Aziz Anseri situation

[MistyMountain]

There is a story shared on the Babe about a date that ended in a way the female did not feel like her verbal and non verbal cues were listened to on a date with Aziz Anseri. It is being shared on multiple sites with most people thinking that he did nothing wrong and it certainly was not rape. To me it was not a clear assault but I do not think he was completely innocent either. He never asked for consent beforehand and some of her non verbal cues like backing away and pulling her hands away were not listened to. The story is easily found but I will not link it incase it is more detailed then some would want to read. I was curious to see what others thought because it seems most feel that she should not have shared in the first place and she is doing it strictly for revenge. 

[catz]

I do think she was very unclear.  I hope more women feel empowered to stand up in the moment and say "that's not ok,  I'm leaving."  It's not clear to me she ever said NO! STOP NOW AND BACK OFF.    I hope more men stand up and demand clear verbal consent before moving on someone. 

 

I think it's fine she shared it, but I think they both made mistakes.    She seemed star struck and willing to follow him home and then seemed powerless to say anything or to just stand up, get dressed, and leave. 

 

Was he an entitled a$$?  Sure, absolutely.   I'm the last person who would defend his behavior. 

[nansk]

It sounds like a bad date and she is free to rant about it as such. It doesn't sound like assault and she should not have characterized it as such. It seems like she is trying to piggyback on the #MeToo movement and that is wrong.

[ccolopy]

I just had a discussion with DS17 about this topic after he brought the article to my attention. It was a really great conversation - I'd encourage you all to bring it up with your older teens! We're both big fans of Aziz as a comedian (and DS enjoyed his book, which I haven't read) but we both felt like he really blew it in this situation. 

 

When reading Grace's account, without really paying attention to who either person is outside of this encounter, they both made mistakes. He was overly aggressive from the beginning. She was unclear with him about what she wanted much of the time. He resumed his advances shortly after she made it very clear that she wanted him to stop. They both also did some things right - she called him out on his behaviour once she had collected herself, and he made what seemed like several sincere apologies. 

 

It's when you consider that she was 22 years old at the time and he is a world-famous 34-year-old multimillionaire that the whole situation seems very imbalanced and, well, gross. If she had been on a date with someone her own age without Aziz's fame and power, I suspect she would have responded very differently to that type of behavior, shutting him down more forcefully and likely ending the date early. Aziz seemed totally unaware of this power differential, which seems to be a big part of the problem right now. 

 

I don't think the article was written to get revenge or out of malice, but I also don't think that naming him did any good. 

[hjffkj]

It doesn't sound like assault to me.

[EmseB]

It read to me like he watched too much porn and expected girls coming up to his apartment to be like that, and she sort of expected that she should be attracted to him because he was a celebrity and have an experience like something out of a Cosmopolitan article. She went up to his apartment, got naked, engaged in sexual activity with him, she said she wanted to chill (what does that even mean?), she continued to hang out naked with him and do stuff with him, then she said she wanted to stop. She got dressed and he called her a car and she left feeling awkward and grossed out because he had the acumen of a 19-year-old college kid who watched too many dirty movies.

 

Really, I think TV and social media and other outlets have given people a really unrealistic, glamorous view of one-night stands and casual sex. It doesn't sound like revenge to me, but it does sound like she's really, really confused.

 

But it is not assault.

[LMD]

Meghan Murphy wrote a good piece on this:

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-accusations-may-not-rape-rape-culture/

[Mimm]

I think guys think it's simply ok to pressure and convince a woman to have sex with them. So these non-verbal cues are totally ignorable and even verbal cues and simply part of the process. If a woman said things that indicated her reluctance, but she didn't actively resist, the man can walk away feeling like he didn't actually force her, he convinced her. I read somewhere someone said, "When a man says no, it's the end of the discussion. When a woman says no, it's the beginning of the negotiation."

[Tanaqui]

Hm. I’m not sure how I feel about that. It sounds like she made her thoughts known several times but sent mixed signals, and he kind of backed off but then tried a different angle.

 

If somebody is sending "mixed signals", then some of those signals are saying "no". What sort of person ignores a "no"?

 

[EmseB]

Meghan Murphy wrote a good piece on this:

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-accusations-may-not-rape-rape-culture/

 

"the comedian rushed through dinner before bringing her back to his apartment"

 

I almost spit out my drink right there.  He brought her back to his apartment?  What is the 1950s? He didn't bring her anywhere. She went up to his apartment and got undressed and made out with the guy (among other things). And we're all surprised that he didn't understand her "non verbal cues." He asked and she reciprocated.  According to her own account, when she made it clear (like actually clear) she wanted to stop the shenanigans, he called her a car.  He wasn't mad. He didn't force her to do anything.

 

How about, "You go ahead, I'm going to finish my wine and hang out here for a bit"?  Or, "Thanks for the lovely dinner"?  Does she have no personal agency? She even mentioned that she wanted a different kind of wine with dinner...okay, so order a different kind?

 

It turns out that intimate encounters with people you barely know can sometimes be awkward and gross. That doesn't make them "grey rape" or assault. It means you had a bad time that involved intimacy with a relative stranger, which is kind of not surprising, really.

Edited January 16, 2018 by EmseB

[MistyMountain]

There were definitely parts that were unclear in the narrative and I do no think it crosses the line into rape but it certainly was skirting lines, not respectful and he was pressuring her. He never asked consent before engaging in sexual activities and he put his hand back or followed after her when she was pulling her hand away and backing off. She did never give a clear no or stop that though. It does not sound like she was willing but regretted it but that she was trying to give singnals but not strong enough. She certainly made mistakes herself.

[catz]

We should absolutely not normalize this behavoir in guys. I do like the article above.

 

But I also think we should teach our girls it isn’t their job to politely accept whatever comes their way quietly or to try to please those around them and that their feelings are important. They can have a voice and be very clear in their consent or lack of it.

[Farrar]

I had a lot of thoughts about this. He was a jerk and his behavior wasn't okay. I don't think he did anything illegal, but the way he repeatedly pressured her was wrong and it started to skirt a line of not just unethical but illegal for sure. It makes me think less of him for sure. It particularly made me revisit in an unhappy way the way the Francesca plotline resolved itself on Master of None. I repeatedly felt like that plot came close to being the whole "guys just need to repeatedly show a girl they want her and then they'll get her" trope that amounts to stalking that masquerades as romance in so many books, movies, and TV shows. There were ways that he wrote it that made it more okay... but it felt like it was trying to make that trope okay too. I was on the fence about it because I loved many other aspects of the show (Thanksgiving, y'all, one of the best half hours of TV last year hands down). This pushed me over against it. Hard to separate life and art sometimes.

 

But also, I am baffled at why she did not leave earlier. I know that women often feel pressured to do what men ask because there's a fear that you refuse and the man turns on you. I know that often there are limiting factors where a woman is more trapped than they seem. But in this case, even from her own account, I never felt like she couldn't walk away. She was in a good neighborhood. She had her own money. She was in her own city. And it was a city where it would be very easy to arrange your own transportation quickly. And, while he did press himself against her at times, he also gave her an out more than once. And, again, reading her account, I never felt like she couldn't have said a forceful no and walked off. I wasn't there obviously, but it didn't have that vibe at all.

 

None of that makes it her fault for sure. But... it made me feel like young women need to know that they're empowered to say no. Not just, "Let's slow down," but "STOP!" I know that sometimes people say yes under pressure as a defense mechanism. Did she need to do that in this case? I want to be sympathetic to the fact that sometimes that's the case. But I also just didn't see it in this case. I think she could have made a different choice earlier that would have worked better for her but she kept being scared to make it. Or she kept wanting something more from him and thinking it could turn around when it wasn't turning around. Basically, I feel like young women who are still dating should read this and think about their strategies in that situation. How can you be more forceful? Not that you should have to be. But surely that's better than ending the night the way "Grace" did.

[goldberry]

I don't consider this sexual assault.  Pressuring, bad judgment, inappropriate, yes all that.  Not assault.  She could have left at any time, there is no indication she felt she did not have the option of leaving.   

 

She said:  â€œI was not listened to and ignored. It was by far the worst experience with a man I’ve ever had.â€

 

If a man doesn't listen to you and ignores you, you leave. 

 

I don't see her point in going public with it. 

 

[marbel]

She sounds very immature.  Much like I probably was at that age.  If it had happened with a "regular" guy, not a celebrity, she would have gone home (possibly much earlier than she actually did, maybe after he didn't offer her preferred wine*), complained to her girlfriends, and moved on with life.  (Says a voice of experience with bad dates, and who learned to say no forcefully and unequivocally early on.)  

 

Not that I think he comes out well in this either.  But I haven't really been a fan and he has always come across as arrogant to me.

 

*from the Babe article: "After arriving at his apartment in Manhattan on Monday evening, they exchanged small talk and drank wine. “It was white,†she said. “I didn’t get to choose and I prefer red, but it was white wine.† I don't know why that's included in the story.  

Edited January 16, 2018 by marbel

[Farrar]

 

I don't see her point in going public with it. 

 

I'm not sure, but I think she has two points.

 

One, this guy who pretends to be so in women's corner, is not necessarily. If I had that experience, I would also be bothered by that hypocrisy and want it pointed out, aside from any legal issues.

 

Two, I think whether it's her purpose or not, that it's positive that it's creating this sort of conversation. If young men can read her account and see where his behavior went wrong, and women can read it and see where she could have said no earlier and more forcefully, then I think that's a potentially positive thing. Men and women are just looking at very different realities in dating sometimes. I think seeing how that happens can be useful.

[Tsuga]

Assault is assault, battery is battery, and rape is rape. I wasn't on any of these dates. I don't think a woman should have to yell "NO! STOP!". A simple, "Please stop now. I'm leaving." in a polite voice should suffice. Not screaming doesn't mean "not rape". But "non verbal cues like backing away and pulling her hands" also do not mean "no".

 

I would encourage my own kids to not go home with a man they are on a date with, and drink, if they don't intend to have sex. No, that's not consent, but many rapes occur in that situation and you don't want that to happen. It is also where a lot of "why didn't I say no, why didn't I leave" happens. Two different things, one is a crime and one is not, but you don't want to be in either situation. Drunk men are not going to be able to read any signals.

 

And fellas... protip here. When you go back to your apartment and open a bottle of wine, you know what would be a good idea? Saying right away, "The bedrooms over there, and there are cameras out here for security purposes." If I were a single man I'd definitely have that set up. My partner asked me clearly, "Do you want to have sex?" before we went into the bedroom.

 

Sexiest words ever. Consent is sexy, caring is sexy.

 

Until we get there, situations like this will always have people blaming each other.

[justasque]

...

 

Really, I think TV and social media and other outlets have given people a really unrealistic, glamorous view of one-night stands and casual sex....

 

 

...

 

It turns out that intimate encounters with people you barely know can sometimes be awkward and gross. That doesn't make them "grey rape" or assault. It means you had a bad time that involved intimacy with a relative stranger, which is kind of not surprising, really.

 

This.

Whether you are male or female, it's not a bad idea to get to know someone a bit before putting yourself in this kind of vulnerable position.  It's not the whole solution, of course, but it's something to consider.

[katilac]

I find her account puzzling even if completely true. 

 

She shows a very high level of passivity in her language. She wanted red wine instead of white but didn't say so. She didn't want to leave the restaurant but didn't say so. He "brought" her to his apartment (they walked, together). He asks her to sit on the countertop and she does. She tells him to "chill" when he talks about getting a condom, but right after he goes down on her and she goes down on him. He repeatedly asks "where do you want me to f* you?" and she finds this difficult to answer. Later, he points to his junk and she goes down on him again. She characterizes her resistance as mostly "pulling away and mumbling."  

 

She never says that she felt unsafe saying no. I understand that things can be weird and you can feel pressured, but I also feel that she was being extremely unclear. She talks as though things just happened so quickly she hardly knew what was going on, but the many things she described take a certain amount of time (I only listed a very few above, see article for her full list). 

 

Her lack of clear signals continues in her return text to him the next day: before saying that the night was not fun for her, she says that it was nice to meet him also, and that she hopes he got some good shots on his roll of film. That's a strange, friendly greeting imo (it was NICE TO MEET HIM??).

 

Then her text states that she was sending "non-verbal cues" and he should have noticed that she was "uncomfortable." Nowhere in the text does she speak of pushing him away as she does in the article, which I find telling.  

 

And the text ends on another friendly note, with her wishing him luck with his movie and thanking him for dinner. 

 

He responds that he's sorry to hear this, and that he would never intend to make her or anyone else feel that way, and that "Clearly I misread things in the moment and I'm truly sorry" 

 

That is the entirety of his response, 3 sentences. He doesn't cast shade about her participating, doesn't tell her she's wrong, and doesn't try to continue the conversation. After she went public, he issued a denial the next day, which can be read here: 

https://babe.net/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-statement-28407

 

I'm not ready to throw him under the bus for this. For the record, I only have the vaguest notion of who he is, I am not a fan. I am strictly going by her account, the resulting texts between them, and his denial. 

 

I have daughters. While I am trying to teach them to speak up about what they do and do not want, I of course also worry that they won't be heard. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to automatically believe every accusation that a man or woman pressured someone into sexual activity. 

 

If I had sons, I would definitely teach them to ask for enthusiastic verbal consent every step of the way. 

[katilac]

 

Two, I think whether it's her purpose or not, that it's positive that it's creating this sort of conversation.  

 

That's not enough, if it isn't true. I'm sorry, sir, we're going to be effing up your life, but we're getting some good conversations out of it. 

[Corraleno]

Two, I think whether it's her purpose or not, that it's positive that it's creating this sort of conversation. If young men can read her account and see where his behavior went wrong, and women can read it and see where she could have said no earlier and more forcefully, then I think that's a potentially positive thing. Men and women are just looking at very different realities in dating sometimes. I think seeing how that happens can be useful.

Unfortunately, most of the "conversation" I'm seeing, in the comments on many different sites, is both men and women saying that what "Grace" described is not assault, that she changed her mind and is now playing the victim, that she's out for revenge, etc. Very very few comments, even from women, seem to be calling him out for being a jerk. The vast majority of comments I've seen are about her failure to clearly communicate her desires and her failure to leave when she was uncomfortable. I think it's done more to dilute and trivialize #metoo, and to reinforce the myth that a lot of so-called assaults are really just "next day regrets," which is really unfortunate.

 

"Grace" admitted that she was sort of star-struck and excited by the idea of dating a celebrity, and she seems to have had expectations of a romantic relationship, whereas he was more interested in a casual hook-up. I think the reason she didn't want to explicitly say no and just leave as soon as things got uncomfortable is because she didn't want to give up the possibility of a relationship with a "star." So in a way they were using each other, but for different reasons and with very different expectations. I think Ansari acted like a jerk, but I also think it was entirely on her to make her wishes clear and to leave when it got uncomfortable.

 

I honestly doubt many men are going to read her account and say "wow, I've been acting like a jerk, I need to be more polite and ask permission." But maybe women who read it will feel more empowered to just explicitly say "hey, I'm not into this and I'd like to leave now." And that, at least, would be a good thing.

[Farrar]

That's not enough, if it isn't true. I'm sorry, sir, we're going to be effing up your life, but we're getting some good conversations out of it. 

 

What do you mean if it isn't true? She lays out an account. He has definitely not disputed it in his statement. I assume everything she said is true to her experience of the events that unfolded.

 

I also strongly believe he did not behave in an appropriate manner. And while I think she could have made some different decisions that might have helped her avert the end outcome where she had sex she didn't want to have, in the end, his behavior wasn't okay and that's on him, not her. It wasn't illegal behavior in my opinion. But it was unethical to pressure her repeatedly as she said no in various ways. And I think that's totally legit for her to come forward and discuss that if she wants to, which she obviously did.

[Farrar]

Unfortunately, most of the "conversation" I'm seeing, in the comments on many different sites, is both men and women saying that what "Grace" described is not assault, that she changed her mind and is now playing the victim, that she's out for revenge, etc. Very very few comments, even from women, seem to be calling him out for being a jerk. The vast majority of comments I've seen are about her failure to clearly communicate her desires and her failure to leave when she was uncomfortable. I think it's done more to dilute and trivialize #metoo, and to reinforce the myth that a lot of so-called assaults are really just "next day regrets," which is really unfortunate.

 

"Grace" admitted that she was sort of star-struck and excited by the idea of dating a celebrity, and she seems to have had expectations of a romantic relationship, whereas he was more interested in a casual hook-up. I think the reason she didn't want to explicitly say no and just leave as soon as things got uncomfortable is because she didn't want to give up the possibility of a relationship with a "star." So in a way they were using each other, but for different reasons and with very different expectations. I think Ansari acted like a jerk, but I also think it was entirely on her to make her wishes clear and to leave when it got uncomfortable.

 

I honestly doubt many men are going to read her account and say "wow, I've been acting like a jerk, I need to be more polite and ask permission." But maybe women who read it will feel more empowered to just explicitly say "hey, I'm not into this and I'd like to leave now." And that, at least, would be a good thing.

 

That wasn't my experience in my social media circles... but I can imagine this is the case elsewhere. Still, I think it's a great example of how two people can experience the same events radically differently though, especially when there are such different expectations on them. I don't think it's on "Grace" to help or hinder metoo or timesup or whatever. I think women are just welcome to share their stories - she shared this one of feeling violated. It's pretty illustrative of a lot of the issues at play, maybe for both men and women.

[Corraleno]

I have daughters. While I am trying to teach them to speak up about what they do and do not want, I of course also worry that they won't be heard. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to automatically believe every accusation that a man or woman pressured someone into sexual activity.

I think the idea of blaming a man for "pressuring" a woman into sex, as if the woman was helpless to resist despite the fact that the guy actually had no power or leverage over her and she was free to say no and leave at any time, is problematic.

 

If it's someone (of either sex) who has power over you — your boss or supervisor, someone who is in a position to ruin your career or otherwise harm you — then yeah, that's at least harassment and possibly assault. If someone is physically restraining you or preventing you from leaving, it's clearly assault. But if you are on a date with someone who has no power over you and in no way prevents you from leaving, and you engage in consensual sex but then feel upset that your date was more interested in sex than a relationship, then your passivity and refusal to clearly state your wishes during that date is really not the guy's fault.

[Tsuga]

That's not enough, if it isn't true. I'm sorry, sir, we're going to be effing up your life, but we're getting some good conversations out of it. 

 

Well... which is worse, having your life effed up because you were raped, or because you were accused of rape? I don't really buy the whole "oh no false accusations are the worst!"

 

On the other hand, people had better watch out as well--because if we are including regret sex in #metoo, people are going to stop listening. I am willing to bet there is a lot of regrettable and regretful and regretted sex between young women and young men and famous stars.

 

There is a reason underage sex is statutory rape. There is a reason that having sex with an unconscious person or very drunk person is rape. It is because those people are too young, too coerced, or too incapacitated to say NO.

 

I understand how hard it is to say "no" in the moment but if you neither say no nor attempt to leave, then if you give someone oral sex I don't understand how that is rape.

 

I think what is coming out of this conversation is whether any famous and powerful man can have sex that is truly consensual. Is it always an implied power play? Clearly, she was not as enthused as Ansari, but (can we get specific here) how do you give head involuntarily unless there is a very serious and immediate threat? It's easy for a woman to just lay there drunk and get raped but giving a man oral is hard, pun not intended.

 

this guy who pretends to be so in women's corner, is not necessarily

 

 

Well yeah... he's an entertainer. Men and women in show business are usually pretty self-absorbed and not that socially conscious. Everything that comes out of their mouths is for views. I believe he does view himself as a liberal and as someone who believes in women's rights, but that is about his beliefs in what the world ought to be... not his character.

 

Showbiz is full of hypocrites.

[Tsuga]

I think the idea of blaming a man for "pressuring" a woman into sex, as if the woman was helpless to resist despite the fact that the guy actually had no power or leverage over her and she was free to say no and leave at any time, is problematic.

 

"Pressure" is probably a bad word to use in discussions like this. It's very vague. Coercion is what makes it rape: the belief on the part of the victim that they will face severe consequences for not saying yes is the problem.

 

That said, pressuring people is a crappy thing to do. The more important the subject of pressure is, the worse the pressure. Don't pressure people into drinking, don't pressure them to carpool, don't pressure them to agree with your decision to adopt a cat, don't pressure them for a kiss or sex. Pressuring is blameworthy. It's not rape though. 

[Roadrunner]

I don’t understand it. If I pull my undies off voluntarily and let a man ... I am sorry, but I just can’t see it her way at all. And I think this diminishes the assault so many wonen have been reporting.

[katilac]

What do you mean if it isn't true? She lays out an account. He has definitely not disputed it in his statement. I assume everything she said is true to her experience of the events that unfolded.

 

I also strongly believe he did not behave in an appropriate manner. And while I think she could have made some different decisions that might have helped her avert the end outcome where she had sex she didn't want to have, in the end, his behavior wasn't okay and that's on him, not her. It wasn't illegal behavior in my opinion. But it was unethical to pressure her repeatedly as she said no in various ways. And I think that's totally legit for her to come forward and discuss that if she wants to, which she obviously did.

 

I mean just that, if it isn't true. 

 

I did think that he disputed her account by saying that he thought the sexual activity was completely consensual by all indications. I would need to hear/read a longer statement from him to judge whether I thought it was a reliable denial. 

 

I also strongly believe that the behavior she describes is not appropriate (it goes far beyond not appropriate), but that is different from believing for sure that he behaved that way. Apart from not just immediately taking someone's word on something so serious, I find both her account and her behavior to be strange and sometimes hard to believe. I mentioned a few things in my post, but one that stands out is that she only mentions "non-verbal cues" in her text to AA, as opposed to in the article (which came later). Shoving his fingers down her throat, among other things, doesn't rate a mention?

 

It's also strange that she finds it totally unexpected that he would non-verbally request a second blowjob. This is a surprise, after the long list of things she states he did before? 

 

I am not prepared to fully credit her account, but note that I am also not prepared to discredit her account. I think the available information is too limited and too unclear to make a good judgement. It will be interesting to see if he makes a longer statement. 

[katilac]

Well... which is worse, having your life effed up because you were raped, or because you were accused of rape?  

 

 

Which is worse, being murdered or being falsely accused of murder? They both suck. 

 

And it doesn't matter, because we don't ignore injustice just because it's not the worst possible injustice. An innocent child being murdered is one of the most tragic things I can think of, but I'm not going to tell someone to suck it up if they are falsely accused of the murder. Because, y'know, it's not as bad as actually being murdered. 

 

I'm not sure I quite get your point. Does being falsely accused have to be worse than rape in order to count on the cosmic scale of justice? Rape is awful. False accusations of rape are awful. I can oppose false accusations of rape without supporting rape. I can want justice for a murder victim while also wanting justice for a person falsely accused of murder. 

[mathnerd]

In Harvey Weinstein's case, we support the accusers because of the huge power imbalance between the accusers and Weinstein - which is the same case here - she a 22 year old and he is a famous 34 year old rich guy. This guy would not accept "No" as an answer and kept on pressurizing the young woman many times. She finally managed to leave. The story sounds like Ashley Judd's or even Gwyneth Paltrow's stories. The good thing (if there is even such a thing) about this story is that there was no physical violence involved. But, the situation is that a girl got herself into a rich and successful man's home and was worried that she might not be able to get out on her own terms. In this case the girl was not looking for an audition or a job from him and still felt so much pressure (call it coercion if you want and felt scared that her will might not prevail) while in Weinstein's case, all his accusers were looking for career opportunities.

Why is this bad for Aziz? Because it is his house and she probably felt trapped when she changed her mind and he refused to accept that many times.

Edited January 16, 2018 by mathnerd

[Tsuga]

Which is worse, being murdered or being falsely accused of murder? They both suck. 

 

And it doesn't matter, because we don't ignore injustice just because it's not the worst possible injustice. An innocent child being murdered is one of the most tragic things I can think of, but I'm not going to tell someone to suck it up if they are falsely accused of the murder. Because, y'know, it's not as bad as actually being murdered. 

 

I'm not sure I quite get your point. Does being falsely accused have to be worse than rape in order to count on the cosmic scale of justice? Rape is awful. False accusations of rape are awful. I can oppose false accusations of rape without supporting rape. I can want justice for a murder victim while also wanting justice for a person falsely accused of murder. 

 

I'm not suggesting injustice is ignored. Slander is actually a crime though and it can be addressed.

 

My point was probably unclear because it's in the context of a larger discussion that I didn't summarize here, but let me do that.

 

There is an argument out there that, when dissected (and I don't think this is a straw man), goes something along these lines:

 

***

 

Some women lie so we shouldn't take any woman seriously unless there is a conviction.

 

However, without a conviction, a man's reputation could still be ruined by an accusation.

 

Therefore, false accusations should be considered as harmful to men as rape is to women.

 

This type of social punishment for false accusations will provide a necessary deterrent for those actions.

 

*****

 

If you haven't heard people speaking along these lines, just spend a miserable day or two on reddit or 4chan and don't worry, you can enjoy quite a bit of woman-hatred. This argument is not rare. It's very common.

 

So, when I replied to your comment, it was in that context. The point I was trying to make was not "if it's not rape it doesn't count" but instead, "just because this is a problem, doesn't mean it should be compared to rape".

 

The crime of slander is a crime, it is prosecutable (sp? word?), and it should be prosecuted. But I don't think that we need to go over "oh poor men, all the false accusations" every time there is a slanderous or questionable account.

 

And in this case, the woman's account does not suggest rape. It suggests rude aloofness and inconsiderate behavior from a man in power (surprise surprise). There is a reason that woman-on-man oral sex is not a common rape scenario, and that is for the reasons I mentioned above. It requires a lot of psychological control. And he didn't deny it, either, also not surprising.

 

So I don't think there is any point complaining about false accusations in the discussion.

[Tsuga]

Which is worse, being murdered or being falsely accused of murder? They both suck. 

 

And it doesn't matter, because we don't ignore injustice just because it's not the worst possible injustice. An innocent child being murdered is one of the most tragic things I can think of, but I'm not going to tell someone to suck it up if they are falsely accused of the murder. Because, y'know, it's not as bad as actually being murdered. 

 

I'm not sure I quite get your point. Does being falsely accused have to be worse than rape in order to count on the cosmic scale of justice? Rape is awful. False accusations of rape are awful. I can oppose false accusations of rape without supporting rape. I can want justice for a murder victim while also wanting justice for a person falsely accused of murder. 

 

I'm not suggesting injustice is ignored. Slander is actually a crime though and it can be addressed.

 

My point was probably unclear because it's in the context of a larger discussion that I didn't summarize here, but let me do that.

 

There is an argument out there that, when dissected (and I don't think this is a straw man), goes something along these lines:

 

***

 

Some women lie so we shouldn't take any woman seriously unless there is a conviction.

 

However, without a conviction, a man's reputation could still be ruined by an accusation.

 

Therefore, false accusations should be considered as harmful to men as rape is to women.

 

This type of social punishment for false accusations will provide a necessary deterrent for those actions.

 

*****

 

If you haven't heard people speaking along these lines, just spend a miserable day or two on reddit or 4chan and don't worry, you can enjoy quite a bit of woman-hatred. This argument is not rare. It's very common.

 

So, when I replied to your comment, it was in that context. The point I was trying to make was not "if it's not rape it doesn't count" but instead, "just because this is a problem, doesn't mean it should be compared to rape".

 

The crime of slander is a crime, it is prosecutable (sp? word?), and it should be prosecuted. But I don't think that we need to go over "oh poor men, all the false accusations" every time there is a slanderous or questionable account.

 

And in this case, the woman's account does not suggest rape. It suggests rude aloofness and inconsiderate behavior from a man in power (surprise surprise). There is a reason that woman-on-man oral sex is not a common rape scenario, and that is for the reasons I mentioned above. It requires a lot of psychological control. And he didn't deny it, either, also not surprising.

 

So I don't think there is any point complaining about false accusations in the discussion.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Tsuga

[Corraleno]

What do you mean if it isn't true? She lays out an account. He has definitely not disputed it in his statement. I assume everything she said is true to her experience of the events that unfolded.

 

I also strongly believe he did not behave in an appropriate manner. And while I think she could have made some different decisions that might have helped her avert the end outcome where she had sex she didn't want to have, in the end, his behavior wasn't okay and that's on him, not her. It wasn't illegal behavior in my opinion. But it was unethical to pressure her repeatedly as she said no in various ways. And I think that's totally legit for her to come forward and discuss that if she wants to, which she obviously did.

Well, IMO what's "not true" is that she was sexually assaulted, and she explicitly claims that what happened to her was sexual assault. If you are performing oral sex (twice, actually) on a guy who is in no way forcing you or preventing you from leaving, while expecting the guy to mind-read "nonverbal cues" that you're not really having fun, because for some unexplained reason you're unwilling to just say "stop, I don't want to have sex with you," that is not assault.

 

She had a bad date with a guy she admired, who turned out to be a jerk, and she's hurt and disappointed that he was mostly just interested in sex. Yes, he's a jerk. But he's not a rapist just because she agreed to give him head, when she really didn't want to, instead of saying no. I don't think that validating this woman's attempt to reframe regret sex as assault helps women. Why reinforce the idea that women are passive and helpless and can't say no, even to a guy who holds zero power over them? When one of the biggest barriers to getting people to take sexual assault seriously is that many men (and some women) dismiss actual assault as regret sex, trying to reframe actual regret sex as assault is a step backwards.

 

The lesson that I would hope women would take from this person's experience is that if you don't want to have sex with someone, don't have sex with them. Say no. Say you want to leave, and then leave. Don't go ahead and have sex and then blame the guy later for the fact that you really didn't want to do what you did.

[LMD]

In Harvey Weinstein's case, we support the accusers because of the huge power imbalance between the accusers and Weinstein - which is the same case here - she a 22 year old and he is a famous 34 year old rich guy. This guy would not accept "No" as an answer and kept on pressurizing the young woman many times. She finally managed to leave. The story sounds like Ashley Judd's or even Gwyneth Paltrow's stories. The good thing (if there is even such a thing) about this story is that there was no physical violence involved. But, the situation is that a girl got herself into a rich and successful man's home and was worried that she might not be able to get out on her own terms. In this case the girl was not looking for an audition or a job from him and still felt so much pressure (call it coercion if you want and felt scared that her will might not prevail) while in Weinstein's case, all his accusers were looking for career opportunities.

Why is this bad for Aziz? Because it is his house and she probably felt trapped when she changed her mind and he refused to accept that many times.

I agree. And deciding to go along to avoid violence and hoping it's over quickly is not uncommon. Often that's the safest route, even for explicitly rape situations.

 

And speaking of rape situations, most of them aren't strangers jumping out of bushes or gun to the head. Many of them start out exactly like Grace's story. I don't think this case showed a crime, but it could well have.

 

This is why enthusiastic content needs to be the standard. Treating your partner with respect and consideration, rather than as a prop in a private porno.

[Corraleno]

In Harvey Weinstein's case, we support the accusers because of the huge power imbalance between the accusers and Weinstein - which is the same case here - she a 22 year old and he is a famous 34 year old rich guy. This guy would not accept "No" as an answer and kept on pressurizing the young woman many times. She finally managed to leave. The story sounds like Ashley Judd's or even Gwyneth Paltrow's stories. The good thing (if there is even such a thing) about this story is that there was no physical violence involved. But, the situation is that a girl got herself into a rich and successful man's home and was worried that she might not be able to get out on her own terms. In this case the girl was not looking for an audition or a job from him and still felt so much pressure (call it coercion if you want and felt scared that her will might not prevail) while in Weinstein's case, all his accusers were looking for career opportunities.

Why is this bad for Aziz? Because it is his house and she probably felt trapped when she changed her mind and he refused to accept that many times.

 

No, there is really not a "huge power imbalance" between two intelligent, rational, able-bodied adults just because one is older and happens to be famous. He's not her boss, he has no influence on her career. There's no indication that he promised her a job, or an introduction to other famous people, or anything else in return for sex. His celebrity is only a factor to the extent that she values it — there's no reason why a woman should respond differently to a famous jerk pressuring her for sex than an anonymous jerk pressuring her for sex, unless there is something about the connection with fame and celebrity that she wants from him. In which case, that's her choice and her values. He never said "I'm famous and if you don't have sex with me I'll ruin your career."

 

She also never claimed or even implied that she felt like she couldn't get away or she felt trapped. She told him a couple of times that she wanted to slow down and "chill" and admits that she was sending "mixed signals." Saying she wanted to slow down, and then agreeing to give the guy a blow job, is not exactly a clear "stop, I don't want to have sex." When she finally did clearly and explicitly say she wanted to stop and go home, he called her a cab and she left. When she told him she was upset the next day, he said he was sorry he misread the signals and sincerely apologized.

 

​I dunno, the idea that women are somehow powerless to say no if a guy pressures them for sex, really bugs me. If there is no force, no coercion, no actual power differential, if you could have ended the encounter at any point by saying "I don't want to have sex with you, I want to leave now," then if you choose to go ahead and have sex with a jerk, that's not really the jerk's fault, even if he is being a jerk.

[Sandwalker]

I think that Aziz was completely inappropriate (and gross) in his actions, but not a rapist. I also think that star-struck young women should not go to an entitled-feeling near-stranger's house at night.

 

I have heard a lot of people (other places) talking about teaching our daughters how to and not to behave in these situations. I have not heard too much about teaching our sons not to pressure vulnerable young women into sex acts. I have heard 'Make Sure You Get Verbal Consent', I've heard 'There's an app that you can use to record consent', but I haven't heard 'Treat women with respect. Back off when she seems uncomfortable. Don't be grabby. You can tell when she wants to slow down or stop, don't ignore it and see what you can get away with.'

 

It reminds me of all the things we tell women so we protect ourselves: Don't go to his house alone, don't walk alone in a bad neighborhood, don't drink too much, watch your drink so no one slips you a mickey, don't dress so provocatively...How about we tell men: Don't rape. No means no.

[bibiche]

I think that Aziz was completely inappropriate (and gross) in his actions, but not a rapist. I also think that star-struck young women should not go to an entitled-feeling near-stranger's house at night.

 

I have heard a lot of people (other places) talking about teaching our daughters how to and not to behave in these situations. I have not heard too much about teaching our sons not to pressure vulnerable young women into sex acts. I have heard 'Make Sure You Get Verbal Consent', I've heard 'There's an app that you can use to record consent', but I haven't heard 'Treat women with respect. Back off when she seems uncomfortable. Don't be grabby. You can tell when she wants to slow down or stop, don't ignore it and see what you can get away with.'

 

It reminds me of all the things we tell women so we protect ourselves: Don't go to his house alone, don't walk alone in a bad neighborhood, don't drink too much, watch your drink so no one slips you a mickey, don't dress so provocatively...How about we tell men: Don't rape. No means no.

I've been teaching this to my child ( in varying levels of explicitness due to his age) for many years. It's not a last minute aside when they are headed off to college. And it's for their own protection as well.

[Corraleno]

I think that Aziz was completely inappropriate (and gross) in his actions, but not a rapist. I also think that star-struck young women should not go to an entitled-feeling near-stranger's house at night.

 

I have heard a lot of people (other places) talking about teaching our daughters how to and not to behave in these situations. I have not heard too much about teaching our sons not to pressure vulnerable young women into sex acts. I have heard 'Make Sure You Get Verbal Consent', I've heard 'There's an app that you can use to record consent', but I haven't heard 'Treat women with respect. Back off when she seems uncomfortable. Don't be grabby. You can tell when she wants to slow down or stop, don't ignore it and see what you can get away with.'

 

It reminds me of all the things we tell women so we protect ourselves: Don't go to his house alone, don't walk alone in a bad neighborhood, don't drink too much, watch your drink so no one slips you a mickey, don't dress so provocatively...How about we tell men: Don't rape. No means no.

 

Teaching men that "no means no" doesn't do much good, though, if women aren't actually saying "no." Women need to be empowered to clearly and explicitly say "no, I don't want to do this, I want to leave." Don't worry that it's not polite, or he'll think you're a bitch, or he spent X amount on dinner so you owe him something. Don't expect a distracted horny guy to read your mind or pick up on subtle "nonverbal cues" — especially if those cues are being sent while engaging in the sex you allegedly don't want. If you explicitly say "you need to stop" and the guy doesn't stop, then that is assault. Prosecute his ass to the fullest extent of the law. But don't give a guy blow job while hoping he eventually notices that you are not super enthusiastic about it, and then complain that he forced himself on you.

 

We can teach our sons to be Prince Charming, but that doesn't help our daughters in a world full of men who are not. Better to raise them as self-rescuing princesses rather than helpless damsels relying on the chivalry of men to keep them safe.

[Sandwalker]

Teaching men that "no means no" doesn't do much good, though, if women aren't actually saying "no." Women need to be empowered to clearly and explicitly say "no, I don't want to do this, I want to leave." Don't worry that it's not polite, or he'll think you're a bitch, or he spent X amount on dinner so you owe him something. Don't expect a distracted horny guy to read your mind or pick up on subtle "nonverbal cues" — especially if those cues are being sent while engaging in the sex you allegedly don't want. If you explicitly say "you need to stop" and the guy doesn't stop, then that is assault. Prosecute his ass to the fullest extent of the law. But don't give a guy blow job while hoping he eventually notices that you are not super enthusiastic about it, and then complain that he forced himself on you.

 

We can teach our sons to be Prince Charming, but that doesn't help our daughters in a world full of men who are not. Better to raise them as self-rescuing princesses rather than helpless damsels relying on the chivalry of men to keep them safe.

I certainly didn't mean not to empower our daughters.

[Corraleno]

I certainly didn't mean not to empower our daughters.

Oh I know — I was just adding that in addition to teaching our sons to make sure they get a yes, we need to teach daughters how to say no to all the guys who won't bother asking.

 

The surprising thing to me about the Ansari story wasn't that a celebrity acted like an entitled jerk, it was that an otherwise intelligent, capable, adult woman somehow couldn't figure out how to say "no."

[marbel]

Several of you here commented that Grace did not seem to have written the article out of revenge.  I'm wondering about that.  What could be her motivation for writing and publishing this piece, if not to call out the guy publicly for bad behavior and make him look like a jerk/rapist/fool?   It's not for her own fame, since her identity is hidden, at least for now.

 

Of course, if she'd written a piece about the same experience but with a non-famous guy, no one would have published it.  

 

ETA: By the way, I'm not saying that she did want vengeance.  I don't know. I'm just curious about others' perceptions of that. 
 

ETA2: Here is a NY Times piece, with some interesting comments. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by marbel

[Hyacinth]

The whole evening sounds awkward, highly unsatisfying (both physically and emotionally), and just plain regrettable. I suspect that's fairly typical for much of the hookup culture (but I'm old and married and have admittedly curmudgeonly views on these sorts of things).

 

Nonetheless, he showed her clearly early on what he was all about. Maybe she thought if she stuck around long enough and redirected the activity or conversation that he'd start to see her as someone more valuable or interesting or worth his mental energy, but I wish she would've read HIS nonverbal cues and gotten the heck out of there a whole lot sooner.

 

ETA: Among the best advice I've ever heard: When someone shows you who he is, believe him.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Hyacinth

[LMD]

Well, I think it is part of women telling their stories at the moment. Sparked by #metoo, but as a safe dialogue about sexuality from the woman's perspective. A perspective that is usually either idolised or pornified. I think it is an important conversation, part of discussing consent and rape culture.

 

It reminds me of the short story Cat Person published late last year.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person

 

I really doubt it will help Grace get 15 mins of fame, it rarely works that way for women.

[Twolittleboys]

I also don't see this as sexual assault or anything close and I do worry about the way women have been portrayed lately (not always, but on occasion). Women aren't weak creatures that have no control over their own actions/fate or others. Nor are they always well-intentioned, right, faultless etc. I can see this leading to quite unwanted results. 

 

I am strongly against what I consider sexual assault and I do understand that people have different definitions. But honestly, when you have two grown adults with no real power imbalance between them (e.g. boss/intern, teacher/student etc.) putting all the responsibility on the man seems strange. They are not mind-readers (we all know that). As long as there is no force involved and you can leave at any time/say no, it is your responsibility to make sure nothing unwanted happens just as much as the man's. Yes, I understand that sometimes people get caught up in the moment but part of being an adult is to take responsibilities for ones own actions. In this case that might be to say, I didn't really want to do all this - I should have spoken up/refused (again, there doesn't seem any indication that force or threats were used)

[Bluegoat]

To me this reads like a heck of a lot of one night stands people have where one person feels unsure of what they want, or feels like the other person is kind of a big deal.  And I'm not surprised at her age - that's probably about the time a lot of people, and maybe particularly young women, discover that the one night stand isn't all it's cracked up to be.  Whereas he probably had a fairly clear sense of what he was getting into and wanted.  I really don't think that makes it inappropriate though.  If someone had told her she wasn't old enough to consent to a one-night stand, I suspect she'd have disputed it - the corollary of that is you're old enough to be disappointed with the experience.

 

I find it difficult to say to what extent Ansari should have noticed she was hesitant, or even should have avoided pressuring her, or should have gone back to explicit verbal questions.  My difficulty with these kinds of interactions is that sometimes one person really thinks that has already happened, or just isn't that perceptive, or the non-verbal cues being sent aren't nearly as clear as the person sending them thinks.  If you aren't being understood, you should speak up - I didn't even get the impression she needed to be brusque about it, only that she actually needed to be clear that she didn't just want a slower pace.  I'm not convinced he was ever really under the impression she didn't want a sexual encounter, or that she was sure she didn't.  Anyway, pressuring someone for sex isn't a crime, even when you agree, any more than I can complain about agreeing to give money when someone pressures me to do so.  

 

I don't quite see where people think she went along because she was scared he would rape her - surely if just being alone with a man is enough to make you agree to anything, we should be banning one night stands, among other things.

 

I tend to agree with hose who had the feeling she was interested in something more substantial, and it made it difficult for her to decide what to do.  It tend to think there is a sense there in which my grandmother is right - if that is what you are looking for, casual sex isn't the way to get it.  I think it's not uncommon for people to be kind of stuck in a dating scene where they are looking for a relationship but casual encounters are an expectation even before a relationship is on the table and with no guarantee that the other person is interested in that.  And it's not often something that young people are explicitly asked to think about before making decisions about dating and sex.

 

I don't think she was out for revenge, she seems confused about what assault is, and I think she's going to have a difficult time finding her agency or thinking about what she wants as long as that's the case.  I do think it's a problem to publish something like this which will certainly affect the other person, perhaps seriously, who really hasn't done anything illegal and maybe not even wrong.  If nothing else it's an invasion of privacy.

[Bluegoat]

Several of you here commented that Grace did not seem to have written the article out of revenge.  I'm wondering about that.  What could be her motivation for writing and publishing this piece, if not to call out the guy publicly for bad behavior and make him look like a jerk/rapist/fool?   It's not for her own fame, since her identity is hidden, at least for now.

 

Of course, if she'd written a piece about the same experience but with a non-famous guy, no one would have published it.  

 

ETA: By the way, I'm not saying that she did want vengeance.  I don't know. I'm just curious about others' perceptions of that. 

 

ETA2: Here is a NY Times piece, with some interesting comments. 

 

 

I think she might have thought she was exposing a rapist, just like all those other people who have spoken up.  Not a feeling of vengeance, but a feeling of being a good person, fighting the man, etc.

 

People will get all rah-rah about that, but seem to forget those kinds of emotions can give rise to some very negative behaviours as well as good ones.

 

 

[poppy]

I feel bad for the guy, getting embarrassed.   He'll be known for this for a long time. 

 

I know of no one who is on the side of the 'victim'.   Shame on Babe for publishing it. 

[Bluegoat]

It's not the only thing that's come out of the #metoo that's been questionable though.  It's interesting that this is the one that people have come together on to some extent, because I feel rather sorry for her - she seems like a victim who has been completely disempowered, in part by the way we are teaching about sex crimes and consent more generally.  

 

There have been other people who have printed things that seemed a lot less sympathetic to me, but they didn't seem to create nearly the same level of distain.

[Sandwalker]

Oh I know — I was just adding that in addition to teaching our sons to make sure they get a yes, we need to teach daughters how to say no to all the guys who won't bother asking.

 

The surprising thing to me about the Ansari story wasn't that a celebrity acted like an entitled jerk, it was that an otherwise intelligent, capable, adult woman somehow couldn't figure out how to say "no."

Yes, I agree, of course we teach our daughters to protect themselves. Mine studied martial arts. In this situation, his actions were predatory; hers were weak. I'm sad because I watch his show and now can't look at him the same way.

[poppy]

It's not the only thing that's come out of the #metoo that's been questionable though.  It's interesting that this is the one that people have come together on to some extent, because I feel rather sorry for her - she seems like a victim who has been completely disempowered, in part by the way we are teaching about sex crimes and consent more generally.  

 

There have been other people who have printed things that seemed a lot less sympathetic to me, but they didn't seem to create nearly the same level of distain.

 

 

I don't think she is going to be completely disempowered, I'm sure just about everyone who will now look at the guy  in a different way.  He was a  lousy date and the details of how far into the date and performed and received certain sex acts is being very widely discussed.   That's a violation, too. really.

 

I don't watch his show, I didn't watch P&R, I just know his face.