Need help w/visual processing speed, phonemic isolation

[Jenn in CA]

10yodd had testing thru the public school (she's hs'ed), but no IEP was determined to be needed. That was fine w/me, as I mainly wanted testing. She did better than I thought she would in many areas. The main areas of weakness were:

 

Phoneme isolation (5th %ile, CTOPP)

Rapid Letter Naming (25th %ile, CTOPP)

Processing speed (18th %ile, WISC-V)--did worse on visual proc.

Visual Spatial Processing--block puzzles (23th %ile, WISC-V)

Working Memory (27th %ile, WISC-V)-- did worse on visual working mem.

 

What could I do to help her w/the visual weaknesses? The phoneme isolation is a huge one too that needs to be shored up.... We do Barton. She does read fluently but slowly, and enjoys silent reading when she's found books she likes. The Ramona books are right at her level.

 

I have Seeing Stars, and I have Think Talk Laugh. I haven't started either one. Would either of those be helpful? 

 

Thanks for any ideas.

[Storygirl]

DS13 has very poor visual spatial processing (less than 1st percentile in block design). My understanding is that this is a disability or weakness that cannot be corrected, but can be accommodated with extra supports. https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/visual-processing-issues/understanding-visual-processing-issues

 

You can google and find a lot of suggestions for classroom supports.

 

I assume that since you are using Barton, you suspect dyslexia? That profile suggests dyslexia to me.

 

[exercise_guru]

Was an IEP not recommended because no diagnosis or disability met this criteria? Processing especially visual processing and dyslexia can be related to visual processing. I would go to someone who understand the visual processing system and make sure your child does not have convergence issues.

 

 

Maybe if you feel comfortable post some observations and what you noticed that encouraged you to have her tested. I know of one program that is for adults but I have a 10 year old that can do it. Its called BrainHQ( its an online subscription program so just search) and is very affordable at $14 a month. It doesn't give a lot of rewards and the interface is a bit plain but it definitely works on visual and auditory processing speed as well as working memory and general memory. You could try it because they allow you to cancel at any time. I actually find the games challenging. It also has some very good listening exercises that are similar to fast forword ( the same people invented BrainHQ) that would be very helpful in rapid naming.

 

I know that luminosity focuses a lot on visual processing and working memory. We haven't explored that because my sons weakness is all auditory. He remembers what he reads but not what he hears.

 

There are also some ipad programs that work on different areas like n-back etc. Any program like tetris etc where the child manipulates things in space is good. Angry birds anything like that. Also target tracking activities. There are some in BrainHQ but I am sure that there are many pad games that help with visual processing I just haven't researched it. The more they learn to focus and respond that is a good thing. I actually got my son a 3DS purely because he had convergence issues and the screen is small and at the same distance as a book. I don't let him use the 3D feature but I have read that mario games and old fashion games that sweep from left to right are very helpful for visual tracking. I will try to find the study.

 

For phonemic awareness and shoring up auditory working memory I have more ideas because that is our focus.

 

My son is doing FastForword through a private provider ( much more affordable) There are some good studies you could look to see if it targets the areas you need. My son is using it for auditory attention and auditory discrimination but it has a whole lot more to it than that.

 

There is another program called Hearbuilder($69) I think. Its quite affordable and has an entire section on phonemic and pattern recognition. We actual use that one for another section ----auditory memory. I really like that program.

 

I don't really know if any of this can really be remediated. I have read about the Arrowsmith school and brain plasticity but I am just not sure about processing and working memory. I do kow every study that tries to remediate a skill has a criteria of 30 minutes a day or more for 5 days a week for between 6 and 12 weeks or longer. So whatever you try even if It has a well constructed study backing it.. expect to try it for quite awhile be for you find out if it is helping.

Edited December 17, 2017 by exercise_guru

[Storygirl]

It is a good idea to have the eyes checked to see if there is an actual vision issue. You would want to go to a COVD, not a regular optometrist. We did do that for both my son with the visual spatial (and other) disabilities and my daughter with dyslexia. We didn't think the eyes were the problem for either of them, but we wanted to know for certain.

 

Vision therapy has been a little controversial, at least partly because there seem to be some doctors who find some reason to treat everyone who comes through the door. Ask around, if you can, to make sure you go to someone with a good reputation in your area.

 

Your daughter evidently scored well enough on the school testing to not qualify for an IEP and special education. But keep in mind that processing issues do have an impact on learning, as will the reading issues. If you ever decide to enroll her in school, you may want to ask for a 504, so that she can get accommodations in the classroom (such as extra time for testing, graph paper for math problems, speech to text or human readers for tests, etc.). You can find a lot of suggestions online. While homeschooling, you can use these kind of accommodations as well. Document what you do, so that you have a written record.

 

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

Here is the thing. The school did not find that she needs special education, but you as her homeschool teacher realize that she has learning issues and needs extra help. There is a reason that you are using Barton, and a reason that you wanted the testing.

 

It's likely that the school did not do enough testing to find the root issues of her problems. That's typical. They only have to figure out if she needs special education at their school. If she is able to keep up with peers, they won't offer extra help.

 

Obviously, she has been getting intervention level help from you at home (Barton and whatever else you are doing). What you are doing must be working! Whether the school sees it this way or not, the truth is that she has already been getting "special education" at home, and the reason that she did well on their school testing is that the extra support she is getting is working. That does not mean that she does not need the extra support.

 

Here is my point. If you think she is college bound, she will eventually need to function on her own in college classes. With (possible) dyslexia and other processing issues, she should qualify for help from the college disability office. And before that, she may qualify for extra time on standardized college entrance exams (SAT, ACT).

 

But the testing that the school ran is not going to be sufficient for proving that she needs these services. I would suggest that you would consider getting a more complete evaluation from an educational psychologist or neuropsychologist. I am a fan of the NP, because they have a higher level of expertise and may be more likely to sort out the root issues, but I know many people use an ed psych instead.

 

Colleges and the testing companies want those documents to be recent, so if you are only going to do it once, you will want to wait for the teen years -- within three years of college entrance, I believe.

 

The drawbacks to waiting are that you won't have a paper trail that is as authoritative. Having a documented history of learning issues is important, because the College Board evidently does not trust that someone who *suddenly* needs extra time at age 16 but didn't need it previously has a real need for accommodations on their testing (this is what I have heard -- we have not reached that point ourselves yet).

 

Also, knowing more fully what your child's strengths and weakness are can help you during homeschooling. If you have a good NP or ed psych, they can give you a big list of ways to accommodate and support her while learning.

 

We've had three of our four children tested by a NP, and in each case, we learned things that we had not suspected ourselves, and that the school testing (also done for 2 of the 3 kids) did not reveal to us. I have two kids with IEPs and one with a 504.

[Jenn in CA]

 

For phonemic awareness and shoring up auditory working memory I have more ideas because that is our focus.

 

I don't really know if any of this can really be remediated. I have read about the Arrowsmith school and brain plasticity but I am just not sure about processing and working memory. I do kow every study that tries to remediate a skill has a criteria of 30 minutes a day or more for 5 days a week for between 6 and 12 weeks or longer. So whatever you try even if It has a well constructed study backing it.. expect to try it for quite awhile be for you find out if it is helping.

 

EG, I would love any phonemic awareness ideas you have, esp. as would be appropriate for a 10yo who can read, just needs to keep working on it. I would love a book of those word ladders, actually, but haven't found one. Thank you for the names of the computer programs. I think she would really enjoy a computer game that helped.

 

That is what I've been wondering about the remediation. I want to help as much as I can. But how much does it really help. For as hard as reading, writing and spelling are for her, she seems to enjoy life pretty well, and I could see her as an adult, not great at academics, not loving reading, but figuring out how to get by and being fine with that. Is that bad??

 

Back story: This child went to Scottish Rite for dyslexia tutoring/therapy for the last 2+ years, we've been working on reading skills for a long time. Using Barton since late-1st grade. I have known since pre-K that she has learning issues: very poor phonological awareness, auditory memory, comprehension, vocab, remembering names & places.... For a long time, I thought she had an auditory processing disorder. Now, it turns out her visual processing/memory is actually worse. I don't think I realized it, because she couldn't read until just a few months ago.

 

[Jenn in CA]

Here is the thing. The school did not find that she needs special education, but you as her homeschool teacher realize that she has learning issues and needs extra help. There is a reason that you are using Barton, and a reason that you wanted the testing.

 

It's likely that the school did not do enough testing to find the root issues of her problems. That's typical. They only have to figure out if she needs special education at their school. If she is able to keep up with peers, they won't offer extra help.

 

Obviously, she has been getting intervention level help from you at home (Barton and whatever else you are doing). What you are doing must be working! Whether the school sees it this way or not, the truth is that she has already been getting "special education" at home, and the reason that she did well on their school testing is that the extra support she is getting is working. That does not mean that she does not need the extra support.

 

Here is my point. If you think she is college bound, she will eventually need to function on her own in college classes. With (possible) dyslexia and other processing issues, she should qualify for help from the college disability office. And before that, she may qualify for extra time on standardized college entrance exams (SAT, ACT).

 

 

This is super helpful, Storygirl. Thanks. I was thinking about future accommodations when I requested the IEP meeting/testing. I see your point about going to the NP, in the teen years. Really, I have not thought she would be interested in college, but she is an excellent gymnast and a college scholarship could be very likely. 

 

She is definitely dyslexic, I was hoping the testing would show me underlying reasons why, so I could give her extra support. You're right, the Barton and the hs'ing is working and I need to be encouraged by that even if the school doesn't thinks she needs extra support.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Jenn in CA

[Storygirl]

We've found that schools are not great at being able to explain the underlying reasons for learning issues. It can be a good place to get free testing to get the score reports but not a good place to get explanations. They assess to see if the student's scores qualify them for special education, and that's it, generally. They determine if there is a learning disability, but not why.

 

My cousin's wife is an educational psychologist working for a private organization. She says it is VERY common for parents to come to her with the school reports, to request additional testing and explanations, because they didn't get answers from the school.

 

 

[Kanin]

 

That is what I've been wondering about the remediation. I want to help as much as I can. But how much does it really help. For as hard as reading, writing and spelling are for her, she seems to enjoy life pretty well, and I could see her as an adult, not great at academics, not loving reading, but figuring out how to get by and being fine with that. Is that bad??

 

 

I have a boy like that in my class. I can see him as a very successful adult - very intelligent, great social skills, everyone thinks he's fantastic (because he is!). He's a terrible reader and speller... but if he can get by, I think he could be one of those dyslexic entrepreneurs you read about. 

 

If your daughter can function in day-to-day life, that is wonderful. If she's an okay but not great reader, though, she'll have to be good at using technology. Luckily, everyone is on their phones and tablets all the time... so a person with dyslexia using technology to get by will not stand out at all. She has to be REALLY good at using the tech, though... if any of it is laborious or confusing in any way, a student will just say to heck with it! and choose to bumble along rather than really take the time to do well. 

 

I think it's really important for a student with dyslexia to be able to talk about it and advocate for themselves. If she can somehow be proud of her strong points and really "own" having dyslexia, that will go a long way. Many college professors don't have a clue about dyslexia, so she'll have to be the expert. A real evaluation + diagnosis would be very helpful for that.

 

HBO's documentary Journey into Dyslexia is EXCELLENT. I highly recommend watching it, even if you have to buy it. The filmmakers interviewed a wide variety of people (college girl w/ dyslexia, middle-aged entrepreneur with dyslexia (who, by the way, cried when discussing his time in high school :-(, and more). It's really great! Might help you picture a teenager-college-aged student -adult with dyslexia. 

[exercise_guru]

Well first of all spelling isn't everything my husband has a PhD in chemistry. He is a terrible speller. Have your daughter keep a small spelling dictionary with her.

 

 

You could sign up for the hearbuilder free trial . I would start there because the visual elements are nice. My son likes the auditory memory because it doesn't feel babyish. I thought the phonemic was ok as well but the sequential seemed a bit young in graphics. My son might have rejected it.

 

He has topped out at level 6 that is the only thing he gets tired of repeating a level if it's at the top of his ability. Still trying to work on memory so we play games and will try the rest of hearbuilder after Christmas break.

 

I also really like playing who what when where cards because he reads one and then we answer the questions and then I read one at a lower level (because listening memory is weak for him) and he answers the questions. It keeps it short it's a good all around building activity.

 

What do you feel she loves or enjoys? Is she good at one area that is a suprise? You could build phonemes around stories with her interests. It excites the mind and gets it interested and increases retention. For awhile every phoneme and reading activity involved dogs because my son had a new dog and it just really motivated him. You know her strengths I would play to those. If she is good at telling a story I would scribe for her and then let her read it and edit it. My son had some areas that were strong on the Wisc so I planned activities that used his strength and then snuck in part of it hitting the weak area. My theory was that it would stimulate more areas and get those neurons firing.

 

For reading do you try to level reading? Our reading specialist told me to build speed they should read below level. To go up a level they should read books where they only need help with 5 words or less on a page. We mixed both. We slogged through reading for a long time and then the sky opened up and things started to gel. I just remember one day we were reading the level 2 book in all about reading and then boom.

 

My favorite early readers for girls that build speed or move up to a nice level are the magic kitten series, the Humphrey hamster series, ivy and bean..love over love that series. My kiddos both hated magic treehouse.

 

 

I loved the all about reading books because they built in phonics that went along with the phonemes groups. They were at a more reasonable level than the early chapter books and compelling. It's hard to find interesting stuff that wouldn't make a 10 year old irritated. I worked at the school library and we ordered a lot of highlow books . So good content with more readability. You could try your library for these many are nonfiction about animals etc but good reading.

 

I used Saxon phonics so I am not familiar with Barton we did phoneme groups. My son couldn't handle word ladders but he loved the make your own sound wheels. The ones you cut out of a book. We built every word wheel we could and I even made some.

 

I also broke the rules and used snap words for site words because he couldn't remember the rules from logic of english. We made up stories and colored the snap words. It helped him significantly and sped up his reading because under 3rd grade it's something like 60 percent of the page is a fry site word. This allowed him to focus on sounding out some.of the words and grabbing the fry words to build confidence.

 

The very best resource would be magnet letters with the phoneme groups. A lesson would take a long time in our house because my son wouldn't stop playing with them but they would be great for most kids. They allow you to build word groups on a magnetic board like ladders.

 

The last idea I have is review review review. Start each week by backtracking a bit because kiddos with poor working memory need to see something a lot to to get it into long term memory. Build things around context with stories and pictures. I know this isn't traditional stuff but after the third curriculum I had to break the rules. I look back now and I realize I had to splint that area that was weak and keep filling it in. I didn't know about Barton or Dyslexia.

 

My son had different challenges but he loves to read now and he loves for me to read at bedtime. RIght now he lays in the dark while I read "the best Christmas pagent ever"

 

This from a kid that said "why do they keep pushing flashcards in my face. I never want to see the word "the" ever again."

 

Do follow the other advice because there are some good suggestions above

I will say that things improved after vision therapy and retained reflexes. It didn't cure things but he made big gains.

 

 

 

 

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[exercise_guru]

I am sorry I rambled on and on but it occurred to me that some kids with dyslexia are great story tellers. Some are good listeners. I would push audio books,educational games, movies and scribing for your daughter as a way to shore up her language skills. Read fun stories outloud engage her language centers.

 

Then when she is reading and focusing on the letter part and overcoming the dyslexia part she will have a rich scaffold to fill in. I believe in working top down and bottom up. It will create a more positive experience and build her desire to overcome her challenge. No one likes to climb a mountain if it doesn't have a fantastic view at the top.

 

 

 

 

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