may be in fight or flight mode, making it harder to think. 

 

Have you seen this?  PeterPan posted it on another thread regarding anxiety.  It might have some relevance.  

https://www.heysigmund.com/anxiety-in-children-things-kids-say-that-could-mean-im-anxious/

[lgliser]

 

 

Do you have any suspicion that she might have dyscalculia?

Can she subitize, that is, see how many at a glance without counting (up to five, anyway)?

Can she break numbers apart and handle then on her head? Like does she know all the pairs that make ten?

I don't know... I'll have to research dyscalculia. I just asked her for the numbers that make 10 and she was able to do that just fine. She can subitize, yes.

 

 

 

One thing I'd wonder is whether your child is stubborn and hard to teach not because she really doesn't want to learn, but because she's embarrassed that her parent will see all the things she doesn't know and the mistakes that she makes? 

Yes - I definitely think you're right. I think she is just more embarrassed and frustrated. She likes to do well!

 

 

 

Can you give more examples on where she’s struggling? 

Place value, subtracting mixed fractions, word problems of all sorts. I remember having such a hard time with word problems myself!

 

 

 

My point of reposting here is if you think this is similar to your dd, please do not be afraid to back your dd up to an earlier grade in math. Do not let pride, fear of what other people will think, or anything else- on her part, or your part- dissuade you from taking her back to get that solid foundation. It is not a race, and there is nowhere she's "supposed to be." She's supposed to be where she's at, if that makes sense. It was a very difficult mindset for me to come out of the "school" mindest- without feeling like we were behind, but I finally realized we weren't behind. It just was what it was. And lo and behold she caught up once we went backwards. 

Love this - thank you SO much!

 

 

 

1.  She may be stubborn and hard to teach because she really is missing a lot of critical pieces and either doesn't want anyone to think she is stupid or is terrified that she really is stupid.  Better to either avoid the subject or simply make it look like she is stubborn.  In other words, the cart got before the horse.  Math is hard for her so she fights it which makes it look like she has a bad attitude which she does because MATH IS HARD for her.  Think about it.  If you were repeatedly asked to do something that you could KIND of do but every little bit of it took a ton of effort and was still confusing and by the next day you had forgotten half of it and you had to do this daily for years, wouldn't you get a bad attitude?

Totally. I was just like her as a kid. And I'm not even upset about her frustration - I completely understand how she feels!

 

 

 

3.  I just finished pulling DD out of tutoring at Mathnasium.  They could NOT grasp going slowly and meeting the student where they are at.  This will depend on the student and the tutor, though.  DS is doing really well.

Good to know. I feel like I would just follow someone's lead, so it's good to hear that I need to really pay attention and make sure they are doing what SHE needs.

 

 

 

If your child is CRYING during math lessons then don't blame the child.  Please.  The materials or the approach or maybe something else (like dyscalculia) are almost always the issue,IMHO.

Ya, again, not at all! I am hoping to figure out whatever we need to do for her. 

 

I think backing up is a great idea.

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird has a starting point book for kids who are older learners with some background. Overcoming Difficulties with Number: Supporting Dyscalculia and Students who Struggle with Maths

 

Ok, here's the thing. That place value gig really can be math disability or even just crunchability. Or it can be ADHD or executive function or working memory or sequencing. But the word problems, that's a bit different. So try the Ronit Bird book or some MUS for the math concepts. RB will be more detailed intervention, so that's why I'm saying go for that. But for the word problems, you need to back up and let her see the LANGUAGE and how the language and the math connect.

 

Daily Warm-Ups: Problem Solving Math Grade 3

This is an example, but just look through the major publishers like Carson Dellosa, Teacher Created, Evan-Moor, Scholastic, etc. and find some things. You want things that take their time, letting her really see how the language of math and the visualization of it and the solving of it merge. I actually use products like this with my ds with math SLD and I REALLY LIKE THEM. 

 

I would not keep trying the same way, but I think trying a tutor is only going to work out only as well as the tutor is a good fit. Personally, I'm a huge fan of evals. Everybody on the board knows that and is bored with that, lol. Like I'd like to spend $3k of your hard-earned money and get some good psych testing and maybe an SLP eval and actually know why. But you don't have to do that. I'm just suggesting that if you have enough little flags waving in your parental mind, now would be a good time.

[Kiara.I]

 

 

Place value, subtracting mixed fractions, word problems of all sorts. I remember having such a hard time with word problems myself!

 

Okay, what parts of place value? Does she understand and handle easily ones, tens and hundreds? And get lost on higher numbers?

I love the way Rightstart teaches place value. They have place value cards up to thousands. Then for higher numbers you only use hundreds and down, so that it comes in the groups of three (periods) that when written would be separated with commas.

 

They also have little cards with pictures of chives on them. One cube for one, a line of ten for ten, a flat for a hundred, and a large cube for 1000. Children literally build the numbers, and then compose them using the place value cards.

 

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[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, I struggled a lot with math when I was in school but I don't consider myself as having something like dyscalculia.  Maybe if you think of it on a spectrum perhaps I do but I don't have the same struggles that DD does and she has an official diagnosis of dyscalculia.  But math really was a struggle for me.

 

Why?  Well, I think at its basic core my struggles developed because I was forced to follow with a public school schedule of approaching math.  I needed to go at a much slower pace, I needed a lot of spiral review AND ALSO I needed to stick with one topic to mastery.  Just spiral or just mastery would not have worked.  Just doing a topic for a bit then not returning to it for months did not work, either.  I also would have done better if someone had worked through different approaches, including manipulatives, practical application, conceptual AND algorithmic.  I needed it all.  I didn't know that then but now that I have been working with my own kids, especially with my daughter for whom math is a HUGE mountain to climb, doing those things with her finally helped me to solidify a lot of things that had never truly gelled before.

 

I have hired many tutors over the years.  My kids have had a lot of different teachers, too.  Only ONE, in all these years, truly helped DD.  She worked at a school specifically for kids with learning challenges.  She was excellent.  Within 2 days she had a stronger grasp of my daughter's strengths and weaknesses than her regular teacher at school (who had had DD for 3 years straight and had no clue how to help her).  The special teacher determined where DD was at, tried various methods for approaching math, determined which ones were working and which made no sense to her and for that 5 weeks we were there DD made a lot of progress.  If we could have stayed I would have done it in a heartbeat.  We couldn't stay.  I have never found anyone else that did what she did.

 

My point is that yes you may try to hire an outside tutor but there is a good chance you will have to try out several to find one that might sort of meet your child's needs.  I strongly encourage you to meet with them yourself first.  Explain your concerns, be VERY clear that you want her to understand the material and to feel good about math again, not to just check boxes.  Make it clear that your child is working HARD but it isn't sticking and you want her to gain back some confidence in a POSITIVE environment. Have the tutor discuss with you how they approach struggling students.  Have them show you materials they use.  If it is all worksheets and drills, run.  If they immediately brag about how they can get your child back in grade level material right away, run.  Don't even drag your child to meet this person.  Interview and get a feel for at least a couple of different ones.  If there is one that seems o.k. then bring your child.  Give a trial period.  Encourage the tutor to incorporate "fun" math to help bring some joy back into this process and hopefully shut down the fight or flight mode she is probably cycling through.  Then see how it goes.  Pay attention to how your child responds.  Their body language.  Do they seem engaged?  Are they coming home excited about "light bulb" moments?  Or are they dreading the tutoring sessions?  If your child is suffering, pull them out.  

 

You might look at Wyzant if you have that in your area.  You can find tutors that have already had background checks, you can communicate with them, see reviews, see what subjects they specialize in, etc.