Why are so many College Graduates still Underemployment / Underpaid?

[dereksurfs]

I've been thinking about this more after advising a young man in finding his first 'real' job since graduating over a year ago. He graduated from a well known state school with a liberal arts degree and could not find a job. The harsh reality of the job market sent him into a tail spin both psychologically and emotionally. Fortunately, he has started to climb out now after going back to school and getting some vocational training in IT.

 

While the economy has recovered quite a bit since the great recession, there are still quite a few underemployed and underpaid millennial college grads. One statistic I found stated 39% of graduates from 2014-2015 earned $25,000 or less. That's a harsh wake up call as their welcome into the real world of the post college workforce. This is especially difficult when compounded with college debt.

 

"Here’s the strange part:

The National average starting salary is about $50,000

When you view the statistics by major, the average starting salary for EVERY major is above $25,000

So here’s my new question: how can 40% of graduates be making less than $25,000? Leave a comment with your theory!" -- https://medium.com/@TheTonyFerrar/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-underemployed-and-underpaid-d203260b078f

Edited December 16, 2017 by dereksurfs

[regentrude]

One aspect is graduate school. Every graduate who enters graduate school will have a salary in the order of 20k.

60% of our physics majors go to grad school, and their salaries after graduation will look like this. It will pay off handsomely once they have finished their doctorate, but their starting salaries do not look good in the stats.

They are neither underemployed nor underpaid.

Edited December 16, 2017 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

I think it’s very difficult to talk about in such average terms. Cost of living, and therefore salaries vary drastically across country.

What percentage of all graduates are liberal arts as opposed to engineering or more jobs focused education? What schools are included? You can ask endless questions.

I think the best question to ask is what is that person you were helping is truly good at? I have interviewed CSU graduates in CA and couldn’t get them to speak coherently. I have read writing samples they submitted and couldn’t believe what I was reading. I think in some cases a lot of those kids graduate and still have few skills. In my experience kids who have some strength (writing or people skills or quantitative skills) all somehow manage to find their space. Getting the first job takes time, but I think most who end up knowing something will land on their feet.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Roadrunner

[dereksurfs]

I think it’s very difficult to talk about in such average terms. Cost of living, and therefore salaries vary drastically across country.

What percentage of all graduates are liberal arts as ppposed to engineering or more jobs focused education? What schools are included? You can ask endless questions.

I think the best question to ask is what is that person you were helping is truly good at? I have interviewed CSU graduates in CA and couldn’t get them to speak coherently. I have read writing samples they submitted and couldn’t believe what I was reading. I think in some cases a lot of those kids graduate and still have few skills. In my experience kids who have some strength (writing or people skills or quantitative skills) all somehow manage to find there space. Getting the first job takes time, but I think most who end up knowing something will land on their feet.

 

This is part of the problem I've seen. Some don't know what they are truly good at going into college, right? Ok, so maybe they take a number of electives their first two years. Then they pick a major that they find 'interesting' at least at that time. Of course they are still very young with little life experience. As the article mentioned, many never fully research the job market their major leads to. Maybe they simply enjoy the classes and somehow think it will all just come together upon graduation like manifest destiny. I don't think logic or practicality weigh as important even if considered to some degree.

 

The CSU in this case is the very well regarded CalPoly SLO. Still, that doesn't guarantee a decent job. One of my family members graduated form UCSD with a major in international business and had a heck of a time finding a decent job. She was very sharp and outgoing. Still, after several years of underemployment she eventually went back to grad school and studied to become an elementary school teacher.

Edited December 16, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Roadrunner]

Yes, it is difficult. I am very conflicted about education. One one hand, I feel education shouldn’t be just about work training (radiologists, nurses, dental hygienists, programmers). Reading classics, learning history, debating philosophy are all essential to development. Liberal arts to me is what education is all about. I am not saying that liberal arts education doesn’t produce essential skills. It does. Writing, critical thinking, those are all very useful, but those are skills of generalists. But it seems to me a lot of demand is with specific job skills, and I recognize that despite my personal thoughts on the subject, the reality dictates those practical job skills will have to be a priority.

I am not sure what the future job market will demand. The outlook seems to be grim. Big chunk of all jobs are expected to disappear with advances of technology.

I know jobs report shows strong employment gains for now, but It has been a while since I looked closely at those reports to see what quality jobs we are gaining. Are we creating jobs in low paid restaurant type businesses? Or are we creating new jobs in more highly paid sectors?

 

Hopefully my rumblings make sense.

[JanetC]

Longer (though over-formatted) analysis here:

 

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/poor-millennials/

[dereksurfs]

One aspect is graduate school. Every graduate who enters graduate school will have a salary in the order of 20k.

60% of our physics majors go to grad school, and their salaries after graduation will look like this. It will pay off handsomely once they have finished their doctorate, but their starting salaries do not look good in the stats.

They are neither underemployed nor underpaid.

 

Grad school throws a whole new dimension into this multifaceted problem, one which is different I think for current and future generations. Why? Well, I've seen the trends in many industries now looking at the bachelors degrees more like a bare minimum (maybe not even that) - similar to what an AA/AS used be. With the bar raised, graduate degrees are becoming more important to break through glass ceilings in a wider variety of professions. And this push has become so prevalent in some careers like business, that MBAs don't hold the same weight they used to. They've become somewhat diluted if not combined with some in demand niche. Add to that online graduate degree options for working professionals and this makes the basic bachelors degree even harder to market.

 

Let's face it, not every new 21/22 year old college grad is ready or financially able to attend grad school. That is a privilege for those who do and are also motivated to continue with school. Some quite frankly are burned out on school as was the young man I was advising. That was my first bit of advice. But he would have nothing to do with it... at least at this stage of his life.

 

I think about this a lot actually for our own kids. Should they really be targeting grad school more so now. I know it depends on many factors such as goals, major, etc... But it still seems more important for them in many professions than it was in the past. 

[creekland]

Fewer jobs (percentage-wise) overall - therefore fewer workers needed - therefore many employers can pay less while still requiring a college degree.

 

Then couple that with those who enter graduate school or Teach for America or Peace Corps or similar for a couple of years and earn less (but I expect those are in the roughly 20% who expect to earn less vs the 20% who don't).

 

I've seen folks with engineering or IT degrees who don't have decent people skills to keep a job FWIW.  That matters too.  One has to be a desirable employee to get (and keep) a well paying job.  The degree alone doesn't cut it.  Without decent people skills and/or talent, one tends to end up getting whatever job is desperate enough to hire pretty much anyone, and those don't always pay well.

[luuknam]

There are also people who went for an Mrs degree and never intended to get a job. If they're staying home, their income is 0. Which is a perfectly acceptable income if you *want* to stay home, especially if your spouse's income is decent. Same with people who *choose* to work part-time - $24k/year is a perfectly fine entry-level income if you work 20 hours/week. Also, if you start your own business or decide to live in your parents' basement while writing a book or w/e, your income might be sucky at first. 

 

Just throwing these out there as they might account for some percent of those 39% - not a clue what percentage though.

 

ETA: to be clear, I understand that there are graduates who are unemployed, underemployed, underpaid, etc against their will, quite possibly more than the voluntary ones. Just saying that you need to subtract the voluntary ones in order to get a 'real' number. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by luuknam

[Roadrunner]

Longer (though over-formatted) analysis here:

 

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/poor-millennials/

Now I am depressed.

[creekland]

Now I am depressed.

 

I started to watch that, but it seemed pretty graphic dependent and I quickly stopped because we are on limited data here at home.  However, I got enough of a gist to expect I know the rest - or close enough.

 

The future really isn't pretty with fewer jobs, more people to do those jobs, and basic supply and demand applying to the equation showing the salaries don't need to keep pace with inflation.

 

It's certainly not just bad for college grads.  Look at the average wages and unemployment rates for those without education too.  I don't know how many times I've posted this, but it still applies:

 

 

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

Multiply those weekly earnings by 52 to get annual median salaries for age 25 AND over.  Then factor in health insurance going up, and housing costs going up, etc, etc.

 

The wealthy in our world (and country) keep getting wealthier (and I certainly don't see that changing), but for the rest?  It's not a pretty picture.  It's not treading water.  It's sinking (for many).  Folks have been warning about the oncoming catastrophe for years.

 

There is no simple "great fix" answer.  Some countries are trying a guaranteed minimum income, but mention that to many and they immediately recoil with shouts of things like "lazy scumbags don't deserve a thing" or similar.

 

In the meantime, we do the best to try to help our offspring out - with an education (people skills included), with academics, with pieces of paper (trade certificates count), with contacts, or whatever can help.

[dereksurfs]

Yes, it is difficult. I am very conflicted about education. One one hand, I feel education shouldn’t be just about work training (radiologists, nurses, dental hygienists, programmers). Reading classics, learning history, debating philosophy are all essential to development. Liberal arts to me is what education is all about. I am not saying that liberal arts education doesn’t produce essential skills. It does. Writing, critical thinking, those are all very useful, but those are skills of generalists. But it seems to me a lot of demand is with specific job skills, and I recognize that despite my personal thoughts on the subject, the reality dictates those practical job skills will have to be a priority.

I am not sure what the future job market will demand. The outlook seems to be grim. Big chunk of all jobs are expected to disappear with advances of technology.

I know jobs report shows strong employment gains for now, but It has been a while since I looked closely at those reports to see what quality jobs we are gaining. Are we creating jobs in low paid restaurant type businesses? Or are we creating new jobs in more highly paid sectors?

 

Hopefully my rumblings make sense.

 

Roadrunner, I think times have really changed since most of us parents graduated from college and entered the work force. And they will continue to do so at an even faster pace as we become a more globalized economy. That's why its also important for us not merely to apply our older 'conventional' wisdom when advising students without considering these trends.

 

One of the biggest areas of growth I am seeing is in cross-disciplined careers. The classic example I've used is Data Science. These types of jobs require a combination of humanities and analytic skills. In addition, one must be hungry to learn modern practices, improved methodologies. Not only accept that change is occurring more rapidly but embrace it as a way of life. So, yes, humanities are very important in this new economy. But they need to be tied to something very practical such as technology. Computers are such a fundamental part of the workplace now that I think every student should be required to take a least one or two programming classes. I know Obama was pushing to bring CS into the high schools as a core subject along with more traditional sciences such as biology, etc... I would argue that more jobs of the future in the general sense will need CS skills over biology. Though these other sciences are still important.

 

Here a few great points about the changing job scene of the future from Pew Research:

 

1. Employment has been rising faster in occupations requiring more preparation. 

2. Employment and wages have increased most in occupations that require higher social or analytical skills.

3. The majority of American workers say they will need continuous training to keep up with changes in the workplace.

 

I work in IT and I constantly see the need for greater humanities skills. However, there are many in the industry, especially the aging IT workforce, that:

  * Do no play well with others

  * Do not like to write or document any of their work

  * Resist learning new things and oppose change even when for the better

This severely limits their ability to rise above their journeyman status where they basically do best when left alone.

 

By contrast we've hired liberal arts majors to assist in IT and some take the initiative to learn new disciplines. They either study on their own or take new classes which really help them to move up. The ones that did the best actually took some IT type courses and worked on related projects while in school even if  liberal arts major. Its this left brain / right brain cross-disciplined activity that I think is going to prove highly in demand in the future. Tech companies need to become more human factors oriented. And liberal arts related industries need to become more tech savvy. No longer can they rely on the old guard in doing their 'one thing' and that only. Musicians are leveraging tech through social media now to get their name recognized, creating their own websites. The same is true for artists, authors, etc...

Edited December 17, 2017 by dereksurfs

[8filltheheart]

Derek,

 

I think the original article's numbers are meaningless. Without context, those numbers don't reveal a crisis. They are just numbers. Why are their incomes less than $25000? On purpose or lack of jobs? (Less than $25,000 is around $12 something per hr for full-time employment. Are these people employed full-time? Part-time? Self-employed with a start-up? Too many unknowns.)

 

Our experience is that kids who work via co-ops, internships, research, etc during UG are not lacking employment opportunities at graduation. Students who only go to class, spend summers playing, don't focus on building their CV/resume by developing skills during school/summers tend to be underemployed or have fewer job offers.

 

For example, consider the following scenarios. A young lady earned her degree in anthropology and is now working as a waitress. Summers were spent at the beach. She did nothing but go to class. She had no work experience, no applicable job skills, no real references, etc bc she was just a student sitting in a classroom and outside of class hung out with friends and enjoyed her social life. Compare that to another student in the same dept at the same school. This student assisted a professor with research during the school yr. The professor knew of local archeological research and digs. The student made contact with those researchers and spent the summer doing work with them. During the school yr that led to volunteering at the local museum on top of class and assisting the professor on campus. At graduation, this student had a job offer from a local historical society doing research on recently discovered papers from storage that no one had record of and they were unsure exactly what they had uncovered. That research ended up leading to multiple other job offers.

 

Students cannot just go to class and expect to be employable without additional effort. Kids who make the most of the opportunities on campus and summers are more employable, regardless of the degree. "A" students will typically have more opportunities than "C" students, etc. Some degrees are easier to find jobs than others. Kids need to know upfront what they should expect and how to make themselves marketable upon graduation.

 

Fwiw, one question I would always recommend asking is "what are the students who graduated from your dept doing now?" How a dept head or representative answers that question will reveal a lot. We have had experiences that made us run in the other direction!!! I would never send my kids to a school without interviewing the dept. (if you want to read about a dept visit that had us running from campus, this is an example: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/493481-well-not-what-i-expected-is-a-fairly-accurate-summation/ )

[madteaparty]

I don't think it's liberal arts degrees versus all the rest. Last person my DH hired was a music major (from a very well known program)--this is in finance.

I've been talking to my English prof friends and in their view things are beyond grim. They don't think getting a PhD to teach is a valid back up option for DS. They also tell me it's a 9 year PhD (I don't fully understand this) so perhaps what regentrude isnsaying re grad school salaries plays even more here.

DH and I are seeing some contraction at our respective fields (law and finance). The first year hiring classes just aren't what they were even 10 yrs ago. And this is harder to quantify, but even once you are in, it's extremely difficult to move further up and talent just has little to do with it. It's like everyone is hunkered down protecting their little turf at all costs. It's the same polarization and hollowing out we see in other areas of our society.

Anyway he used to say our generation was screwed (we started our careers in the middle of the crisis), but our kids will have it worse. they'll have to settle for a lot less and get meaning from other sources besides things like jobs and careers. I don't think this is so bad.

Edited December 17, 2017 by madteaparty

[MarkT]

 

I think the original article's numbers are meaningless. Without context, those numbers don't reveal a crisis. They are just numbers. Why are their incomes less than $25000? On purpose or lack of jobs? (Less than $25,000 is around $12 something per hr for full-time employment. Are these people employed full-time? Part-time? Self-employed with a start-up? Too many unknowns.)

 

I think our local Walmart pays close to that for starting overnight shelf stockers these days with some benefits.

[Lanny]

OP thanks for starting an interesting thread.  I haven't read all of the responses yet, but found post #3 by RoadRunner, and others, quite interesting.  College or university graduates who cannot speak or write coherently? IMO in Middle School, if not before, those skills should have been taught and from then on...    Liberal Arts and other "interesting" majors are never among the highest paid graduates, or the most sought after. Usually, an employer needs someone who knows how to produce something for their company.

 

In one company I worked for as an Engineer, I shared an office (a large room) with two (2) people who had degrees in Music. Both of them went back and got an M.S. in Math.  In that example, there is, apparently, a close relationship, between Music and Math, so that worked out for them and they were working as Software Engineers with me.  

 

Many of the people with a degree in "Liberal Arts" or some other "interesting" Major would make far more money, if they learned a Trade, instead of going to a College or a University, but I doubt they have any interest in doing that kind of work.

 

When I was young, I had a girlfriend who had a Bachelors degree in Psychology from a well ranked university. She could also type 15 words a minute and didn't want to work as a Secretary. She was an Airline Hostess (later known as Flight Attendant).  

[madteaparty]

I think our local Walmart pays close to that for starting overnight shelf stockers these days with some benefits.

I was pumping gas last night and local convenience store advertised 11.5-13 per hour rates. I can't tell if these are full time jobs though.

[MarkT]

In one company I worked for as an Engineer, I shared an office (a large room) with two (2) people who had degrees in Music. Both of them went back and got an M.S. in Math.  In that example, there is, apparently, a close relationship, between Music and Math, so that worked out for them and they were working as Software Engineers with me.  

 

[TANGENT]

I own this

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/how-music-and-mathematics-relate.html

I have watched about half of it but really like it so far.

 

[ I never learned enough music growing up because as child #5 my parents did not have the time nor money for my lessons that some of my older siblings received

(and I have little natural musical talent - that I learned later on - so probably a good choice on their part)]

 

I listen to and enjoy music each day.

 

When asked 

"What instrument do you play?"

ans: I play the radio.

[regentrude]

Liberal Arts and other "interesting" majors are never among the highest paid graduates, or the most sought after. Usually, an employer needs someone who knows how to produce something for their company.

...

 

Many of the people with a degree in "Liberal Arts" or some other "interesting" Major would make far more money, if they learned a Trade, instead of going to a College or a University, but I doubt they have any interest in doing that kind of work.

 

For many people, the amount of money they make is not the deciding factor for the path they take.

Thank goodness - or we would have no teachers, artists, etc

 

ETA: I would make "far more money" with my degree had I chosen to go into industry. FAR, far more.

Edited December 17, 2017 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

For many people, the amount of money they make is not the deciding factor for the path they take.

Thank goodness - or we would have no teachers, artists, etc

 

ETA: I would make "far more money" with my degree had I chosen to go into industry. FAR, far more.

Yes!

 

I want to add that it’s also hard to steer kids into things they aren’t interested in. My children have no interest in computer science, no matter how much sense it might make.

The National average starting salary is about $50,000

When you view the statistics by major, the average starting salary for EVERY major is above $25,000

So here’s my new question: how can 40% of graduates be making less than $25,000? 

 

If you are just interested in the statistics, as I try to teach, the average says nothing about the distribution.   If you believe these numbers are correct and are measuring the same thing, then there just is a wide range of salaries. Costs of living vary widely across the country, so that's not so surprising. Indeed, 99% of graduates could be making < $25k, and the average salary could still be twice that, if the peak salaries were particularly high.  

 

Or, maybe these numbers aren't correct, or aren't consistent with each other.  Digger deeper, I see that the national average starting salary comes from one source (from the placement departments of many colleges), and the 40% statistic comes from a completely different survey from Accenture, using a completely different methodology (online survey of recent grads).  I'm not sure how much to trust on online survey of this nature.  It is completely unclear who either study considers a new graduate in the workplace. As brought up above, in some salary surveys, students who immediately go on to graduate work aren't counted as having started their first jobs.

 

My theory is that the two surveys are measuring different things.

[Wheres Toto]

My oldest has been working retail for the past year since she graduated, while she was waiting to go back to grad school.   A few months ago she was made a manager and she makes around $25,000.  They know she is going back to school (in January!) and they will have her continue working there during school.

 

We live in a very HCOL area, but it does mean that most retail jobs pay more than minimum wage even for entry level.

[MarkT]

 

The CSU in this case is the very well regarded CalPoly SLO. Still, that doesn't guarantee a decent job. One of my family members graduated form UCSD with a major in international business and had a heck of a time finding a decent job. She was very sharp and outgoing. Still, after several years of underemployment she eventually went back to grad school and studied to become an elementary school teacher.

Boy that's a sad commentary on that major from an overall highly rated school.

I would assume that one majors in International Business to be employed in a business with some multi-national aspects and not just for the "experience".

[regentrude]

 One of my family members graduated form UCSD with a major in international business and had a heck of a time finding a decent job. She was very sharp and outgoing. Still, after several years of underemployment she eventually went back to grad school and studied to become an elementary school teacher.

 

To evaluate what this anecdote actually means, we need more information about this student's resume.

What major related career building activities did the student pursue while in college? Was she involved in relevant student organizations, founded a startup, volunteered, did coops and summer internships, held a job?

What qualifications besides the degree does she possess? Is she fluent in at least two languages other than English? Is she fluent in an exotic language where there is high demand and low supply?

How extensively did she network while in college and while searching for jobs? 

 

I see many students involved in activities beyond the mere coursework. They are working on design teams and competitions. They spend their summers on internships or major related jobs, or take a semester coop. This leads either directly to connections with prospective employers, or enhances their resume by giving them experience, and it makes them standout among other students. I am pretty sure employers like to see evidence of strong initiative, management and  communication skills and prefer students with those and look beyond just the GPA.

Edited December 17, 2017 by regentrude

[SamanthaCarter]

I've been thinking about this more after advising a young man in finding his first 'real' job since graduating over a year ago. He graduated from a well known state school with a liberal arts degree and could not find a job. The harsh reality of the job market sent him into a tail spin both psychologically and emotionally. Fortunately, he has started to climb out now after going back to school and getting some vocational training in IT.

 

While the economy has recovered quite a bit since the great recession, there are still quite a few underemployed and underpaid millennial college grads. One statistic I found stated 39% of graduates from 2014-2015 earned $25,000 or less. That's a harsh wake up call as their welcome into the real world of the post college workforce. This is especially difficult when compounded with college debt.

 

"Here’s the strange part:

The National average starting salary is about $50,000

When you view the statistics by major, the average starting salary for EVERY major is above $25,000

So here’s my new question: how can 40% of graduates be making less than $25,000? Leave a comment with your theory!" -- https://medium.com/@TheTonyFerrar/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-underemployed-and-underpaid-d203260b078f

Don’t conflate average with median. When the bottom is zero and the top undefined, average will be greater than median. I know you know that, just reminding.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Penelope]

There are also people who went for an Mrs degree and never intended to get a job. If they're staying home, their income is 0. Which is a perfectly acceptable income if you *want* to stay home, especially if your spouse's income is decent. Same with people who *choose* to work part-time - $24k/year is a perfectly fine entry-level income if you work 20 hours/week. Also, if you start your own business or decide to live in your parents' basement while writing a book or w/e, your income might be sucky at first.

 

Just throwing these out there as they might account for some percent of those 39% - not a clue what percentage though.

 

ETA: to be clear, I understand that there are graduates who are unemployed, underemployed, underpaid, etc against their will, quite possibly more than the voluntary ones. Just saying that you need to subtract the voluntary ones in order to get a 'real' number.

I agree that voluntary unemployment or underemployment needs to be accounted for.

 

I think, though, that the percentage of women being voluntarily unemployed or underemployed due to marriage and family must be very small in the years immediately after college. The average age of marriage is a lot higher than it used to be for the college-educated, higher for men than women, and childbearing among educated women generally isn’t happening at 21. I don’t think many women anymore are meeting their spouse in college, graduating, but never entering the work force or being underemployed by choice at the start due to marital status, but it would be interesting to see those numbers.

[8filltheheart]

I agree that voluntary unemployment or underemployment needs to be accounted for.

 

I think, though, that the percentage of women being voluntarily unemployed or underemployed due to marriage and family must be very small in the years immediately after college. The average age of marriage is a lot higher than it used to be for the college-educated, higher for men than women, and childbearing among educated women generally isn’t happening at 21. I don’t think many women anymore are meeting their spouse in college, graduating, but never entering the work force or being underemployed by choice at the start due to marital status, but it would be interesting to see those numbers.

My dil started staying at home as soon as ds graduated. (They were married during college.)

 

Fwiw, it is hard for me to imagine kids with college degrees making less than $25,000 unless by choice. My ds who has no degree who works at Goodwill makes about a $1 above minimum wage but is employed full-time. But goodness, my Dd with a 2 yr degree makes over well 4 times minimum wage/hr employed full-time.

 

Those numbers seem skewed to me.

Edited December 17, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[MarkT]

To evaluate what this anecdote actually means, we need more information about this student's resume.

What major related career building activities did the student pursue while in college? Was she involved in relevant student organizations, founded a startup, volunteered, did coops and summer internships, held a job?

What qualifications besides the degree does she possess? Is she fluent in at least two languages other than English? Is she fluent in an exotic language where there is high demand and low supply?

How extensively did she network while in college and while searching for jobs? 

 

I don't necessarily agree with all this - in the past I was quite involved in hiring Engineers for our company. Not everyone has opportunities for many of these items listed.

 

The things I focused on for college grads with no relevant experience:

1)  Upper level course-work,  was it challenging and could the candidate tell me what they liked or disliked about class X (especially project classes)

2)  Enthusiasm in the interview for the type of work for the positions we were trying to fill -  no pulse no offer !

 

Most of my hire recommendations that were eventually hired turned out to be quite successful. 

I trust my gut. 

 

Derek did say that the candidate had some qualities.

Of course "business" hires may be totally different - I did not interview those type folks.

[regentrude]

The things I focused on for college grads with no relevant experience:

1)  Upper level course-work,  was it challenging and could the candidate tell me what they liked or disliked about class X (especially project classes)

2)  Enthusiasm in the interview for the type of work for the positions we were trying to fill -  no pulse no offer !

 

Just curious: what percentage of your applicants had no relevant experience whatsoever? (i.e. neither paid or unpaid work or activities in their field or related area)

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

My dil started staying at home as soon as ds graduated. (They were married during college.)

 

Fwiw, it is hard for me to imagine kids with college degrees making less than $25,000 unless by choice. My ds who has no degree who works at Goodwill makes about a $1 above minimum wage but is employed full-time. But goodness, my Dd with a 2 yr degree makes over well 4 times minimum wage/hr employed full-time.

 

Those numbers seem skewed to me.

I don't really get it either. My 17yo waits tables at an inexpensive chain restaurant and would make more than $25,000 if he was full time. My 19 yo has worked two different warehouse jobs over summers that would pay over $30,000 (before OT which is readily available) with health insurance and retirement benefits. These are teens with no skills in a low cost of living area. So I don't understand these numbers. I guess what could be happening is that someone with a degree might rather take an extremely low paying job that felt more prestigious (like part time at a museum?) than to work in a restaurant or warehouse?

[MarkT]

Longer (though over-formatted) analysis here:

 

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/poor-millennials/

interesting quote:

 

There are millions of Scotts in the modern economy. “A lot of workers were just 18 at the wrong time,” says William Spriggs, an economics professor at Howard University and an assistant secretary for policy at the Department of Labor in the Obama administration. “Employers didn’t say, ‘Oops, we missed a generation. In 2008 we weren’t hiring graduates, let’s hire all the people we passed over.’ No, they hired the class of 2012.”

 

later on

 

But the blame doesn’t only fall on companies. Trade groups have responded to the dwindling number of secure jobs by digging a moat around the few that are left. Over the last 30 years, they’ve successfully lobbied state governments to require occupational licenses for dozens of jobs that never used to need them. It makes sense: The harder it is to become a plumber, the fewer plumbers there will be and the more each of them can charge. Nearly a third of American workers now need some kind of state license to do their jobs, compared to less than 5 percent in 1950. In most other developed countries, you don’t need official permission to cut hair or pour drinks. Here, those jobs can require up to $20,000 in schooling and 2,100 hours of instruction and unpaid practice.

 

oh yeah who would hire a plumber these days unless it was a major job - you would do it yourself - barter with a friend - or hire a handyman

 

[MarkT]

Just curious: what percentage of your applicants had no relevant experience whatsoever? (i.e. neither paid or unpaid work or activities in their field or related area)

truly relevant would be maybe 25% of the "final" screened candidates

[madteaparty]

interesting quote:

 

There are millions of Scotts in the modern economy. “A lot of workers were just 18 at the wrong time,†says William Spriggs, an economics professor at Howard University and an assistant secretary for policy at the Department of Labor in the Obama administration. “Employers didn’t say, ‘Oops, we missed a generation. In 2008 we weren’t hiring graduates, let’s hire all the people we passed over.’ No, they hired the class of 2012.â€

This is exactly what my DH is saying in my post above.

And in a different field, the English prof friends say about newly minted PhD have dismal but perhaps slightly better odds than an "aged" PhD (because, why haven't you landed somewhere already? Oh, here's a shiny new class).

Edited December 17, 2017 by madteaparty

[luuknam]

For many people, the amount of money they make is not the deciding factor for the path they take.

Thank goodness - or we would have no teachers, artists, etc

 

ETA: I would make "far more money" with my degree had I chosen to go into industry. FAR, far more.

 

But, if everyone took the job in industry because it paid more, industry jobs would probably start to pay slightly less (because of increased supply), and professor jobs would have to start to pay more (because of decreased supply). Likewise for teachers - if they all got jobs elsewhere that pay more, then schools would have to start paying teachers more. Because realistically, maybe they could work things out with slightly fewer professors/teachers, but they can't just get by with 1/10th the number or w/e.

 

I think, though, that the percentage of women being voluntarily unemployed or underemployed due to marriage and family must be very small in the years immediately after college. The average age of marriage is a lot higher than it used to be for the college-educated, higher for men than women, and childbearing among educated women generally isn’t happening at 21. 

 

 

Right. But, many people don't graduate at 21, and it's been a few years since 2014 grads and a couple of years since 2015 grads graduated. So, they could've worked for a few years and then quit because pregnant or w/e. The average age of having a first baby in the US is lower than the average age for first marriage (I'm not sure how this works out for college grads though). Plus, it might be regional. Either way, I was just throwing it out there as a factor among many other factors - I don't have a clue about percentages either. But a few percent making less for this reason, and a few percent because they're grad students, and a few percent because they're just starting a business, and a few percent because of yet something else voluntary could easily cut that 39% down to a lot lower percentage. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by luuknam

[Bootsie]

The statistic regarding graduates who made less than $25,000 per year come from an online survey of just over 1000 graduates.  There is no indication that there was anything done to control from sample bias.

 

I would not draw too many conclusions from what about 400 recent graduates self-report on an online survey regarding making less than $25,000 per year.  Many of the recent graduate I know who are gainfully employed in their career field do not have the time (or inclination) to be responding to these type of online surveys.  

[luuknam]

I don't really get it either. My 17yo waits tables at an inexpensive chain restaurant and would make more than $25,000 if he was full time. My 19 yo has worked two different warehouse jobs over summers that would pay over $30,000 (before OT which is readily available) with health insurance and retirement benefits. These are teens with no skills in a low cost of living area. So I don't understand these numbers. I guess what could be happening is that someone with a degree might rather take an extremely low paying job that felt more prestigious (like part time at a museum?) than to work in a restaurant or warehouse?

 

 

I don't think it's just about prestige. For example, when I was taking library science classes, there were people who took very low-paying jobs in libraries just to have relevant work experience/a foot in the door. Making under $10/hour being the director of a tiny rural library is better for your resume than working in a restaurant. Making under $10/hour as a library page in a big system is probably more useful than working in a restaurant as well. Now, realistically, getting a job in a bookstore or video store or w/e might pay more and still be relevant, but one of the problems is that some people are too rigid in their thinking and don't think about how taking a job in a video store would look just fine on their resume (no clue about percentages). 

 

FWIW, library page makes $9.25/hour here. Senior page makes $9.75/hour (you might get to supervise other pages if you're a senior page, according to the job description). Yes, you could get more money working at Taco Bell or waiting tables or w/e, but those jobs are much more stressful. The last time I worked in a factory (2008) I made $8/hour, which was more than most people working in that factory (this was through Manpower, which had a "name your price" thing going on - I put $8, and well, they apparently needed enough bodies to be willing to pay me $8, but the people who put $7 got $7... of course, the minimum wage back then was $5-something, and, putting too high a number would likely mean you wouldn't get called... tricky).

[Penelope]

I don't really get it either. My 17yo waits tables at an inexpensive chain restaurant and would make more than $25,000 if he was full time. My 19 yo has worked two different warehouse jobs over summers that would pay over $30,000 (before OT which is readily available) with health insurance and retirement benefits. These are teens with no skills in a low cost of living area. So I don't understand these numbers. I guess what could be happening is that someone with a degree might rather take an extremely low paying job that felt more prestigious (like part time at a museum?) than to work in a restaurant or warehouse?

Maybe some of it is regional. Some of what I have seen is young college graduates who don’t obtain a job immediately ending up back at home with parents for a time. They are then limited to jobs in their area while they search for the better jobs, jobs that would require their degree, a little farther afield.

[Bootsie]

I know of a number of college students who will end up in this situation--

 

in fact DD probably will be in this situation next year.  She thought she would go to grad school once she graduates in May--but is now considering delaying that and being an au pair for a year.  

 

I have a student who will fall into that category--he is taking a job in the finance industry that pays commission--his first year couple of years will be a low salary, but he will have great earning potential.

 

The student who graduates after 7 years at the university with a 2.0 GPS in "university studies"--a major created by the university for students who don't meet minimum GPA requirements in any major they have attempted, could be in this situation.

 

I know of students who, upon graduating from UT, don't want to leave Austin and will pump gasoline rather than leaving town and getting a job in their major.

[creekland]

The statistic regarding graduates who made less than $25,000 per year come from an online survey of just over 1000 graduates.  There is no indication that there was anything done to control from sample bias.

 

I would not draw too many conclusions from what about 400 recent graduates self-report on an online survey regarding making less than $25,000 per year.  Many of the recent graduate I know who are gainfully employed in their career field do not have the time (or inclination) to be responding to these type of online surveys.  

 

Ditto.  The college grads I know IRL have mostly managed to find jobs they tell me they like whether that's using their degree or just the piece of paper.  The few who haven't don't surprise me (mainly due to people skills).  I suspect there's a high percentage of those few trying to complain anywhere and everywhere about it rather than assessing themselves (or having a professional do so) and working on fixing that.

[JanetC]

Maybe some of it is regional. Some of what I have seen is young college graduates who don’t obtain a job immediately ending up back at home with parents for a time. They are then limited to jobs in their area while they search for the better jobs, jobs that would require their degree, a little farther afield.

Once you take that under-matched job, you are tainted by it in your next job search. The dude pumping gas because he doesn't want to leave Austin or because he had to move back home to a middle-of-nowhere town or for any other reason will have "gas station attendant" as the top job on his resume, and that doesn't look great when trying to start a professional career.

 

The tax law changes (last I heard moving expenses to get a new job are no longer deductible) are going to further trap workers where there are no jobs.

[dereksurfs]

I've been out with family all day. There are lots of interesting posts regarding the original question. Yes, I'm sure there are more formal studies with larger population samples and associated statistics on the topic of underemployment and low wages. Regardless of the exact percentages, there are economic trends which are important to be aware of and consider. Here's another set of numbers from the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics showing related trends:

 

 

I think this something to be aware of as we guide students going out into the workplace. Of course there will always be cases where students 'choose' to work at a lower wage for a variety of reasons. But I don't think those same reasons have changed much over the years. Some will join the Peace Corp, get married, have babies, work a low wage job temporarily before going to grad school, etc... Those aren't the kinds of cases I'm observing. Most of those are obvious and common in terms of choices. Rather, I'm referring to those who are actually trying to find a decent job upon graduation and are having a harder time doing so.

 

I fully agree that things like internships help and I encourage students to get as much 'practical' experience as possible while in college. However, there have always been graduates who don't get that much experience for whatever reason. And then there are those who have to an extent. But the internships didn't lead to a job. It happens. Many things are common to 'all' generations. The things I'm referring to are the changes in the workplace and economy including new challenges when landing one's first good job. I think it would be a bit naive to think things have always been the same economically and that there won't be new challenges for current and future graduating classes. That's the part that interests me.

 

From the Education Advisory Board: 3 reasons college grads are struggling to find jobs—even in a better economy.

1. Companies don't recruit on campus the way they used to

2. The skills gap is wider than ever

3. The economy is changing faster than people can

-- https://www.eab.com/daily-briefing/2017/03/14/3-reasons-college-grads-are-struggling-to-find-jobs-even-in-a-better-economy

Edited December 17, 2017 by dereksurfs

[creekland]

 

Here's another set of numbers from the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics showing related trends:

 

 

 

-- https://www.eab.com/daily-briefing/2017/03/14/3-reasons-college-grads-are-struggling-to-find-jobs-even-in-a-better-economy

 

 

Maybe my mind isn't reading things correctly this evening, but I don't see this data set showing anything getting terribly bad over the past 25+ years.  If anything, it's improving.  Perhaps there are 2-3 more recent grads (per 100) with bad jobs now than there were in 1990, but there are also quite a few less (10+ for both recent grads and just grads) in non-college jobs and those don't appear in the low wages category.  This seems to imply many are in good college jobs (or not looking to be employed).

 

Am I missing something?  Maybe I am.  My brain tends to turn off when the sun goes down.  

[dereksurfs]

Maybe my mind isn't reading things correctly this evening, but I don't see this data set showing anything getting terribly bad over the past 25+ years.  If anything, it's improving.  Perhaps there are 2-3 more recent grads (per 100) with bad jobs now than there were in 1990, but there are also quite a few less (10+ for both recent grads and just grads) in non-college jobs and those don't appear in the low wages category.  This seems to imply many are in good college jobs (or not looking to be employed).

 

Am I missing something?  Maybe I am.  My brain tends to turn off when the sun goes down.  

 

Sorry, I probably should have shared the link. It's easier to see when scrolling the chart and then reading the description provided. 

 https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/college-labor-market/college-labor-market_underemployment_jobtypes.html

 

Basically, it's showing that low wage jobs (< $25k) have increased from 8.6% to 13% (peaked at 15% in 2010) for recent college graduates. 

 

In addition, good, non-college degree required jobs (>$45k) have decreased from 47.8% to 35% for these same recent graduates.

 

So, recent college grads are being squeezed from both sides of the spectrum financially when entering the workplace. In addition, inflation compounds the wage gap. That is, unless they've adjusted for it. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Roadrunner]

For many jobs, the market is now global. Companies can find talent worldwide. I think pressure on earnings will continue since equal talent is available for lesser pay.

Computer jobs are very vulnerable to this.

[dereksurfs]

For many jobs, the market is now global. Companies can find talent worldwide. I think pressure on earnings will continue since equal talent is available for lesser pay.

Computer jobs are very vulnerable to this.

 

That's why its even more important to specialize if going into IT. Simply aiming for a generalist job as a programmer will become more difficult. That's why its good to get cross-trained in other areas. This included industry specific niches or in specializations across industries such as cyber security, robotics, autonomous systems, data science, human factors, R&D, DBA, etc... There are aspects of US companies' mission critical assets and intellectual property that will remain state side.

 

Offshoring more generic technical positions has been a problem for quite some time now.

Basically, it's showing that low wage jobs (< $25k) have increased from 8.6% to 13% (peaked at 15% in 2010) for recent college graduates. 

 

Forgive my aged brain, but I'm still not understanding what this is a percentage of?  

 

Is this one line claiming that of all the low wage jobs in the US economy, 13% are now held by recent college graduates?  Without knowing how many total (or relative) low wages jobs there are in the economy, seems like this percentage doesn't mean much.

[Bootsie]

What exactly this chart is measuring is difficult to decipher.  I think it is supposed to be the percent of recent college graduates who are in low wage jobs (<$25K).  I have looked at the source data and it still isn't very clear.  However, the source data has the 25th percentile salary for recent college graduates slightly above $30,000.  (which would seem consistent with interpreting this as the bottom 13% are earning <$25K.)

 

One thing that isn't clear, that would have a large impact on the interpretation is if the $25K figure is adjusted for inflation.  One of the Excel sheets has a notation about CPI, but I could not see where it was used.  

[dereksurfs]

Forgive my aged brain, but I'm still not understanding what this is a percentage of?  

 

Is this one line claiming that of all the low wage jobs in the US economy, 13% are now held by recent college graduates?  Without knowing how many total (or relative) low wages jobs there are in the economy, seems like this percentage doesn't mean much.

 

No, the percentage represents the portion (share) of the college graduates working low wage jobs: in this case recent college graduates. So, 13% of recent graduates are working low wage jobs. That number is up from 8.6% of that same group over time.

 

The title helps clarify this for me - "Share of Underemployed Graduates in Good Non-College and Low-Wage Jobs."

[dereksurfs]

What exactly this chart is measuring is difficult to decipher.  I think it is supposed to be the percent of recent college graduates who are in low wage jobs (<$25K).  I have looked at the source data and it still isn't very clear.  However, the source data has the 25th percentile salary for recent college graduates slightly above $30,000.  (which would seem consistent with interpreting this as the bottom 13% are earning <$25K.)

 

One thing that isn't clear, that would have a large impact on the interpretation is if the $25K figure is adjusted for inflation.  One of the Excel sheets has a notation about CPI, but I could not see where it was used.  

 

Yes, I was wondering that myself. Its hard to imagine 'not' adjusting for inflation since the value of a dollar was so much different in 1990 than it is today. 

 

Another large factor to consider is the relative value of a dollar in relation to cost of education in America then vs. now. Student debt has definitely ballooned which impacts the recent college grad's net take home pay. Six figure debt has become all too common. There are many articles discussing what its like to be living under six figure debt as a young grad. http://thefinancialdiet.com/6-people-really-like-live-six-figures-student-debt/

[Roadrunner]

That's why its even more important to specialize if going into IT. Simply aiming for a generalist job as a programmer will become more difficult. That's why its good to get cross-trained in other areas. This included industry specific niches or in specializations across industries such as cyber security, robotics, autonomous systems, data science, human factors, R&D, DBA, etc... There are aspects of US companies' mission critical assets and intellectual property that will remain state side.

 

Offshoring more generic technical positions has been a problem for quite some time now.

Yes, for kids who are interested in working for government contracts in computer science this could be the option. This is a very small chunk of the overall economy.

 

I can’t imagine any scenario that could make my children interested in such a job though. I have very different children. :)