Handwriting for 9yo?

[Seeking Squirrels]

My DD9 has SPD and has always been slightly behind with all things writing due to fine motor control. She has improved SO MUCH this year, but writing is still hard for her. I dictate sentences every day for spelling and she can now do 3 sentences, 4 on a really good day if I've let her do the rest of the lesson orally (she started the year struggling with 1). For her writing program she's been asking to do it on the computer instead and that results in much less resistance.

 

She has had some cursive instruction. We did a little bit in 2nd grade and they did it last year for 3rd in PS. This year we have cursive on our schedule, but we rarely get to it. At this point, do I continue pushing that or let it go? How necessary is continued handwriting instruction at this age for a child who struggles and will likely turn to mostly electronic writing? Is there any benefit to having her do just a single side of a page once a week just to keep *something* going or does it really need regular practice to be effective? 

 

I don't want to be skipping something important, but I also don't want to be stressing out over one more thing to make her write if it's unnecessary. 

[Lecka]

I don’t have an opinion on keeping or dropping:

 

But if you keep — I would suggest doing a small amount a day (like one line) and not doing once a week. I think once a week might keep her from forgetting or let you see if she starts to forget. But I think a very small amount of daily practice would be a lot better than weekly.

 

But I think it’s acceptable to drop it, too. I think it can depend on your personal preferences and on things like her stress/frustration level. That’s just my opinion if you do decide to keep it.

 

Edit: my son would forget letter formations without some minimal, fairly frequent review, so that is background for my opinion. I do think it’s better to keep up really minimal practice than to risk forgetting letter formations. But a lot of kids don’t need this, they aren’t going to forget their letter formations.

 

I think keep in mind the chance she could get worse though. Possibilities are that she gets worse, stays the same, or gets better.

 

You could see no difference if you quit practicing, or you could see her handwriting get worse.

 

If you keep practicing, you could see no difference, or improvement. But no difference could be good compared to getting worse.

 

I think you can see this a little if you try once a week for a while and see if she stays the same, and go from there. I don’t think you even have to do that — but I think it’s something to consider.

 

Better than not stressing about it and then having it be a surprise — this happened to me once, and it was really okay in the long run, but I felt foolish for not considering it could happen.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Lecka

[Seeking Squirrels]

Thank you for your input. I hadn't considered regression. I will definitely keep up the writing sentences for spelling, so I don't think her handwriting in general would regress, but cursive could. I'm not sure how much I'm worried about that. On the one hand I do think it's important to have a basic knowledge of, to be able to read it and sign things. But I also don't see her as wanting to write much on paper ever, so being fully comfortable writing in it is not necessarily a goal. At this point she is still copying individual letters and words. She can't just write in it on her own. So there honestly wouldn't be very far to regress. I wonder if it could be caught right back up in a few years when she is more confident with writing in general. 

[Lecka]

I have heard of kids making good progress at an older age.

 

My 12-year-old has lost cursive but he could get it back. It just doesn’t stay for him. He has problems with letter formation and he did an OT cursive program to try to help his print letter formation (and also see if maybe he did better with cursive — he didn’t). He did cursive for I think 3 years and he never got to where he could read cursive easily. It’s not a big deal. He can type. He has functional writing for when he must. It’s not ideal but it’s not an actual problem in the scheme of things. He does have a dysgraphia diagnosis. He also honestly made improvement past age 9. His numbers are a lot better and he is better able to line up his math and write legibly for math. It’s still bad but it’s regular bad, not — he can’t even do math independently because he can’t go back and see what he did in a previous step because it is written too poorly. So that is great progress. And then he types a lot.

 

My son is in public school and he had OT at school and they wouldn’t let him drop cursive practice at school — so it isn’t stuff where I have decided on my own, I am more like “okay, you think he should keep doing cursive practice, that’s okay with me.†I liked the people at school so I went along with them, basically.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Lecka

[Seeking Squirrels]

I have heard of kids making good progress at an older age.

 

My 12-year-old has lost cursive but he could get it back. It just doesn’t stay for him. He has problems with letter formation and he did an OT cursive program to try to help his print letter formation (and also see if maybe he did better with cursive — he didn’t). He did cursive for I think 3 years and he never got to where he could read cursive easily. It’s not a big deal. He can type. He has functional writing for when he must. It’s not ideal but it’s not an actual problem in the scheme of things. He does have a dysgraphia diagnosis. He also honestly made improvement past age 9. His numbers are a lot better and he is better able to line up his math and write legibly for math. It’s still bad but it’s regular bad, not — he can’t even do math independently because he can’t go back and see what he did in a previous step because it is written too poorly. So that is great progress. And then he types a lot.

 

My son is in public school and he had OT at school and they wouldn’t let him drop cursive practice at school — so it isn’t stuff where I have decided on my own, I am more like “okay, you think he should keep doing cursive practice, that’s okay with me.†I liked the people at school so I went along with them, basically.

 

I almost looked into getting her evaluated for dysgraphia, she is similar in that she messes up math problems due to illegibility. She also had SO MANY reversals even through last year. Her letters were always all over the place in size as well. But over the last year she has improved in all of those things. 

 

I just got her an app for her kindle fire that has her trace letters in cursive. I added a bunch of words like her name and family member's names to it and now she's happily tracing full words in cursive because the app makes it fun. I'm thinking that might be enough to make me content with her not losing ground if she plays on that a couple times a week. It's not at all the same as writing it, of course, but it will keep up familiarity with the letter shapes and will provide practice reading in it. She's figuring out the words I added for her. 

[OneStepAtATime]

As the mother of a dysgraphic, the wife of a dysgraphic, the sister of a dysgraphic, the aunt of a dysgraphic (which what you are describing sounds like you are dealing with and keep in mind dysgraphia is on a spectrum), this is what I recommend...

 

1.  If she has interest in cursive, incorporate that into her handwriting practice, keep it VERY short, and focus on what she is doing right or close to right.  Have her do short trace work then eventually copywork, NOT responses to content writing, until she reaches at least some level of fluency (which could take years or never happen but if she likes cursive keep it up).  When she copies something (or traces it) have her go back and compare it to the example.  Have her circle the letters that look closest to the original.  Guide her if she needs help spotting the ones that are closest.  Don't focus on the mistakes.  That can be terribly demoralizing and not very effective.  

 

2.  If she doesn't like cursive I would keep her printing one or two sentences daily but again keep content responses separate from handwriting practice.  Handwriting practice should be short but do it daily so muscle strength/muscle memory/procedural memory do not regress.  

 

3.  Work hard on typing but if she is not yet fluent at typing then don't expect her to be able to fluidly type AND remember spelling AND remember grammar, AND be able to come up with the right words, etc.  

 

4.  Scribe for her in content subjects as you work on handwriting and typing until one of those two mediums become sort of fluent.

 

Look into something like Touch Type Read Spell for a typing program.   Lessons are short and they work on reading and spelling as well as typing.  It has worked well for both my dyslexic/dysgraphic son and my dyslexic daughter.  You can usually get a great discount through Homeschool Buyer's Co-Op. 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/touchtypereadspell/

 

I don't know what you are using for cursive but I was using New American Cursive with Start Write software so I could type up quotes and other things of interest to my kids for them to trace then copy then eventually write on their own.  It helped having a standard something to turn to as well.  We kept lessons short, sometimes just a few minutes, and for DS he did some in the NAC notebook and some on a lined dry erase board.  You might consider it.

https://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/penmanship/new-american-cursive/

 

Just wanted to also reassure you that handwriting issues are not so bad in today's day and age.  So much is done on computers now.  My husband has atrocious handwriting.  He is a successful engineer.  My nephew's handwriting is so bad even he can't read it.  It is utterly illegible.  He graduated college with a 4.0.  They both type nearly everything. 

 

DS can write but it is slow, sizing and spacing are all over the place once he gets tired, he fatigues easily and while his handwriting can actually be quite nice when he is writing very, very slowly and is very focused and not having to also come up with ideas while writing, it is inefficient for him.  Typing or me scribing for him then him typing it up afterwards has worked much better.  At the same time, when he stops writing altogether for any length of time there is significant regression in his abilities so we try to do some handwriting in short spurts daily so he doesn't lose what he already has.

 

FWIW, it took years for my kids to be fluent enough at typing for it to be a main way to answer questions or write papers but it has been a wonderful skill for them to have and I do not regret our years of effort to get to this level.  Neither will win speed contests for typing but both are capable of typing now.

[Lecka]

I agree with OneStep!

 

I think the tracing sounds great. It’s awesome she likes it!

[Pegs]

I dictate sentences every day for spelling and she can now do 3 sentences, 4 on a really good day if I've let her do the rest of the lesson orally (she started the year struggling with 1).

This is where I'm at with my 8yo, who has fine motor trouble due to hypermobility. He prints with ease and fluency these days, and manages 3-5 sentences from dictation in his spelling lessons.

 

Rather than progressing to cursive next, we'll take a detour via typing and then come back to cursive later.

 

ETA: I almost forgot to congratulate you on your daughter's progress. It sounds like you've done a great job building up her stamina.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Pegs

[Seeking Squirrels]

As the mother of a dysgraphic, the wife of a dysgraphic, the sister of a dysgraphic, the aunt of a dysgraphic (which what you are describing sounds like you are dealing with and keep in mind dysgraphia is on a spectrum), this is what I recommend...

 

Is it worth getting her evaluated at this point? Who evaluates that? She has an OT and an SLP. (though she is not currently in therapy with either) If it's the OT that evaluates it, she might have already checked for it. I know she did a lot of pencil to paper on her last eval. 

 

1.  If she has interest in cursive, incorporate that into her handwriting practice, keep it VERY short, and focus on what she is doing right or close to right.  Have her do short trace work then eventually copywork, NOT responses to content writing, until she reaches at least some level of fluency (which could take years or never happen but if she likes cursive keep it up).  When she copies something (or traces it) have her go back and compare it to the example.  Have her circle the letters that look closest to the original.  Guide her if she needs help spotting the ones that are closest.  Don't focus on the mistakes.  That can be terribly demoralizing and not very effective.  

 

She says she likes cursive and she was the one to ask for it in 2nd grade, but she also usually moans when it's time to do it. All she is doing right now is trace or copy letters or short words. We're definitely not using it for content at this stage.

 

2.  If she doesn't like cursive I would keep her printing one or two sentences daily but again keep content responses separate from handwriting practice.  Handwriting practice should be short but do it daily so muscle strength/muscle memory/procedural memory do not regress.  

 

3.  Work hard on typing but if she is not yet fluent at typing then don't expect her to be able to fluidly type AND remember spelling AND remember grammar, AND be able to come up with the right words, etc.  

 

She does okay typing. Definitely not fluid yet, it takes her a while, but she can do it. She wants to use it for writing because that often asks for a paragraph and that is overwhelming to her on paper. But that *is* content since she has to focus on whatever her current writing lesson is on. So should I be scribing writing for her? That seems counter intuitive, but I know the point of writing is really creating the sentences, not physically writing them. She's been doing well with typing it, but I wonder if her paragraphs would become longer and more descriptive if she didn't have to painstakingly type every word. 

 

4.  Scribe for her in content subjects as you work on handwriting and typing until one of those two mediums become sort of fluent.

 

Look into something like Touch Type Read Spell for a typing program.   Lessons are short and they work on reading and spelling as well as typing.  It has worked well for both my dyslexic/dysgraphic son and my dyslexic daughter.  You can usually get a great discount through Homeschool Buyer's Co-Op. 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/touchtypereadspell/

 

I don't know what you are using for cursive but I was using New American Cursive with Start Write software so I could type up quotes and other things of interest to my kids for them to trace then copy then eventually write on their own.  It helped having a standard something to turn to as well.  We kept lessons short, sometimes just a few minutes, and for DS he did some in the NAC notebook and some on a lined dry erase board.  You might consider it.

https://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/penmanship/new-american-cursive/

 

That is what she used in 2nd, right now we're using Zaner Bloser 4. She usually does just half of one side at a time. 

 

Just wanted to also reassure you that handwriting issues are not so bad in today's day and age.  So much is done on computers now.  My husband has atrocious handwriting.  He is a successful engineer.  My nephew's handwriting is so bad even he can't read it.  It is utterly illegible.  He graduated college with a 4.0.  They both type nearly everything. 

 

This is kind of what DH and I were hoping and what we were thinking when we were discussing dropping cursive for now. 

 

DS can write but it is slow, sizing and spacing are all over the place once he gets tired, he fatigues easily and while his handwriting can actually be quite nice when he is writing very, very slowly and is very focused and not having to also come up with ideas while writing, it is inefficient for him.  Typing or me scribing for him then him typing it up afterwards has worked much better.  At the same time, when he stops writing altogether for any length of time there is significant regression in his abilities so we try to do some handwriting in short spurts daily so he doesn't lose what he already has.

 

FWIW, it took years for my kids to be fluent enough at typing for it to be a main way to answer questions or write papers but it has been a wonderful skill for them to have and I do not regret our years of effort to get to this level.  Neither will win speed contests for typing but both are capable of typing now.

Thank you, this is very helpful! 

[Lecka]

Scribing is really good to add. It does let kids focus more on the content and often to express more complex and detailed thoughts. I think it is really important until there is fluent typing.

 

Here is a downside we have had to struggle with a bit. Now — your daughter sounds very, very, very, very independent to me. My son though was not as independent I guess, and he needed a lot of support with reading and writing, and..... it was hard for him not to feel like he needed me to do a lot of planning and organizing type of things that I had incidentally been doing for him when I supported him with reading and writing. I hadn’t been aware of how much I was doing to support him in some ways and so he hadn’t been developing some planning and organizing skills along the way. He also had a hard time taking responsibility for his work, he didn’t want to be responsible and independent, because in his mind he needed me to help him.

 

So I think some independent work or maybe work where it is not needed to be a high standard can keep from getting in this situation. But my son was like this with even things like taking out the trash so I don’t think it is just because of scribing *at all.*

 

Overall I think kids go farther with scribing because it gives them more chance to develop their thinking processes, instead of either truncating to write less, or always stopping and starting their train of thought as they pause to focus on writing it down.

 

The physical act of writing is “supposed†to be automatic and fluent at this age, so minimal working memory is supposed to go to it.

 

All/most of the working memory is supposed to be going towards the thinking/composition process.

 

So scribing (etc) gives a child the same opportunity that other children have to devote their working memory to the thinking/composition process.

[Lecka]

As far as a diagnosis — I had a purpose of school accommodation and of having OT supervision of teaching him to type. Those were my goals.

 

It ended up being — a mix of my original goals and what the school thought was important, which — I think they had good ideas.

 

But all very “he can’t meet the writing demands of a 5th grade public school classroom.â€

 

This is as far as I know — an OT doesn’t diagnose, but they do treat and they do help with things like typing (and learning to type). My son was considered pretty close to typing functionally and that was considered most functional for him, and he was also considered not such a candidate for speech-to-text because he used to have speech therapy and he also does not like to be isolated and they thought he would have more trouble with learning to use it independently (which I agreed).

 

Anyway — OT doesn’t diagnose from my understanding. From my understanding you can see about a school psychologist, an educational psychologist, or a neuropsychologist. I think google these terms plus your location, and then call or email to ask questions.

 

I also wanted my son evaluated for autism with the same appointment, so that was a priority for me.

 

My son has changed since then (with better handwriting compared to 3-4 years ago) and he doesn’t have anything for school now. He has the option to type all homework and they use Chromebooks at his school and he has the option to use a Chromebook for any writing of a paragraph or longer, without needing an IEP or anything, that is just how it is.

 

That leaves long worksheet packets at times, that have 3-4 sentence answers, but there could be 10 of those in a packet and that can add up. I have scribed for him on things like that within the past year, and he could type that at home if he wanted to. They will accept anything typed if it is printed at home and ready to turn in at school. But I do just scribe for him when those come up and he has already done half of it or whatever.

 

Then math — right now it is fine, but since long division (which he did with major major support at school) he has been okay with math since then, because nothing has been too hard as far as handwriting. He was so happy to do decimals and percents because there is so much less writing, and he went from major major support to not needing any support. But I don’t know if it will come up again in math. Hopefully not.

 

I don’t think a diagnosis would necessarily help that much unless it gets you OT or a needed accommodation. It would help by giving you information but ime at a certain point possible accommodations are mentioned, but ime it was not determined what is the best fit — that is more for OT, resource teacher, teacher, and parent to discuss.

 

It’s also more than just handwriting for my son when he did OT, and he also got executive functioning supports, and he also got some purposeful things done at school to help his confidence around writing. He had problems with writing that were also related to some anxiety and some problems with task initiation (which they looked at as part of executive functioning).

 

So — it’s hard to know what all the surrounding issues are. It is nothing physical with my son, and there are connected issues for him with executive functioning. But that just depends on the child.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, I would absolutely scribe for your child when she is trying to get thoughts on paper.  As Lecka said, most writing assignments at this age assume that the physical writing process is already fairly smooth so limited resources have to go into it.  When those processes (and there are MANY) are not working together well then the physical act of writing still takes up tremendous resources.  That leaves fewer resources for thinking through WHAT to write and HOW to word things and then spelling/grammar/punctuation are also harder to focus on.

 

Help her to learn that writing, good writing, is usually a multi-step process anyway.  For most stuff just scribe for her if the writing is more than a sentence or two.  For more formal writing assignments work through a multi-step process.  First you help her get the thoughts out onto paper.  Then you help her review those thoughts, adding some things, rearranging some things, taking away some things that either don't convey the idea well or are repetitive or whatever.  Then you both go back again and double check that words are spelled correctly, punctuation is correct, etc.  You can scribe for her during the first part so she can focus on ideas.  Then you can have her type out what you wrote down (get something that keeps the paper clipped upright and close to eye level so she isn't having to shift too far from what she is typing to what was written).  Make sure it is double spaced or even triple spaced if she writes fairly large.  Then you can both go back through it together to see if she wants to change anything plus do some proofreading for spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.  Then she can type up the final draft.

 

Keep the handwriting practice mostly separate from the getting thoughts onto paper process until the systems for handwriting are smoother, more fluent.  You don't want her thoughts/ideas/vocabulary/writing application abilities in general to be held back by her slower to develop handwriting skills.  

[Lecka]

To me there is a lot of bargaining that just comes from being at school and the teacher would like some worksheets done. And then if the worksheets are going to be an issue for my son, it becomes “okay what do we do about it.†And at school they have some ideas and I want to make sure it will be things I think will be good.

 

Like Spelling City. Don’t get me started on it but some of the games require an incredibly high level of coordination to manipulate the mouse and it is crazy hard, but without knowing that it is easy to think “it’s on a computer so that will be good for him.†No. It won’t.

 

My daughter helped him with Spelling City and it came up and the teacher was all “he completes his Spelling City†and I had to say “well I guess we haven’t mentioned this but his little sister helps him with that at home, he just pretends he is doing stuff on the computer at school for Spelling City.†His teacher didn’t know but it’s the kind of thing I don’t know how she would possibly know when my son didn’t say anything to her.

 

For a lot of kids Spelling City works really well, though. I like it but it just isn’t good for my son. My daughter thought it was really fun lol.

 

So for me — I know how it can be helpful for public school, but I don’t know about homeschool. I have not had that experience and I think of it as being very easy to just modify everything and not worry about it (lol).

Edited January 20, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I think it is important for kids to have times that they are proud of their final product. I think scribing can help with that, they know they did a good job. I like how OneStep mentioned that process a lot.

 

What is easy to happen for my son is he just gets things done but he isn’t proud because he knows it isn’t that good (compared to how you would think he could do from talking to him) and it was just a frustrating process that left him feeling like “that was too hard, that was too frustrating.â€

 

Feeling pride and accomplishment are really important, and getting things into the range of appropriate challenge (not too hard, not too easy) is really important.

 

It’s easy to end up with assignments too easy or too hard without making an effort to think about what the child could be doing if they had fluent output and how to provide that same level of challenge.

 

For the times when that is the goal of instruction.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Lecka

[Seeking Squirrels]

.....

 

It doesn't sound like a dx would really be beneficial for us. She is making progress and I don't feel I need additional support (aside from picking the brains of the hive of course!) and she isn't in ps or any program where she would need accommodation. 

 

I've actually never really considered her very independent but I know there is such a range for that! She really needs me right there with her pretty much always. I have to constantly remind her to stay on task. I also tend to do too many simple steps for her just to speed things along. For example getting out her math workbook and turning to the right page rather than telling her to do that. She CAN do it, but it just leaves more steps for her to get distracted on so I tend to just bypass them by doing it myself. I need to start pushing her independence by having her do those things herself even if it's a bit frustrating at first. But once it comes to actually doing the work, she does do that herself. She can follow instruction pretty well. If it's a topic she loves (science), she can stay focused and follow written or oral instructions. 

 

I agree, having them feel proud of their accomplishments is important. She has been more proud of her writing since she started typing it. While still slow and tedious, it's easier for her than writing so she's making fuller sentences. 

 

Yes, I would absolutely scribe for your child when she is trying to get thoughts on paper.  As Lecka said, most writing assignments at this age assume that the physical writing process is already fairly smooth so limited resources have to go into it.  When those processes (and there are MANY) are not working together well then the physical act of writing still takes up tremendous resources.  That leaves fewer resources for thinking through WHAT to write and HOW to word things and then spelling/grammar/punctuation are also harder to focus on.

 

Help her to learn that writing, good writing, is usually a multi-step process anyway.  For most stuff just scribe for her if the writing is more than a sentence or two.  For more formal writing assignments work through a multi-step process.  First you help her get the thoughts out onto paper.  Then you help her review those thoughts, adding some things, rearranging some things, taking away some things that either don't convey the idea well or are repetitive or whatever.  Then you both go back again and double check that words are spelled correctly, punctuation is correct, etc.  You can scribe for her during the first part so she can focus on ideas.  Then you can have her type out what you wrote down (get something that keeps the paper clipped upright and close to eye level so she isn't having to shift too far from what she is typing to what was written).  Make sure it is double spaced or even triple spaced if she writes fairly large.  Then you can both go back through it together to see if she wants to change anything plus do some proofreading for spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.  Then she can type up the final draft.

 

Keep the handwriting practice mostly separate from the getting thoughts onto paper process until the systems for handwriting are smoother, more fluent.  You don't want her thoughts/ideas/vocabulary/writing application abilities in general to be held back by her slower to develop handwriting skills.  

I will start scribing for her for writing and see how things go. I like your thoughts on it being a multi-step process and to have her and I work through that process together. 

 

 

Can I share her last writing assignment? She is my oldest, I really have no idea what to be expecting right now. 

Instruction: Imagine you are an explorer in a jungle. What does the jungle look like? How do you feel? Hot? Sick? Excited? What animals do you see, and what do they do? Write a few sentences that use adjectives, action verbs, and adverbs to describe your experience.

 

"I was in the jungle. When suddenly I herd a rustling in the leaves. And a tiny monkey jumped out of the leaves and on to my head! She had a banana peel on her head for a hair bow. And she cud talk! She said her name was banana." 

 

This was all typed. She knows how to recognize misspelled words by the red line. Without that I think a few more words would be misspelled. 

[PeterPan]

...I've actually never really considered her very independent but I know there is such a range for that! She really needs me right there with her pretty much always. I have to constantly remind her to stay on task. I also tend to do too many simple steps for her just to speed things along. For example getting out her math workbook and turning to the right page rather than telling her to do that. She CAN do it, but it just leaves more steps for her to get distracted on so I tend to just bypass them by doing it myself. I need to start pushing her independence by having her do those things herself even if it's a bit frustrating at first. But once it comes to actually doing the work, she does do that herself. She can follow instruction pretty well. If it's a topic she loves (science), she can stay focused and follow written or oral instructions. 

 

I agree, having them feel proud of their accomplishments is important. She has been more proud of her writing since she started typing it. While still slow and tedious, it's easier for her than writing so she's making fuller sentences. 

 

I will start scribing for her for writing and see how things go. I like your thoughts on it being a multi-step process and to have her and I work through that process together. 

 

 

Can I share her last writing assignment? She is my oldest, I really have no idea what to be expecting right now. 

Instruction: Imagine you are an explorer in a jungle. What does the jungle look like? How do you feel? Hot? Sick? Excited? What animals do you see, and what do they do? Write a few sentences that use adjectives, action verbs, and adverbs to describe your experience.

 

"I was in the jungle. When suddenly I herd a rustling in the leaves. And a tiny monkey jumped out of the leaves and on to my head! She had a banana peel on her head for a hair bow. And she cud talk! She said her name was banana." 

 

This was all typed. She knows how to recognize misspelled words by the red line. Without that I think a few more words would be misspelled. 

 

You could also look at what effect untreated ADHD is having. Between the working memory deficits and attention, writing can be pretty doggone hard, even if it doesn't get them a dsygraphia label. 

 

On the writing exercises where she's composing, I would scribe. Don't even have her type; you type. You need to scribe, because you need to see if there's a difference between what she can compose and get out orally and what she can hold in her head, motor plan, and get on paper. It may be YEARS before that gap is bridged and what she gets onto screen/paper matches what is in her head. Until then, you should scribe for her or use dictation software or use staged supports. For instance, have her make her map in Inspiration/Kidspiration, convert it to an outline, and work in chunks. That way she doesn't forget everything she's writing and can work a bit at a time. She can turn on dictation and dictate her sentences.

 

Consider treating the ADHD, if it's there. Definitely work on working memory and ability to motor plan, hold her thoughts, get her language out, etc. all together while dealing with distractions. I did it with my dd using metronome work, and she got a major jump in her writing. 

 

As far as handwriting, it sounds like it's going pretty well for a girl with possible ADHD and definite SPD. I would keep going at a level that is comfortable for her and not fatiguing. 

[Lecka]

I can’t comment on the writing sample. My kids are really far apart from each other in a lot of ways and I don’t really know what is expected. I thought it was a cute story, though :) I think Banana is a good name for a Monkey :)

[MerryAtHope]

I would keep going with some kind of handwriting instruction, whether it's print, cursive, or both. It's hard to predict whether there will ever be a future where a person would *never* need to handwrite--but right now it could certainly be a drawback. My college kids both have to do things like essay tests and in class work that requires handwriting (a student would need a formal diagnosis and accommodations to have an electronic option), note-taking is almost all by hand (some instructors don't like laptops in class--I've read of lots of situations where professors don't allow them posted on the college board)--not to mention the various forms in our lives that we're given to fill out... I guess I just wouldn't assume that the future won't require any handwriting, and I'd hate to put any limits on a child when she's still so young--a LOT of abilities can grow between now and adulthood, and she's only been writing for a few of her living years. She has many, many more years to practice and grow in this area.

 

My oldest struggled greatly with handwriting (in fact, I had a similar goal with regard to dictation/copywork type of writing, which I also used to increase his stamina and speed). This kind of activity is really worthwhile (and look how far she's come from the beginning of the year!) I'd keep at it. I did a combination of scribing for my son, having him write shorter things which we gradually lengthened as he was able, going back to oral strategies any time he was on the verge of shutting down in frustration etc... I pushed handwriting for some content subjects more as he got older (I didn't work much on note-taking until he was in 8th grade, when I started teaching my kids how to do T-notes for history--before then, anything longer than a few sentences was usually oral with me typing, and sometimes he recopied, taking several days if necessary, depending on length). This is one of the many things my son has come back and thanked me for doing since going to college. (Ironically he has no memory of how much he struggled in elementary--he just basically remembers it was still hard in high school but we kept working on it.)

 

I know it's really hard some days and the resistance is strong! I just think it's worth it to persevere in many cases. If your daughter is seeing an OT, maybe the OT can help you come up with an ongoing plan. Dysgraphia, Dyslexia, Vision Processing, Auditory Processing, ADHD--all of these can have an affect. The more you understand about what's going on, the more you can help her build on the skills she has. It's okay that she's not really to content writing yet--she's a baby writer in the scheme of writing. Just keep working on things at her pace and gently nudging what she can do. 

[Seeking Squirrels]

You could also look at what effect untreated ADHD is having. Between the working memory deficits and attention, writing can be pretty doggone hard, even if it doesn't get them a dsygraphia label. 

 

On the writing exercises where she's composing, I would scribe. Don't even have her type; you type. You need to scribe, because you need to see if there's a difference between what she can compose and get out orally and what she can hold in her head, motor plan, and get on paper. It may be YEARS before that gap is bridged and what she gets onto screen/paper matches what is in her head. Until then, you should scribe for her or use dictation software or use staged supports. For instance, have her make her map in Inspiration/Kidspiration, convert it to an outline, and work in chunks. That way she doesn't forget everything she's writing and can work a bit at a time. She can turn on dictation and dictate her sentences.

 

Consider treating the ADHD, if it's there. Definitely work on working memory and ability to motor plan, hold her thoughts, get her language out, etc. all together while dealing with distractions. I did it with my dd using metronome work, and she got a major jump in her writing. 

 

As far as handwriting, it sounds like it's going pretty well for a girl with possible ADHD and definite SPD. I would keep going at a level that is comfortable for her and not fatiguing. 

 

She does have ADHD and also GAD. The anxiety is being treated. We have tried ADHD meds before and they gave her bad stomach aches and killed her appetite. We already have a hard time getting her to eat, we pad her food and she drinks pediasure to supplement. So a reduced appetite is a really big deal. We talked with her pediatrician about it recently and the ped and I agreed it needs to be something DD is wanting before we try it again. 

 

I can’t comment on the writing sample. My kids are really far apart from each other in a lot of ways and I don’t really know what is expected. I thought it was a cute story, though :) I think Banana is a good name for a Monkey :)

She is obsessed with monkeys! It is also our nickname for her. She really is our little monkey. She climbs like nothing else and she often uses her feet like an extra pair of hands!

 

I would keep going with some kind of handwriting instruction, whether it's print, cursive, or both. It's hard to predict whether there will ever be a future where a person would *never* need to handwrite--but right now it could certainly be a drawback. My college kids both have to do things like essay tests and in class work that requires handwriting (a student would need a formal diagnosis and accommodations to have an electronic option), note-taking is almost all by hand (some instructors don't like laptops in class--I've read of lots of situations where professors don't allow them posted on the college board)--not to mention the various forms in our lives that we're given to fill out... I guess I just wouldn't assume that the future won't require any handwriting, and I'd hate to put any limits on a child when she's still so young--a LOT of abilities can grow between now and adulthood, and she's only been writing for a few of her living years. She has many, many more years to practice and grow in this area.

 

My oldest struggled greatly with handwriting (in fact, I had a similar goal with regard to dictation/copywork type of writing, which I also used to increase his stamina and speed). This kind of activity is really worthwhile (and look how far she's come from the beginning of the year!) I'd keep at it. I did a combination of scribing for my son, having him write shorter things which we gradually lengthened as he was able, going back to oral strategies any time he was on the verge of shutting down in frustration etc... I pushed handwriting for some content subjects more as he got older (I didn't work much on note-taking until he was in 8th grade, when I started teaching my kids how to do T-notes for history--before then, anything longer than a few sentences was usually oral with me typing, and sometimes he recopied, taking several days if necessary, depending on length). This is one of the many things my son has come back and thanked me for doing since going to college. (Ironically he has no memory of how much he struggled in elementary--he just basically remembers it was still hard in high school but we kept working on it.)

 

I know it's really hard some days and the resistance is strong! I just think it's worth it to persevere in many cases. If your daughter is seeing an OT, maybe the OT can help you come up with an ongoing plan. Dysgraphia, Dyslexia, Vision Processing, Auditory Processing, ADHD--all of these can have an affect. The more you understand about what's going on, the more you can help her build on the skills she has. It's okay that she's not really to content writing yet--she's a baby writer in the scheme of writing. Just keep working on things at her pace and gently nudging what she can do. 

I'm definitely going to continue with manuscript practice. We use AAS and I use the dictation sentences at the end of each lesson. We do 3 a day, or 2 dictation and one from the writing station, from her most recent lesson. We will continue with that. It's just cursive I was considering dropping, at least for now. She isn't currently seeing the OT, but she basically still has an opening with them if we feel the need to go back. I don't really want to go that route unless we must. We've done various combos of OT, speech, feeding therapy, social skills classes, and a psychologist. Between co-pays and schedule disruption, I'd rather limit the number of ongoing therapies we have at one time. Youngest is now seeing a psychologist and we're supposed to get DD9 into a new one, as well. That's all the therapy I can handle on my plate right now unless something proves to be truly necessary. 

[Tanaqui]

It doesn't sound like a dx would really be beneficial for us. She is making progress and I don't feel I need additional support (aside from picking the brains of the hive of course!) and she isn't in ps or any program where she would need accommodation.

 

Things do change. Sometimes children have to go back to school suddenly and, of course, she's eventually going to go to university or get a job. I do believe it's better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

[MerryAtHope]

 

I'm definitely going to continue with manuscript practice. We use AAS and I use the dictation sentences at the end of each lesson. We do 3 a day, or 2 dictation and one from the writing station, from her most recent lesson. We will continue with that. It's just cursive I was considering dropping, at least for now. She isn't currently seeing the OT, but she basically still has an opening with them if we feel the need to go back. I don't really want to go that route unless we must. We've done various combos of OT, speech, feeding therapy, social skills classes, and a psychologist. Between co-pays and schedule disruption, I'd rather limit the number of ongoing therapies we have at one time. Youngest is now seeing a psychologist and we're supposed to get DD9 into a new one, as well. That's all the therapy I can handle on my plate right now unless something proves to be truly necessary. 

 

I hear you! (and the AAS dictation, and later on the Writing Station exercises, really helped my kids build up both working memory and stamina with writing.)

 

I ended up continuing a cursive workbook through 6th grades, hoping my kids could eventually read their grandmother's cards (and historical documents etc...) and sign their names. 

[PeterPan]

Totally makes sense on the meds side effects, ugh. Have you looked into mindfulness? Even just 10 minutes can give a 30% bump in EF. Mighteor software is really good. Getting retained reflexes integrated was huge for my ds, huge. The mindfulness though, if you can do it (either with the software or with a cd or by teaching body scans or...) might give you a piece. Even 30% is something. 

 

I missed how many therapies you've tried. No wonder you feel overwhelmed. It's rough when it's at a place where you need all that! Did they work on retained reflexes? They're kind of pivotal for a lot of people for a lot of things.

 

The other thing I've been doing with my ds is genetics. Turns out some of his behaviors are directly tied to a defective vitamin D receptor gene. Like it literally sounds too good to be true, but there's this sort of cascade, a domino effect, and the treatment is vitamin D, go figure.

Edited January 22, 2018 by PeterPan

[Seeking Squirrels]

Totally makes sense on the meds side effects, ugh. Have you looked into mindfulness? Even just 10 minutes can give a 30% bump in EF. Mighteor software is really good. Getting retained reflexes integrated was huge for my ds, huge. The mindfulness though, if you can do it (either with the software or with a cd or by teaching body scans or...) might give you a piece. Even 30% is something. 

 

I missed how many therapies you've tried. No wonder you feel overwhelmed. It's rough when it's at a place where you need all that! Did they work on retained reflexes? They're kind of pivotal for a lot of people for a lot of things.

 

The other thing I've been doing with my ds is genetics. Turns out some of his behaviors are directly tied to a defective vitamin D receptor gene. Like it literally sounds too good to be true, but there's this sort of cascade, a domino effect, and the treatment is vitamin D, go figure.

 

I've heard of mindfulness but every time I start to look into it for some reason *I* feel overwhelmed. I also have ADD so maybe it's because I need it as well? I will try again to look into it and figure out where to start. 

 

No they didn't work on retained reflexes, or at least they didn't call it that if they did. She did a lot of core work like climbing, hanging from things, throwing, jumping, animal crawls, bicycle and other coordination type things, coloring, cutting... 

 

That's interesting about the vit. D. I am chronically low, I wonder if she has issues with it, too. 

[PeterPan]

The Body Scan Practice - Mindful  Don't make it hard or weird. It's basically just slowing down and really feeling your body and noticing how it feels. Sometimes you will put words to it, but you don't have to. It's ok to be very brief or imperfect, like maybe just noticing your breathing for a few minutes or just focusing your feet. 

 

Mindfulness activates the interroception part of the brain (google it) and is very powerful for raising self-awareness. It's a big deal right now with OTs, the autism community, etc., and you really can't mess it up. Anything you do will be something. 

 

The author of Sitting Like a Frog has her audio tracks online that you can use for free. They're excellent and very easy to use with kids, meant for kids. I've done it with that, with a counselor. Yesterday I was getting cranial sacral, and I used that as an opportunity be still and really pay attention to each spot that was moving and FEEL it and notice it. At the dentist might not be the most cool time to do that, lol. 

 

I'll do it in the car when I'm driving or at stop lights. Like I'll just put my attention on how my feet feel and my legs feel and my butt feels and... I don't know, when you're sitting driving in two hour stretches your body is feeling a lot. But what happens is you feel so much and are so achy and whatever that you turn it off and sort of disconnect. So mindfulness is just stopping and reconnecting with that and letting yourself FEEL those things and not ignoring that you hurt and are tired and feel squished and... You just stop and make effort to notice and feel it.

[PeterPan]

Yes, vitamin D affects the methylation cycle, which is why it improves my ds' behavior. Also it helps with tryptophan which then boosts serotonin, making him seem more "happy autistic." Also the methylation cycle affects dopamine levels, which is your attention piece.

 

So yeah, it seems kind of stupid/simplistic that vitamin D could affect so much, lol. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen the genes, lol.

Edited January 24, 2018 by PeterPan