Help me understand diversity

[Moxie]

I promise, I’m just trying to wrap my head around what is right here.

 

A small company sells a product. It is an affordable product but not cheap. It is a luxury item, not in any way a need. Their customers are 100% women.

 

The company announces their 2018 design team. Basically, they get free stuff in exchange for posting about it on social media. The design team was chosen from women who applied to be in the design team. I’m guessing their number of followers was a big part in why they were chosen. The design team is 5 white women. I’m not sure what happened but there was an argument between the company and people on social media about there being no diversity. The company canceled the design team and apologized.

 

What is the right thing in this situation? If the applicants are picked based on the number of followers, should a ww with more followers be skipped over in favor of a woc with fewer followers in the name of diversity?

[scholastica]

I promise, I’m just trying to wrap my head around what is right here.

 

A small company sells a product. It is an affordable product but not cheap. It is a luxury item, not in any way a need. Their customers are 100% women.

 

The company announces their 2018 design team. Basically, they get free stuff in exchange for posting about it on social media. The design team was chosen from women who applied to be in the design team. I’m guessing their number of followers was a big part in why they were chosen. The design team is 5 white women. I’m not sure what happened but there was an argument between the company and people on social media about there being no diversity. The company canceled the design team and apologized.

 

What is the right thing in this situation? If the applicants are picked based on the number of followers, should a ww with more followers be skipped over in favor of a woc with fewer followers in the name of diversity?

 

Since we don't know for sure how the design team was picked, it would be impossible to answer this question. 

[creekland]

I'd prefer diversity because if they are creating designs to appeal to all women, those with other backgrounds (or needs or whatever) should have a voice.

 

Be careful using pure numbers of followers to determine who has the better audience.  Seems to me since the numbers of the various races of folks in the US is not equal, percentages would give a better idea of how much representation is there.

 

If I look up the most cars in the US I can easily see California winning:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/196010/total-number-of-registered-automobiles-in-the-us-by-state/

 

But that's merely because their population is so high.

 

If I google it by vehicles per capita, Montana wins and CA is in the bottom 10:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_vehicles_per_capita

 

Should Montana or California get the most say in new vehicle design?  I'd say both, as chances are, they'll prefer somewhat different designs to fit their locations.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I would wonder a few things:  

 

Let's assume the company used a color-blind method to hire their team.  Essentially, they took their applicant pool, threw out the obviously unqualified, then took the top X people based on follower count for the team.  

 

In a sense, this is fair.  

 

It seems short-sighted though.  I would guess women who do not themselves represent diversity are probably also fishing in the same pool for followers.  A woman who is ethnically different may actually bring more *unique* followers to the game.  So I'd want to know if they looked at total followers or unique followers, as I'm guessing there is a lot of double-dipping amongst people who are all working in the same market.  

 

Finally, what the heck does design have to do with follower count?  What are these women actually designing?  Maybe I just don't even understand the definition of that word anymore, because in my mind, design expertise would require some degree of upper-level education in design, not a flashy social media  profile...  

[Guest]

They design the posts they put up.

[regentrude]

Selecting this "design team" is a marketing strategy and advertising tool. It does not sound as if these are actual designers and employees, but private persons who hype their product via social media. Thus, any laws about employment and discrimination do not apply to the situation.

 

The company will have decided that ultimately their reputation and sales would benefit more from increasing the visible diversity of this "design" team than from choosing the white women with lots of followers.  That's all there is to it.

Edited December 14, 2017 by regentrude

[Laurie4b]

If the company wanted to expand the number of its customers, it was a dumb move on many levels.

 

Level 1: It gives incomplete input to the company limiting outreach to a broader customer base. Unless a product is for a specific ethnicity (such as some cosmetic products) then creating a design team composed of people all of one ethnicity essentially guarantees that your product will be limited to that ethnicity and will not expand. Let's shift it away from ethnicity for a minute and pretend it's a product that can be used by people of many ages and the company chooses a design team made up only of millennials  or a team only of seniors--do you see how that is going to affect the way their brand is viewed? What would appeal to seniors about the product may not be the same thing that appeals to millennials about the product. Unless they are professional marketers, people will know their own demographic best and will tend to assume that what appeals to them will appeal to everyone, KWIM? 

 

So back to ethnicity: if your product is not ethnicity specific wouldn't you want input and advertising from a wide range of ages and ethnicities? If so far you've attracted only white business (the bloggers with the highest number of followers)  doesn't that tell you that you are missing several markets? 

 

If it were my company, and I wanted to expand my market through the design team concept, I would go looking for bloggers of various ethnicities with the number of followers I had in mind. 

 

The fact that it apparently didn't cross their minds shows a real blind spot. 

 

Level 2:The homogenous composition of the team in and of itself communicates a message to potential customers telling them whether they are or are not potential customers. imagine seeing a company in which the entire design team looks the same and not like you. It's a clear message that you're not a potential customer. 

 

 

ETA: the fact that the "design team" will be designing their posts (ie doing marketing) underscores point 1) 

ETA: typo

Edited December 14, 2017 by Laurie4b

[katilac]

I’m guessing their number of followers was a big part in why they were chosen. 

 

 

You're guessing, you don't actually know or really have any idea. 

 

I wouldn't work too hard on wrapping my mind around a situation that may not have even happened. Yes, we could discuss it as a hypothetical, but that would be lost by page 2 of the 167 pages of discussion, lol. 

 

I wouldn't want to fuel the fire of having people believe these five women lost an opportunity unfairly, when we actually have no idea whatsoever if their number of followers was a primary factor. 

[DawnM]

Interestingly enough, 72% of the US population is white.  African American is the 2nd largest group, and they only comprise of (close to) 13%.

 

This is all according to the 2010 US Cencus:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

 

Just thought I would throw that out there.

 

I get it that advertisers should target all audiences, but the majority of the US is indeed white.

[vonfirmath]

I know of two groups that have "Design teamS" -- which, yes, is more of a marketting team. They want people who are already putting out blogs/videos/other social media type stuff to generate interest in the product. They send those people a box of products ahead of time and expect them to get reviews up ahead of the launch of the product. I think there is also the understanding they will continue to regularly post about the product in whichever social outlet they had already been doing so -- I'm most familiar with Youtube and Blogs but I know some do things on different platforms as well so sometimes there are names on design teams I'm not familiar with at all because I don't participate in their worlds.

 

[momacacia]

Maybe only white women applied to the design team. Maybe the company assumes (logically) that those with the most followers will get the most social media eyes on their products and hence the most ad bang for their buck. Reality is, the company is probably making the best marketing decision they believe they can make.

 

Bottom line is, "we're not sure what happened."

[SKL]

Interesting.  I wonder what this teaches us about social media.

 

I think they probably had no idea going in that there was going to be a racial effect to their program.  The people who won it should get something if they followed the rules in good faith.  They could change how it's done for the future.

 

Glad I'm not in that field.  I personally am uncomfortable with the idea of selecting based on race, including designing a program that ensures a quota by race.  But you can't please anyone no matter what you do.

[SKL]

In my narrow universe on facebook, I'm thinking of the demographics of who pushes products online, and I can't think of any of my woc friends who do that.  I do have some white woman friends who do.  Maybe there is some cultural reason for that.  Do woc not like that kind of marketing, are fewer of them on fb, do they post less often on fb or have fewer fb friends?  Was there some reason woc were less aware of the contest?

 

Personally fb marketing annoys me, but it's not up to me to decide how companies market their stuff.  Like anything else, marketers have to learn as they go with changing technologies and interests.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SKL

[poppy]

So some women of color said "I feel ignored, that's not fair."

 

And some white women said "You're right, let's rethink".

 

And some white women said "Sucks that if they can't have it, no one can, that's not fair."

 

Who you choose to side with in the "that's not fair!" says a whole lot about you, I think. 

 

At least that's the case with many things.  With this small a sample size, and not knowing what the product is (is it hair care? Or is it fancy pen?), hard to say in this case.

 

[Bluegoat]

If I had to take a guess, I'd say they didn't really even think about it one way or another.  It may be there product has a particular demographic base - that's not that unusual even when the product isn't innately meant for one type of person.  If that's true, that five bloggers happen to be white, isn't really that far out you might have mostly white women applying for the position, it's a small sample size.

 

I'd be really surprised to find out they deliberately chose not to use a group with more ethnic diversity.

 

If they are looking to expand their appeal, I guess that it might make sense to find some other representatives too, but it may be that isn't the goal - perhaps they are looking for away to make people who are already customers aware of their new product lines, or something like that.  

 

It seems a bit naive given the climate at the moment.  But - there is also something about the calculated use of ethnic diversity at the moment that often seems rather unsavoury to me, whether it's to sell products or legitimize ideas.  

[HomeAgain]

This is something that is actually hitting close to home here.  Last week there was a giant article in the Boston Globe highlighting the lack of diversity in their city, and being named the most racist city in America on various comedic sketches.  They drove home some hard points:

 

-colleges have had the same percentages of non-white students for the past 40 years, when the first poll was taken. (4%)  BTW, you would think the college that MLK jr. went to would encourage diversity more.  Nope.

-the city panel of business people has 0 people of color on it, same as 40 years ago.

-the tourism department and colleges do not encourage diversity by having doing ads that are made up of almost white people entirely.  The tourism for a major city.  All white people.

 

The list went on and on.  Nothing had changed in 40 years, even though there are diverse neighborhoods - but those are being taken over with condos and gentrification.  PoC are putting together events where they reserve a restaurant or bar for the night so that they can find others who look like them.

 

 

Representation matters.  If you do not see any sign that you belong there, people often think they don't.  If you sell a product, and you aim it at only white women, intentionally or not, then don't be surprised when people wonder why and point out the blindness.  If a product is trying to aim itself at all women, and receives feedback that it's failing in that matter, they would do well to consider it and change their approach.

[Laurie4b]

If I had to take a guess, I'd say they didn't really even think about it one way or another.  It may be there product has a particular demographic base - that's not that unusual even when the product isn't innately meant for one type of person.  If that's true, that five bloggers happen to be white, isn't really that far out you might have mostly white women applying for the position, it's a small sample size.

 

I'd be really surprised to find out they deliberately chose not to use a group with more ethnic diversity.

 

If they are looking to expand their appeal, I guess that it might make sense to find some other representatives too, but it may be that isn't the goal - perhaps they are looking for away to make people who are already customers aware of their new product lines, or something like that.  

 

It seems a bit naive given the climate at the moment.  But - there is also something about the calculated use of ethnic diversity at the moment that often seems rather unsavoury to me, whether it's to sell products or legitimize ideas.  

 

It is not necessary that they are intentionally excluding.

 

If you are not intentional about being inclusive, you will by default end up being unintentionally exclusive. 

[SKL]

So some women of color said "I feel ignored, that's not fair."

 

And some white women said "You're right, let's rethink".

 

And some white women said "Sucks that if they can't have it, no one can, that's not fair."

 

Who you choose to side with in the "that's not fair!" says a whole lot about you, I think. 

 

At least that's the case with many things.  With this small a sample size, and not knowing what the product is (is it hair care? Or is it fancy pen?), hard to say in this case.

 

It would be interesting to know for sure whether it was women of color or white women who complained about the lack of diversity.  It's not clear in the OP.

[Guinevere]

Interestingly enough, 72% of the US population is white. African American is the 2nd largest group, and they only comprise of (close to) 13%.

 

This is all according to the 2010 US Cencus:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

 

Just thought I would throw that out there.

 

I get it that advertisers should target all audiences, but the majority of the US is indeed white.

So are you saying that businesses and colleges and etc would be reasonable to hire/admit 76% white, 13% black, and the remaining minorities as they are represented in the total population?

[DawnM]

So are you saying that businesses and colleges and etc would be reasonable to hire/admit 76% white, 13% black, and the remaining minorities as they are represented in the total population?

 

I am not stating anything with any definite anything.  It absolutely depends on who your target audience is.  I am just saying that often times we want each race represented equally, but that isn't how our nation's race representation really looks.

[Bluegoat]

This is something that is actually hitting close to home here.  Last week there was a giant article in the Boston Globe highlighting the lack of diversity in their city, and being named the most racist city in America on various comedic sketches.  They drove home some hard points:

 

-colleges have had the same percentages of non-white students for the past 40 years, when the first poll was taken. (4%)  BTW, you would think the college that MLK jr. went to would encourage diversity more.  Nope.

-the city panel of business people has 0 people of color on it, same as 40 years ago.

-the tourism department and colleges do not encourage diversity by having doing ads that are made up of almost white people entirely.  The tourism for a major city.  All white people.

 

The list went on and on.  Nothing had changed in 40 years, even though there are diverse neighborhoods - but those are being taken over with condos and gentrification.  PoC are putting together events where they reserve a restaurant or bar for the night so that they can find others who look like them.

 

 

Representation matters.  If you do not see any sign that you belong there, people often think they don't.  If you sell a product, and you aim it at only white women, intentionally or not, then don't be surprised when people wonder why and point out the blindness.  If a product is trying to aim itself at all women, and receives feedback that it's failing in that matter, they would do well to consider it and change their approach.

 

So I am wondering about this.

 

Why reserve the place?  If that is going to work, they must already be coordinating people showing up for these reservations.  So why not just coordinate showing up? - there would still be finding people who look like themselves, but it would also be open to anyone and actually diverse, and you'd have actual mixed events.  Maybe it would start something.

 

It kind of seems like by creating separate events you could easily end up with an environment where people feel they need to somehow segregate themselves, which doesn't seem like a great result.

 

I think businesses can be put in a difficult position with this kind of thing - it reminds me of something that went on here.  There's an area I used to live in which was for many years considered a black area - though the population was probably more like 50% - but in the last while it's really becoming gentrified even though there is still low-income housing, and the make-up of the people living there has changed in a few ways.  Anyway - lots of new, hip businesses have moved in which hasn't been totally positive for any of the people in subsidized housing.  Almost all of the businessesm are owned and used mainly by well-off white patrons, and they tend to hire white students, and there have been complaints about their staffing and customer base from the black population.  

 

The thing is, the business owners aren't looking for that - a lot of them have tried to hire locals, and encourage them to come in, but mostly not with much luck.  Wanting a diverse community was actually a big reason those people wanted to move into that part of the city.  Partly this is a money thing - most of the businesses are not serving the poorer population that was there before and have displaced businesses that were.  

 

But also, individuals feel hesitant to just come into a place where everyone looks different, as you say.  One guy wrote a newspaper article where he was upset that the owners seemed too happy to have a local PoC in the cafe when he met a friend there -  and it made him uncomfortable. Which I would be myself, so I get that, but they weren't being weird according to his description, just trying to be welcoming.

 

What I keep coming to with this is - what is it that can happen that would improve things?  Presumably it's good that the business owners want diversity in their clients, and are happy to see it, but I'm not sure we should just tell people to act blasé whenever dealing with someone of a different ethnicity, just in case.  That seems like a recipe for awkwardness.  And you can't make people come in so that the clientele starts to reflect local diversity, or hire people who don't apply.  Ultimately, someone has to choose to step through the door, or submit a resume.

 

Reserving events for particular ethnicities, as a solution seems to me like it would actually reinforce boundaries all round.

[justasque]

... I personally am uncomfortable with the idea of selecting based on race, including designing a program that ensures a quota by race.  But you can't please anyone no matter what you do.

 

But if advertising is the goal, having more complex criteria that attempts to reach out to more customers would legitimately include strategies to reach different groups of people, rather than assuming  one-size-fits-all approach.  If my top five responders are all 30-something Mormon moms in Utah, that's going to reach a different group of people than if my top five include a Mormon mom in Utah, a young, black NYC fashionista, a crunchy-but stylish empty-nester in rural Tennessee, an edgy Jewish guy in Los Angeles, a hipster gal in the PNW. 

 

Think, for example, of the Mood Fabrics bloggers - pretty diverse, in lots of different ways, so there's more chance there's one you can relate to, so more chance you'll be inspired to buy their fabric. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by justasque

[Bluegoat]

It is not necessary that they are intentionally excluding.

 

If you are not intentional about being inclusive, you will by default end up being unintentionally exclusive. 

 

I don't really know what you mean by "not necessary."  I  don't think we can see what the nature of the situation is unless we know why it happened that way.  

 

For example - what do we mean by inclusive here?  Are we talking about the marketing of the product?  The image the product has?  The group of people who are the actual customers?  Does a company have a responsibility to try and make sure their actual customers represent ethnic, or other kinds of diversity?  That seems like it could be a bit odd, especially if they are a fairly small or local enterprise.  Do they have a responsibility to try and market outside their customer demographic?  Maybe?  Do they need to create an image that signals that they approve of diversity?  That kind of seems to be the implication, they need to create an image that sends certain signals.  That might be good, though it could also seem kind of like using a political/social cause to sell a product, and I can see why people might not like that approach.

 

While an accusation that they deliberately are looking to exclude ethnic diversity is bad on the face of it, I'm not sure that is necessarily so where it isn't - for all we know they might have drawn the names out of a hat.  The OP doesn't give a ton of information about the company., so I can think of some different scenarios.

[Carrie12345]

So are you saying that businesses and colleges and etc would be reasonable to hire/admit 76% white, 13% black, and the remaining minorities as they are represented in the total population?

 

Lots of variables can be put into play, but I don't think you can compare (what I assume to be) a national campaign to a more localized institution.  My school district is 53% "minority", so I would not call 76% white hiring "reasonable" here.

 

(I use school district stats because our total demographics lean heavily white for the retired or near-retired population, skewing the picture.)

[DawnM]

Lots of variables can be put into play, but I don't think you can compare (what I assume to be) a national campaign to a more localized institution.  My school district is 53% "minority", so I would not call 76% white hiring "reasonable" here.

 

(I use school district stats because our total demographics lean heavily white for the retired or near-retired population, skewing the picture.)

 

My last district was only 10% white.  It was 75% Latino.  I have been in public education for 30 years.  

 

This article was interesting:

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/03/student-teacher-demographics_n_5738888.html

 

And a quote:

 

but teachers of color are quitting at higher rates than their white counterparts. Part of this, the researchers note, may be because minority teachers are more likely to work in high-poverty, hard-to-staff schools where teachers are given little autonomy.

“While minorities have entered teaching at higher rates than whites over the past two decades, minority teachers have also left schools at higher rates,†Ingersoll and May wrote in a 2011 report. “Overall, the data show that minority teachers’ careers have been less stable than those of white teachers, and included more job transitioning. In recent years, minority teachers were more likely to migrate from one school to another or to leave teaching altogether.â€

 

ETA:  If 76% of the population is white, but only a little over 50% of the students in public education is white, I have to assume that many white children are in private or alternative education environments.  I know in my HS groups, most were white.

[sassenach]

It’s not a democratic process. It’s a business. Even the “design team†is a strategic marketing move. They are creating an image for themselves and should have thought that one through.

[Tanaqui]

Also, while on the college tour, the staff usually gets the question and the honest answer is that poc are aware that full rides await, just as they do for private high school.

 

...most students are not going to qualify for "full rides", no matter what their race. That's not the problem, but if the college is claiming that IS the problem then they're giving a bit hint as to what the problem probably IS.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Tanaqui

[poppy]

The right thing is to publish the criteria in advance and stick with it. If you want to pick winners based on the qualification of skin tone, you are going to turn off as many people as you turn on. Skin tone has nothing to do with the job and thinking one could pick 5 people who could represent all of America..gosh you need people whose gps were biracial, mixed marriages and so forth.

 

I'm not seeing colleges are not diverse. The diversity is in other characteristics. Also, while on the college tour, the staff usually gets the question and the honest answer is that poc are aware that full rides await, just as they do for private high school. Hard for the colleges whose endowments don't allow for a full ride to compete. In the meantime, lots of international students who offer a lot more different viewpoints than the kids from the 'burbs who didn't mix at lunch in their diverse high schools.

I am pretty astonished to find someone this week of all weeks taking about ‘skin tone’ as if race didn’t exist or affect anyone. I am gonna guess this poster is white . Pretty safe bet .

[Guest]

So some women of color said "I feel ignored, that's not fair."

 

And some white women said "You're right, let's rethink".

 

And some white women said "Sucks that if they can't have it, no one can, that's not fair."

 

Who you choose to side with in the "that's not fair!" says a whole lot about you, I think.

 

At least that's the case with many things. With this small a sample size, and not knowing what the product is (is it hair care? Or is it fancy pen?), hard to say in this case.

Fancy pen.

[creekland]

I see this as two different scenes.

 

If it's a contest situation with rules stating what the criteria is for winning (even lottery style), then nothing else should matter except those who ended up at the top get the spots.

 

If it's a marketing deal, then the company should be trying to get a design team that matches who they are trying to get to buy their product.  If that's a single gender/color/age/etc, then stock the team with those folks.  If a more diverse clientele is there (or wanted), then stock your design team appropriately.

 

It honestly doesn't seem like that big of a question to me.

[Bluegoat]

I see this as two different scenes.

 

If it's a contest situation with rules stating what the criteria is for winning (even lottery style), then nothing else should matter except those who ended up at the top get the spots.

 

If it's a marketing deal, then the company should be trying to get a design team that matches who they are trying to get to buy their product.  If that's a single gender/color/age/etc, then stock the team with those folks.  If a more diverse clientele is there (or wanted), then stock your design team appropriately.

 

It honestly doesn't seem like that big of a question to me.

 

This is my thinking.  I've seen these kinds of things done as promotions, and they tend to be a kind of contest where their customers are the entrants.  To vet the contest by race or ethnicity or whatever would, I think, be fraught.

 

As far as marketing, it isn't necessarily bad IMO to reflect your customers in advertising.  I don't think it's always the right choice either - it would depend on a few different elements, and probably there isn't a single correct answer.

[poppy]

Fancy pen.

Ah so more ‘how we want to market ourselves ‘ than ‘how the product functions’. Small businesses do err on the side of caution when it comes to potential negative feedback . Which is one of the reasons I’d be a terrible salesperson - you need skilled diplomacy which is not my strong point !

[Guest]

It is not necessary that they are intentionally excluding.

 

If you are not intentional about being inclusive, you will by default end up being unintentionally exclusive.

How does that work? Should they know from the start that they need 4 white women, 1 black woman and one medium toned woman? Idk why, but that feels icky to me.

[creekland]

How does that work? Should they know from the start that they need 4 white women, 1 black woman and one medium toned woman? Idk why, but that feels icky to me.

 

You are associating this totally with skin color.  Diversity is so much more than that, esp if looking for sales.

 

They would not be looking at quotas as much as who can represent them in different areas they want to market in.  Think of it more like regions, but not just geographical regions.

[Bluegoat]

How does that work? Should they know from the start that they need 4 white women, 1 black woman and one medium toned woman? Idk why, but that feels icky to me.

 

 

You are associating this totally with skin color.  Diversity is so much more than that, esp if looking for sales.

 

They would not be looking at quotas as much as who can represent them in different areas they want to market in.  Think of it more like regions, but not just geographical regions.

 

 

 

Except that it does kind of seem to be what they mean by diversity in this case.  No one seems to have complained that there isn't enough religious or political diversity.  My impression from the OP was that it was racial diversity specifically.

 

I think a lot of people want a reflection of diversity in general in media, films, etc, but also feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of quotas or how to make that happen concretely.  For me, I find that it doesn't bother me so much with something like a public information message, but it seems a bit icky when people are trying to sell me something - like those adds with people of different political backgrounds enjoying products together after having heartfelt discussions.

[Sneezyone]

In my narrow universe on facebook, I'm thinking of the demographics of who pushes products online, and I can't think of any of my woc friends who do that.  I do have some white woman friends who do.  Maybe there is some cultural reason for that.  Do woc not like that kind of marketing, are fewer of them on fb, do they post less often on fb or have fewer fb friends?  Was there some reason woc were less aware of the contest?

 

Personally fb marketing annoys me, but it's not up to me to decide how companies market their stuff.  Like anything else, marketers have to learn as they go with changing technologies and interests.

 

My sister, a WoC, is a social media influencer and does get solicited to advertise products and brands through various platforms. The latest was eyeglasses. Because, yes, black Twitter users wear eyeglasses too. My mom is also a prolific scrapper (paper) and I digiscrap. If you're looking to expand into non-traditional markets or areas where your products are underrepresented, it makes no sense to stock your influencer team with folks who represent a target demo that you've already saturated. Getting that kind of diversity tho is not going to come from a contest within your existing customer base. You have to go and FIND people/influencers within underrepresented consumer segments, people who do indeed have thousands of followers (who also have disposable income) and ask them to join your team. This company could simply have solicited those influencers and added them to the team.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Sneezyone

[vonfirmath]

My sister, a WoC, is a social media influencer and does get solicited to advertise products and brands through various platforms. The latest was eyeglasses. Because, yes, black Twitter users wear eyeglasses too. My mom is also a prolific scrapper (paper) and I digiscrap. If you're looking to expand into non-traditional markets or areas where your products are underrepresented, it makes no sense to stock your influencer team with folks who represent a target demo that you've already saturated. Getting that kind of diversity tho is not going to come from a contest within your existing customer base. You have to go and FIND people/influencers within underrepresented consumer segments, people who do indeed have thousands of followers (who also have disposable income) and ask them to join your team. This company could simply have solicited those influencers and added them to the team.

 

My experience with this kind of design team is that they want people ALREADY using their products. They do not want people who may or may not care about their products to come in and start blogging about them just to get free stuff.  So they look for their design team among people who are already doing what they want them to continue doing with some official sanction.

 

There are places to send product in exchange for a review of that product in a new location, but that is not the goal of this sort of design team.

 

So if your relatives already used fancy pen brand, they'd love to have them apply to the design team. But for this, they are not going to go out and ask your non-fancy pen using relatives to apply for this. They want those who already have the excitement and have shown they have the excitement about it.

 

(The two brands I can think of that do this are Ju-Ju-Be purses/diaper bags and MAMBI brands Happy Planner)

Edited December 14, 2017 by vonfirmath

[Sneezyone]

My experience with this kind of design team is that they want people ALREADY using their products. They do not want people who may or may not care about their products to come in and start blogging about them just to get free stuff.  So they look for their design team among people who are already doing what they want them to continue doing with some official sanction.

 

There are places to send product in exchange for a review of that product in a new location, but that is not the goal of this sort of design team.

 

This may be true for those you have seen. I'm sure there are companies that are perfectly fine staying small and niche, selling only to existing customers. Others deliberately seek to diversify and grow their sales base. Who knows which type of business this is or how they intended to use the team. I just know that my mom's scraps have been requested for use in published books/compilations and online promotions because they appeal to a different, expanded audience and would increase the range of people who see the product and might find it appealing. These are all valid choices of course but they do say something about the businesses. One can't be surprised if the product users themselves want/say they would prefer a   more inclusive approach.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Sneezyone

[creekland]

Except that it does kind of seem to be what they mean by diversity in this case.  No one seems to have complained that there isn't enough religious or political diversity.  My impression from the OP was that it was racial diversity specifically.

 

I think a lot of people want a reflection of diversity in general in media, films, etc, but also feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of quotas or how to make that happen concretely.  For me, I find that it doesn't bother me so much with something like a public information message, but it seems a bit icky when people are trying to sell me something - like those adds with people of different political backgrounds enjoying products together after having heartfelt discussions.

 

I'm looking at it as an effective advertising situation - not necessarily what is in the OP (pending what that's all about).

 

In general, folks buy things from ads when they can relate to the person in the ad in some way, fashion, or form.  It might be using great looking people (because many like to think that's their crowd).  It might be using color, backgrounds (farm vs city or parenting vs retirement, etc), age ('cept you won't find many elderly unless marking to their kids as few think of themselves as "old!"), and similar things.

 

A good business or advertising firm works all of this in.  You might feel icky with a certain advertisement, but others might love it.  If they can work 5 or 6 different ones in - rather than 5 or 6 of the same - they get a much wider group.  This is usually the aim.  Above all, they don't want to turn anyone in their desired demographics off.  If that was happening, best stop it soon!  Not everyone will be pleased - that never happens - but best stop the spark before it turns into a fire.  Charring a small segment is better than a burn.

 

Many companies (or their advertisers) will use target/focus groups to test ads and concepts on first trying to avoid anything negative getting out.  New and/or smaller companies might not be able to afford this or even realize it's usually an effective way to test something.  Then too, sometimes even small groups miss something.  Such is life.

[justasque]

The right thing is to publish the criteria in advance and stick with it.  If you want to pick winners based on the qualification of skin tone, you are going to turn off as many people as you turn on.  Skin tone has nothing to do with the job and thinking one could pick 5 people who could represent all of America..gosh you need people whose gps were biracial, mixed marriages and so forth.  

 

I'm not seeing colleges are not diverse.  The diversity is in other characteristics.  Also, while on the college tour, the staff usually gets the question and the honest answer is that poc are aware that full rides await, just as they do for private high school. Hard for the colleges whose endowments don't allow for a full ride to compete.  In the meantime, lots of international students who offer a lot more different viewpoints than the kids from the 'burbs who didn't mix at lunch in their diverse high schools. 

 

Heigh Ho, could you explain this  little bit more?  I have heard people of color on Twitter mention that others have assumed they went to college on  a virtually-automatic full ride, when nothing could be further from the truth in their case; no full ride or anything close.  This misconception seemed widespread, as quite a few people shared similar experiences.  I'd like to hear more from your perspective.

Edited December 14, 2017 by justasque

[TravelingChris]

Marketing decisions are done in different ways.  I think in general, as a very colorful and more colorful than I want (thank you lupus, RA, etc) northeast European woman, I like diversity and do not automatically identify with someone just because they are European ancestry. And big advertisers have figured it out.  Putting an AA family in a car with the father who is driving and no one else is paying any attention talking about how he likes to leave the seat up sometimes is just funny and lots of people can commisserate with driving and others being distracted by cell phones, etc.    That same ad would be funny with Arab family, Swedish family, Chinese family, Colombian family, etc, etc.  So if they are trying to appeal to me, it may or may not work.   

 

Also, who is white? who  is black? who is Latino or Latina?  If ad agency asks for Hispanic character who are they getting-  A blond, blue eyed person?  A red haired person? A dark haired but European Spanish features? A mixed race who mostly resembles Spanish?  Somebody who is mixed but with 75% Amerind?   What about people like my father who also was northeast European but had dark hair, olive skin and generally could have passed for Greek or Turkic or Syrian or Iraqi?   

 

But racism is so strange too.  I can always remember how shocked I was when as one of the only white people in a movie theater showing the James Bond movie A View to a Kill which had Grace Jones, a beautiful very dark skinned Jamaican actress, the scene happened where she and James Bond kissed.  The groans and She's too Black, and UUUGHS and all that kind of stuff was coming from all around where dh and I were sitting,  In fact, they kept referring to her as ugly because she was too black.  Yes, this was almost entirely a AA audience.  It was my first awareness that skin tone discimination happens among AA too.  And not just in AA or white groups but I have no idea why so many Korean are undergoing plastic surgeries to look more white.  I always thought they looked just fine.  As I said, I don't get it at all.

[Tanaqui]

..I'll skip discussing this as the case is at the supreme court.....

 

Which case is this? There's a case going on about affirmative action, but nothing to do with minority students universally getting a "free ride" at any school.

 

[eternalsummer]

I promise, I’m just trying to wrap my head around what is right here.

 

A small company sells a product. It is an affordable product but not cheap. It is a luxury item, not in any way a need. Their customers are 100% women.

 

The company announces their 2018 design team. Basically, they get free stuff in exchange for posting about it on social media. The design team was chosen from women who applied to be in the design team. I’m guessing their number of followers was a big part in why they were chosen. The design team is 5 white women. I’m not sure what happened but there was an argument between the company and people on social media about there being no diversity. The company canceled the design team and apologized.

 

What is the right thing in this situation? If the applicants are picked based on the number of followers, should a ww with more followers be skipped over in favor of a woc with fewer followers in the name of diversity?

 

 

The diversity argument says that society or an organization or an institution or a business is both improved by and morally required to have a variety of (generally races, but sometimes people also care about religion or economic background or ethnicity or spoken language or etc.) as part of both the representation of the company/product/organization and the operation of the company/organization/institution.

 

Generally speaking, this moral requirement plus the belief that it improves the organization inherently (that is, that having a range of whatever thing is being measured - race or gender or whatever - makes the organization work better for some reason) supercedes the actual merit of the people involved.  That is not to say that the people chosen because of a desire for diversity do not have merit, but that their merit or lack of it is secondary in importance to their gender or race or ethnicity or religion.  

 

This is the argument of affirmative action, anyway- that it both improves the institution (because the school is better off as a whole with a variety of races) and is a moral requirement to ensure some sort of more equal distribution of access to better schools.

 

It's not always just a selection against white people, as Asians are more selected against in some areas (that is to say, the areas in which they do better on the merits); if they had a similar policy in pro sports, there'd probably be selection towards white people :)  But there's no pressure to do affirmative action in pro sports.

[Tanaqui]

Generally speaking, this moral requirement plus the belief that it improves the organization inherently (that is, that having a range of whatever thing is being measured - race or gender or whatever - makes the organization work better for some reason) supercedes the actual merit of the people involved.

 

Not really. We frequently find that without specific policies to level the playing field, minorities and women are discriminated against. Not intentionally, I'm sure, but it's like the people in charge give more leeway to white men, and so they unthinkingly hire white men who are actually not as qualified.

[TravelingChris]

My sister, a WoC, is a social media influencer and does get solicited to advertise products and brands through various platforms. The latest was eyeglasses. Because, yes, black Twitter users wear eyeglasses too. My mom is also a prolific scrapper (paper) and I digiscrap. If you're looking to expand into non-traditional markets or areas where your products are underrepresented, it makes no sense to stock your influencer team with folks who represent a target demo that you've already saturated. Getting that kind of diversity tho is not going to come from a contest within your existing customer base. You have to go and FIND people/influencers within underrepresented consumer segments, people who do indeed have thousands of followers (who also have disposable income) and ask them to join your team. This company could simply have solicited those influencers and added them to the team.

 

So absolutely true.  Too many people believe some type of stereotype and it is so so so often wrong.  Like the only kind of music any AA person likes is rap.  Uuuh= no.  Like that certain ethnicities or races are all stupid or crap like that ==-= NO.  And yes, I fully agree with trying to find more diversity because having not doing that is not only a good ethical thing to do but also a wise marketing decision.

[Zinnia]

Interestingly enough, 72% of the US population is white. African American is the 2nd largest group, and they only comprise of (close to) 13%.

 

That is such a crazyg nuumber to me. There must be parts of the US where there are just no POC. That number is so very far off my every day reality

[poppy]

That is such a crazyg nuumber to me. There must be parts of the US where there are just no POC. That number is so very far off my every day reality

 

Dark red states are more than 90% white.  (not a political statement - just the way this map works!)  There are 5 US states that are more than 95% white. 

 

It's not any one financial group. Some poor states are very white -- hello West Virginia! -- while some are very diverse. 

[luuknam]

ETA:  If 76% of the population is white, but only a little over 50% of the students in public education is white, I have to assume that many white children are in private or alternative education environments.  I know in my HS groups, most were white.

 

 

Not necessarily. It could just be that more older people are white, and that the younger generations are more diverse. In reality, probably both are true.

 

Also, while 73-ish percent of Americans are 'white', when people get all upset about only 'white' women being chosen for something, I tend to assume that no Hispanic women were chosen. So, if you subtract 'white' Hispanics from the 'white' population, only 62% are 'white'. So, out of 5 people, it's not unreasonable to expect at least one non-white person. 

 

I think it's mostly a stupid decision by the company, like some PPs have mentioned - you presumably want to expose as many different potential customers to your product, and since people tend to stay within their own bubbles a fair amount, that means that the crunchy hippie is probably mostly going to tell her crunchy hippie friends about the product, and the homeschool mom mostly her homeschool mom friends (Instant Pot anyone?), etc... so yes, you'd probably want diversity, of all kinds, including race (well, maybe you wouldn't want economic diversity in this case, since people in poverty don't buy luxury products, but you would want to appeal to middle class and up white, black, Hispanic, etc people).

Edited December 14, 2017 by luuknam

[Guest]

That is such a crazyg nuumber to me. There must be parts of the US where there are just no POC. That number is so very far off my every day reality

My hometown had two African Americans. One was a “bad kid from the big city†living with Grandma to get him away from bad influences and one was adopted. It was/is a very racist place.

[Laura Corin]

Not really. We frequently find that without specific policies to level the playing field, minorities and women are discriminated against. Not intentionally, I'm sure, but it's like the people in charge give more leeway to white men, and so they unthinkingly hire white men who are actually not as qualified.

 

The case of the orchestras that started auditioning players behind a screen is striking

 

https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias