Christian school Bible class concerns

[Storygirl]

I could use some other perspectives on this problem we are having, but I'll say upfront that anti-Christian sentiments are not going to be helpful, so please don't express them here.

 

My sons are enrolled in a Christian school and are in sixth and seventh grade. They have the same Bible class, which is taught by one of the church's pastors. The boys have been expressing concern about sexual content in the lessons. The pastor is going through the first books of the Old Testament, which do describe some unsavory encounters.

 

In addition to the discussions of the poor sexual behavior in the Bible, the pastor showed a video of "dog shaming" -- you know, the ones where the dog has a sign around it's neck explaining the bad thing it has done. And one of the signs was about humping the neighbor. My boys thought this was inappropriate (as do I).

 

I emailed the pastor to ask what kind of curriculum he is using and to question whether this material is appropriate for 11-13 year olds. His response was to apologize for not vetting the video well enough and to acknowledge that there are "uncomfortable" passages in the Bible, but that he wants the kids to have a safe place to discuss these things, given the culture that we live in. He then gave an overview of the curriculum topic to come.

 

I responded in an email that my concerns remain -- and I listed some personal things in there and explained why we have instructed our boys to always tell us when they feel something uncomfortable is occurring. I said that as parents, we have to be vigilant and cannot be automatically trusting, even of church leaders. I asked if he could notify parents of upcoming sexual or violent content and offer the chance for them to have their kids opt out. I suggested that they evaluated the curriculum to determine if this is the most appropriate material to be teaching children of this age, considering that they have the whole Bible to choose from.

 

*I sent my original message on Tuesday.

*On Wednesday, the pastor responded with his explanation.

*On Thursday morning, he presented another lesson that included sexual content.

*On Thursday morning, I sent my request to be notified of any uncomfortable content (he likely received this message after he had already conducted that day's class).

*Today is Monday, and we have had no follow up acknowledging my continuing concerns or my request for parental notification.

 

It's impossible for me to know whether my boys are being sensitive to a small discussions of uncomfortable topics, or if the pastor is crossing a line. All I know is what my boys have described, that they feel uncomfortable, and that they have asked me to talk to the teacher about it (which is unusual for them).

 

We are sending a follow up email today. This time written by my husband, so that they know we are in agreement that this is an issue the school needs to address.

 

I'm curious if any of you have had this kind of topic discussed with your middle schoolers at school or at church. How concerned would you be? Do you think this is a time for the kids to rise in maturity and learn to talk about sensitive topics, or it is inappropriate for this age? Where would you draw the line, as a parent, when you are not the teacher of the class?

[Guinevere]

An infrequent mention of sexual purity, in respectful and unexplicit language wouldnt bother me. A regular mentioning, or the use of sexual topics as jokes, I find inappropriate. They are many, many things to discuss in the Bible that don't have to be about sex. Yes, it's in the Bible, but so are a lot of other character lessons that I would find more appropriate for that age. If he is insistent, then I think it would be reasonable to request that they adjust the curriculum to be a few concurrent days, with parental notification and opt out opportunity. When public schools give their puberty and sex talk in 5th/6th grade, that is how they (at least used to) handle it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dog humping is not an uncomfortable subject in our household. It is a natural thing that dogs do and is often about dominance and not about sex. It makes me question the level of sensitivity your family might have. The Bible does have mention sex and violence but it isn’t graphic unless the pastor is making it graphic. Is human sexuality a normal ongoing topic in your house or a shameful one? (Just trying to find out where you are coming from).

 

 

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[Xahm]

The dog shaming video would really puzzle me because it doesn't seem related. A minor crudity like mention of a dog hoping things would not be particularly objectionable if it were somehow on topic, but that seems random in this situation.

I don't find it inappropriate to discuss examples of sexual misconduct in the Bible with middle schoolers, but I'd want to be sure I trusted the teacher. It could be that your boys feel uncomfortable because they are uncomfortable with sex as a topic, which is pretty normal, but they could be uncomfortable because the teacher is being creepy. Is it at all possible to visit the school during class time and just listen in a bit too see what vibe you get?

[J-rap]

I've never heard of teaching sexual boundaries through pets.  That seems weird to me.  Also, it's a very personal topic.  I think the school should inform the parents of the upcoming lesson plans on the topic, explain what they plan to teach and how, and let the parents opt out if they choose to talk to their children about it differently.

 

 

[HomeAgain]

Is it wrong that my first thought is that the time for emails have passed, and that I'd be calling or showing up at the school to do a friendly 'meet the parent' chat with the teacher?

 

Because I would.  It doesn't matter if your concerns are valid, the lack of addressing them in a timely manner is not okay.

[Storygirl]

Dog humping is not an uncomfortable subject in our household. It is a natural thing that dogs do and is often about dominance and not about sex. It makes me question the level of sensitivity your family might have. The Bible does have mention sex and violence but it isn’t graphic unless the pastor is making it graphic. Is human sexuality a normal ongoing topic in your house or a shameful one? (Just trying to find out where you are coming from).

 

 

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All of these things are discussed within our family freely. We talk about sexual topics openly and answer all of the kids' questions. My boys know they can talk about anything with us. 

 

They also have been told that they should always tell us if another adult does or says something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

 

This summer, our married youth pastor was let go from our church (not the same church as the one associated with the school) for crossing the line with a member of the youth program.

 

Also this summer, a counselor at the camp that my children attended was arrested for child molestation (this was national news).

 

So we have had a lot of conversations over the past months about being wary.

 

I am trying to figure out if my boys are being sensitive in the way that all kids of that age are likely to be with these kind of topics, or if the class discussions are crossing a line. Because I'm not in the classroom, it's hard to tell.

 

The dog video was not a terrible thing, but I did question why a pastor would show it to his Bible students. It bothered my boys, who are typical boys who would normally find that kind of thing funny.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I've never heard of teaching sexual boundaries through pets. That seems weird to me. Also, it's a very personal topic. I think the school should inform the parents of the upcoming lesson plans on the topic, explain what they plan to teach and how, and let the parents opt out if they choose to talk to their children about it differently.

But was the dog shaming video supposed to be about sexual boundaries? I could see having a dog shaming video as a lighthearted way to try and explain how people were shamed publicly in the ancient Biblical culture. It sounds like the pastor hadn’t watched the video all the way through and didn’t realize that the humping one was in there or didn’t realize that someone would be offended.

[J-rap]

But was the dog shaming video supposed to be about sexual boundaries? I could see having a dog shaming video as a lighthearted way to try and explain how people were shamed publicly in the ancient Biblical culture. It sounds like the pastor hadn’t watched the video all the way through and didn’t realize that the humping one was in there or didn’t realize that someone would be offended.

 

Oh, maybe not?  It's how I interpreted it, but I could be wrong.

[mamaraby]

Well I’m not a Christian so you take my perspective fwiw, but what you’re describing does not strike me as something that is inappropriate or unusual. Kids do tend to have varying levels of comfort with these sorts of things, though, so by and large it will depend upon the child. I do think there is value in kids learning how to discuss uncomfortable topics so I would lean more towards it being an issue of your kids needing to learn how to deal with that discomfort and that discomfort is not always an indication that something is inappropriate or wrong. It can be, but it is not a given.

 

I’m more along the lines if Jean and xahm. Is this a difference in family culture compared to the school? Are you available to sit in on the class so that you can get a clearer read on the issue?

[Storygirl]

I'd be willing to drop in and listen to a class. But I wouldn't have a way to know if this kind of topic were being addressed on that day.

 

We may go to the school to have a meeting, but we will see how they respond to my husband's email today.

 

Our little school has been going through some troubles over the past year, and we have a new principal. Good communication is one of the issues parents complain about. I hope this new principal may do better than the old one, but he is also overwhelmed by running the school daily and also fixing problems created by the past administration.

 

All that is just to say that we would be happy to go there for a meeting, but we are seeing if we can resolve it through email first, because we know the principal is busy putting out fires daily.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh, maybe not? It's how I interpreted it, but I could be wrong.

I just said what I did because the pastor apologized for not vetting the video thoroughly. That’s all.

[gardenmom5]

Tbh, I think your problem is the pastor teaching the class. Is there anyone above him to whim you can express your concerns?

[Storygirl]

But was the dog shaming video supposed to be about sexual boundaries? I could see having a dog shaming video as a lighthearted way to try and explain how people were shamed publicly in the ancient Biblical culture. It sounds like the pastor hadn’t watched the video all the way through and didn’t realize that the humping one was in there or didn’t realize that someone would be offended.

 

This was the pastor's explanation. He was talking about guilt and shame as the lesson and thought the dog shaming video would be fun. He neglected to watch it all to make sure it is appropriate first.

 

I can accept that explanation. But it suggests to me that the pastor is not being as thoughtful as he might about the material he is presenting to the class.

 

He is not really supposed to be a teacher. He is stepping in, because the school is short staffed. He is not trained as a school teacher.

[mamaraby]

I also think there’s a difference between comfort levels when discussing some topics with your people who know you and you know them sort of thing vs. discussing it with other people who don’t have that same history/background level of relationship with you.

[kbutton]

I think the biggest thing to me (so far) is that you don't feel like you have the whole story, and the teacher seems to think his response is sufficient. That's not stellar communication on his part.

 

I think it could be inappropriate or just odd given the information you have available. It's certainly not explained, and that is completely unhelpful from the teacher.

 

FWIW, not everyone has dogs and would know about dog behavior. I come from a rural dairy farming area where dogs were mostly owned one at a time and often spent most of the time outside running around in a field. I did see farm animals do all kinds of things, but not necessarily dogs. 

[Clemsondana]

I haven't encountered this with my kids (yet - my oldest just moved up to youth this year). But, I will say that my adult Sunday school class has been surprised at times at the content of stories that we thought that we knew. We did an in-depth study of Judges, which is full of common children's stories. We spent some time discussing the age at which kids should switch from learning the 'children's versions' of the stories into the more 'adult' version. On one hand, there is more meaning to the complete stories, and on the other hand, I wouldn't want to teach the details of rape, murder, and genocide to kindergarteners. I don't know the right age to make the switch in group settings, but we hypothesized that 'wanting to avoid the controversy' is the reason that we had never seen lessons about it.

[Storygirl]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for. 

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

[Storygirl]

I think the biggest thing to me (so far) is that you don't feel like you have the whole story, and the teacher seems to think his response is sufficient. That's not stellar communication on his part.

 

 

Yes, this.

 

We are continuing the conversation with the pastor and principal and will see what they have to say. I'm just trying to gauge how typical this kind of lesson for this age is.

 

It may be that my kids can benefit from learning how to handle uncomfortable topics.

 

It may be the topics are not really appropriate.

 

I'm trying to figure out how to know which it is.

 

The pastor's first response was nice and thoughtful, and he gave a pretty thorough overview of the general themes for the year. But I wasn't satisfied with his answer, and he didn't respond to my follow up, where I raised some important points.

 

So there are two issues, really. I'm annoyed at the communication. And I'm trying to determine whether the class content is appropriate. Which is hard to do without better communication.

 

[Storygirl]

By the way, I'm terrible about remembering to use the Like button, but I appreciate all of your responses.

[Loowit]

Kids at that age are generally going to be uncomfortable to some extent when and adult brings up sexual topics.  I would have been (and was) at that age, but I don't think that skipping whole sections of the Bible for the sake of personal comfort is a good idea.

 

I think that you are on your guard, for good reasons, and wanting to protect your sons from adults who may not be safe, but I don't think that just discussing sexual topics in a classroom setting is unsafe.  Getting overly graphic would be a problem.  Discussing it every day when it is off topic of the Bible passage would raise red flags.  But to just bring it up as it comes as part of the lesson would seem to be normal.

 

There are gods mentioned in the Bible that were gods of fertility and there were sexual acts that were used as part of their worship.  I do think that it could be on topic to discuss how the people were worshiping other gods because I think it helps give more background and setting to the time they are learning about.  I don't think graphic details are required, but general details can be very helpful.

 

I think that at this point, you really need to meet with the pastor in person to discuss this.  Email communication can be a great starting point, but it is not a good format for a discussion.

 

 

[lexi]

I wonder if the pastor is thinking about age appropriateness. It sounds like he is going into more detail than is necessary. I think at this point you are very concerned and should go directly to the principal (even if he’s currently overwhelmed).

It sounds like this class could focus on other issues or themes rather than have quite as much detail about the sex-themed topics.

I think if your kids are uncomfortable then you need to go directly to the principal. If my kids felt uncomfortable I would listen and try to step in and find a solution.

It really sounds like the pastor is giving too much detail or context for kids that age. I’m an adult and some of that stuff makes me horribly uncomfortable.

These things are in the Bible so there’s going to be mention of them in a bible class. But I don’t think it needs to be a focus. Honestly there is so many other themes in the Bible to focus on. Sounds like he should rethink his topics.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for. 

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

 

"Gods of sex" isn't in the Bible.  But temple prostitutes are.  His explanation seems tame and sanitized.  "Some people were worshipping 'gods of sex' and had to do sex acts as part of worship."  Now if kids asked "what sex acts" and he explained in detail, I would have a big problem with it. 

 

I actually have a bigger problem with him saying that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to.  In one sense, sure.  But as you pointed out, you don't know if he really is a safe person. 

 

I hope you know that I'm just responding from my point of view.  I'm a pastor's wife who has taught children, tweens and teens the Bible.  I actually chose to gloss over more of those stories with tweens and younger because of sensitivity to different family cultures.  I know Christian families who don't talk about sex at all and while that is not our family culture, I respect their right to make their own decisions about it. 

 

 

[MedicMom]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for.

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

I remember similar discussion in Sunday school about that age. Including how many of the other gods had sexual sides to them. But i also learned about that in seventh grade history.

I don’t think he’s out of line. Many of the Bible stories, once you move past Noah and the ark and baby Jesus, are about sex. If you’re going to study the Bible and it’s stories accurately, and by your boys’ ages the whitewashing is probably lessening, there’s going to be sexual content. Now if the pastor is expounding on it and going into gratuitous detail, that’s one thing and not appropriate. If it’s a Bible class and they’re reading about how King David and Bathsheba and the rape of his daughter Tamar, then I think it is appropriate.

 

I would think the dog video is funny. But we as a family wouldn’t be offended by the humping sign.

[lexi]

And I agree with other posters that you really need more details. I would want to know exactly how much detail is being given. And I would want to hear his perspective about what he’s discussing and why he thinks his level of detail is important and appropriate. There are super uncomfortable topics in the Bible. I think they can be covered at this age as long as it’s done in a careful way.

[vonfirmath]

I remember similar discussion in Sunday school about that age. Including how many of the other gods had sexual sides to them. But i also learned about that in seventh grade history.

I don’t think he’s out of line. Many of the Bible stories, once you move past Noah and the ark and baby Jesus, are about sex. If you’re going to study the Bible and it’s stories accurately, and by your boys’ ages the whitewashing is probably lessening, there’s going to be sexual content. Now if the pastor is expounding on it and going into gratuitous detail, that’s one thing and not appropriate. If it’s a Bible class and they’re reading about how King David and Bathsheba and the rape of his daughter Tamar, then I think it is appropriate.

 

I would think the dog video is funny. But we as a family wouldn’t be offended by the humping sign.

 

Agreed. My son is a 5th grader. It's time to start discussing the details of the Bible and if you are in the OT, a -lot- of it is really violent and sexual, yes.  The city of Sodom. Lot and his daughters. The chopping up into pieces of the murdered mistress. When the Levi tribe was almost wiped out and what God said they could do to prevent that. The rape of Dinah and the response of the brothers, and then God's response in giving out inheritances. He can't handle it on the movies, etc. but seems to be able to handle it fine when working from the Bible and trying to understand what was going on.

 

It is a problem you don't feel you can trust the teacher.

[Hyacinth]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for. 

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

This could be completely innocent and well-meaning. Or it could be grooming behavior. The lack of clear communication and the seemingly dismissive response to parental questioning would have me on high alert, too.

 

Keep listening to your kids. Keep telling them what you know to be true about the topics being brought up in the class. Keep hounding the school for clarity on what exactly is being taught. "What scriptures are you reading, what other resources are you using, what point are you making, what takeaway are you hoping the students gain?" If the teacher can't answer those questions before the class, I would assume he's winging it. And maybe he can get away with that for an adult class, but without a good understanding of this age group or classroom dynamics . . . I'd be wary.

[Storygirl]

Personally, I think that it's important to study the whole Bible and not skip parts. And I don't think that my kids should be sheltered. I would talk about these parts of the Bible with them with no problem.

 

But my boys are struggling, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. They have been complaining and asking me to intervene. DS13 said the other day, "Did you talk to the school yet? Because he is still doing it."

 

I don't believe that my kids need to be comfortable with everything that happens at school. For example, DS13 gets intervention services, and he dislikes some of it and has said he wants to stop doing it. That doesn't mean he gets to stop doing it.

 

Just because he wants the Bible teacher to stop talking about these issues doesn't mean that the Bible teacher needs to stop talking about them. Sometimes things that are beneficial to us are also uncomfortable for us.

 

But because it's a sexual topic, it's really brought up some gray issues. When do we know that the topics are okay, and when they have gone over the line? Also, I want my kids to know that I will believe them when they bring concerns of this nature to me.

 

When is feeling uncomfortable okay, and when is it not? I'm thinking about how the way that I handle this will be seen by my kids as well. Will I go to bat for them? Will I believe an adult's word over theirs? If this time talking about sex with the teacher is okay, then where is the line for them to know when it is not okay?

 

I'm just thinking through all of these things. I'm not convinced that the Bible teacher is in the wrong. I'm trying to work it out.

[Storygirl]

Agreed. My son is a 5th grader. It's time to start discussing the details of the Bible and if you are in the OT, a -lot- of it is really violent and sexual, yes.  The city of Sodom. Lot and his daughters. The chopping up into pieces of the murdered mistress. When the Levi tribe was almost wiped out and what God said they could do to prevent that. The rape of Dinah and the response of the brothers, and then God's response in giving out inheritances. He can't handle it on the movies, etc. but seems to be able to handle it fine when working from the Bible and trying to understand what was going on.

 

It is a problem you don't feel you can trust the teacher.

 

I want to be trusting. It's in my nature. But I've learned that not everyone that we want to trust is trustworthy. Someone we knew who was a very godly man fell in a very big way, and it impacted my kids.

 

I don't know this pastor. We don't attend the church that the school operates out of.

 

Actually, there was a different pastor teaching this Bible class at the beginning of the year, and when that pastor left to take another job, this pastor took over the class. No one at the school told the parents that there was a change in instructors. The Bible teacher has never sent any information home to parents about what is being taught in class this year. There is a lack of communication that is concerning and that doesn't build trust.

 

I also had a creepy interaction with a teacher in high school, and I didn't tell my parents.

 

So I don't trust automatically.

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that all of the sexual content of the Bible is fair game.  You don't want to inaccurately portray the Bible.

 

But going beyond that is inappropriate. 

Pastors and other teachers should be modeling that you can be funny without being sexual.  Dirty joke kind of allusions are inappropriate and should not be modeled or normalized by the pastor.

This pastor sounds rather immature at best, and completely unattuned to this issue.

 

 

Eph 5:3-4 applies.  (Sorry, I can't cut and paste right now.)

[Heathermomster]

Speak with the teacher so that you can discover how and what will be covered next. Prepare the boys ahead of time for the info that is to come.

 

And no, I don't see a problem. Our church teaches the Bible from Genesis and straight through starting in about kindie.

 

DH are I are funny and would not enroll our kids in a church school not associated with our denomination.

[Liz CA]

All of these things are discussed within our family freely. We talk about sexual topics openly and answer all of the kids' questions. My boys know they can talk about anything with us. 

 

They also have been told that they should always tell us if another adult does or says something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

 

This summer, our married youth pastor was let go from our church (not the same church as the one associated with the school) for crossing the line with a member of the youth program.

 

Also this summer, a counselor at the camp that my children attended was arrested for child molestation (this was national news).

 

So we have had a lot of conversations over the past months about being wary.

 

I am trying to figure out if my boys are being sensitive in the way that all kids of that age are likely to be with these kind of topics, or if the class discussions are crossing a line. Because I'm not in the classroom, it's hard to tell.

 

The dog video was not a terrible thing, but I did question why a pastor would show it to his Bible students. It bothered my boys, who are typical boys who would normally find that kind of thing funny.

 

 

It sounds like your family has been exposed to quite a bit inappropriate behavior in a relatively short time span and the boys may be hypervigilant after witnessing / hearing about those incidents. These are difficult waters to navigate anyway for that age group. I cannot say if the pastor is trying to inject humor in a topic that makes kids uncomfortable even though they are very interested in it or if he is a little clumsy in selecting appropriate material. Unless you have strong instincts to do otherwise, I would likely encourage discussion about the material after every lesson and "talk through" the material without taking further action at this point. 

I am not sure I understood the timeline of the emails correctly. It seemed like the teacher responded immediately but now you have not heard from him for a few days?

Perhaps a face to face discussion of possible concerns would bring you more clarity?

Edited December 11, 2017 by Liz CA

[Liz CA]

I'd be willing to drop in and listen to a class. But I wouldn't have a way to know if this kind of topic were being addressed on that day.

 

We may go to the school to have a meeting, but we will see how they respond to my husband's email today.

 

Our little school has been going through some troubles over the past year, and we have a new principal. Good communication is one of the issues parents complain about. I hope this new principal may do better than the old one, but he is also overwhelmed by running the school daily and also fixing problems created by the past administration.

 

All that is just to say that we would be happy to go there for a meeting, but we are seeing if we can resolve it through email first, because we know the principal is busy putting out fires daily.

 

 

Sounds like a good plan. Does the principal have to be present during an initial meeting with the teacher? I am ignorant in those things as our school years are a few years back and we took ds out of ps after 5th grade.

[Chelli]

Can you give a specific example of something that happened in class that made your sons uncomfortable (besides the video)?

 

Something like, "He was teaching about Samson and Delilah and then said XYZ which really bothered us."

 

Without a specific example, I'm not sure what to think.

[Annie G]

The dog shaming video might have been an attempt to 'relate' to the age group. However, I don't even find that very worthwhile. We want our kids, and ourselves, to feel ashamed when we have done wrong, we don't really want to encourage the kids to call out other people. Which is kind of what's happening in the dog shaming videos. 

 

But the real issue is that your boys have had two recent instances where sexual abuse came too close for comfort.  They're trying to navigate that  fine line between 'safe person' and 'creep'. I think talking to the pastor/teacher about that might give him some insight and perhaps can help him understand where you're coming from.  Right now he might think you're just a parent who isn't comfortable letting her kid hear anything that's sex related. And that's not it at all!

 

His email communication isn't doing a very good job of alleviating your fears.  I hope you can talk to him in person. That's probably a better way to work this out. 

[nixpix5]

All of these things are discussed within our family freely. We talk about sexual topics openly and answer all of the kids' questions. My boys know they can talk about anything with us.

 

They also have been told that they should always tell us if another adult does or says something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

 

This summer, our married youth pastor was let go from our church (not the same church as the one associated with the school) for crossing the line with a member of the youth program.

 

Also this summer, a counselor at the camp that my children attended was arrested for child molestation (this was national news).

 

So we have had a lot of conversations over the past months about being wary.

 

I am trying to figure out if my boys are being sensitive in the way that all kids of that age are likely to be with these kind of topics, or if the class discussions are crossing a line. Because I'm not in the classroom, it's hard to tell.

 

The dog video was not a terrible thing, but I did question why a pastor would show it to his Bible students. It bothered my boys, who are typical boys who would normally find that kind of thing funny.

This may have been mentioned and I admit I didn't read all of the posts, but if your sons have had these issues occur recently with trusted adults then they are going to be more hyper aware of anything out of the ordinary to them. They are probably staying alert to cues and wanting to make sure nobody else is hurt. I think that is astute and extraordinary. I could tell by your original post your sons were not prudish or they would not have brought these concerns to you to begin with. Nothing is more uncomfortable for teens then talking sex with parents and it is only done when the parent has done a great job of being open. This strikes me completely as two boys on high alert for innapropriate behavior based on their experiences.

 

I would follow up with the teacher in person. As a Christian we are asked to go directly to the person and if it doesn't work bring in wise counsel (their superior in this case).

[bolt.]

Christianity is a religion about life and death. The Bible is a book about life and death. It's content is fundamentally tied to stories of procreation and violence: references to those things are frequent (especially in the Old Testament) and highly relevant.

 

The pastor in your situation might be trying to be edgy about it, but most likely he is just explaining the stories of our holy book. They are uncomfortable stories. They come in a predictable order. I don't think opting out is reasonable.

[Catwoman]

Do you know any other parents whose kids are in the same class? It might be interesting to find out whether or not they are concerned, and/or if their kids felt uncomfortable with the class discussions.

[gardenmom5]

"Gods of sex" isn't in the Bible.  But temple prostitutes are.  His explanation seems tame and sanitized.  "Some people were worshipping 'gods of sex' and had to do sex acts as part of worship."  Now if kids asked "what sex acts" and he explained in detail, I would have a big problem with it. 

 

I actually have a bigger problem with him saying that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to.  In one sense, sure.  But as you pointed out, you don't know if he really is a safe person. 

 

I hope you know that I'm just responding from my point of view.  I'm a pastor's wife who has taught children, tweens and teens the Bible.  I actually chose to gloss over more of those stories with tweens and younger because of sensitivity to different family cultures.  I know Christian families who don't talk about sex at all and while that is not our family culture, I respect their right to make their own decisions about it. 

 

 

 

this, combined with apparently the continued (seriously - how many times does it need to be discussed in a quarter?  among this age group?) bringing up of the s3x acts - and the pacifying comments with no follow-through on changing anything - are what would have me getting more information and going over his head.

[bolt.]

this, combined with apparently the continued (seriously - how many times does it need to be discussed in a quarter? among this age group?) bringing up of the s3x acts - and the pacifying comments with no follow-through on changing anything - are what would have me getting more information and going over his head.

If he is teaching the OT (either chronologically or canonically) it's going to come up a lot. I'm surprised that you are surprised.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Do you know any other parents whose kids are in the same class? It might be interesting to find out whether or not they are concerned, and/or if their kids felt uncomfortable with the class discussions.

 

I was going to say the same thing.  Also, as I have learned through my own kid(s) being in school, sometimes if more than one parent questions something, answers and/or action comes a bit more swiftly.

[ktgrok]

Can you ask your sons if they are upset about the topics themselves, or the way he is covering them? If they are upset he is bringing up sexual stories at all, from the Bible, that probably isn't something that needs to be fixed other than explaining that yes, these things are in the Bible. If he is upset with HOW they are being handled, that is different. 

[fairfarmhand]

The pastor sounds very young and idealistic about these topics trying to help the kids see these things from an adult point of view. Problem is, they’re middle schoolers and they’re not going to be able to discuss it that way because they’re young.

 

My dh had a well meaning young pastor try to teach his middle school boys Sunday school class through the book of Song of Solomon so the kids would get a “biblical idea of sexuality.†But it was a disaster.

 

All that to say, this guy could be a creep, he could be naive about what the kids can handle at these ages or your kids could be a little sensitive.

 

Do you know any of the other parents so you can talk with them and get their take on it?

 

I remember a discussion of circumcision while i was in the 7h grade. It wasn’t in detail or anything but it was a little awkward. I didn’t think the Teach was out of line in my case but it was just weird to be discussing in a coed class. I never said anything to my parents becuase there was nothing to report.

 

 

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[rose]

My thoughts are that the trouble is that you don't know this man. If his content is soberly presented (the dog video suggests that it isn't) then it's probably fine and your dc are just a little too sensitive. If he's cracking sexual jokes or making faces or is any way not sober then it's probably not appropriate. There is also the issue that you don't know or trust his character enough to not wonder if he could be a predator. That would absolutely alarm me.

 

As for what to do, I think that you should set your dh onto the situation. Let him sniff out the situation. Maybe the two of you could go together to talk to the pastor. I would guess that the pastor and the administration will probably respond better to a father's concerns then a mothers. This (them responding better to a father) is not appropriate but is natural.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Rose M

[Bluegoat]

I think you really need to find out more.  The kid's sense of what's appropriate may be dead-on, or way off in left field.

 

The thing with the dog is probably irrelevant.  Though my 7th grader would have laughed.

[Calm37]

I've read through most of the comments and I find myself wondering if this is a coed class. I mean, could part of the discomfort come from not just being "that age," but also being "that age with girls present"?

 

I remember my middle school youth group splitting into boys and girls for a few weeks (now this is in 1968 or so, remember) to talk about these issues.

 

ETA: My own son would have actually been more concerned about the girls having to hear it as he has 3 sisters to "protect."

Edited December 11, 2017 by Calm37

[Butter]

I think you need more information.  What exactly is making them uncomfortable?  Is it just the stories themselves or is the pastor actually being graphic?  If it's just the stories themselves, well, I'd tell them to suck it up.  If the pastor is being graphic, that is completely not appropriate.

 

I taught 12-13 year old girls in church for a while and there was one really awkward lesson where we were talking about Joseph and Potiphar's wife.  We read the actual scripture verses and one of the girls was so upset because she had been taught that Potiphar's wife just wanted to kiss Joseph, but reading the verses she realized Potiphar's wife wanted much more than just kissing.  It was awkward and uncomfortable and the girl was very shocked that the story was different from what she had previously thought.  What the lesson was about was fleeing from evil and temptation so the story totally fit.

[gardenmom5]

If he is teaching the OT (either chronologically or canonically) it's going to come up a lot. I'm surprised that you are surprised.

 

I've been through the OT enough times to know it's is there, but with this age, there is a big difference in how it is presented. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

A good Bible teacher is going to try to provide some cultural context for the Bible stories. It seems like this pastor was trying to do that on a benign way with the video. I have seen the video as well and thought it funny. I don’t think that all discussion of the Bible has to be dry.

 

 

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[PeterPan]

Story, I'm just jumping to the end here, but I think I can tell you why it makes you feel uncomfortable and you can say oh no that's not why. Breaking down sexual boundaries and bringing up things adults don't normally discuss with kids, having the kids violate their consciences, is a technique of people grooming kids for sexual abuse.

 

That's why it bugs you. It's not right.