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Anybody posted about the 13 siblings found chained in California home?


VaKim
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I find the unopen toys and DVDs and the pie thing weird and bizarre. I mean it is cruel, but it seems so twisted and crazy. Were the parents living some kind of fantasy that they were perfect wonderful parents but it was about image even to themselves? Posting happy family pictures? Baby belly pics? Buying DVDs and toys but not using them? It's like they were playing a game. It makes no sense to me at all.

b

 

If I had to guess...some of the toys and DVDs were the mom's and they were the "collectible" variety...the kind that people think are worth more unopened.

 

Maybe not all were collectible, but I'd put money on it that some were.

 

I know parents whose kids get gifts and then have this system where they have to "earn" the gifts. So instead of a pile of birthday or Christmas gifts all at once, the kids get them a few at a time.

 

Neither of these things are the way we do toys...we're the "rip it open but don't lose the pieces or break it before you can play with it" type of family.

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It has to be in the same realm of hoarding. Hoarders don't see their surroundings. They don't think about what they are going to do with x when they get home. It's all about the feeling they get from collecting. 

 

dh grandparents were hoarders where there are trails and no where to sit.  it was about their anxiety and need for control.

 

 

 

I know parents whose kids get gifts and then have this system where they have to "earn" the gifts. So instead of a pile of birthday or Christmas gifts all at once, the kids get them a few at a time.

 

 

imo:  those aren't "gifts".  you don't have to "earn" a gift - a gift is a gift.  it is free of obligation.  i'm troubled they are teaching their children you have to earn a gift, and it will be very deeply ingrained.

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b

 

If I had to guess...some of the toys and DVDs were the mom's and they were the "collectible" variety...the kind that people think are worth more unopened.

 

Maybe not all were collectible, but I'd put money on it that some were.

 

I know parents whose kids get gifts and then have this system where they have to "earn" the gifts. So instead of a pile of birthday or Christmas gifts all at once, the kids get them a few at a time.

 

Neither of these things are the way we do toys...we're the "rip it open but don't lose the pieces or break it before you can play with it" type of family.

 

Ok, that does make sense particularly combined with the Disney thing.  Maybe even the Elvis thing.

 

I know it's crazy trying to make any sense of all this--but often evil does have some "sense" (as in logical in the mind of the evildoer--not makes sense as a viable worldview). 

 

This just seems all over the place and, in the absence of drugs, I can't even conceive of how anyone can live with feces and urine and never clean or let anyone clean.  This is both parents--two of them of the same kind of crazy. 

 

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This post has me a bit shaken. 

 

My childhood best friend's mom showed up to school one day and pulled her out and I never heard from her again. We didn't even get to say goodbye. Knowing what I know now, there were signs of abuse, though she never confided in me and we were inseparable. It breaks my heart. My hope is that her mom pulled her out while dad was at work, they changed their name and made a happy new life for themselves. Knowing the stats after reading that study, I dread it was something worse. There's nothing I could have done as an extremely naive girl. I went to her house often after she left, hoping to see her, but the place was empty. I've thought about her often and tried to look her up with no luck. I hope she got out of there and my fears are wrong.  :crying:

 

 

It has to be in the same realm of hoarding. Hoarders don't see their surroundings. They don't think about what they are going to do with x when they get home. It's all about the feeling they get from collecting. 

Honestly it keeps echoing in my head, too. 

 

DD had a new classmate start at her school in 5th grade.  She was so nice.  She had two younger sisters at the same school.  (I will call the girl Sandy.)  There were some odd things with these girls but nothing that could really be pointed to as wrong.  Just odd.

 

1.  The school did not have uniforms but all three girls were required to wear matching uniform like clothing every day by their dad and step mom.  It was a bit strange.  That uniform was all they wore the whole year.  At first some of the other kids made fun of them but the girls got along well with everyone, the teachers nipped the teasing in the bud whenever they were in ear shot, and the teasing died down pretty quickly, thankfully. 

 

2.  The girls were excellent students, made casual friends pretty easily, but did not talk about home life.  And no one was invited to their house nor did they accept invitations to anyone else's house.  When Sandy was invited to my daughter's birthday party, a gift was brought to the school and the father called me at home to apologize but his children would not be able to attend the party.  That was not odd by itself (well a little odd since a gift was sent through the school even though we had stated that gifts were not expected) but was a little odd in the grand scheme of things since they NEVER accepted invitations to go to ANYTHING with ANY classmate after school.  Nothing.  The girls were well liked.  We all tried to make them feel welcome and invited them to play dates and other activities.  They were not allowed to do anything outside of school with their classmates.

 

3.  We were told that the mom had died and dad had remarried but the girls would clam up when anyone asked where they had moved from (they were not from the area) and they never talked about their mother, father or step mother.  Their local address was not released to anyone and their phone number was a cell phone from another zip code.  At first we were told the number was a friend's cell phone they were borrowing until they got settled in the new area.  The number never changed. 

 

4.  The girls were not allowed to go on field trips with the other classmates.  The one time there was an exception Sandy was allowed to go on an educational field trip with the other 5th graders but her step mother came with us, Sandy was not allowed to leave her step mother's side, and when we stopped to eat at a restaurant with an outdoor play area Sandy was not allowed to play or even eat with her classmates.  She ate in her step mother's car and remained there until we returned to the school. 

 

5.  The school had really nice yearbooks for low cost.  5th grade was the last grade in the school so the 5th graders had a special section for their "graduation year".  When orders were placed (I was in charge of the orders) the middle child of this family was allowed to order a yearbook but not the oldest.  When I talked to the father I asked if he was certain he didn't want one for the oldest since they were going to have a book signing and a special party in class for the 5th graders and his daughter had several photos in that section of the book.  She might like one for herself.  He declined.  He indicated that she had not earned the book.  (She was a straight A student and impeccably behaved.).  

 

6.  Sandy was close with another girl in the class and the other girl's mother was a friend of mine.  On the final day for yearbook orders Sandy's closest school friend and her mother (my friend) contacted me and ordered a book for this girl because they wanted Sandy to have a book but Sandy had told my friend's daughter that her parents had not ordered her one (she was the only 5th grader that would have been without a yearbook).  I placed the order but let the teacher know that the book had not been ordered by Sandy's parents but by another student in the class to be given to the girl as a gift.  (The teacher would have to distribute the books.)  The teacher was very uncomfortable.  She told me that if the father had said no he meant no.  The teacher did not want to buck the girl's father and was uncertain what to do about the yearbook. Apparently they had had run ins during the year (she did not share details). I worried so much about that yearbook.  I did not want it to be an issue for Sandy or the teacher with regards to the father, but since a classmate had ordered the book and I was not in charge of distribution it was out of my hands.  I did feel awful that Sandy might be the only 5th grader without a book.  But if the father had stated flat out that Sandy had not earned one and could not have it but someone gave it to her, would that create a huge problem for Sandy? 

 

7.  It became a moot point.  Right in the middle of rehearsals for the end of school performance, a few days before the yearbooks were scheduled to be distributed and a little over a week before school would be out for the summer, the parents unexpectedly and without warning came to school and pulled all three girls out.  DD came home devastated.  Several members of her class were crying when I went to pick DD up.  The students were in the middle of rehearsals and didn't even get to say goodbye.  One minute Sandy was waiting to go on stage and the next the parents were pulling her out the door.  On a side note, no forwarding address was given so even the middle child never received her paid for yearbook. I have no idea if their final grades were ever sent on or not.

 

It bothered me at the time but as I have gotten older it has bothered me even more.  Where did they go?  Were they o.k.?  Why did they leave like they did?  Should we have done something more?  And what would that have been?  The girls were clean, nicely dressed (even if it was a uniform), polite, well spoken, made great grades, seemed well fed, etc.

 

I just don't know.  What if they needed help and no one helped them?  What if their mom was really still alive and they had been illegally removed by the non-custodial parent and simply TOLD their mother had died?  So many scenarios play out in my head now.  But maybe things were just fine.  Maybe they didn't need help at all.  How does one know?

 

In the case from the OP those kids WERE in school originally.  No one helped them.  No one realized the extent of the issues.  Maybe things were not quite as bad then but from reports there was already abuse.  Being in school didn't get them help.  And if they were in school in the state of Texas they would have had to have had a wellness physical signed by a licensed physician.  The parents were not homeschooling then.  No one helped.  The family just packed up and moved when things got uncomfortable.  I do think "homeschooling" can potentially keep children even more isolated and unlikely to get help but with families like the one in the OP I don't think additional regulations for homeschoolers would have helped those kids.  Their parents weren't following the law anyway.  Just think how long they were able to stay under the radar.

 

I really don't know what the answer is.  

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They're bringing in cadaver dogs  :(

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293719/cadaver-dogs-aid-House-Horrors-investigation.html

 

 

I'm very much feeling an eye for an eye right now.  I was surprised/shocked to learn that in Iran that still happens.  Like a girl was blinded by acid by some guy she spurned and she had the option of having him blinded with acid.  (Or I think she could take money).  But right now?? Yeah, I'd like them chained to beds in their own filth for just a month....one meal a day.... people eating their favorite foods in front of them... marching around in the middle of the night for hours on end.... etc.  

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They're bringing in cadaver dogs   :(

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293719/cadaver-dogs-aid-House-Horrors-investigation.html

 

 

I'm very much feeling an eye for an eye right now.  I was surprised/shocked to learn that in Iran that still happens.  Like a girl was blinded by acid by some guy she spurned and she had the option of having him blinded with acid.  (Or I think she could take money).  But right now?? Yeah, I'd like them chained to beds in their own filth for just a month....one meal a day.... people eating their favorite foods in front of them... marching around in the middle of the night for hours on end.... etc.  

 

Interesting. I feel so so bad for these kids but I don't feel especially vengeful to the parents (and I am not the most merciful). I guess I think they must be be so "off", sick, mentally disturbed that I don't even feel mad at them (though their actions are of course horrible). I guess I feel that no reasonable normal person could voluntarily treat their kids like this while  having a grasp on reality.

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Interesting. I feel so so bad for these kids but I don't feel especially vengeful to the parents (and I am not the most merciful). I guess I think they must be be so "off", sick, mentally disturbed that I don't even feel mad at them (though their actions are of course horrible). I guess I feel that no reasonable normal person could voluntarily treat their kids like this while  having a grasp on reality.

I kind of lean this way, too.  Their actions are so far off from normal, so completely out there, that I really wonder what happened to the parents?  I pity them.  I feel horror for the children but I pity the parents.  On the flip side, though, they were deliberately hiding what they were doing with the children from outside eyes.  They must have had some idea that what they were doing would not have been accepted by society.  But maybe I am wrong.  Maybe in their twisted reality they thought they were protecting their children from bad outside influences.  Maybe in their damaged brains they thought they were "teaching" them.  I don't know.  It turns my stomach that they were able to do what they were doing for so long, but I don't feel hatred, just horror and a strong desire to understand how it went so wrong.

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I'm thinking the kids are like people who lived in concentration camps. For years and years and years.

Exactly.  :crying:

 

How does one ever truly recover from something like that?  Especially if that is basically all you have known?  Physically and mentally, how does one ever get past that?

 

I think about all the threads over the year where people have suffered long term trauma from bullying at school or a really unhealthy marriage or growing up with a parent suffering from NPD or some other mental illness or disorder.  All those people that still suffer, still deal with the emotional damage that was done.  It rarely ever truly goes away.  Then look at those kids, at the level of long term horror they have suffered.  I feel sick.  I can't even fathom trying to lead anywhere near a normal life after that. 

 

At least now they have a chance.  I hope they can stay together and get significant long term support.  They are going to need it.

 

And I hope the parents NEVER have a chance to inflict harm on anyone else ever again.

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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OneStep, I, too, have a deep need to know why/how this could have happened--what was going through their mind's.  And we may never know.

 

The scary thing is that this really isn't that abnormal.   If you talk to people who work in CPS, they'll tell you all sorts of horror stories.    There are some really sick sick people out there.

 

 

I also think that every high school student, public or private, should have to take and pass a child development/parenting class as well as a basic home ec/cooking class.  Every single student.  It's something I would even want to require of homeschoolers.  Not this case, but often times, abusive parents have unrealistic expectations regarding what their children should be able to do (such as being toilet trained) at certain ages.  

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The scary thing is that this really isn't that abnormal.   If you talk to people who work in CPS, they'll tell you all sorts of horror stories.    There are some really sick sick people out there.

 

 

I also think that every high school student, public or private, should have to take and pass a child development/parenting class as well as a basic home ec/cooking class.  Every single student.  It's something I would even want to require of homeschoolers.  Not this case, but often times, abusive parents have unrealistic expectations regarding what their children should be able to do (such as being toilet trained) at certain ages.  

 

Yeah, I can't imagine what it must be like working for CPS.  I don't think emotionally I could handle it day in and day out for years and years.

 

 

As for the second part, regardless of whether abuse could be involved I think kids need training in personal financial management and cooking and parenting and other critical life skills.  Many parents do not teach these things and the schools have moved further and further away from including life skills in their instruction.  I feel that these skills are critical, are needed daily and yet they are not valued by a large chunk of society.  Not every child picks these things up just at random.  In fact, I would hazard to guess that most don't.  

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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This post has me a bit shaken.

 

My childhood best friend's mom showed up to school one day and pulled her out and I never heard from her again. We didn't even get to say goodbye. Knowing what I know now, there were signs of abuse, though she never confided in me and we were inseparable. It breaks my heart. My hope is that her mom pulled her out while dad was at work, they changed their name and made a happy new life for themselves. Knowing the stats after reading that study, I dread it was something worse. There's nothing I could have done as an extremely naive girl. I went to her house often after she left, hoping to see her, but the place was empty. I've thought about her often and tried to look her up with no luck. I hope she got out of there and my fears are wrong. :crying:

 

 

It has to be in the same realm of hoarding. Hoarders don't see their surroundings. They don't think about what they are going to do with x when they get home. It's all about the feeling they get from collecting.

That's so sad! Can you search online for her? Facebook, google..?
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Exactly.  :crying:

 

How does one ever truly recover from something like that?  Especially if that is basically all you have known?  Physically and mentally, how does one ever get past that?

 

I think about all the threads over the year where people have suffered long term trauma from bullying at school or a really unhealthy marriage or growing up with a parent suffering from NPD or some other mental illness or disorder.  All those people that still suffer, still deal with the emotional damage that was done.  It rarely ever truly goes away.  Then look at those kids, at the level of long term horror they have suffered.  I feel sick.  I can't even fathom trying to lead anywhere near a normal life after that. 

 

At least now they have a chance.  I hope they can stay together and get significant long term support.  They are going to need it.

 

And I hope the parents NEVER have a chance to inflict harm on anyone else ever again.

 

I have hope that most people are more resilient than we think. People who survived concentration camps were often able to live mostly normal lives after. Some weren't, but I hope that these children and young adults will be able to make it. I think the fact that at least 2 of them tried to escape and made a plan means they are strong and will be able to create better lives for themselves now.

 

I don't hate the parents. I think they must be really, really sick. It's the only way anything makes sense. 

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The 20/20 episode about the OP kids also featured "The Wolf Pack" that was the children kept in a NY apt for decades. It parallels the OP story. One of the older kids figured out a way to escape and got help. At one point they were all out and a cop could see something was off and asked them separate from their parents if everything was alright. They said they were fine. They have all grown and traveled and offered some advice to the OP kids.

The wolf pack kids though were not starved and beaten.

 

Several articles have reported that these kids were starved to the point where neurological damage is probable :(

Edited by maize
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And I hope the parents NEVER have a chance to inflict harm on anyone else ever again.

 

I'll be surprised if they're ever out where they would be in a position to harm someone. 

I also think there is mental illness.  so much disconnect and irrational behavior.

 

OneStep, I, too, have a deep need to know why/how this could have happened--what was going through their mind's.  And we may never know.

 

never try to understand irrationality. 

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I'll be surprised if they're ever out where they would be in a position to harm someone.

I also think there is mental illness. so much disconnect and irrational behavior.

 

 

never try to understand irrationality.

I think thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the reasons why these horrible, crazy people are able to fly under the radar. Normal people canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even imagine that stuff like this could possibly be happening, especially in their own seemingly normal, average neighborhoods.

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I think thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the reasons why these horrible, crazy people are able to fly under the radar. Normal people canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even imagine that stuff like this could possibly be happening, especially in their own seemingly normal, average neighborhoods.

Agreed.  I was looking up and down my neighborhood today and thinking well, it seems normal.  Very normal.  So how do you know what is really going on behind closed doors and solid walls?  Why would you even assume that something this horrific is happening?  It wouldn't even have crossed my mind.  

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Well, in the 80's, we didn't have bed checks, but we had single sex dorms and men were only allowed in women's rooms for two hours each on Saturday and Sunday - the door and to remain open. We did have tv rooms in some dorms where men could visit during the week. Women were not allowed in the men's dorms at all.

Mmm I was in a university hostel in 91, as long as you were extremely discreet about alcohol and didn't scare the horses you could have had any sex in your rooms. Electrical appliances weren't supposed to be in your rooms though because the electrical circuits would blow for the whole building.

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Yeah, I can't imagine what it must be like working for CPS. I don't think emotionally I could handle it day in and day out for years and years.

 

 

As for the second part, regardless of whether abuse could be involved I think kids need training in personal financial management and cooking and parenting and other critical life skills. Many parents do not teach these things and the schools have moved further and further away from including life skills in their instruction. I feel that these skills are critical, are needed daily and yet they are not valued by a large chunk of society. Not every child picks these things up just at random. In fact, I would hazard to guess that most don't.

Here at least there is a very high burn out rate. The ones that last are those who can rigidly compartmentalise their lives or sacrifice themselves to their work.

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Agreed.  I was looking up and down my neighborhood today and thinking well, it seems normal.  Very normal.  So how do you know what is really going on behind closed doors and solid walls?  Why would you even assume that something this horrific is happening?  It wouldn't even have crossed my mind.  

 

It wouldn't, because most people are decent parents, and feed and love their kids, and occasionally make small and (in the long run) inconsequential mistakes that they worry about too much, and do the best they can. And we are all horrified for that reason.

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Agreed.  I was looking up and down my neighborhood today and thinking well, it seems normal.  Very normal.  So how do you know what is really going on behind closed doors and solid walls?  Why would you even assume that something this horrific is happening?  It wouldn't even have crossed my mind.

 

  

It wouldn't, because most people are decent parents, and feed and love their kids, and occasionally make small and (in the long run) inconsequential mistakes that they worry about too much, and do the best they can. And we are all horrified for that reason.

This is why I think I can convince myself to make concessions for the greater good. Even once we do consider that something horrific may be going on, If it is, the suffering has already been too great.

 

I've posted in the past about concern for relatives, and some people were outraged that I was trying to get a better idea of how the kids were doing while they were in my presence. Now I've lost contact and worry about them even more. I'm told to chalk it up to parenting differences and ignore the statistically significant risks, because the professionals "we" don't trust should be trusted to handle it professionally if it's really necessary.

 

Honestly, the more time that goes by, the more I feel like an awful human being who has failed those kids.

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Wow, the news is showing the transcript of the oldest boy who was attending classes at community college. Apparently he was getting almost straight A's. I guess they were teaching the kids something in between beating them, starving them, and chaining them? These parents are so bizarre.

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When I saw the sad news about the shooting in Texas today, I admit to feeling relieved that the boy who had a history of violence wasn't "homeschooled." (News report I saw said he'd been removed from school for previous threats & previous violent episodes but always returned.) If he'd been kicked out and turned into a "homeschooler" (not someone who was educated at home, just a kid kicked out of school and called a homeschooler), it would be even more fodder for these types of stories.

 

It is all so sad.

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You don't have to regulate homeschooling to address this.  It would help if we would change the constitution to give children rights.

 

If children had a right to live free of abuse that superseded the rights of mentally ill parents (who, from a legal standpoint, currently own their children), that could make a HUGE difference in the lives of many abused children. 

 

This is a mischaracterization of the law. The fundamental rights that protect parents' rights are mutual rights--parents have a right to raise their biological children, and children have a right to their parents. It's a reciprocal right, not one-direction, not ownership. It's been moving away from a concept akin to ownership as long as the concept of marriage has been moving away from similarity to ownership, for similar reasons. 

 

The system is already set up to allow states to intervene when there is abuse, because parental rights come with a duty of care. The burden is on states to prove the abuse is present, and standards if anything should be higher to sever family bonds (I'd like to see the ICWA standards of proof for dependency and for termination of rights extended to everyone).

 

A right "to live free from abuse" is pretty vague and way too open to intrusive government interpretation. Who decides exactly what is "abuse" and what is "neglect?". Do we really want to change our constitution to institute a right that could be interpreted to shift the burden to parents to prove that they are providing a home "free from abuse?" What about the reality that across the board, statistically, children in foster homes and other out-of-home placements are MORE likely to experience further abuse than those whose families are helped while kept intact? Checks on state overreach are important. For every horror story like this one there are probably twenty of a child entrusted to the care of the state for whatever reason who met abuse at the hands of paid caregivers of one kind or another. That does not mean that MOST such caregivers are bad any more than it means most parents are bad. It does mean that institutions, including those that simulate family, are at best an adequate substitute, and at worst wholly inferior, to actual families, as a way to raise children.

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This should probably be a new thread altogether, but I saw in the news a teen was arrested for raping 4 classmates. He was expelled from the high where this occurred and placed on house arrest until trial. Well fall enrollment came around and the school district placed him at another high school and didn't warn anyone. I get privacy and due process, but this16yo has been charged with enough crimes to warrant a life term and they just shuffled him off to a regular high school, not alternative or the online school the district has. I guess I should be thankful that when he was arrested he wasn't already expelled and called a homeschooler. But I'm mad that they put all of those girls at the new school in class with what sounds like a sociopathic serial rapist without any warning whatsoever.

Wow. Did the school follow its procedures in permitting this teen to return to school?
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Oh, I agree that it never works to ignore it. 

 

I am very aware of how strong the cult of the expert is and how much more damaging it can be than leaving well enough alone.

 

One of the pitfalls, I think, is deciding how abusive is too abusive and how abusive is okay abusive. Most forms of abuse are legal and need to stay legal.

 

100X this. I have a family member who has treated one of her children in ways that pretty much everyone in the family thinks is wrong and psychologically abusive, but no one tried to step in and get the state involved or take her kid away--because the one thing in his life that was worse (and that really sparked my family member's later behavior) was how they were treated by the state when he was taken into CPS custody (for reasons stemming from family member's spouses behavior). 

 

One of the proposals I saw in one of the news articles was to not allow homeschooling if either parent has been convicted of something that would prevent working in a school. That is a wide and slippery slope right there. In some states ANY felony will do it, even those that have absolutely nothing even remotely to do with parenting.

 

Nor would that have helped in the present case, where I have not heard that the parents have any criminal background.

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Sorry if this has already been discussed, but the mom had to have been in a hospital two years ago when she had her last.

 

Which hospital was it and didn't they see/notice anything?

 

Alley

 

Really? Have you never heard of home birth? There are those who insist upon eschewing attending midwives as well.

 

And, if she did go to a hospital, that doesn't mean the kids went with. There is no indication that the youngest had yet been subjected to what the older kids were. Most notably, youngest was fed.

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Would that be in violation of the 4th amendment?

 

Maybe. The 4th amendment bars "unreasonable" search. If search is deemed reasonable as part of homeschool regulation...it would be entirely open to challenge and would have very real possibility of being barred under the 4th. 

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Anybody else think the sister is weirdly excited to have the spotlight? She strikes me as odd too. This whole thing is beyond disturbing.

Yes! I got the same vibe. Like she is working on capitalizing on the whole affair.

 

Seriously, though, she reports that she was abused as a child herself, so if that's true it has implications for her sister's behavior.

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Anybody else think the sister is weirdly excited to have the spotlight? She strikes me as odd too. This whole thing is beyond disturbing.

Yes I got that vibe too.

Every comment so far from anyone in the family has been weird and off key. The family pics were odd. I think probably the frame of reference that the mum has for what families look like was already pretty messed up.

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They say the baby was well fed.  I'm wondering if some of the older siblings were feeding the baby some of their own food.

 

This whole situation is tragic.

From everything I've read of this kind of abuse, it's not outside the pattern for either one child to be targeted while the others are treated normally, or else one child to be treated normally while the others are abused.

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Really? Have you never heard of home birth? There are those who insist upon eschewing attending midwives as well.

 

And, if she did go to a hospital, that doesn't mean the kids went with. There is no indication that the youngest had yet been subjected to what the older kids were. Most notably, youngest was fed.

The articles I read said the police stated they believed all the children were born in a hospital. That was discussed further up the thread. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s true they may not have brought any of the other children to the hospital to visit.
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Why has no one come forward about the dad? He worked and must have interacted with more people? Have I missed any interviews with co-workers or his family?

 

He worked in the defense industry.  My guess is that HR sent out a directive saying that anybody who speaks to the media would be in violation of company policy and may be dismissed.  

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It seems as though there is a consensus around 1 regulation in particular, keeping close tabs on kids who are pulled from public school after a CPS report has been made. That won't prevent them from just moving, of course, but this group seems to be the most vulnerable.

That is awfully broad. How about while under investigation? Otherwise, well, it means it would only take one unsubstantiated report, which could be years in the past to prevent homeschooling. And it undermines the system to say that a family got help for and resolved a problem, and is now in a more stable place, should not homeschool because there was past CPS involvement. That  would open families up to indefinite monitoring by a system that is usually overtaxed with those NOT ready to get on with life without their help.

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I actually had a child in my summer school program who was the target of taunts, seen and unseen, for his clothing and hygiene. We (a team of teachers) talked to the parent about it (made referrals etc., this was a non-profit summer enrichment program) and she immediately made changes to his washing routines that stopped the comments in their tracks w/o CPS. We gave mom and opportunity to fix it first but I could easily see an abusive parent taking the child and disappearing. Calling CPS wouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t have changed the outcome. WhatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s the right thing? Kids are not robots and they are going to comment on individuals with unpleasant aromas. ThereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s no excuse for a teacher or authority figure to participate but thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s also not much that can be done if a parent refuses to make any changes. Telling kids, donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t say anything (even if TommyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s smell makes you gag) isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t going to make Tommy feel better. Kids will still avoid him.

 

There are things schools can do. I remember reading a while back of a school that installed a laundry room for students or parents to wash school clothes in if they had no other way to get it done. Many schools use strategies like you suggest--offer help first. When help is what's needed, that will do the trick.

 

Not every stinky kid is stinky because their home is that bad. Sometimes puberty brings bad smells. A depressed or anxious child may struggle with personal hygiene--and if they have a mentally ill (think severe depression/anxiety) parent who also has those same struggles, that's not because the parent doesn't care. Home may be bad because of a hoarding issue (also mental illness). A parent can be a clinical hoarder and still keep the kids presentable for outside the home or want to do better for their kid--doesn't mean they're able to. Shame can pile on to make parents reluctant to seek help--tactfully offering it can give them an out to accept the help they need.

 

In the case that sparked this thread, there does seem to be some sort of hoarding behavior going on--it's like they were hoarding the kids. There's also an awful mean streak to it all, which goes beyond treatable mental health struggles into some kind of personality disorder territory (narcissism etc.).

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This is a mischaracterization of the law. The fundamental rights that protect parents' rights are mutual rights--parents have a right to raise their biological children, and children have a right to their parents. It's a reciprocal right, not one-direction, not ownership. It's been moving away from a concept akin to ownership as long as the concept of marriage has been moving away from similarity to ownership, for similar reasons. 

 

The system is already set up to allow states to intervene when there is abuse, because parental rights come with a duty of care. The burden is on states to prove the abuse is present, and standards if anything should be higher to sever family bonds (I'd like to see the ICWA standards of proof for dependency and for termination of rights extended to everyone).

 

A right "to live free from abuse" is pretty vague and way too open to intrusive government interpretation. Who decides exactly what is "abuse" and what is "neglect?". Do we really want to change our constitution to institute a right that could be interpreted to shift the burden to parents to prove that they are providing a home "free from abuse?" What about the reality that across the board, statistically, children in foster homes and other out-of-home placements are MORE likely to experience further abuse than those whose families are helped while kept intact? Checks on state overreach are important. For every horror story like this one there are probably twenty of a child entrusted to the care of the state for whatever reason who met abuse at the hands of paid caregivers of one kind or another. That does not mean that MOST such caregivers are bad any more than it means most parents are bad. It does mean that institutions, including those that simulate family, are at best an adequate substitute, and at worst wholly inferior, to actual families, as a way to raise children.

 

Yes, exactly so.  The general idea here too, let's not forget, this family was illegal.  The laws set up, as they are, protect children from abuse and penalize abusive parents.  We cannot prosecute crimes we do not know about and we're not about to send the thought police into everyone's home, public, private, and homeschooled, to find the rare freaks in society that would CHAIN UP their children.  

 

I think it is a nice idea to believe that we actually CAN prevent humans from abusing other humans.  We cannot.  I love the idea of it, wish it were so, but we cannot.

 

 

Yes! I got the same vibe. Like she is working on capitalizing on the whole affair.

 

Seriously, though, she reports that she was abused as a child herself, so if that's true it has implications for her sister's behavior.

Sister is weird.

 

OTOH, it may have implications but no excuses.  Statistically practically every woman in the country can type #metoo.  And I don't just mean thwarting the off-hand comment of a crude co-worker.  (Then it would be all of us - sarcasm intended.)  Neither of them get a pass from me if they were abused.  Sorry.  In that case, knowing the trauma intimately, it makes you THAT MUCH MORE responsible to protect your children.  We don't do overnights at all (unless kids are much older AND a grandparent or I can think of TWO families we have trusted them with) because of my own personal experiences.  Those don't make me more likely to be an abuser as a woman.  They make me Mama Bear protective though.

Edited by BlsdMama
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Why has no one come forward about the dad? He worked and must have interacted with more people? Have I missed any interviews with co-workers or his family?

 

 

Because normal people want their name in no way associated with them at all???  Can you image? Interview:  "Yeah, I worked with him.  A little odd, but a nice enough fellow.  Never would have guessed he had 13 kids chained in a bedroom."  Where does that go from there and WHY would you want your name thrown in this circus?  Nope. Nope.  I guess that's why I can't believe the sister(s) are so eager to slurp up the media publicity.  Distance and silence.  Maybe a public release of something to the effect of condeming the tragic and horrific choices of your estranged sister and her husband, and that you feel deeply sympathetic towards your nieces and nephews.  Nope, I wouldn't put my name out there in any association, kwim?

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Yes, exactly so.  The general idea here too, let's not forget, this family was illegal.  The laws set up, as they are, protect children from abuse and penalize abusive parents.  We cannot prosecute crimes we do not know about and we're not about to send the thought police into everyone's home, public, private, and homeschooled, to find the rare freaks in society that would CHAIN UP their children.  

 

I think it is a nice idea to believe that we actually CAN prevent humans from abusing other humans.  We cannot.  I love the idea of it, wish it were so, but we cannot.

 

 

Sister is weird.

 

OTOH, it may have implications but no excuses.  Statistically practically every woman in the country can type #metoo.  And I don't just mean thwarting the off-hand comment of a crude co-worker.  (Then it would be all of us - sarcasm intended.)  Neither of them get a pass from me if they were abused.  Sorry.  In that case, knowing the trauma intimately, it makes you THAT MUCH MORE responsible to protect your children.  We don't do overnights at all (unless kids are much older AND a grandparent or I can think of TWO families we have trusted them with) because of my own personal experiences.  Those don't make me more likely to be an abuser as a woman.  They make me Mama Bear protective though.

I am a Mama Bear because of my background as well.  I get asked all the time, how I turned out normal (or a good mother), and I always felt that I am the mother that I am because of how much I want more for my children, and that I love them with every part of my being.  I cannot fathom treating my children with anything, but explosive love.

 

Brenda

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Of course there is no excuse - but statistically speaking, I'm pretty sure an abusive upbringing does often result in abusive practices as an adult. If one has not developed a concept of what is societally normal - or in fact, has an extremely skewed set of personal norms as a result of upbringing - I can see how that would contribute.

 

Yes, these people with the kids (I can't call them parentsĂ°Å¸ËœÂ¡), should face consequences. I just think it's important for us to examine the root causes in an effort to prevent such atrocities in the future.

 

The growing tragedy in all this is that the chain of abuse was likely long term, generational. It so hurts my heart to see this level of brokenness.

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Why has no one come forward about the dad? He worked and must have interacted with more people? Have I missed any interviews with co-workers or his family?

 

The paternal grandfather was interviewed (I think it was in the LA Times article linked a few pages back). He is in complete denial, doesn't believe any of it and wants to talk to the kids to find out what's really going on.

 

Methinks the apple didn't fall far from THAT tree.

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The paternal grandfather was interviewed (I think it was in the LA Times article linked a few pages back). He is in complete denial, doesn't believe any of it and wants to talk to the kids to find out what's really going on.

 

Methinks the apple didn't fall far from THAT tree.

Yeah.

 

I read about that.

 

He probably thinks the kids are lying and if there really was any abuse it was exclusively the mother's responsibility.

 

I've actually wondered if mom and dad's legal strategy is going to be to try to throw each other under the bus. Dad saying it was mom home with the kids and all the abuse was her fault, mom saying he didn't give her enough money for food and she did the best she could or some such.

 

I don't really understand pleading not guilty given the overwhelming evidence, but maybe they are hoping for a plea deal.

 

Or they are just in complete denial.

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Yeah.

 

I read about that.

 

He probably thinks the kids are lying and if there really was any abuse it was exclusively the mother's responsibility.

 

I've actually wondered if mom and dad's legal strategy is going to be to try to throw each other under the bus. Dad saying it was mom home with the kids and all the abuse was her fault, mom saying he didn't give her enough money for food and she did the best she could or some such.

 

I don't really understand pleading not guilty given the overwhelming evidence, but maybe they are hoping for a plea deal.

 

Or they are just in complete denial.

 

Pleading not guilty is the right of every criminal defendant. It doesn't mean a defendant is saying "but you're honor, I'm innocent!" it means "I am not going to incriminate myself. They must prove it." The right to be presumed innocent and to a trial are thus exercised. 

 

Pleading not guilty at the preliminary stages of criminal proceedings does not mean they won't take a deal later. If they are so out of it they really don't grasp that they have done wrong, or why they are before the court, a not guilty plea MUST be entered on their behalf and psych exams can be ordered.  

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I was raised by a mentally ill mother. I can totally see how things get missed. I also don't think it's possible to save everyone.

 

No doubt that the entire family on both sides is impacted by mental illness to varying degrees. There was probably no one family member in a position to monitor and prevent the situation.

 

As far as external regulations...I don't know. Who gets to decide what is abusive and what is quirky? I could see us trading a tragedy like this one for some new tragedies.

 

I hope that there will be enough funding and access to quality mental health care/community support to give these young people a chance at life. Given the genetics, the severity of the abuse, and the state of mental health care in our country, I'm not optimistic. It seems that the trauma survivors who do the best have solid family support (like Elizabeth Smart.)

 

 

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I think thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the reasons why these horrible, crazy people are able to fly under the radar. Normal people canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t even imagine that stuff like this could possibly be happening, especially in their own seemingly normal, average neighborhoods.

 

Exactly. If we see someone going through garbage we wonder what they lost, not "are they hungry?"

Some times (due to my work) I tend to be more suspicious and if I voiced all of those thoughts, I'd likely come off as paranoid.

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...

 

I've actually wondered if mom and dad's legal strategy is going to be to try to throw each other under the bus. Dad saying it was mom home with the kids and all the abuse was her fault, mom saying he didn't give her enough money for food and she did the best she could or some such.

 

I don't really understand pleading not guilty given the overwhelming evidence, but maybe they are hoping for a plea deal.

 

Or they are just in complete denial.

 

It's California. They might be working toward a "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" verdict. 

 

 

Some states have Ă¢â‚¬Å“Guilty But InsaneĂ¢â‚¬ or something similar when the person who commits the crime is crazy, but California offers Ă¢â‚¬Å“Not GuiltyĂ¢â‚¬ verdicts to crazy criminals. Yes, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s insane. 

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Homemommy, thank you for sharing your story.

 

I told a high school teacher what was happening at home ONCE, the only time I ever told a teacher. She did not tell my parents, she hugged me and told me she cared, and she gave me a passing grade even though I was unable to complete the projects because of home. But nobody intervened, and it was definitely a situation where somebody should have.

 

But there are two more benefits to school for abuse and neglected children:

 

1. Respite, a meal, awareness of and access to basic education.

2. Probably figuring out that what you endure at home is not normal.

 

In my own experience, I cannot ever minimize those two benefits. They are the reason my children have had a normal life.

 

This.

Without sharing too much. Despite the fact that I hated school because of bullying, teasing, not fitting in, etc. Despite the fact that educationally, I would have done better being homeschooled. Attending public school was an improvement in my life and as an adult I can look back and be grateful that I had that respite from home. 

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It's California. They might be working toward a "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" verdict. 

 

 

Some states have Ă¢â‚¬Å“Guilty But InsaneĂ¢â‚¬ or something similar when the person who commits the crime is crazy, but California offers Ă¢â‚¬Å“Not GuiltyĂ¢â‚¬ verdicts to crazy criminals. Yes, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s insane.

 

 

Who cares about the semantics? They still end up locked up, just in a psychiatric facility, and indefinitely rather than for a set term. And insanity pleas almost never work anyway.

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