Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo

Are Colleges Pushing Students to Do Too Much in High School? (good Foreign language -side thread)


149 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#101 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:20 PM

I agree with this in theory but in practice it is much harder than it first appears. Language disabilities, bush villages, and many other factors contribute to making this a meaningless credit if not done well. Without teachers that actually have an understanding of the nuances of the culture it can make people just think they know about a culture. So you tried Brie in French class, whoop-de-doo. In some places learning how to survive at college IS learning about a different culture. If you grew up knowing how to skin seals, sew waterproof clothing, etc but got locked out of college because you didn't have a foreign language down that says a lot to me about how well academia has become open minded about other cultures by knowing an extra language or two.

Different perspectives are good. If that is what you want then a replacement credit could include a cultural studies class where you read the literature in translation, listen to interviews or lectures from someone who actually grew up in that culture, and perhaps study some of the differences of the language.

The colleges want 2-3 years of the same language to gain proficiency though. So what exacatly is the goal of that requirement?

I do like that our local public schoool district has multiple immersion schools. By the time they are in high school they can be fluent and focus on specific goals for their career, etc. That is one way to do it well. But as it is right now for what seems to be a majority of Americans, it is a box to check and then it becomes worthless. The disconnect I see is that requirements don't make things happen well. They are just requirements. My children's great opportunities probably look different then other people's great opportunities. To take advantage of them I can't fill all my time checking boxes.

 

But the majority of American kids do not grow up in a  bush village skinning seals.

And yes, proficient teachers are necessary, in every subject. I cannot wrap my mind around how this works here that teachers who are not fluent in a language are required to teach that language, it makes no sense.

But with the US being a country formed by immigration, it would be so incredibly easy to find people fluent in other languages. How can it not be par for the course to provide symmetric bilingual instruction in states that have a high percentage of Spanish speaking immigrants? that is just dumb politics that wastes so much potential.

 



#102 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:32 PM

I see that you feel rather strongly about this, but I think that many students would learn and retain more from a targeted culture class/sequence; the language requirement can often be satisfied by two semesters, which is often spent mostly studying grammar and syntax that is forgotten once the class is over. 

 

It would also make it possible to teach in more variety than we currently do; my undergraduate school offered French, German, and Spanish, so everything was European or American. 

 

I am not, btw, speaking of a "culture" class where the students dress up in funny hats and eat weird foods, but rather a serious look at geography, religion, social structure, governmental structure, recent history, relations with neighboring countries, and so on. 

 

(Edit: and I was not sufficiently clear in my original post; were I to allow computer languages to count, I would still require cultural exploration classes in the general education curriculum, as I think it is one of the most important things that students are exposed to at university. I just don't think that foreign language classes are the only medium for this.)

 

I do feel strongly about this, because I do not see any of these as a substitute for the mastery of a foreign language which I consider a crucial hallmark of being educated.

If the public schools in my childhood country with a dysfunctional economy and far fewer resources than the US managed to teach me two foreign languages to fluency, I don't see why we cannot do this in a rich first world nation.

 

I would like to see a requirement for 8-10 years of a first and 6-8 years of a second foreign language in school for college bound students.


Edited by regentrude, 18 January 2018 - 02:34 PM.

  • Frances and bibiche like this

#103 kiana

kiana

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7625 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:35 PM

If the public schools in my childhood country with a dysfunctional economy and far fewer resources than the US managed to teach me two foreign languages to fluency, I don't see why we cannot do this in a rich first world nation.

 

That is the difference between a country that values education and a country that values credentials :(


  • Frances, beckyjo, nansk and 2 others like this

#104 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:37 PM

That is the difference between a country that values education and a country that values credentials :(

 

Yes. Sadly.
 



#105 frogger

frogger

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1225 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:52 PM

Well, to offer something as part of their education is different than to simply require it on the other end. Perhaps we can agree on that?

Kids from all different backgrounds need opportunities. If your opportunities are sparse in the language department than having to check a bunch of boxes unrelated to your degree is a waste of time. If there were great opportunities, you had no language disabilities, and nothing else stood in your way (cancer, foster care, and a lot of other things), then I think it would be a great thing.

I cannot comment on the foreign language opportunities in other states as each state has it's own unique circumstances. I think most Western States deal a lot with students too spread out to efficiently teach them. Many probably have their own unique money hogging problems (our district teaches students speaking 100 different languages http://www.alaskajou...ndred-languages

We have way more fetal alcohol syndrome cases than average and abuse in homes which affects learning,etc.


The district has still managed to get 3 immersion or partial immersion programs going from elementary up in Russian, Spanish, and Japanese. But each elementary school would need its own before it was offered to all students.

I think the rural problem is something few European nations can comprehend considering their size and populations. :)

Now back East and in the big cities is a different story. I really don't know about why they can't. I think more of them do though but perhaps I'm wrong. I would have to check out the data.
  • kiana, JoJosMom, Heigh Ho and 2 others like this

#106 Caroline

Caroline

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5855 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:36 PM

Since Georgia Tech was mentioned...When I was a student at GT in the 1990’s, the president of the university had a study conducted to see what qualities the students who were successful at Tech had in common. Tech loses students at a tremendous rate. What the committee found was that students who had studied a foreign language in high school and students who had an interest in the arts did better at Georgia Tech. Were there kids who didn’t have these things who were successful? Of course. Were there kids who did have these thing who left the university? Of course. But there was a strong correlation. So Clough changed the admissions criteria for the university. He also changed the climate of the university ever so slightly. He added more arts classes and spaces on campus.

It isn’t about knowing the language fluently, although right out of high school, my oldest was very good at Spanish. I don’t know if he was fluent, but he could read, write, speak, and understand and get along in Spain just fine. It was about going through the process to learn it. It was about using those parts of his brain.

He also can read music. I think that is an important skill. I don’t know why I think that, but I do.

As for the physics not offered at some large percentage of GA high schools... Georgia Virtual offers physics on level, honors, and AP. Every public school student in Georgia has access to GAVS. Is it perfect? No. But every public school student has access. And other kids can pay.
  • Hoggirl, elegantlion, nansk and 4 others like this

#107 amathis229

amathis229

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 76 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 07:26 PM

As for the physics not offered at some large percentage of GA high schools... Georgia Virtual offers physics on level, honors, and AP. Every public school student in Georgia has access to GAVS. Is it perfect? No. But every public school student has access. And other kids can pay.

 

Yes! Homeschoolers can take up to 3 classes a semester through GaVS for no charge.


 

  • daijobu likes this

#108 lewelma

lewelma

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6132 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:37 PM

Foreign language is not a hard and fast rule at universities that say it is.  There is no foreign language requirement in NZ schools, and NZ kids get into American universities all the time.



#109 MBM

MBM

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3758 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:26 AM

Foreign language is best taught to toddlers immersion style by native speakers. Neurologically, that is the best.

I studied both Latin and German via long distance learning before internet years ago in my little rez town. I can still hear in my mind my teacher singing in Latin on cassette tapes. :D
  • creekland likes this

#110 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:41 AM

Well, to offer something as part of their education is different than to simply require it on the other end. Perhaps we can agree on that?

Kids from all different backgrounds need opportunities. If your opportunities are sparse in the language department than having to check a bunch of boxes unrelated to your degree is a waste of time. If there were great opportunities, you had no language disabilities, and nothing else stood in your way (cancer, foster care, and a lot of other things), then I think it would be a great thing.

I cannot comment on the foreign language opportunities in other states as each state has it's own unique circumstances. I think most Western States deal a lot with students too spread out to efficiently teach them. Many probably have their own unique money hogging problems (our district teaches students speaking 100 different languages http://www.alaskajou...ndred-languages


We have way more fetal alcohol syndrome cases than average and abuse in homes which affects learning,etc.


The district has still managed to get 3 immersion or partial immersion programs going from elementary up in Russian, Spanish, and Japanese. But each elementary school would need its own before it was offered to all students.

I think the rural problem is something few European nations can comprehend considering their size and populations. :)

Now back East and in the big cities is a different story. I really don't know about why they can't. I think more of them do though but perhaps I'm wrong. I would have to check out the data.

I live in the second largest school district in my west coast state and we have one k8 Spanish immersion school (out of over 50 schools in the district) in a very high poverty neighborhood. We were quite interested in it for our son as several of our friends (all native speakers) taught and volunteered in similar schools when we lived in Colorado. But every single teacher and administrator we spoke with highly discouraged it and told us the overall academics at the school were very weak. We really wanted this option, but when we can’t even adequately fund the schools we have, the chances of getting more language immersion programs are very slim. And this is in a district where virtually all kids attend public school. We have very few private schools, and they are all quite small.

#111 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:07 AM

Wow, I had no idea, either. Here is a blurb from a recent article:

Yet, across the country, 2 in 5 high schools don't offer physics, according to an Education Week Research Center analysis of data from the U.S. Department of Education's office for civil rights.

The numbers are worse in some states than others: In both Alaska and Oklahoma, about 70 percent of high schools don't offer the course. Florida and Utah are close behind, with nearly 60 percent of high schools lacking physics. Iowa, New Hampshire, and Maine do much better, with only about 15 percent of schools not offering the subject.

A closer look shows that the problem is associated with school size: Nationally, the high schools that offer physics have an average of about 880 students. Those that don't offer it enroll an average of just 270 students.

https://www.edweek.o...dont-offer.html

There is a map at the bottom of the article that I can't paste. Some of the numbers illustrate the different experiences of Creekland and Heigh Ho:

24 % of high schools in PA don't offer physics, while 46 % of high schools don't offer it in NY. I am shocked that the percentage is so high for NY. 37% of high schools in Georgia don't offer physics.

Interesting. My small rural Iowa high school of about 240 students had physics. It still does even now that’s it down to about 160 students. It’s never offered calculus though. Regardless, lots of grads have gone on to be quite successful in college majors with high math requirements, including going on to top grad schools. Out of my grad class of 60, three have PhDs, including two in math intensive subjects, and I have an MS in Stats. It’s interesting to me because only one of my classmates had a parent with a college degree, unless you count RNs, and my high school offered no honors, AP, or college classes. At the time, I thought of my high school as very mediocre, except when it came to sports. But it was obviously doing something right. Even lots of average students in my graduating class earned college degrees.

And I never took physics in high school, even though I was on the college prep track. There was only one teacher for all math and physics in my high school, and I strongly disliked him. In order to take physics and precalc my senior year, I would have had him first and last period, and I couldn’t face that. I actually learned most of the physics I know while taking calculus in college, as almost all of the word problems were physics related.

#112 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:15 AM

For the top students, study for the SAT/ACT is for the purpose of raising a 34 so they can get in to a college that will give them the opportunity to stretch, unlike their high school. These kids need the details they didn't think of on their own, or get from personal reading, and they can grab some of it from a prep book. Its a shame that many of our top students can't access honors level coursework. Only half of all public high schools offer physics...and that's gen ed physics, not honors, and it looks like the old Physical Science courses not like the Physics in our day. Similar for calc. We are deliberately stripping our rural areas of their future physicians by underfunding their top students who don't come from wealth.

Despite a shortage in many healthcare fields, including doctors, our country is denying opportunities to many of our interested and qualified young people, rural and otherwise, because we do not provide nearly enough training slots in professional healthcare programs. Instead, we rely on people from other countries to make up the shortages.
  • creekland and daijobu like this

#113 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:30 AM

I am unwilling to fully absolve the "game" or the college admissions system for the escalation in challenging coursework and extracurriculars among high school students. What I find amazing, even through my second round of college applications, is the difference between what a school states it "requires" or expects from their applicants and the statistics of those who are offered admissions/enroll. The same can be applied to scholarship winners. As more students put together more stellar resumés, those who follow in subsequent years will be (probably unofficially) expected to produce the same.

That said, I am also continually amazed at the stories I hear from college students/recent grads I know or meet. Substance abuse and addiction, suicide survival, panic/anxiety treatments, emotional support animal housing exemptions, extreme & risky behavior, all-nighters alternating between partying and studying, and the list goes on. I cannot help but think that the pressure put on students is intense, both in high school and college. I'm not sure how many students pause to breath deeply, to relish the experience, and enjoy the moment.

Clearly what we need is to find balance.

While I haven’t personally heard about the kinds of experiences you mention, college does seem way more intense to me than when I went, at least for students at good schools in tough majors. For instance, my husband, who has taught at many different colleges over the years, felt like our son’s BS in chemistry was more equivalent to an MS when we were in college.

The students also seem way more burnt out at the end of four years and many more seem to be taking time off before grad school. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, just an observation.

#114 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Slacker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17320 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 02:01 AM

The students also seem way more burnt out at the end of four years and many more seem to be taking time off before grad school. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, just an observation.


I do get the feeling of campuses being overcrowded and students worrying about getting their class slots while eating at their food courts. The not being able to get the class slots feeling was less intense at places like engineering schools which has mostly compulsory modules so class allocations were kind of predetermined and easier for the course planner to plan/allocate for. Students would still complain about workload but seemed assured of getting a seat for their courses.

Our favorite car mechanic’s daughter opt for their public school district’s early college program which enable her to graduate with a high school diploma and an associates degree. That shorten the time and money she would need to spend in college. In a way college cost has entice students to opt for their district’s early college program. His daughter was rather sure what college major she wants so early college high school program works for her. My district’s program failed a few years back and they just restarted the program so not sure how successful it would be this time round.

#115 kiana

kiana

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7625 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 08:30 AM

I feel also that there's a lot more pressure to go as fast as possible and not continue because of the cost increase. 



#116 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:06 AM

Foreign language is not a hard and fast rule at universities that say it is.  There is no foreign language requirement in NZ schools, and NZ kids get into American universities all the time.

 

I agree that most "must haves" can be waived (hence my asking about 3 years of History vs 4 for some schools), but my mind also can't help but wonder if it's assumed kids from NZ already have a second language from their younger years.  It's a common belief among many educated folks I know that all kids from first world countries (other than ours) have more than one language, so checking for one might not be on the list of things to do.

 

Then too, if I were to poll kids at my high school (kids, not teachers), I suspect there'd be more than a handful who guessed something other than English as a first language for NZ so who knows how far that carries over into adult lives, though I'd hope college admissions were more like teachers than average students with a few more years.  ;)  


  • lewelma likes this

#117 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:16 AM

Despite a shortage in many healthcare fields, including doctors, our country is denying opportunities to many of our interested and qualified young people, rural and otherwise, because we do not provide nearly enough training slots in professional healthcare programs. Instead, we rely on people from other countries to make up the shortages.

 

Absolutely.  When one sees top students from college not getting into any med school then sees the shortage of residencies, it isn't high school education that's to blame for fewer doctors.

 

Is there any med school outside the Caribbean with an acceptance rate higher than 50% (knowing applicants are already at the top of their game as per AAMC)?

 

https://www.aamc.org...antmatriculant/

 

https://www.aamc.org...actstablea1.pdf

 

51,680 applicants (not applications, but applicants) and 21,338 matriculants  That works out to about 41% to me overall.  I imagine at least a few of the other 59% are qualified enough if they had gotten an acceptance.

 

Average GPA of applicants being 3.56 with a SD of .34.  

 

https://www.aamc.org...ctstablea17.pdf


  • Frances likes this

#118 kiana

kiana

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7625 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:26 AM

Article about residency shortage: http://www.cnn.com/2...ency/index.html

 

We also have a much higher shortage in some areas -- rural/gp, especially. I think part of it is again looking at the absolutely massive cost of medical school and looking at paying it off on a surgeon's salary vs. a gp's salary. 

 

Several of our good science majors here have gotten into med school via a rural physician's initiative, where the cost is significantly reduced as long as they agree to practice as a rural pcp for a certain number of years. It's designed for people who are still mid-college and of course you need to maintain a certain level of gpa. 


  • Hoggirl, Frances, creekland and 1 other like this

#119 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:33 AM

Article about residency shortage: http://www.cnn.com/2...ency/index.html

 

We also have a much higher shortage in some areas -- rural/gp, especially. I think part of it is again looking at the absolutely massive cost of medical school and looking at paying it off on a surgeon's salary vs. a gp's salary. 

 

Several of our good science majors here have gotten into med school via a rural physician's initiative, where the cost is significantly reduced as long as they agree to practice as a rural pcp for a certain number of years. It's designed for people who are still mid-college and of course you need to maintain a certain level of gpa. 

 

My guy in med school now is also looking at some programs that will pay (or help pay) his med school loans.  The high cost certainly plays a role in what one can choose for their job afterward.


  • Frances likes this

#120 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:23 PM

Article about residency shortage: http://www.cnn.com/2...ency/index.html

We also have a much higher shortage in some areas -- rural/gp, especially. I think part of it is again looking at the absolutely massive cost of medical school and looking at paying it off on a surgeon's salary vs. a gp's salary.

Several of our good science majors here have gotten into med school via a rural physician's initiative, where the cost is significantly reduced as long as they agree to practice as a rural pcp for a certain number of years. It's designed for people who are still mid-college and of course you need to maintain a certain level of gpa.

Yes, most definitely a shortage of both medical school slots and residency slots. It would be interesting to see what would happen to the rural problem if we were actually training enough doctors, rather than turning away so many interested, qualified young people. Not everyone is going to get their first choice of residency or job, so it seems like simply have a greater supply would help to at least some extent.

And at least in my state, the definition of rural in order to qualify for the various incentive programs for healthcare providers (not just doctors) is quite broad. It can encompass a GP in the very, very rural eastern part of the state where many counties are larger than some states and very sparsely populated, but also a general surgeon in a small hospital less than an hour from a major city.

Of course the huge cost and resulting debt of medical school and some of the other professional medical programs is also an issue. We were fortunate that by the time my husband decided to finally enter healthcare through pharmacy school (he turned down med school acceptances in college and then again right before starting his PhD), I was able to work full-time and he was able to work during the summers, so we only ended up with a bit more debt than what his employer paid as part of the incentive package. But the amount of debt of some his classmates was staggering.
  • creekland and daijobu like this

#121 amathis229

amathis229

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 76 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:06 PM

Article about residency shortage: http://www.cnn.com/2...ency/index.html

 

We also have a much higher shortage in some areas -- rural/gp, especially. I think part of it is again looking at the absolutely massive cost of medical school and looking at paying it off on a surgeon's salary vs. a gp's salary. 

 

 

 


 

Residing in a rural area, we have observed that many young professionals do not want to deal with the increased "on call" burden that comes with living in a smaller community. Thankfully, our hospital is turning to hospitalists to offset this situation.



#122 lewelma

lewelma

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6132 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:24 PM

I agree that most "must haves" can be waived (hence my asking about 3 years of History vs 4 for some schools), but my mind also can't help but wonder if it's assumed kids from NZ already have a second language from their younger years.  It's a common belief among many educated folks I know that all kids from first world countries (other than ours) have more than one language, so checking for one might not be on the list of things to do.

 

Then too, if I were to poll kids at my high school (kids, not teachers), I suspect there'd be more than a handful who guessed something other than English as a first language for NZ so who knows how far that carries over into adult lives, though I'd hope college admissions were more like teachers than average students with a few more years.  ;)  

 

Fascinating.  NZ students have very little interest in learning another language.  Maori is a state language and you can do immersion school in some places, but it is only spoken in NZ so not many non-Maori students desire to learn it.  All immigrants have a English (or Maori) Language exam to pass if they want to be citizens, so everyone here will speak English. The closest country (Australia) is a 3 hours flight away, and they speak English. So although foreign language is taught in schools, I personally only know of 1 student who has taken 3+ years of a foreign language, and I know of only 2 other students who have done 2 years.

 

However, most New Zealanders do what is known as an 'OE' - overseas experience. https://en.wikipedia...seas_experience  Kiwis usually live in work for 2-5 years in a foreign country in their 20s.  They do this to make sure that they are exposed to other cultures.  I only know 1 person who did not do this, and he was *very* apologetic.

 

So cultural exchange/knowledge, yes. Speaking a foreign language, no. 


Edited by lewelma, 20 January 2018 - 10:26 PM.

  • creekland, daijobu, CinV and 1 other like this

#123 daijobu

daijobu

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2550 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:45 PM

 

 

  Kiwis usually live in work for 2-5 years in a foreign country in their 20s.  They do this to make sure that they are exposed to other cultures.  I only know 1 person who did not do this, and he was *very* apologetic.

 

 

 

I love that you call yourselves kiwis.  Although in contrast to flightless birds, you make an effort to get out of the country?    


  • lewelma likes this

#124 lewelma

lewelma

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6132 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:05 PM

The symbol of the NZ air force (which has no planes) is a flightless bird in a bulls eye.  :thumbup1:

 

https://www.google.c...OJTMg6upEc1PcM:


  • daijobu likes this

#125 *LC

*LC

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 817 posts

Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:40 PM

According to this article, https://www.medscape...icle/880684,the number of med school students is increasing. This is due in part to new med schools opening. It also says the number of residencies is capped by Congress and more are needed.

"Some 21,000 first-year students were enrolled in allopathic medical schools in 2016-2017, which amounts to a 28% increase since 2002-2003, the AAMC reports in an annual survey of deans that it issued today. During that same period, first-year enrollment at osteopathic schools grew 148%, reaching 7369 last year.

Head counts have benefited from the establishment of new schools since 2002-2003 — 22 allopathic and 13 osteopathic."

Since acceptance rates are low, does that mean applications are rising even faster?

#126 Frances

Frances

    Hive Mind Level 2 Worker: Nurse Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2297 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:54 AM

According to this article, https://www.medscape...icle/880684,the number of med school students is increasing. This is due in part to new med schools opening. It also says the number of residencies is capped by Congress and more are needed.

"Some 21,000 first-year students were enrolled in allopathic medical schools in 2016-2017, which amounts to a 28% increase since 2002-2003, the AAMC reports in an annual survey of deans that it issued today. During that same period, first-year enrollment at osteopathic schools grew 148%, reaching 7369 last year.

Head counts have benefited from the establishment of new schools since 2002-2003 — 22 allopathic and 13 osteopathic."

Since acceptance rates are low, does that mean applications are rising even faster?

Yes, the number of slots has increased over the last several years. There was a push to do that, but more is still needed. Because despite that, there are still pretty severe shortages in certain areas and specialties. The rural shortages are pretty well known and whenever healthcare is discussed on the general board, people always talk about very long waits to see certain types of specialists. And of course the aging baby boomers is also a contributor.

While there most definitely needs to be an increase on the residency slots, if only that is done, we are just relying even more on people from other countries to fill jobs that many qualified US students want. Already, about 1/4 of doctors practicing in the US attended medical school outside of the US. It seems that in a country as wealthy as ours with so many qualified and interested young people, if anything, we should be a net exporter of doctors, not a net importer. My personal view is that helping with things like healthcare and education in some foreign countries would be far more effective in the long run than so much military involvement.

I want to make clear that I’m not opposed to foreign medical grads continuing to fill some of the residency slots in the US, just as they do now. It is a great way to spread medical knowledge and training (for those that return to their countries) and also adds to the number of doctors here for those that stay.

And it’s not surprising to me that people are flocking to the medical professions. Besides the ability to make a difference, they are generally fairly secure jobs with low unemployment rates. During the last recession, one of the reasons women in general faired better than men was because more of them retrained for various medical careers. In pharmacy, my husband has coworkers who came from some very difficult backgrounds, and their education and occupation has transformed their lives and the lives of their families.
  • Corraleno and creekland like this

#127 Splash

Splash

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 545 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:09 AM

My daughter is currently taking ASL as her foreign language, she is dyslexic and learning a foreign language would be incredibly difficult.  ASL can be a challenge as part of her LD is processing speed and the teacher is very, very fast expects them to quickly interpret her signing the class.  I also have a son with a language based LD and a husband with a hearing loss.  None did foreign language but ASL.  Husband is college graduate with some masters courses, Son is at community college taking classes and daughter has been admitted to all three schools she's applied to with invitations into their honors program.  None of the colleges are highly selective but they are excellent schools where she can thrive and not have too much pressure. My kids learn about other cultures in other ways.  

 

My four years of high school French did not make me fluent, nor did is really teach me their culture.  I loved it but going to France showed me just how little I'd actually learned despite my A's and home much I loved the class.


  • kiana, CinV and amathis229 like this

#128 chiguirre

chiguirre

    RABble raiser

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7992 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:24 AM

So cultural exchange/knowledge, yes. Speaking a foreign language, no.


That was a long list of countries with reciprocal visa arrangements. Don't you need to learn Spanish if you're doing your OE in Argentina or Peru? Or do most people go to the UK or other English speaking countries?

#129 Roadrunner

Roadrunner

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5341 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:44 AM

Yes, the number of slots has increased over the last several years. There was a push to do that, but more is still needed. Because despite that, there are still pretty severe shortages in certain areas and specialties. The rural shortages are pretty well known and whenever healthcare is discussed on the general board, people always talk about very long waits to see certain types of specialists. And of course the aging baby boomers is also a contributor.

While there most definitely needs to be an increase on the residency slots, if only that is done, we are just relying even more on people from other countries to fill jobs that many qualified US students want. Already, about 1/4 of doctors practicing in the US attended medical school outside of the US. It seems that in a country as wealthy as ours with so many qualified and interested young people, if anything, we should be a net exporter of doctors, not a net importer. My personal view is that helping with things like healthcare and education in some foreign countries would be far more effective in the long run than so much military involvement.

I want to make clear that I’m not opposed to foreign medical grads continuing to fill some of the residency slots in the US, just as they do now. It is a great way to spread medical knowledge and training (for those that return to their countries) and also adds to the number of doctors here for those that stay.

And it’s not surprising to me that people are flocking to the medical professions. Besides the ability to make a difference, they are generally fairly secure jobs with low unemployment rates. During the last recession, one of the reasons women in general faired better than men was because more of them retrained for various medical careers. In pharmacy, my husband has coworkers who came from some very difficult backgrounds, and their education and occupation has transformed their lives and the lives of their families.

I am going to take a guess that there are several reasons we see foreign diplomas from medical schools. First is the cost of medical schools in the US. I know several doctors who went to med school in Caribbean to keep the loans more manageable. I also know kids who still have families abroad (say Pakistan as an example), who chose to go back to those countries for the same reason - cheap med school, but come back for residency. In those examples students aren’t foreigners.
I would venture to guess that foreigners who come to our residency spots aren’t interesting in returning to those countries. I would love to see stats on this, but they are likely coming to stay and immigrate.

Edited by Roadrunner, 21 January 2018 - 10:45 AM.


#130 Hoggirl

Hoggirl

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5118 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:25 AM


My four years of high school French did not make me fluent, nor did is really teach me their culture. I loved it but going to France showed me just how little I'd actually learned despite my A's and home much I loved the class.


Indeed. I only had two years, but it wasn't enough to keep me from accidentally ordering tongue while eating in Paris! I knew it was "boeuf," but it wasn't until I got back to my hotel room and looked it up that I learned which part of the "boeuf" it was! I suppose it could have been worse!
  • daijobu and Roadrunner like this

#131 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:37 PM

Fascinating.  NZ students have very little interest in learning another language.  Maori is a state language and you can do immersion school in some places, but it is only spoken in NZ so not many non-Maori students desire to learn it.  All immigrants have a English (or Maori) Language exam to pass if they want to be citizens, so everyone here will speak English. The closest country (Australia) is a 3 hours flight away, and they speak English. So although foreign language is taught in schools, I personally only know of 1 student who has taken 3+ years of a foreign language, and I know of only 2 other students who have done 2 years.

 

However, most New Zealanders do what is known as an 'OE' - overseas experience. https://en.wikipedia...seas_experience  Kiwis usually live in work for 2-5 years in a foreign country in their 20s.  They do this to make sure that they are exposed to other cultures.  I only know 1 person who did not do this, and he was *very* apologetic.

 

So cultural exchange/knowledge, yes. Speaking a foreign language, no. 

 

This is all very interesting!  Around here we don't learn all that much about NZ.  We know where it is, and due to my hubby, I know they're a sailing mecca!  ;)  But other things?  It's fun learning about the differences in places.

 

Of course, I'd love to learn more via visiting, but alas, there's the bank account issue with that.


  • lewelma likes this

#132 8FillTheHeart

8FillTheHeart

    Alice or Mad Hatter or maybe a little of both

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14385 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:23 PM

My experience with people from other countries being fluent in other languages is different. When we lived in Brazil, maybe 20% of the adults could speak English beyond rudimentary phrases, fewer teens, even though they all studied English in school.

A couple of yrs ago when a local company brought over a large number of French families (one of whom became my dd's French tutor) to the State's for a start-up, maybe 40% of the adults could speak beyond a rudimentary level and none of the teens. I was really shocked at the time bc all of teens had been studying English in school for quite some time, but their English was worse or no better than your typical American teens' high school foreign language skills. Dd could speak to them in French, but her sisters and I couldn't talk to them in English. (Of course that changed after they had been here for a while, but during the first 3 months, it was very difficult to communicate.)
  • creekland likes this

#133 maize

maize

    Maizgyver

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19906 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:30 PM

I do feel strongly about this, because I do not see any of these as a substitute for the mastery of a foreign language which I consider a crucial hallmark of being educated.
If the public schools in my childhood country with a dysfunctional economy and far fewer resources than the US managed to teach me two foreign languages to fluency, I don't see why we cannot do this in a rich first world nation.

I would like to see a requirement for 8-10 years of a first and 6-8 years of a second foreign language in school for college bound students.


I agree.

In my state there are foreign language immersion programs that start in kindergarten or first grade. I have one child attending such a program and plan to send another next year. I've been quite impressed so far.

Immersion goes through sixth grade and then they get a one hour a day class on through high school if they want.
  • creekland and Kassia like this

#134 Matryoshka

Matryoshka

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11410 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 12:11 AM

My experience with people from other countries being fluent in other languages is different. When we lived in Brazil, maybe 20% of the adults could speak English beyond rudimentary phrases, fewer teens, even though they all studied English in school.

A couple of yrs ago when a local company brought over a large number of French families (one of whom became my dd's French tutor) to the State's for a start-up, maybe 40% of the adults could speak beyond a rudimentary level and none of the teens. I was really shocked at the time bc all of teens had been studying English in school for quite some time, but their English was worse or no better than your typical American teens' high school foreign language skills. Dd could speak to them in French, but her sisters and I couldn't talk to them in English. (Of course that changed after they had been here for a while, but during the first 3 months, it was very difficult to communicate.)


The French seem to have a bit of an attitude about learning foreign languages, as it wasn't so long ago that their language was the international standard, and others were expected to learn French. Very similar to the attitude among most native English speakers today, except unfortunately for the French, that attitude no longer reflects reality...

That attitude is of course by no means universal, any more than it is among native English speakers...

I do also wonder if native speakers of Germanic languages might have an easier time learning English (also Germanic) than others??
  • MarkT likes this

#135 MarkT

MarkT

    Empress Bee

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPip
  • 2677 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:39 AM

The French seem to have a bit of an attitude about learning foreign languages, as it wasn't so long ago that their language was the international standard, and others were expected to learn French. Very similar to the attitude among most native English speakers today, except unfortunately for the French, that attitude no longer reflects reality...
 

I would agree with this statement in general but there are certainly exceptions. A couple of decades ago I meant my distant cousin in the south of France. She was absolutely fluent in English (with a British like accent - she spent some time there) and also knew some German. Her family does international business trade. I was extremely impressed! 

 

I took 5 years of French in MS/HS and learned to read quite well and was able to read the daily newspaper and some magazines while visiting 15 years after HS. My spoken French was just a bit above bad!

 

It was a great experience and I brought my Mother there the next year to meet these relatives.



#136 Matryoshka

Matryoshka

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11410 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:01 AM

I would agree with this statement in general but there are certainly exceptions. A couple of decades ago I meant my distant cousin in the south of France. She was absolutely fluent in English (with a British like accent - she spent some time there) and also knew some German. Her family does international business trade. I was extremely impressed! 

 

LOL, that's why I threw in the caveat that it is certainly not a universal attitude!  Most Americans have this attitude even more strongly than the French, and yet somehow I'm very fluent in two foreign languages, so I'm one of those exceptions! :)  The problem here is so pervasive (and so well known) that I've often had the experience of people I'm speaking with in other languages having cognitive dissonance when I tell them I'm American... because Americans don't speak foreign languages, and certainly not well enough to pass for native.  The problem is after all just widespread lack of interest and inclination, not a genetic intolerance to language learning... :lol:


  • creekland and MarkT like this

#137 maize

maize

    Maizgyver

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19906 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:30 AM

LOL, that's why I threw in the caveat that it is certainly not a universal attitude! Most Americans have this attitude even more strongly than the French, and yet somehow I'm very fluent in two foreign languages, so I'm one of those exceptions! :) The problem here is so pervasive (and so well known) that I've often had the experience of people I'm speaking with in other languages having cognitive dissonance when I tell them I'm American... because Americans don't speak foreign languages, and certainly not well enough to pass for native. The problem is after all just widespread lack of interest and inclination, not a genetic intolerance to language learning... :lol:


Quality of instruction matters too.

When I lived in France foreign language instruction started in 6th grade but many teachers were not truly fluent themselves and had horrendous accents.

#138 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 10:41 AM

My experience with people from other countries being fluent in other languages is different. When we lived in Brazil, maybe 20% of the adults could speak English beyond rudimentary phrases, fewer teens, even though they all studied English in school.

A couple of yrs ago when a local company brought over a large number of French families (one of whom became my dd's French tutor) to the State's for a start-up, maybe 40% of the adults could speak beyond a rudimentary level and none of the teens. I was really shocked at the time bc all of teens had been studying English in school for quite some time, but their English was worse or no better than your typical American teens' high school foreign language skills. Dd could speak to them in French, but her sisters and I couldn't talk to them in English. (Of course that changed after they had been here for a while, but during the first 3 months, it was very difficult to communicate.)

 

Our experience traveling is similar to yours.  Those who deal with tourists (and/or business) often have a decent understanding of English (some better than others, of course), but in the general population?  Not so much.  Not even close.  Words or phrases - maybe, but don't count on much.

 

When we get exchange students it often takes them a bit to be able to converse well in English, but they almost always end up doing well.  It's just a rough start and using written words helps considerably over spoken.  These are students who stay a year.  When we get two week exchange students, most make very little effort to even try to learn more of the language beyond some phrases.  I'd usually help as a translator when the students were from France.  My assistance was greatly appreciated.  I'm nowhere near fluent in French myself, but did reasonably well in a statewide conference my 10th grade year having come in third.  I've lost a bit of what I used to know simply because I rarely use French here in PA or in our travels, but if I head to Quebec or with the exchange students, some comes back.  In Jordan, since I only know 3 words of Arabic, I found my brain switching to French simply because it was "lost" and knew English wasn't correct!

 

Youngest son thought he knew Arabic quite well here in the states - and he did - for here.  Over there?  Not even close.  He was one of only three who tested into the Advanced Arabic class in his group though.  His experience is very similar to exchange students who come here.  He could certainly get around far better than I could.  I'm glad we visited the country when he was there to help translate.  Of his host family (who has hosted students for the past several years), only the dad and kids spoke some English - not fluent - but enough to converse with the basics.  The Dad owns an international shipping business.  The kids are my own kids ages (more or less) so have learned it recently in school.  The mom spoke none.  There were 3 and 5 year old grandkids we met once.  Those kids go to a private school and are learning English, French, and I think Chinese.  Their English is pretty much as good as any 3 or 5 year old you'd meet here as far as asking toddler questions is concerned.  We were impressed!  If they keep with it, they could indeed be fluent as they age.

 

But perception is 100% different.  Ask most Americans about foreign language and they'll tell you that "everybody over there" speaks several languages.  I hear that a ton.  If folks just travel "over there" and stick to the tourist spots, I can see how they'd get that misconception.

 

When in Jordan pretty much every single guide or taxi driver we encountered was astounded that my lad spoke Arabic - many praised him for his level of knowledge.  They didn't think any American ever spoke Arabic and wondered how he had learned.

 

Perception goes both ways.


  • daijobu, snowbeltmom, TarynB and 1 other like this

#139 snowbeltmom

snowbeltmom

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3885 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 10:55 AM

I think it is extremely difficult to learn to speak a foreign language if you don't have the opportunity to immerse yourself in the language. Immersion is much easier in Europe when many times you can drive a few hours to another country to get that immersion experience. Here in the US, especially in the rural Midwest, the chances of running into someone fluent in a foreign language are extremely slim.
  • creekland, madteaparty, Sneezyone and 1 other like this

#140 Matryoshka

Matryoshka

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11410 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:05 AM

Quality of instruction matters too.

When I lived in France foreign language instruction started in 6th grade but many teachers were not truly fluent themselves and had horrendous accents.


Yes, this is also very true. It becomes a generational problem... if the previous generation learned badly and has horrid accents, many if those end up teaching the next generation (it does not seem that the exceptions are enough to fill all the language teacher positions in those countries, US very much included...)

#141 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:07 AM

I think it is extremely difficult to learn to speak a foreign language if you don't have the opportunity to immerse yourself in the language. Immersion is much easier in Europe when many times you can drive a few hours to another country to get that immersion experience. Here in the US, especially in the rural Midwest, the chances of running into someone fluent in a foreign language are extremely slim.

 

But a lot can be accomplished when instruction begins in elementary school and is consistent through high school. If you have a foreign language class daily for 8-10 years, you will learn - unless you actively refuse.

I grew up when it was not possible to "drive a few hours to another country" because were not allowed to. Iron curtain and all that

My English teachers had never been allowed to even visit an English speaking country. We never heard native speakers and had no access to English language TV or audiobooks.

The Russian teachers had it better; they were able to spend time in the Soviet union. But the students still were taught in a classroom model and not through total immersion.

 

One big difference I noticed when I compared FL textbooks was that class was basically conducted in the foreign language, and the book had all instructions in the foreign language. That you learned by immersion. I found it appalling how much English there was in the FL texts that I looked at here in the US.

 

ETA: But I agree that FL instruction is difficult, and I see it as the biggest shortcoming of my homeschool that I have not managed to teach DS a foreign language (he is bilingual, so at least I managed that, but has no third language). DD achieved fluency in her third language through outsourcing (private tutor plus five semesters at college while in high school)

 


Edited by regentrude, 22 January 2018 - 11:16 AM.

  • MarkT likes this

#142 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:13 AM

My experience with people from other countries being fluent in other languages is different. When we lived in Brazil, maybe 20% of the adults could speak English beyond rudimentary phrases, fewer teens, even though they all studied English in school.

A couple of yrs ago when a local company brought over a large number of French families (one of whom became my dd's French tutor) to the State's for a start-up, maybe 40% of the adults could speak beyond a rudimentary level and none of the teens. I was really shocked at the time bc all of teens had been studying English in school for quite some time, but their English was worse or no better than your typical American teens' high school foreign language skills. Dd could speak to them in French, but her sisters and I couldn't talk to them in English. (Of course that changed after they had been here for a while, but during the first 3 months, it was very difficult to communicate.)

 

How good was their reading ability and passive vocabulary?

 

I remember how extremely difficult it was to make the jump to conversing with native speakers, especially in group situations, or to follow foreign films.

I spent a summer working in Russia after ten years of Russian instruction, and spent a few months in the US after ten years of English instruction. Both times, my first immersion experiences were very frustrating.

At that point, I was able to read Russian literature in the original and carry an extensive correspondence with Russian pen pals. I was reading voraciously in English for recreation and could write fluently.

But it took a while before I was able to freely converse, and even longer before  could follow group conversations.


Edited by regentrude, 22 January 2018 - 11:17 AM.

  • chiguirre and MarkT like this

#143 snowbeltmom

snowbeltmom

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3885 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:20 AM

But a lot can be accomplished when instruction begins in elementary school and is consistent through high school. If you have a foreign language class daily for 8-10 years, you will learn - unless you actively refuse.
I grew up when it was not possible to "drive a few hours to another country" because were not allowed to. Iron curtain and all that
My English teachers had never been allowed to even visit an English speaking country. We never heard native speakers and had no access to English language TV or audiobooks.
The Russian teachers had it better; they were able to spend time in the Soviet union. But the students still were taught in a classroom model and not through total immersion.
 
One big difference I noticed when I compared FL textbooks was that class was basically conducted in the foreign language, and the book had all instructions in the foreign language. That you learned by immersion. I found it appalling how much English there was in the FL texts that I looked at here in the US.


I think you would have an extremely difficult time finding enough qualified instructors to offer the type of learning experience you are suggesting. I think one of the reasons that most of the foreign language textbooks in the US are written in English is because the instructors would also have a difficult time working in a text that was written mainly in the foreign language.

Many of the schools in the US are struggling getting all of its graduates to be fluent in English. Learning a second language is extremely low on the priority list.
  • kiana and JoJosMom like this

#144 katilac

katilac

    Chief Educational Executive & Cruise Director

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9523 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:20 AM

Those who deal with tourists (and/or business) often have a decent understanding of English (some better than others, of course), but in the general population?  Not so much.  Not even close.  Words or phrases - maybe, but don't count on much.

 

 

 

 

 

I spoke to a teacher who traveled in Asia to observe 'Asian math' in action, and he said the same thing. Also that the students were no more enamored of algebra than American students, and no more polite about expressing it  :lol:

 

As for me, I have done repeated research at Disney World, and I can tell you that the English skills of the foreign workers are often . . . not awesome. I'd say usually at rough tourist level; they can tell you where the bathrooms are and when the parks close, but often not much beyond that. With exceptions, of course, we have had some fun conversations with people about where they were from and how they liked America, but there didn't seem to be a pattern to it (it's not like workers from XYZ country are more fluent). 


  • creekland likes this

#145 8FillTheHeart

8FillTheHeart

    Alice or Mad Hatter or maybe a little of both

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14385 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

How good was their reading ability and passive vocabulary?

 

I remember how extremely difficult it was to make the jump to conversing with native speakers, especially in group situations, or to follow foreign films.

I spent a summer working in Russia after ten years of Russian instruction, and spent a few months in the US after ten years of English instruction. Both times, my first immersion experiences were very frustrating.

At that point, I was able to read Russian literature in the original and carry an extensive correspondence with Russian pen pals. I was reading voraciously in English for recreation and could write fluently.

But it took a while before I was able to freely converse, and even longer before  could follow group conversations.

 

For most, I have no idea.  But, for the people we really knew and interacted with quite a bit, no, they didn't understand  more than they could speak.  (I can definitely relate to that ability, though, b/c that is where I was with Portuguese.)  My dd's French tutor had to be written to in French.   She wrote her LOR in French and we had to have it translated.  The teens could not understand enough English in any direction for it to be considered useful.



#146 Caroline

Caroline

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5855 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 12:04 PM

That is how I was with French at the end of high school. I can still read it very well, but I cannot write or carry a conversation in it any more. However, I am going to work with one of our French teachers (who grew up speaking both English and French at home) to get better. My DH works for a French company and we might go live there at some point.

How good was their reading ability and passive vocabulary?

I remember how extremely difficult it was to make the jump to conversing with native speakers, especially in group situations, or to follow foreign films.
I spent a summer working in Russia after ten years of Russian instruction, and spent a few months in the US after ten years of English instruction. Both times, my first immersion experiences were very frustrating.
At that point, I was able to read Russian literature in the original and carry an extensive correspondence with Russian pen pals. I was reading voraciously in English for recreation and could write fluently.
But it took a while before I was able to freely converse, and even longer before could follow group conversations.


  • creekland, regentrude, maize and 1 other like this

#147 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 01:33 PM

That is how I was with French at the end of high school. I can still read it very well, but I cannot write or carry a conversation in it any more. However, I am going to work with one of our French teachers (who grew up speaking both English and French at home) to get better. My DH works for a French company and we might go live there at some point.

 

Similar here.  My third place in the state high school competition was impromptu speaking.  I wouldn't even get to states in that subject now, but at least I can still read it ok.  I've been contemplating doing duolingo to try to dust off my skills some as I age.



#148 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27040 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:10 PM

Similar here.  My third place in the state high school competition was impromptu speaking.  I wouldn't even get to states in that subject now, but at least I can still read it ok.  I've been contemplating doing duolingo to try to dust off my skills some as I age.

 

I am currently doing that to revive my Russian that I have not used since 1989. I was fluent back then, so it's a shame.

However, I do not find that duolingo works very well for this, because it is soooo slow. I remember the vocabulary words after they have been (re-)introduced the first time in duolingo; it all comes back - so I do not need the oodles of practice it demands before letting me advance. 

I remember the grammar and can still do the six cases, genders, and verb conjugations with small mistakes; I do not need the very slow introduction of grammar in duolingo.

 

I am thinking of getting some children's books instead.


Edited by regentrude, 22 January 2018 - 02:11 PM.

  • creekland, maize and Kassia like this

#149 creekland

creekland

    Retired homeschooler!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24940 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:33 PM

I am currently doing that to revive my Russian that I have not used since 1989. I was fluent back then, so it's a shame.

However, I do not find that duolingo works very well for this, because it is soooo slow. I remember the vocabulary words after they have been (re-)introduced the first time in duolingo; it all comes back - so I do not need the oodles of practice it demands before letting me advance. 

I remember the grammar and can still do the six cases, genders, and verb conjugations with small mistakes; I do not need the very slow introduction of grammar in duolingo.

 

I am thinking of getting some children's books instead.

 

Interesting, so thanks for sharing.  I think I'm mostly still ok with reading and writing.  It's speaking I want to brush up on.  My brain tends to translate now, so it slows down and stumbles (breaking my understanding of the conversation).  It never used to have to do that when I used French regularly.  It could think in French.

 

In Jordan it switched to thinking in French when trying to come up with Arabic to say (since it knew English was wrong), so I know it's still possible.  I just need a bit dusted off and thought more practice might do it.  What I really need is a good friend who speaks French, but in our area, those are very difficult to find.  I don't even get to interact with the French teacher at school all that often.



#150 Matryoshka

Matryoshka

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11410 posts

Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:35 PM

I am currently doing that to revive my Russian that I have not used since 1989. I was fluent back then, so it's a shame.

However, I do not find that duolingo works very well for this, because it is soooo slow. I remember the vocabulary words after they have been (re-)introduced the first time in duolingo; it all comes back - so I do not need the oodles of practice it demands before letting me advance. 

I remember the grammar and can still do the six cases, genders, and verb conjugations with small mistakes; I do not need the very slow introduction of grammar in duolingo.

 

I am thinking of getting some children's books instead.

 

I don't seem to lose language as fast as many, so it may or not be because I have always made a point of reading in both my foreign languages.  If you already know the grammar and have a decent vocab, I think reading is much better to retain - it integrates all the pieces.  Watching TV/movies or maybe the news, while not as ideal as live conversation, is also good to keep up skills. 


  • katilac, creekland and Kassia like this