Help me understand diversity

[justasque]

...

ETA:  If 76% of the population is white, but only a little over 50% of the students in public education is white, I have to assume that many white children are in private or alternative education environments.  I know in my HS groups, most were white.

 

It is an age thing.  Older people in the US are more likely to be white than younger people, for all kinds of reasons.

 

These statistics say that non-hispanic white children under age 18 made up 53.5% of the children under age 18 in the US in 2010.  So around 50% of the public school population country-wide to be white is about what you'd expect.  Of course, the numbers at any given school vary widely, as our country is made up of a lot of very different areas.

 

For those of us who live in diverse areas, diversity is just normal day to day life.  For us, a lack of diversity is very visible and feels unnatural and uncomfortable, in the same way that a minority person stands out in a setting that is otherwise all white.

[Sneezyone]

There is also inherent value/benefit for a business, particularly a retail one, in having authentic representation/opinions from a wide variety of potential customer groups within its internal feedback loop.

 

Just in the last few months, you can point to the Pepsi Kylie Jenner ad, the country club car ad (can’t remember the manufacturer), the Dove skin changing ad, etc. for what happens when there are not enough people in positions of authority to say, ‘hey, this ad isn’t such a good idea because it is going to offend a large market segment!’

 

If you’re in the business of making money, these mistakes are both unhelpful and completely avoidable. As a consumer, these incidents scream ‘I have no idea who you are, let alone what appeals to you or offends you.’ As you can imagine, that message doesn’t make me kindly disposed to the products.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Laurie4b]

How does that work? Should they know from the start that they need 4 white women, 1 black woman and one medium toned woman? Idk why, but that feels icky to me.

 

Golly, it is not a quota system. It is about hospitality (letting people know clearly that they are welcome) and input (getting out of your own bubble.) And there is nothing icky about it. There is love and beauty about it. 

 

I will  give you a couple of personal examples. I used to be in charge of the children's Sunday school at a church . The job included included the children's part of the website, brochures, pictures on the walls, selection of books, etc. The church was somewhat diverse but majority white. 

 

Having been a foster parent to an African American child for a time, I had become aware of what the world looks like through those eyes.  In a majority white context people of color kind of scan the environment to see if there are signals that they are going to be welcome and fit in. Knowing that, I made sure that children of color were featured in photos on our website, our brochures, our hallway photos, etc. It was not a "quota" system but a  nonverbal "Welcome! You belong!"  I also actively sought the advice and participation of people of various ethnicities in the ministry . It was important for me to actively seek out gifted people of color   because in some cultures, people are not going to put themselves forward.  Seeking out people of color with the right gifts to be part of the team enriched the ministry immensely as they brought unique experiences and approaches to the ministry and we all learned from each other. There were teachers of all ethnicities and kids got to experience that, too.  I, and our church, would have missed SO much if there wasn't intentionality. 

 

In another context,   I am in the process of setting up a web page, etc. for my new business as a health coach. I plan to have photos on the pages to attract interest and want those photos to also "speak" to my potential clients about whether they might be a good fit as a client.  I want a potential client to look at my webpage and see herself somewhere on there. I've already got friends in mind of various ages, ethnicities, and body types  to ask if they'd let me photograph them for the website. Again, the point is " Welcome!  This service is one that would work for you!" It's said in pictures not words. If I had all photos of people who looked like me with regard to age , ethnicity, and body type, I would significantly limit my customer base. 

 

 

[MedicMom]

*waves* Hello from the upper Midwest. It's much more diverse now, but I think I was 10 before I ever met a non-white person. Her name was Monique and her family lived on our street for about a year before they moved away. There were two black students in my Jr. High. Neither of them went to the local high school, though. Oh, I forgot . . . one of the couples at our church adopted a little girl from Guatemala. That was pretty much it for racial diversity, if you don't count the difference between Scandinavian descent and other Northern European/British descent.

The PS my daughter attends has around a thousand students. There isn’t a single child of color in her entire grade. My kids literally do not know any POC. They are in no way sheltered, but the county we live in has something like 1.8% of the population who identify as an ethnicity other than Caucasian.

[SKL]

Golly, it is not a quota system. It is about hospitality (letting people know clearly that they are welcome) and input (getting out of your own bubble.) And there is nothing icky about it. There is love and beauty about it. 

 

I will  give you a couple of personal examples. I used to be in charge of the children's Sunday school at a church . The job included included the children's part of the website, brochures, pictures on the walls, selection of books, etc. The church was somewhat diverse but majority white. 

 

Having been a foster parent to an African American child for a time, I had become aware of what the world looks like through those eyes.  In a majority white context people of color kind of scan the environment to see if there are signals that they are going to be welcome and fit in. Knowing that, I made sure that children of color were featured in photos on our website, our brochures, our hallway photos, etc. It was not a "quota" system but a  nonverbal "Welcome! You belong!"  I also actively sought the advice and participation of people of various ethnicities in the ministry . It was important for me to actively seek out gifted people of color   because in some cultures, people are not going to put themselves forward.  Seeking out people of color with the right gifts to be part of the team enriched the ministry immensely as they brought unique experiences and approaches to the ministry and we all learned from each other. There were teachers of all ethnicities and kids got to experience that, too.  I, and our church, would have missed SO much if there wasn't intentionality. 

 

 

Part of me feels like it's dishonest when organizations post diverse photos on their websites though their actual population has very little cultural diversity.  When the website implies half of the group is poc and you get there and you're the only poc.  (Or you hear something is open to all, but you get there and you're the only white person and people are wondering why you're there.)

[katilac]

Reminder: we actually have no idea how big of a part social media followers played in the original contest. We are debating a hypothetical, not a known situation. 

 

 

 Also, while on the college tour, the staff usually gets the question and the honest answer is that poc are aware that full rides await, just as they do for private high school.  

 

 

Are you saying that colleges are stating that they are not diverse because people of color are getting so many full rides at other schools? Is that an actual thing you have heard come out of someone's mouth? Because if I heard that while visiting a college, I would think that person was batshit insane seriously out of touch with reality, and making excuses. It is true that poc who are also top students are going to be courted by schools seeking to increase diversity. That's very different from, if you're not white, a full ride awaits. 

 

To clarify, I do think that some schools are legitimately not going to be very diverse, but they need to be open about the real reasons, which do not include 'all people of color get a free ride at an expensive school.' 

 

The population is 95% white within 500 miles, and far away students are not dying to live in Podunk, Midwest. However, we do our very best to welcome diverse students, here are a few ways we do that . . . 

 

Some better worded version of that is likely true for quite a few colleges, and the reasoning seems sound to me (although I am not a person of color, so I may be missing something). 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by katilac

[Carrie12345]

It is an age thing.  Older people in the US are more likely to be white than younger people, for all kinds of reasons.

 

These statistics say that non-hispanic white children under age 18 made up 53.5% of the children under age 18 in the US in 2010.  So around 50% of the public school population country-wide to be white is about what you'd expect.  Of course, the numbers at any given school vary widely, as our country is made up of a lot of very different areas.

 

For those of us who live in diverse areas, diversity is just normal day to day life.  For us, a lack of diversity is very visible and feels unnatural and uncomfortable, in the same way that a minority person stands out in a setting that is otherwise all white.

 

Yup.  Our area had a lot of growth from the 80s to the mid aughts. Young families came running, not empty nesters.  They've shifted the demographic for 45 and under but all the old, white people are still here.  

 

Private school isn't a big thing in our area. We have a strong homeschool community, but not one large enough to tip the demographic all that dramatically.  Maybe by a percentage or two, at best.  My district has over 9,000 students.  I would be surprised to learn that we have more than 250 homeschoolers.

[mom@shiloh]

Thinking out loud here, and I haven't read all the replies since I'm short on time.....

 

I'm wondering why we assume diversity is only a matter of ethnicity.  Hear me out. As I said, I'm just thinking out loud. Wouldn't it be possible for a white woman and a black woman to be very similar in interests, preferences and opinions?  Wouldn't it also be possible for two white women to be complete opposites in those things?  When we make such effort to be 'diverse' by making sure a group is ethnically different, aren't we reinforcing stereotypes and helping to fuel a racist mentality?  

[mom@shiloh]

Part of me feels like it's dishonest when organizations post diverse photos on their websites though their actual population has very little cultural diversity.  When the website implies half of the group is poc and you get there and you're the only poc.  (Or you hear something is open to all, but you get there and you're the only white person and people are wondering why you're there.)

 

A college that some of my kids attended always includes ethnic diversity in the flyers that they send out, even though their population is 99% white.  So, if you have  five kids featured in the photos, there will be three white, one black and one Asian.  I think that if I was the black or Asian kid, I'd say, "Nope.  Stop using me."  

 

My very blonde, beautiful dd was one of the white kids in the photos, but I also have non-white kids and I don't think I'd want them to be 'used' in that way.

 

I understand that the college would welcome diversity, but it feels dishonest to me.  

[Bluegoat]

Golly, it is not a quota system. It is about hospitality (letting people know clearly that they are welcome) and input (getting out of your own bubble.) And there is nothing icky about it. There is love and beauty about it. 

 

I will  give you a couple of personal examples. I used to be in charge of the children's Sunday school at a church . The job included included the children's part of the website, brochures, pictures on the walls, selection of books, etc. The church was somewhat diverse but majority white. 

 

Having been a foster parent to an African American child for a time, I had become aware of what the world looks like through those eyes.  In a majority white context people of color kind of scan the environment to see if there are signals that they are going to be welcome and fit in. Knowing that, I made sure that children of color were featured in photos on our website, our brochures, our hallway photos, etc. It was not a "quota" system but a  nonverbal "Welcome! You belong!"  I also actively sought the advice and participation of people of various ethnicities in the ministry . It was important for me to actively seek out gifted people of color   because in some cultures, people are not going to put themselves forward.  Seeking out people of color with the right gifts to be part of the team enriched the ministry immensely as they brought unique experiences and approaches to the ministry and we all learned from each other. There were teachers of all ethnicities and kids got to experience that, too.  I, and our church, would have missed SO much if there wasn't intentionality. 

 

In another context,   I am in the process of setting up a web page, etc. for my new business as a health coach. I plan to have photos on the pages to attract interest and want those photos to also "speak" to my potential clients about whether they might be a good fit as a client.  I want a potential client to look at my webpage and see herself somewhere on there. I've already got friends in mind of various ages, ethnicities, and body types  to ask if they'd let me photograph them for the website. Again, the point is " Welcome!  This service is one that would work for you!" It's said in pictures not words. If I had all photos of people who looked like me with regard to age , ethnicity, and body type, I would significantly limit my customer base. 

 

I don't think this is what people are picturing that makes them feel it is icky.

 

What they are picture is a few advertising people in a room, maybe for a big ad campaign and saying "well, ok, we need to make sure we include a women in our Ford truck ad, or that there are representatives of three minority populations in our Coke ad, so that people feel that we value diversity, and we don't get called out for it.  Let's make sure we include a gay couple in out ad for frozen dinners.  Because I think with something like that, that's a lot closer to the reality.  

 

And while on the one hand, it seems like it's great that the ads would be reflective, it seems kind of like you are reducing these images, the actors or models even who apply for the job and are individual persons, to racial or ethnic representations.  "This one will be the white girl, this one the non-white boy, oh and we need a Muslim woman who covers her head as well."  

 

People recognize I think that maybe that kind of artificiality can be required in order to make sure representative images are shown.  At the same time, I think people also feel very aware that they are making choices about people because of their ethnicity or race, and that in the case of a commercial entity, it is even questionable how much they are really interested in the moral question rather than just using those images for profit.  

 

In the case where you are looking for bloggers who use the product, you already have a population of users that may skew into a fairly narrow demographic, and may also be a fairly small group.  It can start to seem even more personal when you begin to choose the representatives mainly because they represent certain ethnic, racial, or religious groups.

 

I don't think it's at all odd that this kind of thing may make people feel uncomfortable.  For that matter, I've heard actors comment that it makes some of them uncomfortable, even if they think it's overall a good thing.

[TravelingChris]

I am super adaptable.  I have lived (note Lived) in very diverse areas all my life.  I have never lived in a highly white area with no diversity.  ( I have vacationed in such places though) My or my sister's friends in elementary school included Bangladeshi, Indian, Guatemalan, Icelandic,  and regular American.  My neighbors were German, Palestinian Christians, Vietnamese, Jehovah Witness, rural south emigrees, and about a dozen other ways of diversity.  My contacts were with much more than every race- they were with different nationalities from every race and they have continued to be over the years.  Back then in the 60's and early  70's, there was both divisive movements and unifying movements.  My family taught me to be in the unifying movement.  Not to make everyone the same- not melting pot.  But rather a salad bowl.  Unlike many white people, I have worked in several places where I was the minority.  But I wasn't really.  Because in one workplace, where I was one of three whites and probably 40 blacks, I had much more in common with some of the black ladies than I did with the white lady with whom I had nothing in common, or the white guy who I also had nothing in common.  One woman shared my common career interests (this was not a career job, it was a survival job). One woman shared local political opinions and child raising ideas.  One woman shared the common bond of also being a military spouse who also was waiting to join her husband.     The military of course is diverse and so were the cities and areas we were stationed at.

[Lady Florida.]

*waves* Hello from the upper Midwest. It's much more diverse now, but I think I was 10 before I ever met a non-white person. Her name was Monique and her family lived on our street for about a year before they moved away. There were two black students in my Jr. High. Neither of them went to the local high school, though. Oh, I forgot . . . one of the couples at our church adopted a little girl from Guatemala. That was pretty much it for racial diversity, if you don't count the difference between Scandinavian descent and other Northern European/British descent.

 

I had a similar experience with religion. I grew up in an area of the Northeast U.S. with a lot of European immigrants and a good number of Puerto Ricans. Everyone in our social circle was either Catholic or Jewish. The only Baptists I knew were black kids I went to school with. I thought of Baptist as "the black religion". We then moved to South Florida just north of Miami, which had a similar demographic at the time (late 60s). 

 

I was 14 and in 9th grade when we moved to the city in Central Florida where I live now. I met a white Baptist and was genuinely surprised. 

 

My point is even those who think they live in a diverse area, as I thought I did in NJ, might actually be in a bubble without realizing it. 

[TravelingChris]

I had a similar experience with religion. I grew up in an area of the Northeast U.S. with a lot of European immigrants and a good number of Puerto Ricans. Everyone in our social circle was either Catholic or Jewish. The only Baptists I knew were black kids I went to school with. I thought of Baptist as "the black religion". We then moved to South Florida just north of Miami, which had a similar demographic at the time (late 60s). 

 

I was 14 and in 9th grade when we moved to the city in Central Florida where I live now. I met a white Baptist and was genuinely surprised. 

 

My point is even those who think they live in a diverse area, as I thought I did in NJ, might actually be in a bubble without realizing it. 

 

I grew up in DC area but DC and on the Virginia side.  In DC area, Jewish people mainly moved to Maryland then.  So I had Muslim friends and Muslims in school, but no Jews in elementary school and none that I knew of in Jr. High School. I knew Jewish adults including my great 2nd grade teacher but no kids.  So it was kind of strange to me when I moved to Fairfax County for high school and a boy in my French Class was being excused for Rosh Hashana.  I was Catholic back then and some other Catholic friends and I figured out that we can then get excused to go to Mass on Holy Days of Obligation.  So we would go as a group mainly to get out of class. Good memories.

[Sneezyone]

It may also mean that the cost of reaching your demographic is so high that at this time, its not possible without sinking the company. It took an act of Congress to run electricity out to rural areas. Internet similar. No hate against rural people, just could not generate enough revenue to cover the costs.

 

There is nothing expensive about achieving authentic representation for Dove or Pepsi. An essentially volunteer design team is not an expensive proposition either.

[Zinnia]

I live in a big city. I find that socioeconomic diversity is very difficult here, at least in an authentic, not "those people" sort of way. The density is just so high that my neighbors all have very similar means. I grew up in a much smaller town, and I miss that part of it.

 

But racial diversity, that we have. My oldest son goes to public school. It's considered a pretty white school locally, at 59% white.

 

And the city has a lot more political and religious diversity than where I grew up. I appreciate those things.

 

I like it when groups/businesses/whatever makes an effort to include more than just one type of people, whatever that type is. One note is boring.

[Carrie12345]

Thinking out loud here, and I haven't read all the replies since I'm short on time.....

 

I'm wondering why we assume diversity is only a matter of ethnicity.  Hear me out. As I said, I'm just thinking out loud. Wouldn't it be possible for a white woman and a black woman to be very similar in interests, preferences and opinions?  Wouldn't it also be possible for two white women to be complete opposites in those things?  When we make such effort to be 'diverse' by making sure a group is ethnically different, aren't we reinforcing stereotypes and helping to fuel a racist mentality?  

 

Of course it's possible for commonalities across "categories".  Representation still matters.

 

Gendered example:  My daughters are firefighters.  They have a lot in common with male firefighters.  Photos and articles devoid of female representation tick me off.  Not just because I have girls, but because of all of the girls and women who might never consider fighting fires because they don't see people like them doing so. 

"Ladies Auxiliary", otoh, gives the very strong message that that's where females belong.  (Our station doesn't use that term.)

 

What we see and hear DOES impact what we do.  That's pretty much the entire point of marketing, and not just for products.  When we don't feel included or recognized, we're likely to ignore something or get mad at/hurt by it.

 

Wanting people to be included is the polar opposite of fueling racist mentality.  Would you really say that putting actual female firefighters in pictures and articles reinforces stereotypes and fuels sexism?

[Daria]

This is part of their marketing plan.  I would imagine that they've done some market research and they know where their market share is solid, where it's smaller then they'd like, and where there's no hope.  They're not just looking at how many followers someone has on social media, they're looking at who those followers, and how they match up with their priorities for marketing.  If they're hiring multiple people, then they are also looking at how people's followers overlap, since the point might be to reach as many different people as possible.

 

The reality in this country is that social media can be very segregated, in so many different ways.  There are social media sites/groups/blogs that appeal primarily to parents (this one!), or to men, or Christians, or to people who are black, or to people of a certain age.  Most often, the people who are most successful on social media are writing to appeal to a group that they're a member of.  No company targets all of the same people, so no company is going to choose their social media representatives based simply on the number of followers.  If they did, can you imagine the failure?

Marketing feminine hygiene products on a blog read overwhelmingly by men?
 

Marketing "adult accessories" on one of those insanely popular youtube channels where people unwrap toys.  "Look it's a shopkin!  Look it's a . . . . "?
 

Marketing rosaries on a site that provides reviews of kosher foods?  

 

I don't think anyone would say that a company was discriminatory because it decided not to spend it's money on those kinds of things.  

 

Similarly, if a company has decided that they have a lot of brand awareness among young white women who consume social media, but they'd like to increase brand awareness among older white women, or Latina women of any age, or young black women, and so they select candidates who have experience in those markets, it's not discrimination.  It's the way that marketing works. 

[katilac]

Remember that private schools have missions and select their students accordingly.  It would be informative for  you to do some research.  You might start with where college prep poc go to high school in NYC, as thats easy to find. 

 

For me, it is a turnoff to hear that the school recruits by skin color rather than intellect, cultural, and socioeconomic diversity. Being a military brat, I have no interest in a school with such a narrow, shallow viewpoint of diversity.

 

I don't think that where college prep poc go to high school in New York City is particularly relevant to college diversity, and whether it's okay for a college to state that they lack diversity because all of the poc get free rides. When I return from vacation, I might look it up just out of interest, though! I find it hard to believe that most top students of color get a free ride to pricey high schools, but NYC might be an anomaly. 

 

I've  done a fair amount of research at the university level.  Again, what I see it that top students of color do get recruited and often get amazing offers from expensive schools, but there are many excellent students of color who are certainly not getting free rides right and left. A free ride at a top school generally includes grant aid, and certainly there are many affluent persons of color. 

 

I'd be interested in hearing the viewpoint of people who assisted students of color in the college process, either their own or others. I live in one of the most diverse areas of the country, and what you describe has simply not been my experience. 

[Carrie12345]

 

For me, it is a turnoff to hear that the school recruits by skin color rather than intellect, cultural, and socioeconomic diversity. Being a military brat, I have no interest in a school with such a narrow, shallow viewpoint of diversity.

 

 

I think we (general and posters) are throwing around the word "diversity" too... casually.  Like, a bag of Skittles is diverse, all the colors tossed together.  Simple definition.  Happy bag of Skittles. But the concept of intentionally fostering diversity is way more than making sure the bag is colorful.  It's a reminder to not sit there and eat all the red ones first because, for some reason, most people think the red ones are the best, and then leaving the yellow ones at the bottom of the bag because meh.  Except, you know, actual human beings.

 

POC are statistically, systematically, and often overtly overlooked even when they're right in front of us.  I'm not about to complain if a school wants to intentionally NOT do that, intentionally promote education to the underrepresented, and intentionally make it financially possible to do so.  I'm going to be happy for the end result, whatever the institution's motivation for doing so. 

 

Motivation is a big conversation in my house lately.  Dh has this whole thing about industries "doing the right thing" in order to keep their female customers/viewers/etc.  I don't give a steaming pile about their motivation.  Doing the right thing by women is doing the right thing by women, and I'll happily keep throwing my money at them in support.  Symbiosis.  Good begets good. 

 

The attitude of "This only happened because of pressure to fight against ____ism" disturbs me.  More often than not, it's really "This happened in spite of the realities of ____ism."  

 

Successful women in the business world haven't hurt my husband's career.  Successful POC in great schools isn't going to hurt my white kids' educations.  Make some room.  

[Carrie12345]

That is such a crazyg nuumber to me. There must be parts of the US where there are just no POC. That number is so very far off my every day reality

 

I grew up in a way white town. My graduating class was somewhere around 165. IIRC, we had 2 black students, 1 or 2 Latino students, and 1 or 2 Asian students in my class, and that was considered pretty diverse.  The 2010 census says the town was 91% white almost 8 years ago.  It might be *slightly lower today. I'm not sure.

 

The town was a resort location for the wealthy, famous, and influential at the turn of the century.  Uh, not the latest one, lol.  It stayed that way until the Depression. While it evolved into a suburban area after WWII, it definitely still held onto a bit of the yacht club mentality.  A high percentage of people raised there, stay there.  The population has been pretty static since 1970; 15,000ish for going on 50 years!  That doesn't exactly spark demographic change.

 

History absolutely, positively still influences location and correlating opportunities today.

[creekland]

I don't think that where college prep poc go to high school in New York City is particularly relevant to college diversity, and whether it's okay for a college to state that they lack diversity because all of the poc get free rides. When I return from vacation, I might look it up just out of interest, though! I find it hard to believe that most top students of color get a free ride to pricey high schools, but NYC might be an anomaly. 

 

I've  done a fair amount of research at the university level.  Again, what I see it that top students of color do get recruited and often get amazing offers from expensive schools, but there are many excellent students of color who are certainly not getting free rides right and left. A free ride at a top school generally includes grant aid, and certainly there are many affluent persons of color. 

 

I'd be interested in hearing the viewpoint of people who assisted students of color in the college process, either their own or others. I live in one of the most diverse areas of the country, and what you describe has simply not been my experience. 

 

I don't totally assist guidance counselor style, but I hear stories and plans from our seniors and those who return.

 

Our top students (almost always caucasian) get very good offers.  Our amazing students (happens once every 2-3 years on average) get super good offers from excellent schools - usually free rides.  Our soc fit right in with that.  They might need a few points less on standardized test scores to reach each level, but not oodles less.  Their GPAs match.  They are already our top students.  I've seen some of our soc (and caucasian students) do pretty darn decently with above average scores (but not outstanding scores) yet be unable to afford even state schools.  (We're in PA where schools are more expensive than most other places - 3rd highest cost on the last list I remember seeing.)

 

YMMV

 

Otherwise, I agree with Carrie that I LIKE seeing diversity enforced and happening - regardless of motivation from those who do it.  I don't care to see someone obviously unqualified getting a job over someone who is qualified simply due to color/gender, but that happens often enough to caucasian men/women (nepotism and bias), so I don't think it's any more likely to happen to poc.  It's wrong when it happens, period, but folks only like to point it out and complain when it goes against them (whichever way that is).  Just because it happens shouldn't mean we ditch a system that tries to make things more fair even if that system isn't perfect.  I'm glad more people are speaking up when they see it IRL.  That's a start.  It means more folks are paying attention and trying to make things better.

[Laurie4b]

Part of me feels like it's dishonest when organizations post diverse photos on their websites though their actual population has very little cultural diversity.  When the website implies half of the group is poc and you get there and you're the only poc.  (Or you hear something is open to all, but you get there and you're the only white person and people are wondering why you're there.)

 

I agree with this. It's misleading and false advertising. I think if a college wants more diversity and has only a couple representatives, then there are other ways to go about building it that involve actual interaction and outreach with for instance, high schools that are not majority white. If several non-majority students are recruited at the same time they will not feel so much like the "pioneer" (a role few people are comfortable taking on).