WWYD if you saw someone exhibiting predatory grooming behavior?

[Corraleno]

1.  I come from a church tradition where kids or teens aren't necessarily segregated from adults so I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a church having activities that are only suitable for adults.

One of my problems with church is that teens and even preteens are treated as children. As long as it’s not something like a marriage conference, I prefer teens and preteens participate in adult activities.

This is what I don't understand about the situation.  Unless the adult program has to do with material inappropriate for children, what's the problem with children being invited to join?    It's not just one child (your daughter), right?

I don’t get the concern about including tweens/teens in “adult†church activities (what makes them suitable only for grown-ups?) and don’t think that is a warning sign of anything. Singling out your DD and presuming to take her to task over her dress, though, is absolutely not appropriate and needs to be addressed.

 

 

I think her concern was that children's programs usually have significant safety measures in place, such as a rule that two adults have to be in the room at all times, children are dropped off and returned to their parents immediately after the activity, no adult should ever being alone with an unrelated child etc. Inviting preteen children into a previously adult-only activity may mean that none of those measures are in place, which could make it easier for a predatory adult to be alone with a child (e.g. asking her to stay after the activity to discuss something, or to help put away chairs, or whatever). It can also make children feel "special" and more grown up to be included in an activity that was previously open only to adults, especially if only a few of them participate, and that can make it easier for a predator to normalize an adult-child relationship in the eyes of the child. 

 

Also, Aura refers to her daughter as a "tween," which usually means 10-12 years old. So we are talking about a man who felt it necessary to tell a 10-12 year old girl that her clothing was sexually immodest. The very fact that he was associating a CHILD with sexual immodesty suggests (to me) that there is something wrong with this guy. He should not even be thinking about that, let alone pulling a child aside, without her parents, to admonish her for immodesty. I find that seriously creepy.  :ack2:

[trulycrabby]

 

 

I think her concern was that children's programs usually have significant safety measures in place, such as a rule that two adults have to be in the room at all times, children are dropped off and returned to their parents immediately after the activity, no adult should ever being alone with an unrelated child etc. Inviting preteen children into a previously adult-only activity may mean that none of those measures are in place, which could make it easier for a predatory adult to be alone with a child (e.g. asking her to stay after the activity to discuss something, or to help put away chairs, or whatever). It can also make children feel "special" and more grown up to be included in an activity that was previously open only to adults, especially if only a few of them participate, and that can make it easier for a predator to normalize an adult-child relationship in the eyes of the child.

 

Also, Aura refers to her daughter as a "tween," which usually means 10-12 years old. So we are talking about a man who felt it necessary to tell a 10-12 year old girl that her clothing was sexually immodest. The very fact that he was associating a CHILD with sexual immodesty suggests (to me) that there is something wrong with this guy. He should not even be thinking about that, let alone pulling a child aside, without her parents, to admonish her for immodesty. I find that seriously creepy. :ack2:

Wow, you summed it up very well! Great response!

[Aura]

 

 

I think her concern was that children's programs usually have significant safety measures in place, such as a rule that two adults have to be in the room at all times, children are dropped off and returned to their parents immediately after the activity, no adult should ever being alone with an unrelated child etc. Inviting preteen children into a previously adult-only activity may mean that none of those measures are in place, which could make it easier for a predatory adult to be alone with a child (e.g. asking her to stay after the activity to discuss something, or to help put away chairs, or whatever). It can also make children feel "special" and more grown up to be included in an activity that was previously open only to adults, especially if only a few of them participate, and that can make it easier for a predator to normalize an adult-child relationship in the eyes of the child. 

 

Also, Aura refers to her daughter as a "tween," which usually means 10-12 years old. So we are talking about a man who felt it necessary to tell a 10-12 year old girl that her clothing was sexually immodest. The very fact that he was associating a CHILD with sexual immodesty suggests (to me) that there is something wrong with this guy. He should not even be thinking about that, let alone pulling a child aside, without her parents, to admonish her for immodesty. I find that seriously creepy.  :ack2:

Yes, exactly! You nailed it!

[marbel]

 

I think her concern was that children's programs usually have significant safety measures in place, such as a rule that two adults have to be in the room at all times, 

 

<snip>

 

OK, gotcha, weird that that never occurred to me as I am one of the people at my church who enforces the child safety procedures. I was picturing my own situation which is that if kids were in an adult activity, their parents (one or both) would be there as well, so no supervision needed.  

[MedicMom]

OK, gotcha, weird that that never occurred to me as I am one of the people at my church who enforces the child safety procedures. I was picturing my own situation which is that if kids were in an adult activity, their parents (one or both) would be there as well, so no supervision needed.

But if it’s an adult activity, wouldn’t there be many adults present?

The church my kids go to often has kids present at adult activities, but their two deep rule doesn’t apply there—because there are many adults, and generally at least one parent, present. They don’t have pick up or drop off procedures, except in the infant nursery, so those wouldn’t apply anyway.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Aura, based on your earlier posts, I was confused and not totally seeing where your concern was coming from (though the modestly/clothing thing alone would have me running, blech). But your later explanation was extremely clear, and I absolutely see what you're saying now. Yes, my radar would be screaming, and I wouldn't allow my child to be part of whatever that is. 

 

As to whether to say anything, if it were me, I would definitely say something. But I'm not exactly known for my reticence :lol: In your situation, given that it's your DH's church and you don't generally attend, I think I would leave it up to him about whether or not he wanted to make waves for other people's safety. For my own kids, though, I would take a stand on my DD/kids not participating with whatever that program was, and I'd make sure my concerns would be communicated to DH LOUD AND CLEAR about what kinds of messages on modesty etc. I would accept being communicated to my children. I do consider that a hill to die on. 

 

:grouphug:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

But if it’s an adult activity, wouldn’t there be many adults present?

The church my kids go to often has kids present at adult activities, but their two deep rule doesn’t apply there—because there are many adults, and generally at least one parent, present. They don’t have pick up or drop off procedures, except in the infant nursery, so those wouldn’t apply anyway.

 

Aren't the adults "in charge" in these kinds of environments vetted and background checked? I wouldn't consider my pre-teen mingling in a group of random adults she may or may not know to be in a particularly safe environment. And often, in a group like that, adults aren't paying attention for that kind of thing, especially when there are only one or two kids mixed in. They tend to still be considering it an adult activity/setting. I would not be comfortable with a tween in such a scenario without a parent present. And then when you add in the modesty BS that this particular man is trying to implement all by himself? No. Absolutely not.

Edited December 17, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Tanaqui]

But if it’s an adult activity, wouldn’t there be many adults present?

 

Right, but there are more opportunities around the edges to get a kid alone. As noted, by asking them to help set-up/clean-up, or asking for a "volunteer" to go to the other room and get something, or whatever.

 

I wouldn't necessarily consider this troubling or problematic on its own, but again, it seems likely that the OP has other reasons for feeling this is a bit off.

[Lisa R.]

If you go to someone in your church and suggest this man is grooming for being a possible predator, I’m afraid you will look like you’re overreacting and any valid point you could make would be lost.

 

This does not sound like grooming behavior to me. It sounds like an older, out of touch man with weird views on female clothing that were, unfortunately, standard views in certain circles for a long time. I do not justify those weird and unhealthy views but they were held by lots of zealous but often harmless people who swallowed zealous and incorrect teaching.

 

I’ve met men and women that held these clothing/modesty views. Fervently held these views! If you’ve not been around it, it seems super weird—-because it is.

 

What is not appropriate is him talking to your tween about her clothing. This should be confronted by you or your husband. Maybe both of you, even. You need to make it clear he is not to discuss her clothing ever. He is not to discuss sexuality with her ever. At this point he will act shocked and claim you and your daughter misunderstood. Continue to make clear you do not want to it to happen again. This should take about 5 total sentences and said calmly and firmly. If it happens one more time, then you should go to church leadership.

 

While I strongly sympathize with the situation of him confronting your daughter, saying this is predatory behavior and grooming is not appropriate at this point.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Lisa R.

[MedicMom]

Aren't the adults "in charge" in these kinds of environments vetted and background checked? I wouldn't consider my pre-teen mingling in a group of random adults she may or may not know to be in a particularly safe environment. And often, in a group like that, adults aren't paying attention for that kind of thing, especially when there are only one or two kids mixed in. They tend to still be considering it an adult activity/setting. I would not be comfortable with a tween in such a scenario without a parent present. And then when you add in the modesty BS that this particular man is trying to implement all by himself? No. Absolutely not.

Any adult in charge of youth at their church has a background check, but honestly I don’t put much faith in those TBH. All those weed out are people who have been caught—which still is good, but I wouldn’t rely on background checks.

If it was only one or two teens/tweens going to an adult event, and there were no parents(or in our case, grandparents) present, I don’t think I would let my kids go anyway. Not because I’d be concerned about untoward behavior, but because I doubt they’d enjoy it if no friends were there and no parent to take them home when it got completely boring. But this sounds like something where parents were expected to be present anyway.

Something like a church Christmas party, where there were many adults and the entire youth group or Sunday school? That wouldn’t bother me at all.

[marbel]

Aren't the adults "in charge" in these kinds of environments vetted and background checked? I wouldn't consider my pre-teen mingling in a group of random adults she may or may not know to be in a particularly safe environment. And often, in a group like that, adults aren't paying attention for that kind of thing, especially when there are only one or two kids mixed in. They tend to still be considering it an adult activity/setting. I would not be comfortable with a tween in such a scenario without a parent present.

 

Yeah, after thinking about it more... if I wasn't familiar with the people, I probably wouldn't want my tween in an adult situation without me, because even if there were mandated reporters about, they wouldn't necessarily be paying attention to the children -- they might assume either the parents were there with the child, or the parents gave permission for the child to be there without them. 

 

If the parent gave permission for the child to be in the adult activity without him/her, then they should anticipate that the child won't be supervised in the same way an activity for children would be. 

 

ETA: At every church I've belonged to, a children's activity would have two-deep supervision by background-checked volunteers. But if kids come to an adult event, parents are expected to supervise their kids. (Well, preferably, leave them home!)  I don't think I've ever seen a kid at something like that without their parent or another adult the parent(s) permitted the child to go with.  (Such as an event with a speaker, where a mom brings her daughter and another girl whose mom wasn't going to be there.)

Edited December 17, 2017 by marbel

[MedicMom]

I also think so much depends on environment as well. We don’t know what the activity in question was. A church caroling session that the man in charge decides to invite the youth group to come along vs an adult small group Christmas party at his house that he invites the tween and teen group to come to as well are very different. The first i wouldn’t think twice about, the second I would think was weird and would set off some red flags. Context in these situations matters.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Any adult in charge of youth at their church has a background check, but honestly I don’t put much faith in those TBH. All those weed out are people who have been caught—which still is good, but I wouldn’t rely on background checks.

If it was only one or two teens/tweens going to an adult event, and there were no parents(or in our case, grandparents) present, I don’t think I would let my kids go anyway. Not because I’d be concerned about untoward behavior, but because I doubt they’d enjoy it if no friends were there and no parent to take them home when it got completely boring. But this sounds like something where parents were expected to be present anyway.

Something like a church Christmas party, where there were many adults and the entire youth group or Sunday school? That wouldn’t bother me at all.

 

No, I don't either, really. 

 

The way Aura is describing this sounds like something where the child would be pleased to be consider mature enough to be participating, and it sounds like an ongoing thing. So a party might concern me a little bit less, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. And she mentioned that her DH was in the building but elsewhere, so not present with DD.

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, when I have been to church events involving a mix of tweens, teens and adults, depending on the structure of the event and how many people are there, frequently there really isn't much direct supervision going on of the tweens/teens.  I think most adults are subconsciously assuming they are safe because they are nearby, they are in the family church, and there are a lot of adults around that they know.  I think it can give a sense of safety that may or may not actually be there in reality.  KWIM?

 

In this particular situation, based on all the posts as a whole, I agree that something MAY be happening that is along the lines of grooming but the connection is very tentative.  I can see why you are concerned.  I just think the connections are going to look very tentative.  Even if that isn't what is happening boundaries were crossed that should not have been.  I also agree, OP, that if you hit the church with any accusation of predatory grooming they will be defensive and everything you say from then on will probably not be taken seriously.  Start small.  Discuss clearly the boundary crossing regarding talking with your daughter about "modest" clothing.  Discuss it directly with the man AND bring it up with the pastor.  Make it clear that is not acceptable.  Also, have your DH write a letter discussing the concerns regarding the dress code and "sexualizing" tween girls by making the dress code for girls so stringent when it had not been before  AND the feeling that no one at the church should directly talk with ANY of the children about being "immodest" in their clothing choices.  That type of conversation should be brought to the parent directly.  Having a letter on file is more official and theoretically should stay in their records.  If something else happens later on that creates more red flags you can refer back to that letter and show a pattern of behavior.

 

Hugs and best wishes.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Aura, like LMD, I'm with you, 100%. My bias is that I do not allow one square inch of turf in church settings, because experience has taught me that predators, change agents, and other types of control freaks look for churches as settings because the majority of churchgoers are "nice" and will give the benefit of the doubt.

 

When it's my child, I have no benefit of the doubt to give. Zero. I don't even care whether he's a pervert or a patriarch or both. If he is looking for a vulnerable child, in any way or for any reason, he wouldn't find that in MY child. I have experience in letting adults know that they do not have permission to mentor or shame my child. I don't care if people think I'm scary. I don't get in the way when there's not a problem.

 

The part about this being your husband's church - I think I'd tell DH he could choose whether there is a mountain-sized parental reaction to the supposedly mole hill of slut shaming a 10-12 year old *child* or whether we would just never go back. Either choice would work for me.

[Bluegoat]

I don't know, I don't necessarily have an issue with teens or tweens going to an activity that isn adult activity, without parents.  My daughter does this - she's 12 and sings in the adult choir, the next youngest people are university students.  There are generally lots of people around, but it's not set up for some kind of special supervision.

 

However - I don't know that I really think the measures that are put in place in child-cantered settings do much to protect kids.  I think they are mostly about liability, though that is not how the insurance companies "sell" them.  But what limits liability isn't necessarily as closely related as people think to what creates a safer environment.  

 

In any case, my dd is alone with some of these people in other settings, and is old enough to stay home any babysit, or take herself to the library, etc.  There are all kids of times some could make advances of some kind.  What going to protect young people of that age IMO is them knowing what is really inappropriate.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Bluegoat

[scoutingmom]

Aura, like LMD, I'm with you, 100%. My bias is that I do not allow one square inch of turf in church settings, because experience has taught me that predators, change agents, and other types of control freaks look for churches as settings because the majority of churchgoers are "nice" and will give the benefit of the doubt.

 

When it's my child, I have no benefit of the doubt to give. Zero. I don't even care whether he's a pervert or a patriarch or both. If he is looking for a vulnerable child, in any way or for any reason, he wouldn't find that in MY child. I have experience in letting adults know that they do not have permission to mentor or shame my child. I don't care if people think I'm scary. I don't get in the way when there's not a problem.

 

The part about this being your husband's church - I think I'd tell DH he could choose whether there is a mountain-sized parental reaction to the supposedly mole hill of slut shaming a 10-12 year old *child* or whether we would just never go back. Either choice would work for me.

Slut-shaming? Obviously it depends on what he said to her.... I'm picturing something like 'just want to mention, dresses were supposed to be to the knees for this event'. Apparently you are picturing a 20 minute berating lecture on how she is the devil's spawn incarnate....

 

There is nothing on any of the posts to indicate what it actually was.

 

I am of the opinion that there is way too little information in this thread to make any opinion at all. What type of event? Repeating event? How many kids invited? 1, a few, all? What was said?

 

A to the knees dress code is not unusual at churches, schools, and some other events. People that inforce it aren't necessarily enforcing it from a sexual standpoint either.

 

So nothing mentioned is raising flags for me based on the limited information. But maybe with more information it would

 

 

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[Lang Syne Boardie]

Slut-shaming? Obviously it depends on what he said to her.... I'm picturing something like 'just want to mention, dresses were supposed to be to the knees for this event'. Apparently you are picturing a 20 minute berating lecture on how she is the devil's spawn incarnate....

 

There is nothing on any of the posts to indicate what it actually was.

 

I am of the opinion that there is way too little information in this thread to make any opinion at all. What type of event? Repeating event? How many kids invited? 1, a few, all? What was said?

 

A to the knees dress code is not unusual at churches, schools, and some other events. People that inforce it aren't necessarily enforcing it from a sexual standpoint either.

 

So nothing mentioned is raising flags for me based on the limited information. But maybe with more information it would

 

 

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No, I'm not picturing a twenty minute berating lecture on how she is the devil's spawn incarnate. I didn't say that, and didn't mean that, at all.

 

If he made a clothed child feel ashamed for being immodest, that's a problem.

[momacacia]

Points 2 and 3 that you make re dress code and addressing your dd are *huge* red flags. Whether they're flags for grooming, idk, and would be irrelevant to me. My first choice would be either to not send children back into this situation under this individuals influence/authority, or second, if I were to send them back into this situation that they have an eye-to-eye discussion with me and my husband (you have to take your DH on your side, because a man like this does not respect women or their opinions), and that he is in no uncertain terms to speak to my daughter again about her appearance or one-on-one without me present. He should know he's being watched and so is your daughter.

[kiwik]

It is hard to tell but I would err on the side of caution. I pulled my kids from the church kids club because the couple who ran it gave me the heebie jeebies so I just suggest the guy be made quite clear that he is to go to your husband not you. Maybe talk to your daughter about staying with the group or ensuring a nominated adult is within call.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, I have missed predatory behavior sometimes, but I have NEVER been wrong when I suspected it; not even when I was mentally berating myself for being so unkind in thought toward someone who really 'hadn't done anything'.  

[GoodGrief]

Slut-shaming? Obviously it depends on what he said to her.... I'm picturing something like 'just want to mention, dresses were supposed to be to the knees for this event'. Apparently you are picturing a 20 minute berating lecture on how she is the devil's spawn incarnate....

 

There is nothing on any of the posts to indicate what it actually was.

 

I am of the opinion that there is way too little information in this thread to make any opinion at all. What type of event? Repeating event? How many kids invited? 1, a few, all? What was said?

 

A to the knees dress code is not unusual at churches, schools, and some other events. People that inforce it aren't necessarily enforcing it from a sexual standpoint either.

 

So nothing mentioned is raising flags for me based on the limited information. But maybe with more information it would

 

 

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This is my opinion as well. Just don't know enough specifics. I might be annoyed at the dress code comment, but context would matter.

 

In general though, if there are concerns, having your husband speak to the man (calmly) would make him aware that you are cognizant of your daughter's whereabouts and things that are occurring. If he is of ill intent, a child with attentive parents is a less attractive target. Be a presence during the adult activity in question. I certainly would not throw the grooming accusation out there though without hard evidence.

 

[GoodGrief]

Just figured out the multi-quote thing...

 

experience has taught me that predators, change agents, and other types of control freaks look for churches as settings because the majority of churchgoers are "nice" and will give the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

I do agree with this. As much as churches get a bad rap for judgmentalism, my experience is that people in these groups tend to have a hard time believing that one of their own could be a predator. Oddly enough, I've found this to also be the case in community theater groups.

 

 

 

 

However - I don't know that I really think the measures that are put in place in child-cantered settings do much to protect kids.  I think they are mostly about liability, though that is not how the insurance companies "sell" them.  But what limits liability isn't necessarily as closely related as people think to what creates a safer environment.  

 

<snip>  What going to protect young people of that age IMO is them knowing what is really inappropriate.

 

Agree with this as well.  I do have some personal experience with the topic, and this rings true for me, in retrospect.

[scoutingmom]

No, I'm not picturing a twenty minute berating lecture on how she is the devil's spawn incarnate. I didn't say that, and didn't mean that, at all.

 

If he made a clothed child feel ashamed for being immodest, that's a problem.

I'm just trying to figure out the slut-shaming comment. I think a person can say that someones clothes don't meet a dress code without it being slut-shaming. Obviously it depends on what is said and how. That info wasn't given. It just seems like a huge jump to conclude that.

 

This was what we were told.

 

Singling out and approaching a tween girl (my dd) who did not meet this dress code.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by scoutingmom

[Aura]

Update below.

 

First, thank you all for your comments! I know that I haven't given a lot of specifics, but I don't feel it's a good idea to really go into more detail. Sorry that it makes replies difficult, but I appreciate your thoughts anyway!

 

I will add that dd (11 y.o.) has over the past several weeks become defensive about the clothes that she wears to church. We went shopping to find dresses for her to wear, and she would not consider anything that did not come BELOW the knee (which, of course, we couldn't find anything that did that!). Most dresses we looked at fell between the top of her knee to about 1" above it. She would not even consider it. She was simply adamant that it wasn't modest and therefore she couldn't wear it to church. It was during this shopping trip when details about the dress code and modesty thing came out and that Mr. Man had approached her about what she wore.

 

Let me add one more thing before I give the update. I don't have a problem with dress codes! But they need to based on the type of event, not based on modesty. Formal attire for formal events. Casual attire for casual events. If someone says, please dress nicely and clarifies that "nicely" means girls wearing dresses and guys wearing collared shirts, fine. Just don't bring modesty into the equation, cause that changes the entire dynamics.

 

UPDATE: Dh had a long talk with Mr. Man yesterday. Dh is also going to be talking to the pastor, just to clarify some things.

 

Regarding the dress code itself, Mr. Man said that he understood the dress code was what was already in place and he was just trying to enforce an already existing rule. Apparently, several other women have already approached him to clarify that it has never been a rule and the only references to attire were suggestions. :hurray: Good for them! He said he's already planned a talk with the pastor to clarify that.

 

Regarding modesty/immodesty, he said that he never used those words. Dd got them from somewhere, though, and it wasn't from us. When we talk about clothes, it's whether it's appropriate for the occasion and/or whether they fit or not. It's possible that she heard them from some other person, most likely at church. Regardless, we're going to talk to her some more about that, and Dh is going to make sure that she knows that if she goes anywhere with him, he is giving her his support for whatever she might wearing. If he has a problem with it, she'd know before they ever left the house, so if someone else has a problem with what she's wearing, they can take it up with him. 

 

We're not certain that she's going to go back. Right now, with Christmas and New Years right around the corner, most all extra activities have been put on hold, so this gives us some time to see how things progress. Regardless, dd has never been totally alone. Dh is very watchful of all the kids when they're with him, even at church, and even more so than I typically am. (He's just not always in listening range.) And now he knows to be specifically on guard for this kind of behavior.

 

One thing dh and I discussed is how predators look for situations and vulnerabilities and how they progress. It starts off perfectly innocent, and one small step at a time, it progresses into something evil. I don't think he's ever really looked at things from that perspective, so now he's more aware of how subtle and deceptive predators are and how to watch for those steps.

 

And that's really the issue: the small, innocent steps that lead to evil. As most of you have pointed out, a lot of what happened is not something to be worried about. It's how it's taken all together. It's not that I believe Mr. Man is a predator, it's that his actions were following the same path as a predator's, not just one step, but I saw three distinct steps. It affected my dd, and that of course, will rile me up! He, as a leader, should be aware enough to know not to do that and not to allow others to do that---but apparently not. The pastor, IMO, should be making sure that there's no room for someone to come in and subtly change things or do anything that allows three steps down an evil path (whether or not that's where they're going). And dh didn't catch it either, though he didn't realize that Mr. Man had spoken directly to dd about her clothes, either.

 

 

I think all these men have been living safely in their little man-bubble, oblivious to how absolutely pervasive sexual harassment is in their own environments (not just on the news) and how modesty-based dress codes play into the objectification and sexualizing of girls. As leaders and fathers, they need to get their heads out of the sand and start being proactive! <--- THAT'S what I find the most frustrating! Their ignorance makes it easier for predators to get away with things. And in this particular case, my dd was the one who was placed the direct path.

 

I feel that it's been handled well so far. We've got a few follow-ups to take care of, and I'd still like to sit Mr. Man and the pastor down and give them both a long lecture on sexual harassment, child predators (particularly in the church), modesty-based dress codes, and how they really need to be more careful and proactive. But since I'm not a part of the church, it's probably not my place. I'm satisfied with how dh is addressing it.

 

[shawthorne44]

It sounds like it was handled well.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

That's a great update (except for DD being so worried about the modesty part :( ). Good work, mama. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Good update.

 

Mr. Man sounds legalistic at the very least. I know that he isn’t the pastor but does he have any actual authority? It astounds me that he would think that it is his place to enforce anything.

 

 

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[Aura]

Good update.

 

Mr. Man sounds legalistic at the very least. I know that he isn’t the pastor but does he have any actual authority? It astounds me that he would think that it is his place to enforce anything.

 

 

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Yes, I think he is legalistic, and I think that plays into things. But he also does have some authority, not to arbitrarily set a dress code or really any rules, but he would the one to enforce any rules set forth by the pastor and church that applied to this group. Sorry I didn't clarify that sooner.

[Starr]

It’s interesting that so many of us respond negatively to a couple of names of men who run ministries but find this guy okay. Is it okay for others to make women’s dress codes? Is it okay for men to check out women to see if the are following the rules and behaving properly? I think it’s sad to see a young girl upset because her current wardrobe that was fine yesterday is no longer.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It’s interesting that so many of us respond negatively to a couple of names of men who run ministries but find this guy okay. Is it okay for others to make women’s dress codes? Is it okay for men to check out women to see if the are following the rules and behaving properly? I think it’s sad to see a young girl upset because her current wardrobe that was fine yesterday is no longer.

 

Who finds him ok?  Some were simply saying that it might not be, strictly speaking, predatory grooming behavior even though it is definitely boundary crossing and not ok. 

[Aura]

Who finds him ok?  Some were simply saying that it might not be, strictly speaking, predatory grooming behavior even though it is definitely boundary crossing and not ok. 

 

Yes, this, I think the general consensus was that his behavior was boundary crossing and not acceptable, but not necessarily predatory grooming. I did try to clarify my thoughts on that.

[Bluegoat]

It’s interesting that so many of us respond negatively to a couple of names of men who run ministries but find this guy okay. Is it okay for others to make women’s dress codes? Is it okay for men to check out women to see if the are following the rules and behaving properly? I think it’s sad to see a young girl upset because her current wardrobe that was fine yesterday is no longer.

 

I don't care who makes or enforces a dress code, as long as it's a sensible one.

[Aura]

I don't care who makes or enforces a dress code, as long as it's a sensible one.

 

In general, yeah, I agree, particularly with adults. (As long as sensible does not include trying to establish modesty rules.)

 

I think that when kids are involved, it's important to involve the parents in any kind of individual rule enforcement. The chance for misinterpretation (or worse) is too high.

 

If Mr. Man had come to dh first or at the least, afterward and said, "Look, I just reminded your dd that the dress codes says XYZ. Just wanted to make sure you knew." or whatever. That simple communication would have helped to clear any misperceptions or misunderstandings and certainly put him in a better light with myself and dh.

 

IME, problems are just too easily found when someone confronts an individual child with a rule infraction and then fails to follow through with the parents. 

[MedicMom]

Are there other girls who think she may not be dressing modestly(their families have different standards)? I almost wonder if she is hearing it from them and this is really more of a peer pressure thing. My daughter is certainly aware that we believe modesty in dress is important in our family and as a tween I can very easily see her discussing that with others.

I guess I kind of wonder, if none of the adults have said anything about modesty, if this is coming from the peers in the church instead.

[Aura]

Are there other girls who think she may not be dressing modestly(their families have different standards)? I almost wonder if she is hearing it from them and this is really more of a peer pressure thing. My daughter is certainly aware that we believe modesty in dress is important in our family and as a tween I can very easily see her discussing that with others.

I guess I kind of wonder, if none of the adults have said anything about modesty, if this is coming from the peers in the church instead.

 

Yes, it is possible that she heard it from peers. There are a couple of other girls around her age, and I think their families have stricter, modesty-based dress codes. So yeah, that's possible.

 

It's also possible that she heard it from other adults, most likely a SS teacher, so we're going to check in about that, too. I know her SS teacher, though, and although she might have different standards than us, I don't think she'd teach that in class. A substitute teacher, maybe, depending on who might be substituting. But that's one of those things that we're going to follow up on.

[SKL]

The person who groomed and molested me never said anything about modesty.  Quite the opposite.  I'm sorry to hear people saying we must be on constant high alert for, quote, "evil."  It feels similar to the mindset that we must be on the alert for the evils of immodesty.

 

I agree that it could well be your daughter's peers telling her about modesty.  Though I don't automatically believe Mr. Man - people do lie when they are on the defensive.

 

I have nothing against the modesty concept, but I agree it is the parents' business to teach their kids about that.

[Bluegoat]

In general, yeah, I agree, particularly with adults. (As long as sensible does not include trying to establish modesty rules.)

 

I think that when kids are involved, it's important to involve the parents in any kind of individual rule enforcement. The chance for misinterpretation (or worse) is too high.

 

If Mr. Man had come to dh first or at the least, afterward and said, "Look, I just reminded your dd that the dress codes says XYZ. Just wanted to make sure you knew." or whatever. That simple communication would have helped to clear any misperceptions or misunderstandings and certainly put him in a better light with myself and dh.

 

IME, problems are just too easily found when someone confronts an individual child with a rule infraction and then fails to follow through with the parents. 

 

Maybe.  Though if it's pretty straight forward, I wouldn't necessarily expect that. Lots of time kids might forget or not realize, and it amounts to a reminder.

[sassenach]

Yes, it is possible that she heard it from peers. There are a couple of other girls around her age, and I think their families have stricter, modesty-based dress codes. So yeah, that's possible.

 

It's also possible that she heard it from other adults, most likely a SS teacher, so we're going to check in about that, too. I know her SS teacher, though, and although she might have different standards than us, I don't think she'd teach that in class. A substitute teacher, maybe, depending on who might be substituting. But that's one of those things that we're going to follow up on.

The only person who has ever said a thing to dd about modesty was a homeschool friend. Not even one from a strict family, or anything. Quite the opposite. But this little girl was very black and white and took it upon herself to openly criticize the other girls if she thought their shorts were too short.

[LMD]

Update below.

 

First, thank you all for your comments! I know that I haven't given a lot of specifics, but I don't feel it's a good idea to really go into more detail. Sorry that it makes replies difficult, but I appreciate your thoughts anyway!

 

I will add that dd (11 y.o.) has over the past several weeks become defensive about the clothes that she wears to church. We went shopping to find dresses for her to wear, and she would not consider anything that did not come BELOW the knee (which, of course, we couldn't find anything that did that!). Most dresses we looked at fell between the top of her knee to about 1" above it. She would not even consider it. She was simply adamant that it wasn't modest and therefore she couldn't wear it to church. It was during this shopping trip when details about the dress code and modesty thing came out and that Mr. Man had approached her about what she wore.

 

Let me add one more thing before I give the update. I don't have a problem with dress codes! But they need to based on the type of event, not based on modesty. Formal attire for formal events. Casual attire for casual events. If someone says, please dress nicely and clarifies that "nicely" means girls wearing dresses and guys wearing collared shirts, fine. Just don't bring modesty into the equation, cause that changes the entire dynamics.

 

UPDATE: Dh had a long talk with Mr. Man yesterday. Dh is also going to be talking to the pastor, just to clarify some things.

 

Regarding the dress code itself, Mr. Man said that he understood the dress code was what was already in place and he was just trying to enforce an already existing rule. Apparently, several other women have already approached him to clarify that it has never been a rule and the only references to attire were suggestions. :hurray: Good for them! He said he's already planned a talk with the pastor to clarify that.

 

Regarding modesty/immodesty, he said that he never used those words. Dd got them from somewhere, though, and it wasn't from us. When we talk about clothes, it's whether it's appropriate for the occasion and/or whether they fit or not. It's possible that she heard them from some other person, most likely at church. Regardless, we're going to talk to her some more about that, and Dh is going to make sure that she knows that if she goes anywhere with him, he is giving her his support for whatever she might wearing. If he has a problem with it, she'd know before they ever left the house, so if someone else has a problem with what she's wearing, they can take it up with him.

 

We're not certain that she's going to go back. Right now, with Christmas and New Years right around the corner, most all extra activities have been put on hold, so this gives us some time to see how things progress. Regardless, dd has never been totally alone. Dh is very watchful of all the kids when they're with him, even at church, and even more so than I typically am. (He's just not always in listening range.) And now he knows to be specifically on guard for this kind of behavior.

 

One thing dh and I discussed is how predators look for situations and vulnerabilities and how they progress. It starts off perfectly innocent, and one small step at a time, it progresses into something evil. I don't think he's ever really looked at things from that perspective, so now he's more aware of how subtle and deceptive predators are and how to watch for those steps.

 

And that's really the issue: the small, innocent steps that lead to evil. As most of you have pointed out, a lot of what happened is not something to be worried about. It's how it's taken all together. It's not that I believe Mr. Man is a predator, it's that his actions were following the same path as a predator's, not just one step, but I saw three distinct steps. It affected my dd, and that of course, will rile me up! He, as a leader, should be aware enough to know not to do that and not to allow others to do that---but apparently not. The pastor, IMO, should be making sure that there's no room for someone to come in and subtly change things or do anything that allows three steps down an evil path (whether or not that's where they're going). And dh didn't catch it either, though he didn't realize that Mr. Man had spoken directly to dd about her clothes, either.

 

 

I think all these men have been living safely in their little man-bubble, oblivious to how absolutely pervasive sexual harassment is in their own environments (not just on the news) and how modesty-based dress codes play into the objectification and sexualizing of girls. As leaders and fathers, they need to get their heads out of the sand and start being proactive! <--- THAT'S what I find the most frustrating! Their ignorance makes it easier for predators to get away with things. And in this particular case, my dd was the one who was placed the direct path.

 

I feel that it's been handled well so far. We've got a few follow-ups to take care of, and I'd still like to sit Mr. Man and the pastor down and give them both a long lecture on sexual harassment, child predators (particularly in the church), modesty-based dress codes, and how they really need to be more careful and proactive. But since I'm not a part of the church, it's probably not my place. I'm satisfied with how dh is addressing it.

Good update. I still don't like that Mr. Man thinks he's right and will clarify with the pastor...

 

My bold - I know exactly what you mean. Dh and I had some conversations after an incident with a lecherous old man and my 12 year old daughter. Dh intimidated the guy away, thought it was odd, definitely unusual and mostly harmless. I was crushed and made him realise that he was just finally seeing what we live all the time.

[Word Nerd]

Yes, this, I think the general consensus was that his behavior was boundary crossing and not acceptable, but not necessarily predatory grooming. I did try to clarify my thoughts on that.

This exactly. I’m glad it’s being handled and that your DH talked to him. That will hopefully make a difference for others regardless of whether DD returns.

[Reefgazer]

Go to church with your DD next time and when he approaches her, tell him off yourself.