WWYD if you saw someone exhibiting predatory grooming behavior?

[Aura]

If you saw someone in authority, specifically in a church but not the pastor, exhibiting behavior that was in line with grooming but saw nothing specific, what would you do?

 

This is a nice man. Everyone I know seems to like him. He's good at what he does. But I see some warning signs. Nothing overt. Nothing that screams abuse. Small things. Things that I don't think should exist in a church.

 

Inviting children to participate in a traditionally adult program.

 

Insisting on a modesty based dress code for the women in this program, which includes dress/skirts to the knees (and there is no historical precedence or practical reason for this dress code).

 

Singling out and approaching a tween girl (my dd) who did not meet this dress code.

 

I'm not saying this man is a predator, but three strikes you're out, ya' know. Again, I'm not accusing him of anything. I think he believes what he was taught about modesty-based dress. I think he's trying to fill a gap by inviting the kids to join in. I think he and the pastor and probably dh think this is all harmless. I vehemently disagree. I'm ready to take all my kids out of this church right now. But this is dh's church. I don't really go anyway.

 

I'm going to talk to dh. I want to talk to the pastor and the man, too. I don't want to come across as accusing this man of being a child predator! I'm not accusing him. But his actions are reflective of that, and they ALL need to understand that. These actions, intentional or not, are sending the wrong signals to my child and programming her to be more accepting of predatory behavior. I will not accept that. 

 

I'm really upset about this. It's after 3 am. I've been up for over an hour because I'm that upset. I would love to sit them all down and give them a good tongue lashing!!! And then take my kids and walk out of that church and never look back.

 

But that approach is not going to go over well. It's likely to just make everyone defensive and cause bigger problems. I need a more diplomatic way of handling this.

 

Suggestions? 

[Tammi K]

My first thought, reading what you wrote, is that it doesn't sound like any alarm bells are ringing for me. But, I trust that you are seeing something that concerns YOU.

 

So, that is the approach that I would take.... " I understand that you don't feel like anything is wrong, but I am telling you that as a mother, what I am seeing concerns me and I am afraid for you and the church that I may not be the only one seeing this.  These are the things I am seeing.....and this is why I think it is concerning......"

 

Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

[Aura]

My first thought, reading what you wrote, is that it doesn't sound like any alarm bells are ringing for me. But, I trust that you are seeing something that concerns YOU.

 

So, that is the approach that I would take.... " I understand that you don't feel like anything is wrong, but I am telling you that as a mother, what I am seeing concerns me and I am afraid for you and the church that I may not be the only one seeing this.  These are the things I am seeing.....and this is why I think it is concerning......"

 

Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

 

Thank you. Your approach sounds very good. 

 

I know on the surface it probably doesn't seem like much, and that's part of my problem. I do see things that are concerning! But when you try to put it into words, it doesn't sound so alarming.  By themselves, these things are not a big deal. It's the progression...

 

Oh, you're going to let the kids participate in XYZ? Okay. I don't see it being helpful, but why not? No problem. They'll like that.

 

What? The previous director didn't have this dress code. The pastor doesn't require this dress code. There is no practical reason for a change or for such strictness. But whatever. I can deal.

 

Wait a minute here! You, a man, are going to pull aside my pre-teen daughter to tell her that she's dressing immodest because her dress doesn't hit her knee?! And say nothing to either parent about it???

 

The last one is the biggest problem, and I'd be having words on that alone, but I think it's even worse when you consider it as part of progression.

[Tanaqui]

I wonder if maybe there are other things you've subconsciously noted to make your reaction this strong.

 

On another note, I wonder if you've brought your concern about the modesty requirement to others in your church. Is that the appropriate thing to do? It seems like it should be, but I dunno.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

The only thing I would take issue with- based on what you wrote- is him not addressing the dress code with the parents and instead talking to the child.  But I assume your mom radar is picking up other things which we can't see from the outside.  You should always trust your gut.  

 

Letting children participate in an adult program

Having a dress code

Correcting a dress code violation

 

- none of these are what I think of when I think of grooming.  

 

If you are worried but don't want to pull the kids out, why not have your DH participate in the program with the kids, sine it's for adults as well.  The dress code thing needs to be brought up with the pastor.  Either the church does or does not have a dress code, and it should not be variable according to activity/leader.  

 

But you are really upset, and that tells me you are seeing things that you can't describe, and those feelings need to be listened to and not ignored.

[Lecka]

I think there are some weird issues inherent in modesty dress and singling out girls and women for modesty dress, and then having men be the ones to enforce the policies. I think it is sending a weird message anytime it happens, about girls being icky and it being okay for men to bring it up and judge them. Now I don't think that extremely, really, but I think it can underly things at times.

 

I think that if the church as a whole doesn't have modesty dress as a policy, that it may not reflect the beliefs/values you are overall comfortable with.

 

Especially if you find your daughter's clothes to be appropriate! And if they are acceptable overall for church attendance and day-to-day life!

 

I also think some policy if bringing things to the attention of parents would be best and not unreasonable to ask for.

 

I think too it isn't definite, but is possible, that the man is testing your husband to see if he will be offended or not. It's a little test, but maybe he pushes the envelope more, or maybe it's something where "this time mom got upset over nothing, so next time it's probably nothing, too." I think that's possible and it would be what would worry me.

[kroe1]

Momma radar is rarely turned the wrong direction.

[SKL]

Without knowing what the previously-adult-only activity is, it's hard to have an opinion on that.  As for the dress code, I might not like it, but I don't view it as grooming behavior.  If you do decide to speak to anyone about it, I would use some other language to describe it, maybe sexist or objectifying or discriminatory.  Suggesting that someone is a child molester (or trying to be) is pretty extreme without evidence.

 

It is possible that this person's previous church had the skirt length requirement for girls.  My nieces' Catholic school has that requirement even for Kindergarteners.  My kids' dress code isn't that strict, but their 1st grade teacher complained to me when my tiny 6yo's shorts (worn only for field day) weren't longer than her fingertips.  I thought it was ridiculous, but whatever.  We always have the option to leave if we don't like the rules.

[Joules]

Not having been there, the facts don’t scream grooming to me. But my personal opinion is the focus on men being uncontrollable and women being at fault is pretty sick to start with. So personally I would be taking dd to (what I consider) a healthier environment to mature. Again just my two cents.

 

I would focus on the last one if I talked to anyone. Ask that a policy be made to bring any concerns with minors to the attention of the parents first. You could say, “Particularly in this current environment, it does not look good from the outside for a grown man to comment on the sexuality of a pre-teens clothes.†This doesn’t accuse anyone, but makes it clear that this could look bad.

[bettyandbob]

The things you've stated don't strike me as grooming. However, this man has set off an alarm for you. So there's probably more that you haven't noticed subconsciously.

 

If it were my child I'd remove her from the program (choir?). I'd raise concerns to the pastor about him not speaking to you about the dress code and its application to tweens.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Diana P.

[Ausmumof3]

None of those things stand out specifically as grooming to me as I know plenty of people who go with a modesty style approach to dress that aren't about grooming. If anything at least some of them are more about encouraging girls to be about more than being ornamental.

 

However I also think it's possible that you are subconsciously picking up something else and these things are adding weight to the thought process. I probably wouldn't say anything at this point but I would increase my supervision level and involvement level. That will give a clear message that your dd is not a readily available target and hopefully let you assess the situation a bit more the save anyone else from being a target.

 

I tend to disagree about the mum radar. My mum freaked about some perfectly reasonable people and was totally ok with some who could have been dangerous.

[trulycrabby]

I'm angry on your behalf.

 

From your description, I would be concerned, not that there is necessarily grooming but rather the development of patriarchy in this church.

 

Maybe it's just this one guy, but the fact that the pastor is not concerned is worrisome, in my opinion.

 

I know it's more your husband's church than yours, but my advice is to start attending in order to get an accurate picture of what is happening, and if an ideological shift is occurring. I would also stick to your daughter's side like glue.

Edited December 16, 2017 by trulycrabby

[Innisfree]

I can't multiquote, but Lecka, Joules and Trulycrabby express my feelings very well. I think there is something very wrong when men feel free to critique girls' dress on moral grounds. They are not arbiters over us. I think I'd either pull kids out of that setting or get very involved, see things from the inside, and be very vocal in expressing my concerns.

[Guest]

I tend to disagree about the mum radar. My mum freaked about some perfectly reasonable people and was totally ok with some who could have been dangerous

My experience with my mother when I was young as well.

 

 

I agree with others who advise taking issue specifically with the enforcement of a dress code with the dd and not conferring with the parents. It does not seem like predatory behavior to me, even if it is objectionable. There was a woman in my homeschool circle who seemed to want to personally erradicate all appearances of boobs, butts, bra straps and thighs all by herself, so her sons wouldn’t be exposed to exciting female body parts. *hardeyeroll* My biggest issue with her was that she directly talked to the young girls, not the parents, as if she were the Guardian of Modesty for all the poor girls whose mother didn’t notice a bra strap.

[Pawz4me]

I don't have a daughter but if I did I wouldn't have her in a church--or anywhere else--where a man had or thought he had authority to tell her how to dress or not dress.

 

Not cool.

Not his business.

We do not do patriarchy.

[Chris in VA]

I'm not sure what to say--

 

I don't see anything as grooming behavior, but then, I'm not really well-schooled in that. I tend to think of grooming as starting by forming inappropriate relationships with kids, where at first, it seems they are just being friendly and nice, then progresses to becoming more confidants (sharing secrets, etc--setting themselves up to be willing listeners, but crossing the line to being the "only one" who understands), and then to inviting kids out separately to do things (maybe inviting groups at first, but then narrowing down to one at a time). 

There is a sense of getting to know the person really well, and trusting they'd never harm your child. 

I don't see that here. 

 

Something creeps you out, though. 

 

I personally don't have a problem with a guy reminding a teen or other person of a modesty code, IF that code is part of the church. IOW, I don't think only women should address women on this issue. Personally, I don't really hold with the whole modesty thing, as a church/Christian dress code, but it depends on your religion (like, I know some branches of the Muslim faith and the Jewish faith have codes) and your denomination if you are Christian. (I do have some rules of my own--I see some dress as inappropriate, like Daisy Dukes and super-baggy pants for young men, but they are not really in the whole Modesty Movement type of rules.) You are talking specifically about a Christian church, though, and you are saying it's NOT part of the culture, so yeah, it sticks out. 

 

I think I'd just go to the leadership and state your concerns, and deal with two different issues--the man correcting your daughter without coming to you, and your vibe that something is off. It should be held in confidence, and you should have no fear of repercussions for either you or your daughter. 

 

And then I'd pull my daughter from the group and watch all interactions with this man, and never let her talk alone with him. 

 

[Starr]

What author is he reading? Dress code for women in his special program? Singling our teen girls. Doesn’t sound good to me.

[Word Nerd]

I would focus on the arbitrary dress code and how it was mishandled and keep “predatory grooming behavior†out of the discussion when you bring it up. That’s a serious accusation, and I’m not seeing how it applies to this situation unless there’s a lot more you aren’t sharing.

[catz]

The thing is this dress code requirement might be “normal†in some patriarchal communities and might feel stalkerish and over bearing for other people. Is this normal for that church? If it is not raising anyone else’s alarms, maybe this isn’t the church community for you.

Edited December 16, 2017 by WoolySocks

[MedicMom]

What denomination is this? I’ve been in several denominations over the years that all had similar dress codes—not for attending church but, for instance, singing in the choir. I sang in several Christmas choirs with both adults and kids and it was usually something like a red and green shirt, black slacks or knee length skirt. Sometimes the directors were male, sometimes female, but they would have always said something if the dress uniform wasn’t met.

 

I don’t see grooming behavior. Grooming would be small presents or encouraging your daughter to confide inappropriately in him. It seems all very normal behavior to me given the situation. I semi trust Mom radar(my mom, like many others here, freaked out about perfectly normal things) and you may be picking up on something. Or you may have some underlying feelings concerning this church that are coloring things here. Without being there, I don’t know.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What author is he reading? Dress code for women in his special program? Singling our teen girls. Doesn’t sound good to me.

 

Yeah really.  I dislike this for other reasons so it's hard for me to answer.

[Sandwalker]

I think there are some weird issues inherent in modesty dress and singling out girls and women for modesty dress, and then having men be the ones to enforce the policies. I think it is sending a weird message anytime it happens, about girls being icky and it being okay for men to bring it up and judge them. Now I don't think that extremely, really, but I think it can underly things at times.

 

I think that if the church as a whole doesn't have modesty dress as a policy, that it may not reflect the beliefs/values you are overall comfortable with.

 

Especially if you find your daughter's clothes to be appropriate! And if they are acceptable overall for church attendance and day-to-day life!

 

I also think some policy if bringing things to the attention of parents would be best and not unreasonable to ask for.

 

I think too it isn't definite, but is possible, that the man is testing your husband to see if he will be offended or not. It's a little test, but maybe he pushes the envelope more, or maybe it's something where "this time mom got upset over nothing, so next time it's probably nothing, too." I think that's possible and it would be what would worry me.

^^ I agree. When my dd was middle school aged, I pulled her out of some classes she was taking at a local church, for similar reasons. She was singled out: the pastor took her wrist and led her up in front of everyone to point out her (minor) dress code violation. And put his hands on her shoulders. The Mom Creep Alert was ringing. Several years later, this married pastor was found having an affair with the church secretary and fired.

 

I saw a documentary on body language, where powerful men regularly assert their authority over other men by touching, hugging, or getting physically in between the man and his wife or child. Politicians do it all the time. "Come stand over here while we all take a picture together", placing the child in front of the politician, inserting himself between the man and wife. It was very interesting, as some of the behavior looked creepy in a sexual way, but was really more about power. Which is, I guess, related anyway.

[J-rap]

I would focus on the arbitrary dress code and how it was mishandled and keep “predatory grooming behavior†out of the discussion when you bring it up. That’s a serious accusation, and I’m not seeing how it applies to this situation unless there’s a lot more you aren’t sharing.

 

I agree with this.

[J-rap]

None of those things stand out specifically as grooming to me as I know plenty of people who go with a modesty style approach to dress that aren't about grooming. If anything at least some of them are more about encouraging girls to be about more than being ornamental.

 

However I also think it's possible that you are subconsciously picking up something else and these things are adding weight to the thought process. I probably wouldn't say anything at this point but I would increase my supervision level and involvement level. That will give a clear message that your dd is not a readily available target and hopefully let you assess the situation a bit more the save anyone else from being a target.

 

I tend to disagree about the mum radar. My mum freaked about some perfectly reasonable people and was totally ok with some who could have been dangerous.

 

True.  I don't always trust parent-radar.  Of course it's good to pay attention to it, and I'm certain some people have better instinct than others.  But either way, I've learned it's not always correct.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I just wanted to address the idea of grooming behavior. It is quite possible that it is grooming behavior. Mom is uncomfortable and her radar is going off. That is enough. But what I am hearing is an adult singling out a preteen ... dangling a special adult thing ... and subtly chipping away at her self worth (criticing her clothing choices) without the parent, and sexualizing her (immodest .. impure.) That rings alarm bells to me. It is inappropriate in the least.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Guinevere]

There was a man who volunteered in a youth program that I participated in as a kid.  I still have enormous respect for him, and always have looked up to him as something as a father figure.  I remember one time, he pulled me into the hallway, privately, because he had some concerns about me (I was fine).  I thought it was ludicrous he'd brought a female chaperone to the conversation, but I totally get it now.  That set a precedent in my mind for how these conversations should go, and if I saw a grown man seeking a private, one on one, conversation with my young teen, there wouldn't be a second chance.  Especially as regards her clothing, it should be a much more delicately handled matter.

[Saddlemomma]

To me, it doesn't sound so much like a "predatory" behavior but a "patriarchal" behavior. I have seen this in older generations in certain denominations.  If this had happened to my DD, I would approach the gentleman, tell him DD had told me about his concerns, and ask if there was a dress code for the church and, if so, I would want to see it. If the response is no, there isn't a dress code, then I would tell the gentleman that I appreciate his concern, but as DD's mother, it's my place to determine whether her apparel is appropriate or not.

[maize]

Agree with others that the behavior you describe does not signal grooming, though you may be picking up other signals; BUT an adult man policing modesty dress in a young girl signals objectification of females.

 

And that is something that can and should be addressed directly.

 

Here are a few articles from a Christian perspective that explore the modesty/objectification issue; I've only skimmed them but they may be a starting point.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theodysseyonline.com/modesty-the-christian-double-standard.amp

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2011/december/how-modest-is-hottest-is-hurting-christian-women.html

 

 

https://adiposerex.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/women-arent-cake-part-1-some-definitions-and-101-ing/

[Lecka]

My husband has mentioned this, it is something he has had happen.

 

Sometimes you start attending a church on just Sunday morning and it seems pretty normal.

 

Then as you start attending more activities, more times in the week, you start to find out there is a lot of stuff that the more involved people all agree about, that was never mentioned on Sunday mornings.

 

But by the time you are involved enough to be going more times in the week, you already like the people and don't notice things the same way.

 

Where -- if they had been really upfront about everything on Sunday mornings, they never would have gotten so involved.

[shawthorne44]

I wouldn't see that as grooming behavior.   In fact, if the reverse was true, that the church had a dress code and he was encouraging the kids to violate it, that I would see as grooming behavior.  

 

But, he shouldn't be enforcing a non-existent dress code.  

[umsami]

I think when your Mama radar is pinging there is usually a reason...even if you can't describe it correctly.

 

I would honor that, no matter what.  If it were me, I'd just tell my DH to trust my instinct and let's find a different activity for DD to participate, etc.

 

On the modesty front, we looked at a local Islamic school for DD.  They were talking about how everybody got recess through 8th grade, which I liked.  Then I noticed that they wanted girls to start wearing a dark blue abaya (think full length, long sleeve coat/dress) plus hijab in 5th grade--which is like 10.  The boys all wore polos and khakis, comme d'habitude.  That really bugged me.  It's overly fundamentalist...and restrictive.  No girl can run around on the playground in that get up.  Heck, even in Muslim countries, girls don't wear stuff like that to school.   If an adult wants to wear it, more power to her.  But forcing it?  I went to the principal and showed him how pretty much every other Muslim school in Florida allows girls to choose a long tunic *or* abaya.  Nobody forces an abaya on girls...even the strict schools.  I said you were over sexualizing 10 year old girls for no reason, and there was nothing unIslamic about a long tunic and pants.  He never responded.  DD never went.  I'm OK with that decision.

Edited December 16, 2017 by umsami

[solascriptura]

The items you mentioned don't strike me as particularly predatory yet.  I do think that the actions of that man are unacceptable and I would first approach him directly.  Who does he think he is to single out  a young girl?  If he had a problem with her clothing (none of his business anyway) he should talk directly to you or your dh.  What I see is a patriarchal attitude that I find wrong and if this man is in any real leadership I would consider my next steps.  You may also want to talk to the pastor or staff anyway though.  Every church should have protocol in place in order to prevent any sort of sexual misconduct accusations. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I can’t imagine an adult program at a church that wouldn’t be appropriate for teens to attend. Unless it was a study on The Song of Solomon or something. One invitation to come would be fine in my book. But repeated invitations would not be because her attendance is really between the teen and her parents even if it as casual as “hey I want to go to thisâ€.

 

The dress thing is a boundary issue. It doesn’t have to be patriarchal necessarily or sexual grooming. When Ds was starting to grow a mustache in his early teens (he was more hirsute than his peers) a man kept telling him to shave. It wasn’t sexual grooming (though it was related to grooming!). Around the same time that man’a wife was badgering my Dd who had hair down to her butt, to cut it off and donate it to Locks of Love. I told the couple to stop trying to parent my kids. Problem solved.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G5052]

If it is grooming behavior, it's in the early stages from what you've seen. Of course there could be more you don't know about. Sometimes creeps like this won't ever go further.

 

I'd talk to the pastor, saying that you feel like there is something inappropriate to the way this guy acts.

 

Go with your gut!

[Guest]

From what’s been shared this may not necessarily be grooming behavior, but it definitely sounds like a lot of boundary crossing, which is enough to set off alarm bells in and of itself. First, it sounds like the guy is unilaterally assuming authority over kids and especially young girls with the invites to traditionally adult activities and the dress code. Both of these things represent disrespect for multiple boundaries. Then, when he addresses the tween girl without parents around - that is definite disrespect for parental boundaries/authority over ones own kid, not to mention the girls own boundaries. My mama bear instinct would be to tell him, politely, but firmly, that it is not ok to speak to my dd privately about anything, dress code or otherwise. In addition, the dress code and the mixing of kids into adult activities sounds creepy to me, so I would be investigating new churches too if these things were going to be the new norm.

[Laurie4b]

Agreeing with others that this does not sound like grooming. Don't go there on this evidence. If other evidence were to emerge you should know before you go to leadership, that you will likely be the one who ends up on the outs. That is a reasonable hardship to face I think when there is concern for young children at stake. But it is very, very unlikely, if you are the first one raising the issue, that you will not be attacked instead. 

 

Unless he took your dd someplace where they could not easily be seen in order to reprimand her, I don't see any grooming issues. Most grooming, in fact, is the opposite: kids love the guy grooming them, he makes them feel special, gives them gifts and special privileges, etc.) 

 

I would go with your dh and speak to the man first about circumventing the authority given to parents in the Bible and reprimanding your daughter. If he has any issue with your child in a public setting, he should come to one of the parents. 

 

Then I would go to the pastor and ask why he was allowed to set a dress code for adult women. Did that have the pastor's blessing? If it did, he may or may not have thought it through. After a discussion with him, if the pastor is supportive of a dress code for women,  then it's probably time to go if you don't subscribe to that type of thing. If the pastor was somehow unaware, ask him how he will assure that this won't happen in the future.  

 

And also report on the discussion you had with the man. (I advised going to the man first because most people in church leadership will insist that this be done before they will really discuss it with you. )  I would also ask the pastor how he plans to make sure this doesn't happen to someone else's child in the future. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ocelotmom]

"Grooming behavior" is a subset of inappropriate behavior. Something can be wrong without being grooming behavior. So trust your instincts - if it feels wrong, it likely is, even if it isn't traditional grooming behavior.

 

Inviting children to participate in a traditionally adult program.

 

I think that this absolutely can be grooming behavior, depending on the context.

 

Open invitation to all kids (or all within a particular age group)? Probably not grooming.

 

Invitation to one individual, or a select few, because they're special and mature? That would concern me more. Putting emphasis on someone's maturity can absolutely be grooming behavior. 

 

I also agree that a pre-teen breaking the dress code is better addressed with the parents than the child.

[MedicMom]

I agree that grooming behavior can be inviting children to an adult event, but not if it’s just opening up an adult event to children. OP didn’t sound like it was ONLY her dd who was invited but all the kids in the church. If it was ONLY her dd, and the dress code was only pertaining to her and this guy was then talking to her about skirt length, I would completely change my mind on this. But that’s not how it read.

 

I think it’s fine for churches to institute dress codes(not necessarily for attendees, but for those in leadership or performing in front of the church. For instance, I’ve attended churches where they wanted men who took the offering or were ushering to wear ties. I just have no problem with this.) You can attend elsewhere if you don’t like it. At my daughter’s public school she can’t wear a skirt above knee length. Maybe because that is our family standard anyway, it doesn’t bother me. Standards are fine; you don’t have to participate. And if someone was breaking the dress code, I would expect the adults to say something.

 

All of this just sounds so completely normal in my world.

Edited December 16, 2017 by MedicMom

[Bluegoat]

I've only read the OP.

 

These don't strike me as grooming behaviour.  I'm not into a dress code like that, but I don't see how it would be a grooming thing, lots of people believe in dress codes.

 

I find in a lot of discussions on the board, people will see something as grooming behaviour, and I will be  :001_huh: ?  I could see that someone grooming might do that, but so might a lot of other people. 

 

If I have a bad vibe from someone, I would just keep an eye on him.

[Aura]

Thank you all for your responses!

 

You're right, there are other things that are flags to me, and some gut reactions which are probably partly in response to flags and partly in response to my own history (and baggage). You're also right that "grooming" is probably not the best term. Flag raising and definite boundary crossing, though!

 

I have specific reasons for using that term, but I don't have time to go into that right now. I will come back later and try to explain that a bit more. 

 

Historically, this church has been very good about leaving specific standards up to families to determine. The church had "suggestions" but was very clear that standards, especially those such as attire, were the domain of individual families. There was certainly no "knee length" requirement! There has been some change of leadership, too, so I'm watchful of where that's going and how it's going to affect things. 

 

Nonetheless, you're right that it's not going to be productive to toss out terms like "predatory grooming" out and expect a receptive audience.

 

I did talk to dh about it this morning, and he agrees with the boundary crossing and will be speaking to the man. Dh also wonders how accurately dd has interpreted what he was saying and how much might have been influenced by the girls she's sitting and talking with (whose families have different dress standards than ours). Since dh is the one involved with the church and the one who goes with dd to this activity, he'll be better able to get to the bottom of this, which I'm happy about.

 

Okay, I've got to run. I'll try to check back in later today.

[gardenmom5]

If i'm understanding this correctly - he doens't exactly have authority at your church, but is just a member.  However - he is going around and deciding what is and is not appropriate behavior for other people and is telling them what they should be doing. 

 

i would address it to your pastor from the standpoint - the guy is undermining his own authority, by trying to take authority for the congregation.

 

that isn't a "nice man".

[Aura]

So here’s why I chose the terms I used. It wasn’t because I’m accusing this particular man of being a predator, it’s because where I see this behavior, taken in its entirety, could be going. It’s all about the progression and the lack of accountability and watchfulness on the part of those in leadership.

 

This is going to be a bit lengthy, so I hope you bear with me, and I hope I'm able to explain this adequately.

 

The first problem is not really a problem at all by itself. However, it’s the beginning. None of this would be an issue if the kids were not invited to participate as adults and treated as adults. To me, this in combination with other things, is characteristic of grooming, i.e. telling a child that they are more mature and capable of doing more adult things. But again, by itself, it’s nothing. It’s just the beginning.

 

The second problem is the modesty based dress code. This has not been an issue at this church before. It’s a distinct change from the way things used to be. And as far as I can tell, it was initiated by the same man, not the church or leadership in general.

 

To me, this is a very subtle movement. I know some members agree with his modesty standards. I know that many do not. The difference in opinions between varying members is one reason why modesty standards have been left up to individual families. The church has not dictated what is or is not modest, not even in this area.

 

Also, IME, modesty talks like these are inherently sexual. The entire way modesty is explained is about avoiding causing lustful thoughts in males.

 

So combine those two things and you have (1) one man initiating the inclusion of tweens in an adult environment and then (2) deciding to define modesty to this group and thereby introduce a sexual component to an area where it previously did not exist.

 

The third problem is that he then singled out my daughter to talk to her directly about her clothing. He could have talked to dh, who was there, just not in the same area. He could have asked any other adult woman to say something. He didn’t. He singled out a girl who is one of the few who does not have both parents attending this church regularly and the only one who does not have a parent sitting close by them.

 

Now, keep in mind that predators do not groom just the kids. They groom their communities as well. They gain access to kids. They establish their authority. They push the boundaries. They desensitize. They do this often done before ever approaching an individual kid. And ALL of this is EXACTLY what is going on.

 

Does this mean that this man is grooming anyone? Not necessarily. But it’s the path that’s being laid down. And now this man’s actions make him suspect, and as a leader in the church, he should be above reproach.

 

I see this as this man, the pastor, and the general leadership of the church not taking the problem of sexual abuse seriously, most likely adopting an attitude of “it can’t happen here.†But this man’s actions show that clearly it CAN. He’s literally showing how it can be done.

 

Step One: Gain access to kids. Introduce kids to an area that is seemingly safe. Start something new that doesn’t already have safety measures in place to protect the children.

Step Two: Establish his authority, both over kids and the adults. Take control over an area that was previously left to parents. Even better for him if he can bring in sexual undertones.

Step Three: Choose a vulnerable victim. Test the waters. Address the child directly and see what happens.

Step Four: What does he do next? Start desensitizing the kids and the adults to his being alone with kids? Seeing how far he can push things in a crowd? What will the parents allow? What will the church allow?

 

If it wasn’t for him approaching my dd individually and directly talking to her about what she was wearing and how it was immodest, this entire conversation would not even be happening. That one last step makes all the difference. When combined with the others, it becomes an issue.

 

This is what I want to say: “See? These actions are what predators do, and you’re allowing it! You’re even contributing to it! You’re opening your church and your youth to being groomed. You must be watchful of this. You must be on guard. You can’t pretend it’s not going to happen here or brush it aside because Mr. Man is a nice guy and would never do such a thing.â€

 

But bringing up terms like “grooming†and “predatory†does create a defensive atmosphere. I needed to talk it out in an impartial setting (the Hive) before jumping into something and just making everyone mad.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

So here’s why I chose the terms I used. It wasn’t because I’m accusing this particular man of being a predator, it’s because where I see this behavior, taken in its entirety, could be going. It’s all about the progression and the lack of accountability and watchfulness on the part of those in leadership.

 

This is going to be a bit lengthy, so I hope you bear with me, and I hope I'm able to explain this adequately.

 

The first problem is not really a problem at all by itself. However, it’s the beginning. None of this would be an issue if the kids were not invited to participate as adults and treated as adults. To me, this in combination with other things, is characteristic of grooming, i.e. telling a child that they are more mature and capable of doing more adult things. But again, by itself, it’s nothing. It’s just the beginning.

 

The second problem is the modesty based dress code. This has not been an issue at this church before. It’s a distinct change from the way things used to be. And as far as I can tell, it was initiated by the same man, not the church or leadership in general.

 

To me, this is a very subtle movement. I know some members agree with his modesty standards. I know that many do not. The difference in opinions between varying members is one reason why modesty standards have been left up to individual families. The church has not dictated what is or is not modest, not even in this area.

 

Also, IME, modesty talks like these are inherently sexual. The entire way modesty is explained is about avoiding causing lustful thoughts in males.

 

So combine those two things and you have (1) one man initiating the inclusion of tweens in an adult environment and then (2) deciding to define modesty to this group and thereby introduce a sexual component to an area where it previously did not exist.

 

The third problem is that he then singled out my daughter to talk to her directly about her clothing. He could have talked to dh, who was there, just not in the same area. He could have asked any other adult woman to say something. He didn’t. He singled out a girl who is one of the few who does not have both parents attending this church regularly and the only one who does not have a parent sitting close by them.

 

Now, keep in mind that predators do not groom just the kids. They groom their communities as well. They gain access to kids. They establish their authority. They push the boundaries. They desensitize. They do this often done before ever approaching an individual kid. And ALL of this is EXACTLY what is going on.

 

Does this mean that this man is grooming anyone? Not necessarily. But it’s the path that’s being laid down. And now this man’s actions make him suspect, and as a leader in the church, he should be above reproach.

 

I see this as this man, the pastor, and the general leadership of the church not taking the problem of sexual abuse seriously, most likely adopting an attitude of “it can’t happen here.†But this man’s actions show that clearly it CAN. He’s literally showing how it can be done.

 

Step One: Gain access to kids. Introduce kids to an area that is seemingly safe. Start something new that doesn’t already have safety measures in place to protect the children.

Step Two: Establish his authority, both over kids and the adults. Take control over an area that was previously left to parents. Even better for him if he can bring in sexual undertones.

Step Three: Choose a vulnerable victim. Test the waters. Address the child directly and see what happens.

Step Four: What does he do next? Start desensitizing the kids and the adults to his being alone with kids? Seeing how far he can push things in a crowd? What will the parents allow? What will the church allow?

 

If it wasn’t for him approaching my dd individually and directly talking to her about what she was wearing and how it was immodest, this entire conversation would not even be happening. That one last step makes all the difference. When combined with the others, it becomes an issue.

 

This is what I want to say: “See? These actions are what predators do, and you’re allowing it! You’re even contributing to it! You’re opening your church and your youth to being groomed. You must be watchful of this. You must be on guard. You can’t pretend it’s not going to happen here or brush it aside because Mr. Man is a nice guy and would never do such a thing.â€

 

But bringing up terms like “grooming†and “predatory†does create a defensive atmosphere. I needed to talk it out in an impartial setting (the Hive) before jumping into something and just making everyone mad.

 

1.  I come from a church tradition where kids or teens aren't necessarily segregated from adults so I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a church having activities that are only suitable for adults.

 

2.  Is the modesty dress code now instituted by church leadership?  Or is this man just doing it on his own?  I'm a bit unclear on this.  I agree with you that it crosses boundaries and would not be ok in my book.  I would address it differently though if it was a sanctioned dress code or if it was one man's mission. 

 

3.  As soon as he heard what happened,  your dh should have (or still should) confront the man about approaching your daughter instead of a parent. 

 

[MedicMom]

One of my problems with church is that teens and even preteens are treated as children. As long as it’s not something like a marriage conference, I prefer teens and preteens participate in adult activities.

 

I would have no problem with the dress code or the institution of one for an activity. I attended my children’s Christmas concert at the traditional Baptist Church they attend this morning. I don’t attend the church so I can’t really say anything, but I was surprised at what some of the teens were wearing(male and female). I guess I just still feel like there should be some measure of modesty and dress standards at church. I also know that I veer conservative with our dress, and I know many don’t share that. But like I said, not my circus, not my monkeys. It was just different than what I experienced in churches growing up(leggings, except under a dress or tunic, wouldn’t have been acceptable for standing in front of the church singing, for instance).

 

I would also be annoyed if someone singled out my daughter. He should have spoken to your husband.

 

I still don’t see any of this as predatory or grooming.

[marbel]

1.  I come from a church tradition where kids or teens aren't necessarily segregated from adults so I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a church having activities that are only suitable for adults.

 

<snip>

 

Same here. 

 

This is what I don't understand about the situation.  Unless the adult program has to do with material inappropriate for children, what's the problem with children being invited to join?    It's not just one child (your daughter), right?  

 

I agree with others about the modesty stuff; but I don't understand that because it has never come up in a church I've belonged to.  No one comments on how others dress.  

[Lecka]

I don't think it's that it *is,* as that it *could be.* It probably isn't, but I think we have a responsibility as adults to scrutinize the gray area.

 

A lot more is known since I was a child so I expect some things to be done differently than when I was a child.

[Word Nerd]

I don’t get the concern about including tweens/teens in “adult†church activities (what makes them suitable only for grown-ups?) and don’t think that is a warning sign of anything. Singling out your DD and presuming to take her to task over her dress, though, is absolutely not appropriate and needs to be addressed.

[SKL]

It is really hard to get a picture of this without more information.  What is this activity that used to be for adults only?  Is it Christmas caroling to the shut-ins?  Is it camping or traveling without the usual component of chaperones for the youth?  Is it volunteering with a homeless men's shelter?  It does matter in this context IMO.

 

I could understand a dress code for certain activities.  It should have been announced in advance, but maybe that was neglected by the leader or not heard by your daughter.  Correcting her does sound icky in general.  I don't know exactly why or how it was done though.  In my kids' situation, because they go to school at church and have male teachers and a male principal, I think it would feel normal for a male to make a dress code comment.  Now I'm wondering how they handle this with tween and teen girls.

 

How did this make your daughter feel?

 

I remember once around age 13 I attended church with an out-of-town family we were visiting, and I borrowed a pant suit since I had not brought church clothes.  (In my home church, I normally wore a nice pant suit.)   Upon entering or leaving, the greeter said, "you'll wear a dress next time, right?"  I was like, [to myself] there ain't gonna be a next time.  I found many of the dresses in church less "modest" than pant suits, but whatever.  Their church, their rules.  I would simply not choose to attend a church that had such a need to see my legs.  That said, my kids have always worn skirts / dresses to school and church - they prefer it, and I like the look.  Now that they are tweens, I do police the length, since they really do not notice that yet.  My 10yo is growing so fast that despite being clueless herself, she could appear to others to be inappropriate in certain clothes.

[LMD]

I totally get what you're saying Aura, and my daughter would probably not be back.

[Meadowlark]

I haven't read the other responses either-but I also don't see any alarm with the things that you wrote. Is there more going on? Mom intuition is one thing, but I also know that sometimes we overreact and see things that aren't there.