Feeling lost and could use your guidance

[home4good_1405]

Hello my fellow homeschool moms:) I could really use your help. And please excuse the long post and the fact I have a tendency to go off on a tangent. This is our second year homeschooling. My girls are in 4th and 6th. The first year I would say we were eclectic but the lack of lessons plans was a pain in the butt and I desperately wanted help with that. I became slightly obsessed to say the least with the TWTM, and convinced myself classical was the way to go for us and I jumped into almost full grade cores with Memoria Press. I want to love it, I really do. All the ladies on the MP Forum talk about how it is gentle, yet rigorous, and intertwines so beautifully. I kinda see that at times, but ugh, my girls liked it at first, but it is sucking the life/fun out of learning! It is just too much! And the other thing? I feel I am an educated person, but on those MP Forum's the members are really helpful, but there is almost a sense of arrogance to a lot of the posts. I feel like I am being talked down to and just don't fit in. I was skeptical when it came to latin, but now I see the benefits of it and the girls are learning so much! But it is really hard! Trying to keep up with that, the reading, writing, sciences, lit guides, geography, christian studies, classical studies, math, it is wearing them down! Believe me, they aren't finding the good and beautiful in it anymore lol! And please I don't want to offend anyone! It is a great curriculum! I just don't think it is working for us anymore. And now I am having an identity crisis lol! What am I? I thought it was classical for so long, but I just don't know! I need help hahaha! What method do we identify with most, so I can proceed and make it enjoyable again. I guess I am just struggling with the balance of making school fun, interesting, exciting so the fire is always burning for the joy of learning, and realizing that it can't always be fun and the work just needs to get done sometimes. We love to go to museums, hike outside, listen to music, do art, read books aloud, read good books for fun, do math, watch great documentaries, follow rabbit holes through all sorts of topics on great youtube channels, history, go to co-op and classes without worrying that the curriculum guide won't get finished! My daughters express interest in all sorts of things but I don't feel like we have time to dive into them because our other work won't get done. I don't want to be a slave to the curriculum anymore. I love what classical stands for, but I feel it leaves out so much in the present. Should I be looking at the more Neo-classical approach? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I love so many aspects of each of the homeschooling approaches, that I don't know where to look and what we need! Am I CM, eclectic, an unschooler? I realize this last part differs from most on the forum, but everyone here is so open and helpful! I appreciate it so much! Help please:)

 

 

[Kiara.I]

Well, I have no experience with Memoria cores...because I took one look at it and thought "Workbooks!  AGH!" and never looked at it again. LOL

 

So I definitely come from the angle that there is good education outside of MP.  We do use some of their latin, and we might in the future use other products from them, but I will just never tie myself down to that many workbooks at once, all needing to be completed at specific times.  Ugh.  So I quite understand that you might not want to be a slave to their curriculum guide!

 

The thing is, though, they are only ONE classical approach.  There are others.  I personally lean eclectic classical...I guess.  I like the classical framework but am quite happy to pull it together from multiple different sources.  But you notice TWTM doesn't say "Buy everything from MP."  So you can quite happily embrace TWTM and still chuck like a hot potato whatever parts of MP aren't working for you.

 

I don't understand the idea that Classical leaves out the present.  Maybe I'm not a true classical homeschooler.  Guess what?  Who cares?  LOL  YOU are the one teaching your children.  Use what works for you and for them.  You like doing nature study?  Great.  Lots of people taught in the classical method probably spent hours outside too.  Want to do art?  So did the classicists.  Really, if you're not finding time for those things it doesn't mean Classical education isn't for you, it just means THAT curriculum guide isn't for you.  That's it.

 

Feel free to pull together whatever you like.  If you want more of a schedule there are some things that give you that, or you can just pull out your math book and say, Okay, 120 lessons in the year need to fit into this space of time, so we need 4 lessons every second week and 5 the other weeks, so we'll have double up some days to have room for co-op.  And this music appreciation book we've got covers 10 composers so we need to do one each month to have a break in the summer...  You can write your own schedule, if you want a schedule, that works for YOUR family.

[Rosie_0801]

It's okay to pick and choose.

 

Are you working consistently on skill subjects? Jolly good.

Are you addressing content subjects according to your local laws and so your children aren't one dimensional bores you don't want to listen to? Jolly good.

[goldenecho]

So, first of all...I am not a classical homeschooler either (not much).  And apart from SOTW and Addition Facts that Stick, not using any of the WTM curriculum.   LOVE these forums because people give such great, detailed answers, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only non-classical homeschooler here...but yeah, sometimes I get the vibe too that people might be a little aghast at my more relaxed approach to homeschooling.

 

We love to go to museums, hike outside, listen to music, do art, read books aloud, read good books for fun, do math, watch great documentaries, follow rabbit holes through all sorts of topics on great youtube channels, history, go to co-op and classes without worrying that the curriculum guide won't get finished! My daughters express interest in all sorts of things but I don't feel like we have time to dive into them because our other work won't get done. I don't want to be a slave to the curriculum anymore.

 

What you said here makes me think you might enjoy trying out a Unit Study method.   It allows you to just dive into some interest lead study for a while.   You may want to still keep up with math lessons, since there's a natural progression with that (though with a little thought whatever you're practicing can probably be incorporated into the topic in some way).

 

If you have some topics in mind your kids want to dig into more deeply, I can maybe give you some ideas about how to incorporate core topics in a unit study (writing, math, etc.).   If you tell me where they are in math that might help. 

 

And maybe after taking a break to do a unit study you can come back to the curriculum you've been using and it will feel fresher.   Sometimes you need an "educational vacation" and unit studies are a good way to break pace from the norm.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by goldenecho

[....]

Trying to keep up with that, the reading, writing, sciences, lit guides, geography, christian studies, classical studies, math, it is wearing them down! Believe me, they aren't finding the good and beautiful in it anymore lol! 

 

We're not really classical homeschoolers, either (although we have used a bunch of SWB's curricula over the years).  But, the last thing I would want to do is reach burn-out when the kids are only in 4th and 6th grades.  And it sounds like you guys have taken on too much.  If no one is enjoying it, I would change directions.  My goal has always been for my kids to love learning and be able to delve into things that are interesting to them.    

 

And, honestly, I always gasp when I look at MP's curricula.  My oldest two are right-brained, kinesthetic learners and they would've cried if I had them do one of those MP packages.  It would've been a fight every day - literally.  Not to mention their curriculum is way out of our price range.

 

Unit studies were mentioned.  We did unit studies for years.  We did a "survival skills" unit study where we read My Side of the Mountain and spent several weeks on navigation, map-reading, first aid skills, fire safety, nature study, knot-tying, etc.  We did a semester of "Harry Potter School" where we read the HP books and had potions class (chemistry), creative writing based off the books, etc.  We did two volumes of KONOS and a bunch of FIAR/Beyond FIAR.  As they got older, I also built courses around topics they were interested in (like for high school).  This year, my son is studying stuff like paleobiology and military history through literature.  Next year, dd16 is adding a third language.  She studies German, Latin and is adding Hebrew.  *shrug*

 

And putting together your own stuff can be tiring, too, after awhile.  So, it's ok to change directions when that runs its course.  My high schoolers are going to do a boxed curriculum together next year (not MP, though  :tongue_smilie:  ).  They decided they wanted something all planned out for them, so they can do it, get it done without needing me and move onto their pet projects.  Lol.     

[RootAnn]

So, for the rest of this year, why not keep math, reading (no more lit guides if they don't like them), some writing (be flexible on this), and then decide which of the rest you want to keep doing & which you want to drop completely. And if they want to drop everything else, that's fine. Follow your rabbit trails for the rest of the year while you figure out where you are going to go after this year. If you decide to keep Latin, just figure out how much you want to cover the rest of the school year & do it however many days per week you need to in order to get to that point. (For example, I had one kid who did First Form in a year. My next did it in 1 1/2 years. My third just restarted it with MP's online class and she understands things so much better for the repetition of restarting it. Everyone at their own pace, ya know?)

 

We're eclectic. I love the looks of MP's stuff, but there is no way we could do it all. The ladies above gave good advice. Enjoy your little people!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

 

It can take time to find your homeschooling legs.  Lots of time.  That's o.k.  For the rest of this year, pare it down to just math every day, reading (content and interest led) in whatever format works (if that does not include a single lit guide you will not ruin your children) plus some writing.  Perhaps you could all keep a journal and maybe take a trip into writing poetry for fun or something.  For history and science, these are fractal and never ending subjects.  You cannot study all of either of these subjects.  While they are still young enough that High School credits won't matter let this be rabbit trails and interest led.  If you need a guide for science, follow something like Real Science for Kids or What's on Your Plate Exploring Food Science or something along those lines.  There are many options out there that can guide you but still give you the opportunity to follow rabbit trails.

 

https://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/science/science-unit-studies/real-science4kids

 

https://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/science/science-unit-studies/whats-on-your-plate-exploring-food-science

 

For history, maybe pick an area of interest that they have and study the history behind it.   Maybe they love art.  Pick a type of art and student the artists and the history that tie into that art.  Maybe they love horses.  Study the history of horses and how horses have affected history.  Etc.  Or just read Story of the World and do some fun side projects if they are interested.

 

Start with your core.  Keep math, reading and writing incorporated in some way on a daily basis.  It doesn't have to take up a ton of time and while yes it is important for all of you to acknowledge that sometimes you just need to do something, whether you find it super exciting or not, you can find ways to make it more interesting.  Play mathy games and incorporate real world math.  Do read alouds while snuggling on the couch.  Play board games. go on field trips.  Maybe start an indoor garden that you can move outside when weather permits (if weather is an issue right now).  Help them plan their garden and choose which plants make sense for your family's needs/ability to grow in your area.

 

Add in whatever else floats your/their boat as you chose to.  And work to hone areas of skill/interest.  Encourage the pursuit of hobbies.  Enjoy these years.  And hang in there.  :)

[Tsuga]

We use the theory and read aloud. My kids are in public school and they do the languages that cost least to outsource though I dream of Latin and Greek intros the summer before middle school.

 

This is my aspiration, not my reality. It constantly drives me to push but I work full time so... Yeah. :D

[8filltheheart]

I have written a lot over the yrs about how we homeschool. Someone linked some of them a couple of days ago in this thread. That thread in general might give you some ideas. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/666446-help-me-find-the-interdisciplinaryintegrated-courses-thread/

[Critterfixer]

I've used a fair bit of MP's curriculum at one point or another. Probably my biggest bit of advice would be to make it your own and don't let somebody else set the pace or dictate every component. I use their Latin at the pace that suits me and my boys. I do the review my way. With the Literature guides, I pick and choose. I may not do everything in favor of reading aloud or discussing things together. One year we did MP insects, and I ended up using the guide as a scaffold to build my own study. We grew the front yard out, hunted bugs, watched documentaries, raided the library for resources and had a great time.

 

Pick and choose, read ahead, substitute where you need to, and don't feel limited by the confines of the schedules, the workbooks, or getting through the whole thing. Make the structure work for you; don't let it fence you in.

[Lori D.]

Welcome to the forum! And to homeschooling! :)

 

 

So, you've learned a good and very useful thing so far: your family is NOT a formal workbook-based curriculum learning family. :) That's a GOOD thing to know. And that doesn't mean you can't incorporate some of the goals of classical education that resonate with YOU into your homeschooling. Classical is NOT about using a specific program or publisher. whew!  :laugh:

 

It also sounds like you have some sweet and eager students, and that none of you are a match with Memoria Press. Previous posters gave you some great ideas. Here are some more ideas for "scheduling" yourself for the rest of this school year:

 

- drop Memoria Press

- daily do some math from whatever math program is a good fit for each student

- daily enjoy some good literature -- do a family read aloud, plus have time for students to read on their own -- select books from a book basket you set up with good titles from the 1000 Good Books list, or from good books on lists from curriculum providers

- daily do some writing; if a program works best for you go for that; otherwise, spend this year doing a little creative writing, writing paragraphs about the History and Science you're studying, make a blog and have students write a short weekly blog article about the nature walk or field trip or science experiment or other fun thing they did that week

- 2-3x/week do a little History and Science -- perhaps have students pick a topic of interest in each of History and Science and enjoy a unit study on each, or just explore with good books, kits, experiments/hands-on activities, documentaries, museums, field trips, etc.

- enjoy making some art, learning an instrument, 

- join a homeschool support group and make some friends, meet at the park for play dates, or "do PE" together

 

 

I LOVE literature, and I don't recommend starting formal literature studies until somewhere along about 7th-9th grade. And just me, but I sure wouldn't start with a dry-as-dust (for me and our DSs) workbook for literature like MP.  :eek: While we DID you some lit. guides in the middle/high school years to springboard into discussion, we would never have used a workbook straight through and in its entirely, which would have killed the love of reading and literature.

 

So while you are de-stressing from formal classical education, you can determine what YOUR goals are for your student's education and for as a family. And then you can do some research to see what curricula might be a good fit for your family -- both temporarily, but then for later on, or for the "long haul". :)

 

Maybe right now, enjoy something like the unit study Further Up and Further In (for gr. 4-7) on the 7 Narnia Chronicles books. Or the Prairie Primer (gr. 3-6) unit study on the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder.

 

Konos is the original unit study program for homeschoolers. You can try 3 weeks of lesson plans for free to see if unit studies are a better fit for your family.

 

Or, if you need more structure/schedule for yourself, maybe check out the Learning Adventure (Christian) series that are 1-year studies for gr. 4-8 covering everything except math:

World of Adventure (6 units -- Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Middle Ages, Renaissance, Exploration)

New World of Adventure (3 units -- Colonial/Early America)

Westward and Onward (10 units -- Civil War/Pioneer America)

 

Biblioplan is a classical history and literature program that allows you the flexibility of choosing how much/what level works for you and your students. Similarly, the History from Guest Hollow let you be flexible: American History, year 1 (gr. 2-6) and year 2 (gr. 2-8).

 

For Science unit studies: if you've got a student who loves horses, maybe check out something like the Equine Science program (gr. 3-7) or Human Body and Forensics (gr. 4-6) unit from Winter Promise, or the Otter's Chemistry (gr. 4-8) from Guest Hollow.

 

Just throwing a lot of things out there to help you brainstorm! Mostly just want to encourage you: there are LOTS of options out there. No need to go with something super formal that is stressing you all out. Take a break from formal curriculum for a month, and enjoy learning informally right now while you reassess and do some research to decide what works best for YOUR family. Hugs! It will be okay! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

 

ETA: P.S.:

 

...I love what classical stands for, but I feel it leaves out so much in the present...

 

I actually think this is true across the board in education as a whole. If you look at public school textbooks and children/teen non-fiction books in the library or in bookstores, there aren't a lot of titles that cover people and events of the last 2 decades of the 20th century, or our first two decades of the 21st century.

 

When you look at Social Studies textbooks for elementary and middle school students, you don't see much coverage of events past World War 2, even in the texts that cover "Modern" history. There is often mention of the Space Race and the technological and computer advancements. Maybe some medical advancements. And then *maybe* mention of the Vietnam War (1960s/70s), and the fall of the Berlin Wall and end of Communism in Eastern Europe (late 1980s/early 1990s).

 

Honestly, I think the events of the last 30-40 years are still being processed by historians and thinkers -- because some of the events are on-going, and because we don't have enough time/distance from the events to figure out all of the causes, it's hard to be able to figure out how to "sum up" events for a textbook. And since these more recent events have not yet been digested and produced in a format that is readable and understandable by students, especially for the younger (K-8) crowd, you just don't see a lot of coverage on "the present" (i.e. the past . :)

 

One way to include "the present", as in *today*, in education is through exposure to Current Events -- the "what's going on right now" in science, culture, politics, exploration, etc. -- and you can do that through scheduling weekly or even daily time for you and your students. See these past threads for resources for doing Current Events:

"Looking for online current events for kids"

"Do you study current events with your kids? How?"

"Current events"

 

 

ETA #2

GoldenEcho provided some SUPER examples of incorporating the present into whatever time period you study. It may take finding a curriculum that includes those kinds of questions to help transition in to thinking of those sorts of questions for yourself. :)

Edited January 20, 2018 by Lori D.

[goldenecho]

...I love what classical stands for, but I feel it leaves out so much in the present...

 

Missed this somehow the first read through.  

 

So, we're working chronologically, and are just getting to the end of Ancient times.  Here's some ways we have brought in "the present" while studying the past....

 

 

 

Here's some specific things we did to connect...

 

1.  When talking about archeology, we talked about what would people think of our civilization if they were to look at our trash (the stuff in our trash that would probably last the longest).  What would they think about us? 

 

2.  When we were covering nomads settling into cities we compared ancient farming to farming today.

 

3. Whenever we studied an ancient civilization I would look for short YouTube videos on what that area is like now (what the modern country is, what the culture was currently like, etc. )  I'd ask questions about what was the same and what was different.  For example, we looked at modern houses in Africa when studying ancient Africa (I made a pinterest page...there's more about what we did here:  http://imaginativehomeschool.blogspot.com/2017/11/story-of-world-ancient-times-chap-11.html)

 

4. When talking about Hamurabi's laws, we talked about why some of our laws would be harder to keep (i.e. we have enough resources to send someone to jail and feed them while they are there, in stead of cutting off their hand, while they probably couldn't do that easily). 

 

5.   We compared ancient Greek democracy to our own (again, using a YouTube video: 

).

 

6.  We looked at a map comparing the size of the Roman Empire to the United states.  We talked about why their borders were hard to manage, and we talked about what is different and what the same about the Roman empire and the US. 

 

7.  This didn't really go back to ancient times much, but there's a TV series that used to be on Netflex called "How We Got to Now" that follows the development of technology on different topics (light, clean/sanitation, cold/refrigeration).   It goes from the earliest methods to today...and shows how each change impacted society.  

 

Just a few ideas!

 

 

(Edited to change a few grammatical errors that were bugging me)

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by goldenecho

[home4good_1405]

So, first of all...I am not a classical homeschooler either (not much).  And apart from SOTW and Addition Facts that Stick, not using any of the WTM curriculum.   LOVE these forums because people give such great, detailed answers, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only non-classical homeschooler here...but yeah, sometimes I get the vibe too that people might be a little aghast at my more relaxed approach to homeschooling.

 

 

What you said here makes me think you might enjoy trying out a Unit Study method.   It allows you to just dive into some interest lead study for a while.   You may want to still keep up with math lessons, since there's a natural progression with that (though with a little thought whatever you're practicing can probably be incorporated into the topic in some way).

 

If you have some topics in mind your kids want to dig into more deeply, I can maybe give you some ideas about how to incorporate core topics in a unit study (writing, math, etc.).   If you tell me where they are in math that might help. 

 

And maybe after taking a break to do a unit study you can come back to the curriculum you've been using and it will feel fresher.   Sometimes you need an "educational vacation" and unit studies are a good way to break pace from the norm.

 

Thank you so much for this suggestion! I have been mulling this over and I think it's time to try it!

[home4good_1405]

Missed this somehow the first read through.  

 

So, we're working chronologically, and are just getting to the end of Ancient times.  Here's some ways we have brought in "the present" while studying the past....

 

 

 

Here's some specific things we did to connect...

 

1.  When talking about archeology, we talked about what would people think of our civilization if they were to look at our trash (the stuff in our trash that would probably last the longest).  What would they think about us? 

 

2.  When we were covering nomads settling into cities we compared ancient farming to farming today.

 

3. Whenever we studies an ancient civilization I would look for short YouTube videos on what that area was like now (what the modern country was, what the culture was currently like, etc. )  I'd ask questions about what was the same and what was different.  For example, we looked at modern houses in Africa when studying ancient Africa (I made a pinterest page...there's more about what we did here:  http://imaginativehomeschool.blogspot.com/2017/11/story-of-world-ancient-times-chap-11.html)

 

4. When talking about Hamurabi's laws, we talked about why some of our laws would be harder to keep (i.e. we have enough resources to send someone to jail and feed them while they are there, in stead of cutting off their hand, while they probably couldn't do that easily). 

 

5.   We compared ancient Greek democracy to our own (again, using a YouTube video: 

).

 

6.  We looked at a map comparing the size of the Roman Empire to the United states.  We talked about why their borders were hard to manage, and we talked about what is different and what the same about the Roman empire and the US. 

 

7.  This didn't really go back to ancient times much, but there's a TV series that used to be on Netflex called "How We Got to Now" that follows the development of technology on different topics (light, clean/sanitation, cold/refrigeration).   It goes from the earliest methods to today...and shows how each change impacted society.  

 

Just a few ideas!

 

Wow!!!! Thank you so much! I need help at times thinking outside of the box and these are wonderful suggestions! I truly appreciate your input!

[OrganicJen]

We started outed out very strictly classical but have switched to Build Your Library which leans more Charlotte Mason and we are all a lot happier with it.

[BlsdMama]

It's okay to pick and choose.

 

Are you working consistently on skill subjects? Jolly good.

Are you addressing content subjects according to your local laws and so your children aren't one dimensional bores you don't want to listen to? Jolly good.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Think of it as supper and snacks.  Your kids need to sit down at a healthy meal and fuel their bodies.  That said, snacks have their place too and they are nice to fit in, provided you have room for them.  KWIM?  ;)

And I can feel guilty over not providing a healthy supper, but I refuse to feel guilty that they didn't get a snack today on top of the meal I prepared.  

[...................]

Well since MP is kind of working for you why not just drop parts of it?

 

At your girls age you can drop Christian Studies and Just read the Bible every day or join Awana and follow up with what they teach. Awana is fun!

 

You can drop Science and just make your way through all the Science videos at the library. Bill

Nye is not Christian but my kids loved his videos. There are others as well.

 

The other one I would drop is Geography and revisit that at a later time when the kids are

Older.

 

If you take away these three subjects I’m sure your load will be much more manageable.

[...................]

But, if you decide fo ditch MP and go eclectic you may be happier and the kids do better

 

Here are some of our best memories:

Five in a Row (too young for your kids but always have to mention it)

 

Sonlight Preschool Core

 

Sonlight American History (we just read the books in chronological order)

 

Story of the World 1 2 and 3

 

Apologia Elementary Zoology (flying, swimming and the other one)

 

 

Awana

 

Miquon math

Serls Language Lessons

 

We had other curriculum that worked and we used for many years but don’t necessarily have fond memories of them, they just worked :)

[...................]

But, if you decide fo ditch MP and go eclectic you may be happier and the kids do better

 

Here are some of our best memories:

Five in a Row (too young for your kids but always have to mention it)

 

Sonlight Preschool Core

 

Sonlight American History (we just read the books in chronological order)

 

Story of the World 1 2 and 3

 

Apologia Elementary Zoology (flying, swimming and the other one)

 

 

Awana

 

Miquon math

Serls Language Lessons

 

We had other curriculum that worked and we used for many years but don’t necessarily have fond memories of them, they just worked :)

I don’t know I am just saying that If we had always used a box we wouldn’t have these warm fuzzy memories :) especially a dry box like MP :)

 

Child’s History of the World was also a favorite :) I guess we liked history 😜

[Mbelle]

When I first pulled my children from school in 3rd and 1st grade we joined a 2 day hybrid school to get an idea of how to go.  They had a Charlotte Mason vibe for the elementary years and only moved to classical slowly from 4th to 6th I think.  I read a lot about Mason and so we sort of did that on our own for several years using various curriculum. Then we started doing MP Latin and then their Lit and Comp etc.. and my 2nd child used a full Core his last year of full on homeschooling..we did do one or two of their online classes that year too. We got bored at home, so for High School they went back to the hybrid school and are doing very well. I tried to do MPK with my little and it's a great program but just too much (in general and too much workbook) for that age for us.  We like to have more fun.  We will probably always use some of their curriculum (it is good), but we will not lose our joy to do it.  I'm not saying it all has to be fun, but our days need to lean strongly in the direction of joy.   You will find what works as you go along and others have given great suggestions.

[birchbark]

I agree with other posters. Cut back to the 3R's: reading (not lit analysis), writing, and math. Then add what you love doing.

 

Here's a homeschool philosophy quiz for fun. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by birchbark

[SanDiegoMom]

Lots of good advice so I'm just parroting here... but I find that my kids thrive on variety. So workbooks are great for one subject on some days, videos with or without narration after, textbook for math, eclectic for science (lots of videos, some projects but also articles every other week that they outline or take notes on). WWS for writing, so definitely classical but I have them take a break and work on a blog or on some creative writing and don't worry about finishing it on any time frame, as long as they are working on skills. Basically we keep it interesting and are not slaves to one philosophy.