Questions about switching from MM to CLE math in 4th grade

[redquilthorse]

I think I want to switch from Math Mammoth to CLE math for my 4th grader, but I have questions for experienced CLE users. I gave him the placement test to jump into CLE 400, but he did not get enough correct (it wasn't close).  I looked at the placement test for starting 300, and there are lots of things I know that he knows, but other things he will not know like the geometry and fractions. I can't decide whether to start him in 200 and just skip things he knows or start with 301 and use it to teach the sections he does not know, adding outside sources when needed. Or should we start somewhere in the mid-200s? What do others suggest?

 

I am hesitant to just buy all of 200 and try to accelerate because I don't want him to get any farther behind than he already is. We follow the regular school year and are part of a PSP that requires standardized testing. Last year, he did not score well on the math sections. I have seen that he is struggling with math since last year. We were originally using BJU from kindergarten through 3rd, but switched to MM halfway through 3rd grade last year, hoping it would help him grasp the concepts better. This worked for some topics but not others. Then I noticed he would seem to master a topic only to forget it and not be able to do it when it came up later. And he really has a hard time memorizing his math facts. I think for this child, a spiral program is needed. And CLE looks like one that I can actually teach. But if we have to go all the way back to 200, I just don't think we can do it. 

 

I think he is probably a grade level behind overall. Not because we didn't do the work - he just doesn't seem to be able to retain/grasp enough to work at the 4th grade level. This is true for other subjects as well. But going back to 200 would probably be too far back. 

 

I could really use guidance from others who have made the switch, especially from math mammoth. Thank you!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

 

Honestly this will depend on what is causing him to struggle.  If he has dyscalculia then starting with 201 may be the best option, along with using something like the Ronit Bird books.  Rushing him through to stay on grade level may not even be possible. 

 

If he doesn't have profound math issues like that then I would suggest the following:

 

 

1. Buy the TM for the 200s, light unit 201 and 205 plus the TM for the 300s along with 301.  Also, get the CLE flash cards and math reference chart if you can swing them.  Use the recommended review format in the TM for math facts.  Let him use the math fact chart for lessons.  Do math fact review separately (as recommended by CLE).
2. Run him through 201 to solidify any basic weak areas (sometimes the issue is that a student is actually really weak on some basic math concepts that the parent isn't even aware they never really understood).  
3. After he does 201, use the TM for the 200s to teach him any material he has not had from 202-204.  Do the new material for 202-204 on a dry erase board.  Build in your own review.  Do new concepts plus 3-4 review problems every day until he has made it through 204. You could probably cover 2-3 lessons a day.
4. Do Light Unit 205.  If he does well with it then you may be able to move him into 301.
5.   Start him on 301.  Use the TM from the 200s to cover any concepts he is struggling with or has not had yet as he moves through 301.  It will give you additional problems you can use.  Move as slowly as needed through 301 so that he is solid.
6. At that point hopefully he can just use the rest of the 300's. 
7. Building a solid base, even if you have to move a bit slowly, will usually make it possible to accelerate later but rushing the base frequently means higher level math becomes a huge mountain to get over.
8. If he is really struggling, though, I would consider the possibility that he might be dealing with something like dyscalculia.  He may need something along the lines of the Ronit Bird books or ebooks to solidify weak number understanding.

Edited January 22, 2018 by OneStepAtATime

[redquilthorse]

I don’t think he has dyscalculia - I just read about it and it doesn’t describe him for the most part. I do think he probably has ADHD. And he is generally a bit spacey and easily distracted with school work. He is able to add up to 3 digits and mostly subtract the same. When he doesn’t know a multiplication fact he adds in his head. He still makes mistakes in calculation even if he gets the concept and the algorithm. So some of what he needs is more practice with everything than he has been getting. He catches on to new concepts fairly quickly but then forgets. And some of the alternative strategies in MM go over his head (mine too!). He does need to back up and relearn things, just probably not all of what is in 200.

 

Your suggestions are really helpful - I hadn’t thought of buying the TM for 200 and just doing those two light units to start.

[redquilthorse]

I would add that he just finished the Level 200 placement test and got 65 correct. Instructions say he is ready for level 300 if he gets more than 55 correct. He missed all of the measures questions (we haven’t covered that for a long time). He surprised me with how much he could do. The test for 200 is significantly easier than the one for 300. I still like your idea for getting the TM for 200 in case we run into things he doesn’t know in 300.

[redquilthorse]

If I have a good set of flashcards do I need the CLE ones? I have separate sets of these for addition, subtraction, multiplication and division (this is just the multiplication set): https://www.amazon.com/Star-Education-Multiplication-Flash-Facts-169/dp/B016YWH3C0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1516655976&sr=8-3&keywords=flash+cards+multiplication

 

The multiplication set has all facts 0-12

Edited January 22, 2018 by redquilthorse

[alisoncooks]

We've used CLE, MM, & BJU.

 

With my oldest, we ended up leaving CLE because the lessons started getting really long around Math 4 or 5. That said, we did like the style. If I were you, I'd start with 300 and just teach the things he doesn't know as you come across them.

 

My youngest has been using Math Mammoth this year, and we just made the switch to BJU. :p

 

The CLE flashcards are numbered/organized by lesson.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Love CLE for kids who need reminders. I'd get 302 (301 is review of 200) I'd focus on what he is weak in and only do a small amount of the "we remember" review section of what he does know and focus on the concepts he is weaker on.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[redquilthorse]

We've used CLE, MM, & BJU.

 

With my oldest, we ended up leaving CLE because the lessons started getting really long around Math 4 or 5. That said, we did like the style. If I were you, I'd start with 300 and just teach the things he doesn't know as you come across them.

 

My youngest has been using Math Mammoth this year, and we just made the switch to BJU. :p

 

The CLE flashcards are numbered/organized by lesson.

 

It sounds like we have done things in reverse order.  :001_smile: This is my third and middle child who is having trouble - my oldest is in high school and used BJU until prealgebra, then we switched to video based teaching (Chalkdust). We took a couple of detours through Abeka and MM for him, but ended up quickly going back to BJU every time. My second oldest did BJU until we switched to MM last year for him in 6th. He asked for something harder, so I thought MM would be slightly more challenging for him and it was. When he switched, I switched all four of my elementary kids just to make my life easier. But it's just not working out for my middle son. We are still using MM for my younger two kids this year because it's going fine for them, but I'm not sure what I will do next year. I have tried to keep my elementary kids in the same math series, but I think I can't do that anymore.  All this is to say that BJU is a good series for most kids, as is MM. Some like one or the other better, but they're both good. Hopefully BJU works out for you!

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. only have a moment but with your update and his results I would start with 301 to go through as a quick review.  I love how the first light unit of each level is set up as review of previous levels.  Gives a really good overview, fills in any gaps, and can be done relatively quickly.  It is easy to work through areas of strength at a faster rate or even skip those areas altogether but spend more time on areas of weakness or areas that were not covered in a previous curriculum.  There should be enough explanation in the TM for 300s to help you so you probably don't even need the TM for 200s.  If it is something you feel better having, though, then sure.

 

As for not really doing well with measurement, I would not worry about that at all.  It will be reviewed many times.  Let him use the math fact chart during regular lessons and work on internalizing the measurements separately, in short lessons.  I would recommend simply using measurement in daily life in an intentional fashion.  

 

As for the flashcards, I too had a ton of flashcards.  Frankly, I am still grateful I bought the ones through CLE.  The addition/subtraction cards are organized in a very specific and targeted fashion.  I found that the CLE cards were better, by far, than any we had used because of that organization.  I could have made other flash cards work but it was a lot of effort and I just didn't have the mental energy.  The CLE addition/subtraction cards are so carefully organized in a kind of file box system with little file tabs.  Each Light unit lesson has the needed flashcards for THAT SPECIFIC LESSON listed at the top of the lesson.  You go to the file box, find the correct tab, and just pull out what is needed for that day.  Once your student is done you quickly refile them.  The next day will be a different set of cards.  Short sweet, but very effective. 

 

I actually like the multiplication/division cards for CLE better than the others we had had, too, but they are not organized the same way and frankly you really could use other sets for multiplication/division if you wanted to.

 

Also, I wanted to mention that at the end of each light unit are math fact drills.  Neither of my kids did well with timed drills.  I modified the drills.  Instead of trying to answer as many math facts as possible within one minute they answered all of them and timed how they did.  They recorded their times and compared their times to themselves, tracking their speed over all.  It relieved a lot of the anxiety and it helped them to focus on correct answers not slap dashing something onto the page.  I also started out doing it orally because my son is dysgraphic and could not write accurately while also trying to remember the answer.

 

HTH

[redquilthorse]

O.k. only have a moment but with your update and his results I would start with 301 to go through as a quick review.  I love how the first light unit of each level is set up as review of previous levels.  Gives a really good overview, fills in any gaps, and can be done relatively quickly.  It is easy to work through areas of strength at a faster rate or even skip those areas altogether but spend more time on areas of weakness or areas that were not covered in a previous curriculum.  There should be enough explanation in the TM for 300s to help you so you probably don't even need the TM for 200s.  If it is something you feel better having, though, then sure.

 

As for not really doing well with measurement, I would not worry about that at all.  It will be reviewed many times.  Let him use the math fact chart during regular lessons and work on internalizing the measurements separately, in short lessons.  I would recommend simply using measurement in daily life in an intentional fashion.  

 

As for the flashcards, I too had a ton of flashcards.  Frankly, I am still grateful I bought the ones through CLE.  The addition/subtraction cards are organized in a very specific and targeted fashion.  I found that the CLE cards were better, by far, than any we had used because of that organization.  I could have made other flash cards work but it was a lot of effort and I just didn't have the mental energy.  The CLE addition/subtraction cards are so carefully organized in a kind of file box system with little file tabs.  Each Light unit lesson has the needed flashcards for THAT SPECIFIC LESSON listed at the top of the lesson.  You go to the file box, find the correct tab, and just pull out what is needed for that day.  Once your student is done you quickly refile them.  The next day will be a different set of cards.  Short sweet, but very effective. 

 

I actually like the multiplication/division cards for CLE better than the others we had had, too, but they are not organized the same way and frankly you really could use other sets for multiplication/division if you wanted to.

 

Also, I wanted to mention that at the end of each light unit are math fact drills.  Neither of my kids did well with timed drills.  I modified the drills.  Instead of trying to answer as many math facts as possible within one minute they answered all of them and timed how they did.  They recorded their times and compared their times to themselves, tracking their speed over all.  It relieved a lot of the anxiety and it helped them to focus on correct answers not slap dashing something onto the page.  I also started out doing it orally because my son is dysgraphic and could not write accurately while also trying to remember the answer.

 

HTH

Thank you! This is very helpful. 

[angelmama1209]

When we switched from MM to CLE, all 3 of my kids had to drop back a grade level. For lessons they already know, I just have them do the teaching part for review, then we skip the We Remember and go to the next lesson. Sometimes we'll do 3 or 4 lessons in a day and 1 We Remember section. For the We Remember section, I only require them to do about half, which I circle for them. If they struggle on a quiz or test, they go back and do more We Remember.