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Oh, please tell me how to handle this. I'm fuming!


Meadowlark
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Um, no, not if it is meant to be a public organization, they don't.  

 

I run all the children's education stuff for my church.  And I don't get to say "oh, parents, if you want our information you all have to join this social media platform, X.  By the way, they make their money by information mining, manipulating users through information controls, advertising, and designing the most addictive platform they can."

 

I suppose if was actually my own group, I could insist, but it wouldn't be ethical, and I wouldn't expect people to be defending my position.

 

ETA  - when group emails are ineffective it is usually because people don't bother to read them.  That really is their own problem.

 

That is because you belong to the church and the church decides how it will be represented to people

 

IF 4-H wanted to tell all its groups "to be part of us you have to be willing to communicate by email" -- they they would have to comply. If they don't have druthers. Then each group gets to set its own communication preferences by what the group as a whole is willing to do/the leader is willing to do. If the person doing the communicating can not handle a certain method -- then that method is not going to get done. Its just the way the world works. If I had to go knock on doors to communicate, that would be a position I would not sign up for and if the rules changed so that I had to knock on doors to communicate changes, I'd be NOT signing up again as soon as my commitment was over.

 

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By the way, they make their money by information mining, manipulating users through information controls, advertising, and designing the most addictive platform they can."

 

I suppose if was actually my own group, I could insist, but it wouldn't be ethical, and I wouldn't expect people to be defending my position.

 

ETA  - when group emails are ineffective it is usually because people don't bother to read them.  That really is their own problem.

This. Nothing more needs to be said.

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Actually, it's the other way around.  The IRS offers multiple ways to do your taxes.  The courts offer multiple ways to pay your ticket.  The health insurance company has websites and apps and emails and phone numbers and FB and everything else.  My husband's work communicates with their employees by in person meetings and phone conversations and texts (and an app for payroll.)  The government certainly does not require that you only use one form of communication.  And in fact, most organizations do offer multiple means of communicating.  I have actually never encountered one IRL that ONLY uses FB. 

 

 

I'm talking about required communications to another party.  It is not normal to be required to disseminate a single message in multiple ways.  Sure, a large government or corporate organization will offer multiple platforms which users can make the effort to utilize.  If there is a tax change affecting your computation, the IRS will post it on its website and maybe also in its spam emails (which you have to sign up for) and maybe on some place you can call into.  The responsibility is on you to figure out how to find that info.  You can't say "I am against the IRS website so I am not going to go there; the IRS needs to call me and tell me personally if anything changes."  (And this even though IRS employees are not volunteering their time.) 

 

Likewise you get to choose whether to file your tax return by snail mail or IRS efile.  Either or.  The IRS does NOT want to receive your tax return both ways; and if you don't happen to like the efile or paper options, i.e. you would rather pdf and email your tax return, too bad.

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apparently - I'm now way behind.

 


I am curious how people would feel if this was the other way around.  Lets say it's the leader who has been doing FB, then decides to leave.  And says she will use group texts (and ONLY that) to communicate from now on.  And someone pipes up and says they don't have a smart phone, just a dumb phone that doesn't receive texts.  Is that person now a special snowflake?

 

irrelevant to this discussion.  (then you'd have an entire group likely complaining because it affects the entire group- not one person who wants to be treated differently and it only affects her.)

 

OK, I see where the leader didn't even agree to provide alternative communication to the OP.

"Good to know" is not agreement to anything.

It's more of a " I've got a lot going on and figuring out this extra thing is not priority right now. (And maybe I will remember to figure it out later)"

 

no - it isn't agreeing to anything and it wasn't her responsibility to come up with another way to contact the OP.   nor did the OP make any suggestion of how she was now going to keep in contact with the happenings on the group.

I absolutely welcome multiple notifications.  I appreciate it. 

 

I am sorry that it's "hard to have to tell someone no" but when a leader isn't upfront about what they can and can't do....it's the kids that lose out.  And that's where the problem is.

 

I detest them.  texts, emails. no thanks.  pick-one.  I recently even had to go through with a single provider to get me off multiple notifications.

when you're getting multiples - you stop looking because you think "i've already seen that'.  

I no longer take reminder cards because it goes on my phone's calendar.

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I think what she meant to say is that it is irrelevant.

 

The leader is providing what is effectively thousands of dollars worth of work to the families.

 

They can accept the gift graciously or demand she do it their way.

 

Be gracious. Being a group leader is hard even when people aren't critical.

 

I agree that Facebook is not a good platform.

 

I also think that unless I give up my dinner, my free time, my date night, for other people's likes, I have to use it. Or not join.

 

Does that make sense?

 

You can be right about Facebook and wrong in thinking that you get to tell a gift giver what to give.

 

I don't think this is the whole story on volunteering.  As a volunteer, sure, there are some things you can set your own terms for, but there are others you can't.  When you take on a position, you do need to have the ability to meet the demands of the role.

 

Back in the old days, people really did have to call around to everyone if they were volunteering as a communications person or leader or whoever did that.  They had to make up newsletters, and so on.  Someone who said they would lead a group without actually doing this - well, it wouldn't make sense.

 

Well, now they don't, which is nice.  And communications are far more varied.  But that does with its own trade-offs, like people choosing different methods, or different platforms, which in a way makes communication less simple than it was in the phone days.

 

If someone is going to be effectively communicating with a group that's just the reality.  And I think the two basic approaches are they will have to either choose the most basic communications options like email or phone and newsletters - more like business communications - or they will have to use all the popular communications platforms as well as those other things.  The former to me, seems the simplest, or one of those AND whatever the most commonly used platform is.

 

I mean, the situation isn't actually getting any easier - there are more and more platforms, and plenty of people aren't on FB, especially if they are younger, the use other things.  At a certain point it's going to get to where people doing communications are having to navigate more of them, or switch to new ones if  more of the user group prefers different ones.  Which also seems rather fraught - more work for the volunteer to ad more groups, but you will leave people behind if you switch.

 

But I don't think a volunteer always gets to set the parameters - and I suppose especially for an organization where they are filling a particular role.

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That is because you belong to the church and the church decides how it will be represented to people

 

IF 4-H wanted to tell all its groups "to be part of us you have to be willing to communicate by email" -- they they would have to comply. If they don't have druthers. Then each group gets to set its own communication preferences by what the group as a whole is willing to do/the leader is willing to do. If the person doing the communicating can not handle a certain method -- then that method is not going to get done. Its just the way the world works. If I had to go knock on doors to communicate, that would be a position I would not sign up for and if the rules changed so that I had to knock on doors to communicate changes, I'd be NOT signing up again as soon as my commitment was over.

 

No, it's because it would be unreasonable and unethical for me to demand that of people.

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Even my dumb flip phone received texts.

One of the supervisors at work only had a flip phone. He could not receive the group texts sent from the company, though he could receive individual texts. It also cut off the texts at a certain point. The company recently bought him an iPhone specifically because of this.

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I'm talking about required communications to another party.  It is not normal to be required to disseminate a single message in multiple ways.  Sure, a large government or corporate organization will offer multiple platforms which users can make the effort to utilize.  If there is a tax change affecting your computation, the IRS will post it on its website and maybe also in its spam emails (which you have to sign up for) and maybe on some place you can call into.  The responsibility is on you to figure out how to find that info.  You can't say "I am against the IRS website so I am not going to go there; the IRS needs to call me and tell me personally if anything changes."  (And this even though IRS employees are not volunteering their time.) 

 

Likewise you get to choose whether to file your tax return by snail mail or IRS efile.  Either or.  The IRS does NOT want to receive your tax return both ways; and if you don't happen to like the efile or paper options, i.e. you would rather pdf and email your tax return, too bad.

 

But this is just it - when an organization wants it's information to be available to many members and users, they generally try and put it in many different formats - paper, letters, phone, their own websites, and email, being the most basic ones for businesses, large social organizations, and especially government.  They might not use them all, it will depend on what they are trying to do - but they will look to use as many as possible.

 

And for organizations like government, no, they are not going to use FB or Snapchat as a primary means of communication.  

 

Now, a small volunteer organization probably can't manage that.  But probably if they can find two fairly different forms of communication, that will cover most people who would want information from them, which seems like a good communications strategy.  For a group with a lot of last minute stuff, I'd tend to go for phone or email, and text or FB.

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Instead of Facebook, imagine this was 1990 and you refused to turn your phone ringer on because you found the ringing intrusive, and then were miffed that they wouldn't mail you the changes each time, or stop by and tell you. That is how it is coming across to her.

 

You have the ability to use Facebook. They communicate via Facebook. But you don't like it, and want special treatment.

 

Had you no internet, and no ability to use Facebook, I could see them trying to help you. But having access to the messages and basically just choosing not to read them, while wanting another communication method? Sorry, no sympathy.

 

If say, you can't be on Facebook because you have a violent stalker trying to find you, fine, let her know and maybe they can find another way to make this work. Otherwise, it's just a communication method, there is nothing moral or immoral about Facebook anymore than there is with a phone line. You don't have to gossip on it anymore than you have to gossip on the phone. Or post photos, or whatever. Just set it up to get notifications from that group.

Facebook really isn't just a communication method.

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I just checked my email to see what her response was. Her words were "okay, good to know". How would you take that?

 

How did you take it?

 

I think it is very open-ended and requires follow-up by you to establish an alternative communication method that is agreed by both parties.  With that, you could very politely remind the person while forgiving the inevitable human errors that will occur.

 

As far as I can tell, there was no promise on the volunteer's part to do anything in particular to make sure you get the messages.  Maybe she intended to follow up but forgot, but since it is your son who needs the communications, I think it's on you or him to establish and get agreement (if applicable) on the communication method.

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guys, 20 years ago we were having the same arguments about email.

"Oh but I hate having to check the computer! I don't even turn it on every day! Why can't Jane just call me about the playgroup meeting?! I mean what is wrong with the phone trees that we've had for the last 10 years!!!!! I prefer to get a phone call!" 

 

Remember that person who joined a group and said oh she doesn't have email or can't remember it or  gave an email address but then told you she never checks it??  Jeez that was annoying.   

I'm Team "Apologize to the organizer, make a dummy fb account as instructed above and just move on" 

 

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I love all the commentary on what the leader should have done. HowĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s that working for you? Bottom line, this 4H communicates over FB. You either find a way to participate in that communication, or miss out on things.

 

No, you shouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t demand personal communication.

No, you shouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t scold the leader for not clearly stating that she wasnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t going to be personally communicating changes.

No, not every leader sees the need for 2 forms of communication.

Yes, your son will probably be affected occasionally.

No, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not anyone elseĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s fault.

 

You must weigh this out. Are you willing to sacrifice being in the loop in order to avoid FB? If yes, then explain your convictions to your son and accept that this will cause an occasional problem. If no, then make a dummy FB account. THERE IS NO OTHER.

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It would be unreasonable, yes.

But why unethical, if it was declared up front?

 

It's what I said already - "you have to join this online group to be part of our 4-H/homeschool group/Sunday school.  You have to agree to give them certain personal information, which they use to mine data.  Also, they manipulate information given to users to influence thinking, and it's designed to be addictive.  Not interested - well, that's your choice."

 

Telling them they can set up a fake account doesn't really address the issue.

 

I think in general too, it's walking a line to tell members of these kids of organizations that they have to buy product from certain providers.  Sometimes it can be legitimate because of the nature of the product, but it tends to run close to support of particular commercial entities.

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guys, 20 years ago we were having the same arguments about email.

 

"Oh but I hate having to check the computer! I don't even turn it on every day! Why can't Jane just call me about the playgroup meeting?! I mean what is wrong with the phone trees that we've had for the last 10 years!!!!! I prefer to get a phone call!" 

 

Remember that person who joined a group and said oh she doesn't have email or can't remember it or  gave an email address but then told you she never checks it??  Jeez that was annoying.   

 

I'm Team "Apologize to the organizer, make a dummy fb account as instructed above and just move on" 

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

And all this aversion to FB because they try to hook you in as if that's something new and frightening. You know, like soap operas and serial stories in print or on the radio. Even books - people used to think that people would stop talking to each other because they'd be too busy reading books. The horror.

 

Use FB or don't use FB. But don't make it someone else's problem that you don't like the current means of communication. 

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Another FB hater here.  But when it becomes important for me to communicate with groups, I will set up a dummy account.  

 

Similarly, I'm waiting anxiously for my cell phone to die, because my ds's judo communicates through a What's App group and I don't have a smartphone.  

 

I still get to control HOW I use those platforms, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.  

 

I will NOT put the burden of responsibility on someone else.  I don't know a single person who has that kind of spare brain-space to remember me constantly, even with the best of intentions.  

 

such a shame it fell out of your pocket and landed in that puddle . . .  :D 

 

Even my dumb flip phone received texts.

 

dh's receive's texts.  there is only one person I know of who will text him.   he will text back- and it's harder on the dumb phone.

no one in our family will text him.

 

I've no idea if he receives group texts - because hardly anyone texts him.

 

Actually, it IS harder to use email for this stuff. First, i have to find a way to get everyone's email address, and put them into a group, or remember to type everyone in each time. I don't even know if I know how to create an email group, lol! With Facebook people add themselves, I don't have to see out their information. Or keep a spreadsheet or whatever. 

 

Also, with email it is JUST email. With Facebook I have events (like a calendar), polls, files (perfect to keep the group rules, etc) and more. Email alone doesn't do all that.

 

the other issue with email (and texts) - vs FB/et.   I don't want other people getting my email address or my phone number.  and that's something that happens all the time with groups emails/texts, unless you've got someone who is 1) savvy, and 2) reliably aware to make sure that information is kept private.

 

I think the leader of a group IS obligated to make a reasonable attempt to provide information about the group's events.  I don't think that using 2 methods is unreasonable. 

 

It doesn't matter so much how WE interpret it right now......but it clearly mattered how the OP interpreted it at the time because the OP thought the leader had agreed.  And that would make the situation one of leader saying she would do X....and then didn't do X. 

 

how the OP interpreted it isn't relevant to how the group leader meant it. the group leader did NOT say she would send information another way - and the OP never directly asked her to do so or if it would work for her to send her information separately.

the onus is on the OP.

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The leader's response "Good to know" spelled out clearly she's not an e-mail communicator.  Good to know might just mean - meh, ok, I'll know not to tag you on facebook anymore or expect to see you there.  Not - I would love to jump through an additional hoop to keep you informed and up to date.  Since you haven't seen e-mails the writing has been on the wall for 2 months.   

This is how I would've responded and this is what I would've meant by that response. 

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guys, 20 years ago we were having the same arguments about email.

 

"Oh but I hate having to check the computer! I don't even turn it on every day! Why can't Jane just call me about the playgroup meeting?! I mean what is wrong with the phone trees that we've had for the last 10 years!!!!! I prefer to get a phone call!" 

 

Remember that person who joined a group and said oh she doesn't have email or can't remember it or  gave an email address but then told you she never checks it??  Jeez that was annoying.   

 

I'm Team "Apologize to the organizer, make a dummy fb account as instructed above and just move on" 

 

 

 

 

Those kinds of complaints really have little in common with the reason people don't want to use FB.  They do seem similar to the reasons some are claiming group emails are no good.

 

At one time, many people didn't have computers, which was a good argument for not using email as a primary method. They were expensive and people didn't need them the same way, or to check them as often.   And it still is among some groups, like the elderly or homeless.  But the reasons people don't want to use FB aren't really all that similar.

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In my experience, an established group went to facebook after polling the then existing members and taking their connectivity into consideration.  That may well have happened with the OP's 4H group.  It's not fair to assume that the members' needs were not considered.  Up until recently, the OP and all the other members were on fb, so the problem did not exist until OP made a change.

 

I don't think communication methods that have been working need to be revisited every time a member makes an optional change or a new member with a different preference joins.  That would just make it more chaotic for everyone else in the group.

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You know, when I was hsing, I tried to make sure I wasn't a difficult-to-deal-with parent.  I wanted my kids included whenever possible.  I wanted them to have access to the full range of cool things that parents were organizing.  And having organized a vast number of activities over the years, I have to say, some of them simply weren't advertised to, or open to, the families who took a lot more work to deal with.  If you need a million reminders, if you want special communications, if you say you're coming but you don't show up, if you say you will take on a task or lead an activity and you don't, if you tell me to buy your tickets but you never pay me back, if you take the time to complain when things aren't perfect but never take on a task to help - you're not going to be the first one I consider inviting when I create the next super-cool activity.

 

OP, if your kid likes this activity, figure out a way to  make it work.  Maybe that just means accepting that sometimes you'll be out of the loop.  Or maybe it means figuring out how to get access to the communications through a method other than FB.  But don't be mad at the leader.  She's just a regular mom, trying to create a cool activity for her kid and some friends.  She doesn't need the extra work you're trying to give her - she's doing enough already.  Make sure you thank her every. single. time. there is a meeting, and do what you can, every single time, to take something off of her plate.  Bring a snack, lead an activity, be the communications mom, do the record-keeping for 4H, donate to the group's treasury - find a way to help.

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But I also don't see 4-H as a public group (are they publicly funded?  I am not sure) that has to make themselves available or accessible in a certain way to all who want to join.

 

I think using facebook is stupid and I don't like it and don't use it, but I acknowledge that other people disagree and may start their own groups like 4-H or swimming club or whatever and what they do is up to them.

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I'd probably deal with it the way I deal with my group that meets weekly. They have Facebook access. I do not. It's an internet issue here at my house. But I have the group leader's email, and her phone number. I also have good friends in the group and I like to talk to them. I'm there at almost every meeting, and when I'm there, I've got my calendar out, and I'm taking notes on what's going to be happening and when. If I have a question, I don't hesitate to call or email another member of the group.

That's how I stay in the loop.

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guys, 20 years ago we were having the same arguments about email.

 

"Oh but I hate having to check the computer! I don't even turn it on every day! Why can't Jane just call me about the playgroup meeting?! I mean what is wrong with the phone trees that we've had for the last 10 years!!!!! I prefer to get a phone call!" 

 

Remember that person who joined a group and said oh she doesn't have email or can't remember it or  gave an email address but then told you she never checks it??  Jeez that was annoying.   

 

I'm Team "Apologize to the organizer, make a dummy fb account as instructed above and just move on" 

 

 

 

dh just had a project where it was established at the beginning, communication would be via email.

he had a hard time connecting with one person.  emailed her - "don't use this email address.  you have to use ___ email address".  didn't even answer the question or acknowledge if she was doing her part.

so -he forwards the exact same message to the account to which she wants it to go.  never hears from her.   finally - Oh, I only check that account once a week.   dh was :cursing:.    . . . and no, she really didn't do much of what she was supposed to do for the project.

 

 

Those kinds of complaints really have little in common with the reason people don't want to use FB.  They do seem similar to the reasons some are claiming group emails are no good.

 

At one time, many people didn't have computers, which was a good argument for not using email as a primary method. They were expensive and people didn't need them the same way, or to check them as often.   And it still is among some groups, like the elderly or homeless.  But the reasons people don't want to use FB aren't really all that similar.

 

not only did they have to have a computer - they had to have internet.  (even more money.)   I visited my mother's cousin in the mid 90's.  they were very rural - and any kind of internet was spotty at best. the infrastructure just wasn't there.

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You are mixing up the group, and the members of it.

 

It's completely normal for a group to distribute information in multiple ways.  In your example, the IRS, the Courts, the insurance company is in the position of the leader of the group, not the position of the group member.

 

You are correct, generally, group members are not required to submit info to the group in muliple ways.  But it's completely normal for the group to distribute information to it's members in multiple ways. 

 

One, it is even more normal for organizations to make one single communication about general everyday stuff such as one meeting starting a half hour earlier on one day.  The fact that some will send multiple kinds of messages doesn't mean it's wrong not to.

 

Two, a volunteer local leader is somewhere in between an individual member (info recipient) and the big organization.  The big organization probably has a lot more resources / man hours available to spend on communications, and there are much bigger economies of scale / bigger bang for the buck if you're adding a communication method at the organization level.  Here we're talking about expecting a volunteer leader to double her communication efforts for one single beneficiary.  We're saying one person gets to tell another person "from now on, you have to call or email me every time you have a brain fart I might want to know about.  For free.  Or else." 

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Facebook really isn't just a communication method.

HUH?

 

Sure, I could use it to play games or whatever. But I use it to communicate. One can use it ONLY for groups like in the OP if they want. There is awful stuff on Facebook, but there is awful stuff everywhere. I get lots of spam emails for crap I don't want including total scams, but that doesn't make email bad. Some people abuse it, sure. And if the OP has that issue where it is an addiction issue or some other very important reason she can try communicating that to the leader. But the Facebook gremlins aren't going to eat a person up or steal their soul if they use it to plan a community picnic or whatever. 

 

It's simple enough to be on there and have zero friends, not click the ads, not play the games that collect your data, etc. Just like I screen my calls to avoid sales calls and don't make prank phone calls, etc. 

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It's what I said already - "you have to join this online group to be part of our 4-H/homeschool group/Sunday school.  You have to agree to give them certain personal information, which they use to mine data.  Also, they manipulate information given to users to influence thinking, and it's designed to be addictive.  Not interested - well, that's your choice."

 

Telling them they can set up a fake account doesn't really address the issue.

 

I think in general too, it's walking a line to tell members of these kids of organizations that they have to buy product from certain providers.  Sometimes it can be legitimate because of the nature of the product, but it tends to run close to support of particular commercial entities.

 

Seriously? If I drive down the highway I see billboards designed to manipulate me. If they drive to get to the meeting, they see ads that manipulate them. How is it different?

 

As for addictive, the communication of it is, yes. But that's what people said about telephones way back when! That their impressionable teens were spending all day and night on the phone, and it would ruin them. Or newspapers. Or whatever. 

 

As for data mining, don't put in anything you don't have to. Don't buy  anything or click on ads. Done. 

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I actually try to be easy to deal with also.  I have multiple ways to get a hold of me.  Call, text, email, write a letter, send home a flyer, post it on your website, etc etc.  There is ONE method I don't use.  I don't think using multiple methods EXCEPT one makes me difficult to deal with.  No one uses ALL methods.  That's normal. 

 

And it really has nothing to do with not showing up when you say you will, not paying back for tickets, etc.  Not using FB doesn't make a person unreliable. 

 

No, it doens't. But this may not be the group for you if you are going to get angry if you miss out on communication and not participate in the way they communicate.

 

My daughter is in a AHG group that meets at 5:30p. I'm not jumping up and down happy about that time -- its hard for me to make. But it is worth it to me to adjust my schedule to be there when they meet. 

 

Evidently last year they started at 5p so they might go back to that. If so, then I can't participate anymore. I've stepped up to lead one of the TH 1&2 groups. But I still don't get to decide when the start time is. If it is at a time that does not work for us, we will just have to step back and stop participating.

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HUH?

 

Sure, I could use it to play games or whatever. But I use it to communicate. One can use it ONLY for groups like in the OP if they want. There is awful stuff on Facebook, but there is awful stuff everywhere. I get lots of spam emails for crap I don't want including total scams, but that doesn't make email bad. Some people abuse it, sure. And if the OP has that issue where it is an addiction issue or some other very important reason she can try communicating that to the leader. But the Facebook gremlins aren't going to eat a person up or steal their soul if they use it to plan a community picnic or whatever. 

 

It's simple enough to be on there and have zero friends, not click the ads, not play the games that collect your data, etc. Just like I screen my calls to avoid sales calls and don't make prank phone calls, etc. 

except that Facebook "make their money by information mining, manipulating users through information controls, advertising, and designing the most addictive platform they can." (quote courtesy of Bluegoat)

 

I have a right to refuse to use that.  Now I clearly also have a right to not join groups that exclusively communicate through Facebook.

 

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹I think that part of the frustration here is that some people feel like Facebook is an innocuous entity and that those who refuse to use it are ridiculous and others are concerned that their true privacy, not just their name and image, are being compromised by using it.  Add to this that fact that most people with kids over 12 realize that the statement that "everyone uses Facebook, and if you don't you are just old and not caught up with the times" is laughable and feel even more resistant to join this "required" behemoth that is not really all that relevant with everyone.

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Does it receive group texts consistently? because my husband's phone receives texts. He doesn't always receive group texts -- texts sent to multiple people at once. I'm not sure what is different between the ones he gets and the one he doesn't

 

I know he doesn't get texts that have a picture in them. My sister sent both of us a text at Christmas with the picture of the receipt for his Christmas gift. He didn't get it. I did.

MMS vs SMS is why
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There is a master calendar that my son got at the beginning of the year. It lists all of the meetings, times, and even the fair dates for the summer. The only communication I would need is if something has changed, which it did tonight. Is it really too much to ask for an email or a text in those circumstances? There are only 6 families.

 

Yes, I'm going to gently say that it is. I'm saying this as a former GS leader. I explained that I communicated via FB. I would try to text if there was a last-minute change, but it was too much to rely on it, and that they should rely on FB. It can take over hours and hours of your life being a leader of this kind of group and trying to remember the minutiae of everyone's preferred method of communication. You're trying to make very different people happy all of the time. It is exhausting and overwhelming.

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except that Facebook "make their money by information mining, manipulating users through information controls, advertising, and designing the most addictive platform they can." (quote courtesy of Bluegoat)

 

I have a right to refuse to use that.  Now I clearly also have a right to not join groups that exclusively communicate through Facebook.

 

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹I think that part of the frustration here is that some people feel like Facebook is an innocuous entity and that those who refuse to use it are ridiculous and others are concerned that their true privacy, not just their name and image, are being compromised by using it.  Add to this that fact that most people with kids over 12 realize that the statement that "everyone uses Facebook, and if you don't you are just old and not caught up with the times" is laughable and feel even more resistant to join this "required" behemoth that is not really all that relevant with everyone.

 

Can I ask for clarification? If one is ONLY using it to get group announcements what is the risk, exactly? That wouldn't be inherent in email? Honestly asking. 

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But I also don't see 4-H as a public group (are they publicly funded?  I am not sure) that has to make themselves available or accessible in a certain way to all who want to join.

 

I think using facebook is stupid and I don't like it and don't use it, but I acknowledge that other people disagree and may start their own groups like 4-H or swimming club or whatever and what they do is up to them.

 

4-H is run by the agricultural cooperative extension in each state.  Usually that's part of the state flagship university.  So, it's a quasi-government entity.  They do not make any rules (at least in my state) about how groups communicate with their members except pictures and/or names cannot be shared on public spaces without written permission from families.

 

I think every single group out there must use two methods - whatever they use to send notices electronically and discussion at their meetings.  Or do organizations never mention the upcoming field trip happening this weekend when they are at the meeting?   Or does discussing things at meeting not count?  Some people seem to be saying it does, others don't seem to be taking it into account.  If someone is concerned, arrive early, go inside and talk to the leader or stay a few minutes at the end and ask.  Maybe you could even offer to help set up or clean up.  I'd prefer this than a bunch of texts or emails asking what's going on all the time.

 

I do agree a second method when there's a last minute change is reasonable.  But, not a different method for everyone.  If there is a change I send an email.  If someone doesn't check their email, there's the Facebook group.  If they don't check either, sorry there's nothing more I can do.  

 

except that Facebook "make their money by information mining, manipulating users through information controls, advertising, and designing the most addictive platform they can." (quote courtesy of Bluegoat)

 

I have a right to refuse to use that.  Now I clearly also have a right to not join groups that exclusively communicate through Facebook.

 

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹I think that part of the frustration here is that some people feel like Facebook is an innocuous entity and that those who refuse to use it are ridiculous and others are concerned that their true privacy, not just their name and image, are being compromised by using it.  Add to this that fact that most people with kids over 12 realize that the statement that "everyone uses Facebook, and if you don't you are just old and not caught up with the times" is laughable and feel even more resistant to join this "required" behemoth that is not really all that relevant with everyone.

 

And AOL, and Yahoo, and gmail, and most other email platforms that people use outside of businesses get their money buy ads that appear on the side of your screen, by selling your information, by sending you spam from their advertisers.  What's the difference?

 

I don't think everyone uses Facebook, but I think someone who is concerned about ads, and data mining, and addiction to screens better just stay off the internet.  Because I'm getting that crap from just about everyplace I go - Amazon, AOL (yes, I still have AOL), gmail, Yahoo groups, some site I have to use for swim team (can't remember what it's called, it's for sports), meet-up.  They all seem to be selling your information so you get the right pop-up ads everywhere you go.

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I don't think people are saying Yahoo is more secure or less shiestery than facebook, but that email is not a company or entity - it's a method of communication that you can use with any massive number of different companies or entities. Facebook is one company.

 

So you can have control over email that you can't have over joining Facebook, if that makes sense.

 

 

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My experience says it's absolutely not common at all for organizations to only use one single communications method.  My experience has been that I have actually never encountered an organization that ONLY uses FB. ...

 

Thinking over all my kids' activities and all the smallish volunteer organizations I've been active in, I can't think of any that distributed the same info via multiple communication methods.  Kids' rec soccer - text only.  Swim league - usually email; text was used, but not for the same exact messages.  AHG was email only until recently - they created a fb page, so now they have fb and email, but not the same info on both.  (Meaning you have to check both if you don't want to miss anything.)  Gym team - fb only.  Adoption groups - fb only.  School sports - mostly paper.  TKD - facebook and text, but not the same messages.  Horse barn - text or facebook, but not the same messages.  All of my work and grown-up nonprofit groups have been email only.

 

True, our church sends certain stuff multiple ways.  They are trying to reach very diverse groups, and these messages are for marketing more than informing active members.  That said, our new pastor is pestering us to get some sort of app on our phone that will keep us up to date on the church stuff.  :P  I will say I'm very happy that the school principal sends alerts via an app that automates both an email and a text to anyone who signs up for it.  I get to see the snow day notification at the same time I'm hitting "snooze" on my phone alarm.  But I don't expect a small volunteer organization to have that kind of technology.

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FYI my husband has a flip phone -- NOT a smart phone. When people send group texts (Such as our boy scout leader) he does not consistently get them. Some of the smartphone group texts do not go through to a "dumb" phone.  We get around it by asking her to put me on the list as well (since I also have a smartphone) so we at least get the information.But if you have someone in your list with less money, they may not have access to a smartphone and thus not get group texts sent from one.

 

Furthermore, we cannot afford to have unlimited data plans, so texts cost me for everyone I recieve which in groups are often "ok" "got it" x however many people they are.  Most people have access to e-mail and internet based groups. It is unreasonable to ask people to spend $360 on up per year for group texts to get communication.

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I don't think people are saying Yahoo is more secure or less shiestery than facebook, but that email is not a company or entity - it's a method of communication that you can use with any massive number of different companies or entities. Facebook is one company.

 

So you can have control over email that you can't have over joining Facebook, if that makes sense.

 

Ok..you mean like I can use ATT or TMobile, but still use a phone. So gmail or yahoo but still use email. But Facebook is Facebook. I get that. But one IS using gmail or yahoo or whatever, and they all do crazy stuff too. 

 

Also, again, email on it's own doesn't have the utility that Facebook groups do. No calendar, no polls, no files section, etc. For that you need an actual singular platform, either yahoo groups or Facebook or whatever app. That is the biggest reason some groups use Facebook instead of email. 

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I don't think people are saying Yahoo is more secure or less shiestery than facebook, but that email is not a company or entity - it's a method of communication that you can use with any massive number of different companies or entities. Facebook is one company.

 

So you can have control over email that you can't have over joining Facebook, if that makes sense.

 

I'm not sure I understand.  Yahoo, gmail (google), AOL are all companies.  I control what I send out through my emails, but I also control what I put on Facebook.  I also control what I see on Facebook, what other people can send me.  I can't control that on my email unless I block every single email that sends me spam, but there are new ones all the time.

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Seriously? If I drive down the highway I see billboards designed to manipulate me. If they drive to get to the meeting, they see ads that manipulate them. How is it different?

 

As for addictive, the communication of it is, yes. But that's what people said about telephones way back when! That their impressionable teens were spending all day and night on the phone, and it would ruin them. Or newspapers. Or whatever. 

 

As for data mining, don't put in anything you don't have to. Don't buy  anything or click on ads. Done. 

 

Um, but that isn't what FB is doing, at all.  It's not just showing you ads.  This is part in parcel with their data mining and that isn't really changed by your not giving them personal info. Personal info is largely irrelevant in this kind of mass algorithm based compiling of information.  And I really think it's odd to insist people don't buy anything on the internet so they can use FB to keep up with group information.  That seems extremely intrusive on the individual, way past telling them they have to subscribe to a particular corporation to get information.

 

And telephones are not at all similar to FB as far as addiction.  If you want to compare it to something, it would be like slot machines or internet gambling - things you aren't even allowed to do as minor because they are so addictive.  Around here, you can't even have video lottery terminals in the main room of a bar, they have to have their own separate space, and they can't be in other types of shops at all.  Social media are designed using the same principles.

 

Telling people that it's "just a communications device" is simply untrue.  That is not their primary purpose, it isn't how they make their money - and how they make their money is going to be what drives their actions and products and policies.

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4-H is run by the agricultural cooperative extension in each state.  Usually that's part of the state flagship university.  So, it's a quasi-government entity.  They do not make any rules (at least in my state) about how groups communicate with their members except pictures and/or names cannot be shared on public spaces without written permission from families.

 

I think every single group out there must use two methods - whatever they use to send notices electronically and discussion at their meetings.  Or do organizations never mention the upcoming field trip happening this weekend when they are at the meeting?   Or does discussing things at meeting not count?  Some people seem to be saying it does, others don't seem to be taking it into account.  If someone is concerned, arrive early, go inside and talk to the leader or stay a few minutes at the end and ask.  Maybe you could even offer to help set up or clean up.  I'd prefer this than a bunch of texts or emails asking what's going on all the time.

 

I do agree a second method when there's a last minute change is reasonable.  But, not a different method for everyone.  If there is a change I send an email.  If someone doesn't check their email, there's the Facebook group.  If they don't check either, sorry there's nothing more I can do.  

 

 

And AOL, and Yahoo, and gmail, and most other email platforms that people use outside of businesses get their money buy ads that appear on the side of your screen, by selling your information, by sending you spam from their advertisers.  What's the difference?

 

I don't think everyone uses Facebook, but I think someone who is concerned about ads, and data mining, and addiction to screens better just stay off the internet.  Because I'm getting that crap from just about everyplace I go - Amazon, AOL (yes, I still have AOL), gmail, Yahoo groups, some site I have to use for swim team (can't remember what it's called, it's for sports), meet-up.  They all seem to be selling your information so you get the right pop-up ads everywhere you go.

  Agreeing with the bolded. I'm not really looking to burden anyone or expect special treatment (anymore anyway). But I still would argue that relying SOLELY on Facebook is not good communication, volunteer or not.

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I'm not sure I understand.  Yahoo, gmail (google), AOL are all companies.  I control what I send out through my emails, but I also control what I put on Facebook.  I also control what I see on Facebook, what other people can send me.  I can't control that on my email unless I block every single email that sends me spam, but there are new ones all the time.

 

 

Right, and if you said to people that you must communicate only through yahoo email, or only through AOL, or only through google's gmail, that would be akin to saying you must communicate only through facebook.

 

 

But while I can't communicate through Facebook with someone who doesn't want to use Facebook, I can communicate through email with someone who doesn't want to use one particular company for email services - someone who doesn't like gmail, or who doesn't want ads, or who doesn't want whatever particular thing, can in fact find and pay for an email service that doesn't involve those things or those companies.

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But I also don't see 4-H as a public group (are they publicly funded?  I am not sure) that has to make themselves available or accessible in a certain way to all who want to join.

 

I think using facebook is stupid and I don't like it and don't use it, but I acknowledge that other people disagree and may start their own groups like 4-H or swimming club or whatever and what they do is up to them.

 

They aren't public, but I think they do see themselves as a community organization and a service organization.

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Ok..you mean like I can use ATT or TMobile, but still use a phone. So gmail or yahoo but still use email. But Facebook is Facebook. I get that. But one IS using gmail or yahoo or whatever, and they all do crazy stuff too. 

 

Also, again, email on it's own doesn't have the utility that Facebook groups do. No calendar, no polls, no files section, etc. For that you need an actual singular platform, either yahoo groups or Facebook or whatever app. That is the biggest reason some groups use Facebook instead of email. 

 

 

I agree that email is not as useful for group organization as facebook and I would not suggest to someone running a private group that they have to use one method or the other for organization/communication.

 

But one isn't necessarily using gmail or yahoo or whatever.  One is choosing which company to use for email services, and can easily choose one that doesn't do crazy stuff.

 

You can't choose a different Facebook provider that doesn't advertise to you, or that doesn't engage in business practices you find morally objectionable.  There's only one Facebook company :)

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Um, but that isn't what FB is doing, at all.  It's not just showing you ads.  This is part in parcel with their data mining and that isn't really changed by your not giving them personal info. Personal info is largely irrelevant in this kind of mass algorithm based compiling of information.  And I really think it's odd to insist people don't buy anything on the internet so they can use FB to keep up with group information.  That seems extremely intrusive on the individual, way past telling them they have to subscribe to a particular corporation to get information.

 

And telephones are not at all similar to FB as far as addiction.  If you want to compare it to something, it would be like slot machines or internet gambling - things you aren't even allowed to do as minor because they are so addictive.  Around here, you can't even have video lottery terminals in the main room of a bar, they have to have their own separate space, and they can't be in other types of shops at all.  Social media are designed using the same principles.

 

Telling people that it's "just a communications device" is simply untrue.  That is not their primary purpose, it isn't how they make their money - and how they make their money is going to be what drives their actions and products and policies.

 

FB is like slot machines?

 

What do you say in response to the many posters who have explained that they don't view their FB news feed, don't follow anybody except the groups they belong to, set email notifications so they don't have to log in to FB every day...?

 

Just like nobody makes you buy overpriced and unhealthy popcorn and soda at the movies - you really can pay the matinee or coupon price and not waste your money on impulsive junk - nobody makes you sign up for the full social media experience.

 

Really, it can just be a tool.

 

People need to grow up and take responsibility.

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You can't choose a different Facebook provider that doesn't advertise to you 

 

fwiw, you don't have to get facebook ads. Set up the dummy account, set up notifications to forward to an email (dummy if you want an extra barrier) and never login to fb again. 

 

Most people are not using clean browsers, not logging out of boards, and all accounts every time they shut down and flushing all cookies and internet history so you're just as vulnerable to manipulation.  And if you know how to do what I just said in the previous sentence, you can avoid all the fb crap too. 

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I don't think people are saying Yahoo is more secure or less shiestery than facebook, but that email is not a company or entity - it's a method of communication that you can use with any massive number of different companies or entities. Facebook is one company.

 

So you can have control over email that you can't have over joining Facebook, if that makes sense.

 

Yes, this.  There are all kinds of ways I can get email.  I can use a free service like Yahoo.  I can pay for it through my phone company.  I can get it through a community platform.  I can can potentially get it through a job or a university.

 

I can make choices about who I want to contract with to provide this service.

 

FB is one private company, and I have to agree to their policies, which are not benign, to use their product.

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fwiw, you don't have to get facebook ads. Set up the dummy account, set up notifications to forward to an email (dummy if you want an extra barrier) and never login to fb again. 

 

Most people are not using clean browsers, not logging out of boards, and all accounts every time they shut down and flushing all cookies and internet history so you're just as vulnerable to manipulation.  And if you know how to do what I just said in the previous sentence, you can avoid all the fb crap too. 

 

 

I have no idea, I don't use facebook for different reasons than the advertising (I don't care about having my data mined and I use adblock, which I assume would keep off facebook's ads?  Again, I don't use facebook so I am not sure how it works).  

 

 

I don't presume to know exactly why specific other people don't use facebook, but I would assume that there are some of them who don't want Facebook in particular to advertise to them or use their information or their pageviews or whatever, and while they can avoid that if the communication method is email (because they can choose an email provider with specific requirements), they can't avoid Facebook completely if the communication method is Facebook. (although I understand that they can avoid logging into facebook after the first time they sign up for the account and the group).

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FB is like slot machines?

 

What do you say in response to the many posters who have explained that they don't view their FB news feed, don't follow anybody except the groups they belong to, set email notifications so they don't have to log in to FB every day...?

 

Just like nobody makes you buy overpriced and unhealthy popcorn and soda at the movies - you really can pay the matinee or coupon price and not waste your money on impulsive junk - nobody makes you sign up for the full social media experience.

 

Really, it can just be a tool.

 

People need to grow up and take responsibility.

 

Yes, it is like that.

 

They use exactly the same methods, based on the same psychological research, as people who design gambling programs and machines.

 

You don't have to be affected by that to have a problem with it.  (Though you know some people might, actually, have a problem with it, the same way they do with gambling - but I guess that is just personal responsibility.)  People can have a problem becoming a member of an organization, and agreeing to the things FB users agree to, because they think they are socially detrimental and questionable.

 

It's weird to insist that individuals contract with morally questionable entities to be part of a group like 4-H.

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