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Why do I keep seeing the word "women" spelled as "womyn"?


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#851 goldberry

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 02:39 PM

It's a direct consequence of a theory that says bio sex is irrelevant and that gender is our primary characteristic. Defend the theory, you can hardly disallow the logical end points.


I don't ascribe to any theory that says that. Bio sex has hardly been irrelevant in the lives of the trans people I know. There is a conflict for them between bio sex and gender. That is far from the conclusion you're making. And no, even then, telling lesbians to "suck d*ck" is not a logical end point, any more than "all men are dogs" is the logical endpoint of feminism.
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#852 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 02:41 PM

Let’s compare it to sexual orientation , then. Attraction is ‘subjective’ . Why do you feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation not but comfortable accepting gender ? Or do you not feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation as a legitimate category ?

#853 LMD

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 02:46 PM

Let’s compare it to sexual orientation , then. Attraction is ‘subjective’ . Why do you feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation not but comfortable accepting gender ? Or do you not feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation as a legitimate category ?

Attraction is measurable, definable. A legitimate category of what?
Gay men and lesbian women aren't telling me to call myself a 'uterus bearer' instead of a woman.

So, can you measure or define gender?

Edited by LMD, 21 January 2018 - 02:47 PM.

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#854 goldberry

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 02:46 PM

But you don't think that's rooted in prioritizing, in that particular situation, gender over sex?.


How does prioritizing it in some situations mean prioritizing it in all though? It's a normal part of life to weigh one value against another based on circumstance. I don't think it has to or should be black and white.
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#855 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 02:49 PM

Attraction is measurable, definable. A legitimate category of what?
Gay men and lesbian women aren't telling me to call myself a 'uterus bearer' instead of a woman.

So, can you measure or define gender?


You never heard the term ‘breeders’ ?

How do you measure attraction in a non subjective way ?

#856 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:00 PM

Can someone point me to scientific studies on gender: what it is and how we measure it, is it static or changing, anything? This might help my understanding.

 

I have no idea about scientific studies, I am not a scientist.  But you could try the APA FAQ as a fairly neutral place to start (as opposed to pro- or anti-trans sites).
 



#857 Bluegoat

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:10 PM

I don't understand why "disadvantaged class who were banned fought for access" applies in some cases, but not others. Do you not consider transgendered men and  women to be a disadvantaged class of people?

 

I am not comparing in scale but in principle.

 

It's because they are actually separate things.  You can't collapse them down into each other.

 

So - black Americans were oppressed, or maybe we can say treated unfairly, on the basis of race, with regard to toilets. The justifications around this were in fact false - mostly entered around health and the dangers of racial mixing.

 

It's also the case that female people fought for bathrooms separate from male people.  This is a distinct situation from the race issue, though some people were in fact impacted by both.  In this case, the basis of the issue was different - that mixed bathrooms were a problem for women. (And we see the same thing actually today in places like Afghanistan or India where there are women and girls trying to have dedicated bathrooms for for females.)  

 

This doesn't mean that black men should be allowed in women's bathrooms - these are separate issues.


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#858 LMD

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:10 PM

You never heard the term ‘breeders’ ?

How do you measure attraction in a non subjective way ?


I've heard it. They're not trying to legally redefine 'woman'

You measure it scientifically, by making repeatable observations.

But I'm not going to be drawn in to proving a negative. Can you answer my questions? What is gender and why is it irrelevant to and more important than sex?
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#859 Bluegoat

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:17 PM

I don't ascribe to any theory that says that. Bio sex has hardly been irrelevant in the lives of the trans people I know. There is a conflict for them between bio sex and gender. That is far from the conclusion you're making. And no, even then, telling lesbians to "suck d*ck" is not a logical end point, any more than "all men are dogs" is the logical endpoint of feminism.

 

But I think this is the point.

 

You are using an outmoded  - or what is considered an outmoded - view of sex, one that would be considered transphobic.

 

Sex dysphoria is the old model, and it's what most people think of when they talk about this issue.  So yes - sex is an important point if you are dysphoric.  Logically, people in that position should really not want "woman" to commonly mean male or female, since the focus of the problem is their body, not what word someone uses - ultimately it would tend to undermine the usefulness, in terms of alleviating suffering - of presenting as the other gender.

 

The current narrative in transactivisim - the reason that the language change from transexual to transgender occurred - is that sex is no longer considered a defining element of being transgendered.  There is no need for the person identifying that way to feel dysphoric, to want to undertake any medical transition, or indeed to be interested in presenting socially through clothing, name changes, or anything else.


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#860 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:26 PM

But I think this is the point.

 

You are using an outmoded  - or what is considered an outmoded - view of sex, one that would be considered transphobic.

 

Sex dysphoria is the old model, and it's what most people think of when they talk about this issue.  So yes - sex is an important point if you are dysphoric.  Logically, people in that position should really not want "woman" to commonly mean male or female, since the focus of the problem is their body, not what word someone uses - ultimately it would tend to undermine the usefulness, in terms of alleviating suffering - of presenting as the other gender.

 

The current narrative in transactivisim - the reason that the language change from transexual to transgender occurred - is that sex is no longer considered a defining element of being transgendered.  There is no need for the person identifying that way to feel dysphoric, to want to undertake any medical transition, or indeed to be interested in presenting socially through clothing, name changes, or anything else.

 

This thread has a whole lot of "you're not allowed to say this" and "you're transphobic if you say that" by people who disagree with that point of view..  It's a slippery way to argue.



#861 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:27 PM

I've heard it. They're not trying to legally redefine 'woman'

You measure it scientifically, by making repeatable observations.

But I'm not going to be drawn in to proving a negative. Can you answer my questions? What is gender and why is it irrelevant to and more important than sex?

 

Maybe try the APA FAQ I linked. 



#862 LMD

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:34 PM

Maybe try the APA FAQ I linked.


Oh I did. This phrase was used repeatedly - "gender identity refers to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

Interestingly it also said this -
"Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves."

So, again, if gender is a sincere feeling based on sex stereotypes, how does that make trans women literally women? Why is it legally more important than sex, and sex based rights?
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#863 Sandwalker

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:01 PM

You never heard the term ‘breeders’ ?

How do you measure attraction in a non subjective way ?

I find "breeders" to be a rude and unkind term.
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#864 Greta

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:08 PM

I guess you are right.
But if it is misogynistic to privilege gender over sex , doesn’t that make using ‘preferred pronouns’ an act of misogyny ?

 

 

Hmm, I don't think so, but I will think about it more. Being asked to refer to a trans woman as "she" simply feels like sharing to me, that nothing is being taken from me.  I guess I'm happy to refer to other people how they want to be referred to, that just seems like common decency.  But being asked (much less told!) not to refer to myself simply as a woman (without any modifier like cis, natal, born, biological, whatever) feels like something has been taken away.  And it's very ironic since it's coming from people who are insisting on their own right to define themselves any way they wish.  Why do I not have the same right?  So one feels like misogyny and the other doesn't, though I realize there is emotion and not pure reason in that.


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#865 Greta

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:11 PM

How does prioritizing it in some situations mean prioritizing it in all though? It's a normal part of life to weigh one value against another based on circumstance. I don't think it has to or should be black and white.

 

 

Yes, I would certainly hope that prioritizing it in some situations wouldn't mean prioritizing it in all.


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#866 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:12 PM

I find "breeders" to be a rude and unkind term.

 

It was meant to be.

 

The poster said something to the effect of "gay rights activist don't call me names".   But the gay rights movement is much, much further along than the trans movement currently is.  The 'edges' you see in the trans movement certainly existed in the gay rights movement,  and not that long ago.   There are a lot of parallels: the  "is it a mental illness" debate, the treat of having to share bathrooms and changing rooms with gay people being the most obvious.  



#867 Sandwalker

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:16 PM

I have no idea about scientific studies, I am not a scientist. But you could try the APA FAQ as a fairly neutral place to start (as opposed to pro- or anti-trans sites).

Well, thank you for the pamphlet link, but there are no studies in their reference section, either.
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#868 Joker

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:18 PM

I'd like to point out that no one is doing my son any favors by referring to him as a he. His sex on all documents, including birth certificate and state issued license, all list his sex as male so it's not his preferred pronoun; it just is his pronoun.

Not all states make it possible but many do. Many in this thread may not like it but I don't see it changing, thankfully.

#869 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:18 PM

Oh I did. This phrase was used repeatedly - "gender identity refers to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

Interestingly it also said this -
"Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves."

So, again, if gender is a sincere feeling based on sex stereotypes, how does that make trans women literally women? Why is it legally more important than sex, and sex based rights?

 

Why do you think trans people are transgendered?

 

I don't know what nation you live in, but in mine, the idea that trans people are more important than /  have more security and protections and rights than women is really  not true.    Perhaps that's part of the disconnect in this conversation. 



#870 poppy

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:30 PM

Well, thank you for the pamphlet link, but there are no studies in their reference section, either.

 

Oh, I see.   I thought you were sincerely seeking basic info.  I don't really know the science, aside from the fact that there has been some interesting stuff about brain chemistry.



#871 Greta

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:31 PM

I'd like to point out that no one is doing my son any favors by referring to him as a he. His sex on all documents, including birth certificate and state issued license, all list his sex as male so it's not his preferred pronoun; it just is his pronoun.

Not all states make it possible but many do. Many in this thread may not like it but I don't see it changing, thankfully.

 

 

I absolutely see it as basic human decency, and not a "favor" at all, and if it came across otherwise, then I sincerely apologize.  I am sorry.

 

You raised a question earlier about how those of us who are claiming (for lack of a better way to put this) that sex trumps gender would handle the difference between someone who had transitioned at the age of six and been raised as a female for most of her life, versus someone who had transitioned as an adult and had all of those years of maleness before becoming female.  I think it's a very good question.  I think it's a very important question.  And I wanted to be honest enough to say that I don't have an answer.  That's the way that I feel about several things that have been brought up in this thread - I don't have answers, just more questions.  But I think the conversation is so worthwhile and so important, so I wanted to thank you for being part of it.  I know that it was painful for you at times (or maybe the whole time?) so I just wanted to express my appreciation.  

 

I appreciate everyone who has posted.  I have found this challenging and enlightening.  And confusing as all heck, but that's okay!   :001_smile:


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#872 LMD

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:35 PM

Why do you think trans people are transgendered?

I don't know what nation you live in, but in mine, the idea that trans people are more important than / have more security and protections and rights than women is really not true. Perhaps that's part of the disconnect in this conversation.


I'm not going to be drawn into proving a negative.
Why do you think some people identify as trans gender?

I never said that trans people are more important or currently have more protections.
I have said that if laws and language are being changed that potentially remove rights and protections from an oppressed class, then the basis for those laws should at least be able to be carefully defined and explained.

If you're going to change the legal meaning of 'Native American' to 'anyone born on one of the American continents' and then wealthy white folks start applying for Native Americans grants or scholarships - would you expect Native American people to be upset and ask for explicit and careful reasoning behind the change?
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#873 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:02 PM

Hi, all,

 

The moderators asked me to pop and and have a look at this thread about three hours ago, but I was on the road and just now got to my computer.

 

I feel that you've probably achieved as much as you can with this discussion, and that those of you who still have issues to hash out with each other should take it to PMs.

 

Thanks.

 

SWB