Ethics question: Who is a 'home-schooler'?

[snowbeltmom]

In NYS there is no publicly funded school at home program so the distinction is fairly easy.  You either go to a brick and mortar school or you are homeschooled and follow those regulations.

 

To me the difference is not so much as to where the curriculum comes from as to who controls the educational plan or goals.  If a student is doing a school at home program  that is directed by the state and has deadlines to meet by the state program then they are not homeschooled.  A student using the same program but where the parents can say I choose to use this subject, all subjects or I do not like the way this is going so we are going to stop using it and do something else that is a homeschooler.  The parents direct the education and can choose what grade level, what courses and how the work is done.

 

:iagree:

And to piggyback onto the bolded, the parents also determine the high school graduation requirements and issue the diploma along with the transcript.

 

[Penguin]

I haven't read all the responses. Our state considers my son a homeschooler. We do use an accredited umbrella school, and they will issue a transcript. I choose all of the curriculum. 

 

My plan is to ask each college that he applies to whether they want him to apply as a homeschooler or as a private school student. Labels don't matter to me as long as we are always both legal and fully transparent.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Penguin

[J-rap]

I believe if you do online school at home through a public school of some sort, and the public school is in charge of everything, you cannot legally say you are homeschooling your child.

 

However, I've had issues with this in casual, local settings.  We live in a small town with a homeschool group that meets regularly (my kids are older now so we're no longer part of it).  They do things such as gym time, art classes, field trips, holiday parties, picnics.  Mostly, it's just a fun way for kids learning at home to connect.  To me, that should include children who are doing public school on-line, at home, because they fall under the category of children who are schooling at home.  For some parents, doing it through an on-line public school is what work out best for them.  So, I've always supported those families being allowed to be part of our town's homeschool group.  Other people were against it.

 

[G5052]

My state defines it too. If you are virtual-schooling paid by public funds, you are in publc school. If you attend a bricks-and-mortar private school, you are in private school. If you file the paperwork, you are homeschooling even if you do part-time public school and/or parent-paid classes. Homeschooling means that the parent is at least in charge of coordinating the education. Some choose an accredited online school for their entire curriculum, but that's still considered homeschooling even if the school issues the diploma.

[Ellie]

Let's suppose, for the purposes of argument, your child does K-12 (  or Acellus, or Compass Learning)  independently.  You pay out of pocket, use the curriculum, and teach your child. At the end of high school, you create the transcript.

 

Let's suppose Suzie's kiddo uses K-12 (or Acellus, or Compass Learning, or any of the other resource providers that also offers an option to maintain grades)  through a cyber school. The state pays for it, she uses it to teach her child.  At the end of the day, the State or company  has created her transcript.

 

Which one of these children can apply to college as a 'home-schooler' or can both?  Neither child has ever stepped inside a b&m school and Mom has always done all the teaching.

 

Can both Moms equally claim to have 'homeschooled' their child?   Is the child who used a cyber-school ethically required to submit a transcript from the school as a 'public-schooler'.

 

Would you feel the same if both moms used eclectic curricula chosen for their child  from an assortment of sources but one still had a cyber or charter umbrella?

 

Consider that the reason for wanting to be a 'home-schooler' is because there are some colleges that look favorably upon kids educated at home.

 

I understand that post-secondary classes must follow a student but do you feel that a public school transcript must? 

 

Legally, a student who is enrolled in a charter school, whether Internet-based (e.g., Texas Virtual Academy, California Virtual Academy, Oklahoma Virtual Academy) or campus-based (most common in California), is a public school student. The state tracks attendance and receives funding for the students' "attendance," and issues high school diplomas and transcripts. So, legally, that student is not home-schooled.

 

If the parents are complying with any homeschool laws in their states, and they purchase all their materials on their own instead of with funds provided by a charter school, then legally, they are homeschoolers (or private schoolers, depending on the state). That would include those who enroll their children in distance-learning schools such as ABeka Academy or Clonlara, or who buy K-12 or Acellus or whatever.

[Dmmetler]

I’m in TN, where there are almost no homeschoolers by definition. Most of us register with umbrella schools and Our kids are legally enrolled in private school. When DD applied to a program where she was the first TN student ever to apply, it caused problems because she had a school transcript, but the school truly couldn’t say much about her education, and in many ways, it would have been easier had she either been 100% homeschooled (which they knew how to deal with) or in a traditional school.

 

For colleges in-state, it is no big deal-they know that the cover school means “really homeschooledâ€and handle it accordingly. And my the time DD applies to 4hear schools, she’ll likely have DE/concurrent college transcripts from several schools.

[cjzimmer1]

For us, we define it by who pays the bills. If the public school system is paying, then they are public schoolers at home and they will receive a transcript from said school.  If I pay the bills, then they are homeschoolers and they will receive a transcript for me.  

 

Even with using the same online provider, to me there is a big diffference and here's why.  When attending as a public schooler (at least in our state), the state can and does get to dictate what school/subjects/assignments are required.  But as a homeschooler, I can say I don't like this assignment and opt out or arrange something else with the teacher.  Since I'm ultimately in charge of grades, I can override whatever the cyber school assigns.  SO to me the difference happens because I have the control versus the state having the control.

[Arcadia]

In my youngest child's case, the school he is most interested in handles both types of students in the same way. All applicant are encouraged to educate beyond the classroom so the application allows for explanation of academic methodology from everyone. So, it isn't an issue for us.

 

However, there was a recent discussion about 'ignoring the umbrella aspect and just applying as a home-schooler.'

When I was discussing high school plans with a college counselor, the tricky part of being a homeschooler is the part I quoted from Yale below. The guidance counselor part of college apps would have a list of subjects the high school offers. So my friend’s child who can do harder subjects isn’t penalized for not doing dual enrollment as his public high school doesn’t cater for that and he easily graduated within the top five percent of his school cohort. My kids as homeschoolers would not have a ceiling for most rigorous classes offered for each subject because there is an expectation of making dual enrollment happen if your child finish the high school sequence before 12th grade.

 

“Context, Context, Context

Does your school offer AP courses? An International Baccalaureate program? Both? Neither? We know you did not design your school’s curriculum, and we only expect you to take advantage of such courses if your high school provides them. Different schools have different requirements that may restrict what courses you can take. Again, we only expect that you will excel in the opportunities to which you have access.â€

https://admissions.yale.edu/advice-selecting-high-school-courses

 

I think your umbrella school is similar to our Private School Satellite Program (PSP) instead of the Independent Study Program which allocates funds and students have to do whatever state standardized tests that B&M public school kids do. I would think of people using PSP as homeschoolers as they don’t have state regulations to follow to get a high school diploma and they do not take state standardized tests like PARCC (Partnership for Assessment of Readiness for College and Careers) or Smarter Balanced (Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium).

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's still not as bad, in my mind, as someone telling me they also homeschool........

 

their 3 year old... :glare:

 

Sorry. Now THAT is not homeschooling.

 

 

[GoodGrief]

 

 

 

I'm honestly not familiar with the state provided transcripts of homeschooled children. Presumably the point of using approved providers is to have the child take tests and hit markers that provide progress reports to an outside authority?    Or can mom make up any grade she wants and then get a state stamp of approval? 

 

In our state, there is the option to homeschool completely independently, with zero oversight. However, there are a large number of public programs for homeschoolers, administered by various school districts that provide funding for curricula in exchange for a few hoops through which to jump (the same annual testing done by all public school students, submission of an educational plan for the year, some programs require monthly contact by phone/email with a contact teacher, some want quarterly work samples. The program determines graduation requirements) For most of the programs, the parents choose the subjects taught and curricula, and submit the grades. Yes, a mom could "make up any grade she wants", like independent homeschoolers. There was a statewide graduation test that had to be passed, though in the last couple of years that was changed to having them all take the ACT or SAT before receiving a diploma.

 

Editing to add that the school districts are motivated to run these programs by funding. They receive an an allotment from the state for each enrolled student (I believe it is 3/4 of the amount received for a building based student), and only use a portion of that for the curric of the homeschooled student. They can use the rest to supplement the budgets of their other programs. This is not so much about providing quality control for homeschooling, and, in fact, when the state budget gets tight, there is inevitably a call to cut these programs.

Edited December 11, 2017 by GoodGrief

[Bambam]

In TX, if you are using the ISD funded online school, they make it *very clear* that you are *NOT* homeschooling but you are schooling at home.  If you use the ISD funded online schools, you have to pass the state-required standardized tests. You are subject to their attendance requirements. Parents have no choice in what curriculum is used - outside of taking Chemistry or Physics this year and electives. So, in my mind you are 100% not a homeschooler but a public school at home. 

[Element]

Even if the child has never stepped foot in any kind of classroom and all education has been directed and imparted by a parent?

You can get a college degree entirely online. At the end of that journey, you're going to put "University of _____" on your resume, not "(Invented school name)." You do not need to be physically present in school to earn a diploma or degree. Why should elementary or high school be any different? Because you had to oversee the child's work? So do public school parents and afterschoolers. Perhaps not to the same degree, but the degree you choose to oversee is somewhat arbitrary and varies greatly among parents anyway. 

 

ETA: This came out with the wrong tone from me. I don't actually care what parents of public-school-at-home students call their school. I was just bringing up the existence of non-classroom education in the public realm. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Element

[KungFuPanda]

If you’re educated at home and your mom is overseeing everything, I can see calling yourself a homeschooler because you’re living that lifestyle. As far a colleges are concerned, if your curriculum is virtually the same as what is used in your local schools, I don’t think they’d view your education as anything that stands out from that of public school kids. Completing that program demands time that you won’t have to do anything outside the box in those subjects. You certainly don’t get the benefits of a differentiated curriculum.

 

I’m not sure what colleges actually view homeschoolers that favorably, but I can see them backing off this position when viewing transcripts where public school online becomes a more common model.

[luuknam]

In NYS there is no publicly funded school at home program so the distinction is fairly easy.  You either go to a brick and mortar school or you are homeschooled and follow those regulations.

 

To me the difference is not so much as to where the curriculum comes from as to who controls the educational plan or goals.  If a student is doing a school at home program  that is directed by the state and has deadlines to meet by the state program then they are not homeschooled.  A student using the same program but where the parents can say I choose to use this subject, all subjects or I do not like the way this is going so we are going to stop using it and do something else that is a homeschooler.  The parents direct the education and can choose what grade level, what courses and how the work is done.

 

 

Except that in NYS, you can't just do w/e you want, even as a homeschooler. I'm not there yet, but iirc, at the higher grade levels you have to teach certain subjects for specific numbers of hours per subject, covering specific things (even now, I have to cover specific stuff like "fire safety"). 

 

Btw, not saying that homeschoolers in NY aren't homeschoolers... just that the lines of "well, the parent decides graduation criteria etc" get blurred in a high regulation state. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by luuknam

[Ellie]

Except that in NYS, you can't just do w/e you want, even as a homeschooler. I'm not there yet, but iirc, at the higher grade levels you have to teach certain subjects for specific numbers of hours per subject, covering specific things (even now, I have to cover specific stuff like "fire safety"). 

 

Btw, not saying that homeschoolers in NY aren't homeschoolers... just that the lines of "well, the parent decides graduation criteria etc" get blurred in a high regulation state. 

 

But that's the parents are complying with the homeschool laws in the state; that makes them homeschoolers.

 

NY does not have requirements for a specific amount of time per subject; it just requires more hours for high school than for elementary/jr. high. And FTR, you don't have to *prove* your hours.

[freesia]

But that's the parents are complying with the homeschool laws in the state; that makes them homeschoolers.

 

NY does not have requirements for a specific amount of time per subject; it just requires more hours for high school than for elementary/jr. high. And FTR, you don't have to *prove* your hours.

 

Actually it does. The law proscribes a certain amount of units of different subjects and goes on to say how many minutes a unit is.  I don't remember the minutes but it divides into 108 hours per unit.

[luuknam]

Actually it does. The law proscribes a certain amount of units of different subjects and goes on to say how many minutes a unit is.  I don't remember the minutes but it divides into 108 hours per unit.

 

 

Exactly:

 

Required courses.

1. For purposes of this subdivision, a unit means 6,480 minutes of instruction per school year.
2. Instruction in the following subjects shall be required:
   1. For grades one through six: arithmetic, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history, science, health education, music, visual arts, physical education, bilingual education and/or English as a second language where the need is indicated.
   2. For grades seven and eight: English (two units); history and geography (two units); science (two units); mathematics (two units); physical education (on a regular basis); health education (on a regular basis); art (one-half unit); music (one-half unit); practical arts (on a regular basis); and library skills (on a regular basis). The units required herein are cumulative requirements for both grades seven and eight.
   3. The following courses shall be taught at least once during the first eight grades: United States history, New York State history, and the Constitutions of the United States and New York State.
   4. For grades 9 through 12: English (four units); social studies (four units), which includes one unit of American history, one-half unit in participation in government, and one- half unit of economics; mathematics (two units); science (two units); art and/or music (one unit); health education (one-half unit); physical education (two units); and three units of electives. The units required herein are cumulative requirements for grades 9 through 12.

 

Now, whether I could graduate a kid without any mathematics, for example, maybe. Like, if the kid does 12960 min of math in high school, and gets Fs in all of it, maybe I *can* graduate the kid as a homeschooler... I'm not sure. But I certainly can't choose to just not do any math in high school. Of course, private schools have regulations about what they have to teach too, and they're still private schools as well. 

[luuknam]

But that's the parents are complying with the homeschool laws in the state; that makes them homeschoolers.

 

 

Right. But suppose there is some imaginary state where the law says that as a homeschooler you have to use these books, give these tests, use these rubrics, for these amounts of time on these days of the week, then would you still be a homeschooler? Legally speaking, yes. But the parent would not have any of the freedoms that some people in this thread mentioned as the things that distinguish homeschoolers from public/private schoolers using an online program.

[TheBugs]

In my state, Florida, homeschoolers can take class through the Florida Virtual School Flex program. They can take one class or a full load and still be considered homeschoolers and they have to submit a letter of intent and have yearly evaluations as homeschooler. If you are in the flex program FLVS does not issue a diploma. But a student can enroll in FLVS fulltime as a public school student and receive a high school diploma from FLVS. A homeschooler and a public school student could be taking the same class. But I guess the difference is about who is ultimately in charge of the education, the parent or the school district.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Is the same true to an extent (I don't mean legally in your state, but sort of more generally, or logically) if say the parent used a boxed program for all the school years?  I have not used boxed curricula, but my impression is that you sign up with something like Sonlight or Abeka or whatever and they send you all the materials for all the subjects - I don't know if they go through high school, but let's assume they do.  Would that student be homeschooled, since another entity (the creator of the all-in-one curriculum) directs the education, and the parent just chooses the provider (much like choosing an online K12 type provider) and teaches the material? 

 

Does the answer differ if the parent pays for it or the state pays for it?  Do states with those charter things that give you $2k/year or whatever per kid pay for things like Sonlight?  If they do, and the parent just chooses that instead of an online option, is the child homeschooling or not?

 

Is the online-ness the difference?  Is it the fact that the parent is teaching?  If it is the latter, will my child be homeschooled if she takes all of her classes outsourced in HS, even if they are outsourced to different providers?  

 

If instead she took all courses through one outsourced provider, say PA Homeschoolers for the APs or something, would she be homeschooled?  I wouldn't be doing the teaching or grading, right?

 

Those companies that sell boxed homeschool curricula only sell the curricula, they do not direct the education. Once the parent owns the curricula, then it's the parent's choice of what to use, or not to use, out of it.

 

 

Here is one view of the difference between online schooling and homeschooling.

[GoodGrief]

If you’re educated at home and your mom is overseeing everything, I can see calling yourself a homeschooler because you’re living that lifestyle. As far a colleges are concerned, if your curriculum is virtually the same as what is used in your local schools, I don’t think they’d view your education as anything that stands out from that of public school kids. Completing that program demands time that you won’t have to do anything outside the box in those subjects. You certainly don’t get the benefits of a differentiated curriculum.

 

I’m not sure what colleges actually view homeschoolers that favorably, but I can see them backing off this position when viewing transcripts where public school online becomes a more common model.

 

FWIW, the govt-funded homeschool programs that my kids have used do not use the curriculum available in the public schools...I mean, you could seek that out, I suppose. But it would be an unusual choice. My kids used Singapore, Miquon, Rod and Staff, and plenty o' Well Trained Mind materials. One of my high schoolers used a US History plan that I got right off this forum :-) And certainly the way the days played out was way different from a building-based program. I have a child in a building-based middle school now...her education is entirely different than what her sisters had going on.

 

However, my older two were legally enrolled in a school, and for college purposes, I would not apply as an independent homeschooler (as much as I might be tempted, given the high level of disorganization in the typical homeschool program office :laugh:). I'd also be concerned about any potential problems were it to be discovered later that the student had, in fact, been enrolled in a school, be it one without classrooms. On the other hand, for those of us in these situations, I do see the need for clarification in the application as to how that education was carried out. Even here on a homeschool forum, it's clear that many do not really understand how much the programs can vary. Our state's programs are particularly unique. I have never heard of another state with similar options.

Edited December 11, 2017 by GoodGrief

[KungFuPanda]

FWIW, the govt-funded homeschool programs that my kids have used do not use the curriculum available in the public schools...I mean, you could seek that out, I suppose. But it would be an unusual choice. My kids used Singapore, Miquon, Rod and Staff, and plenty o' Well Trained Mind materials. One of my high schoolers used a US History plan that I got right off this forum :-) And certainly the way the days played out was way different from a building-based program. I have a child in a building-based middle school now...her education is entirely different than what her sisters had going on.

 

However, my older two were legally enrolled in a school, and for college purposes, I would not apply as an independent homeschooler (as much as I might be tempted, given the high level of disorganization in the typical homeschool program office :laugh:). I'd also be concerned about any potential problems were it to be discovered later that the student had, in fact, been enrolled in a school, be it one without classrooms. On the other hand, for those of us in these situations, I do see the need for clarification in the application as to how that education was carried out. Even here on a homeschool forum, it's clear that many do not really understand how much the programs can vary. Our state's programs are particularly unique. I have never heard of another state with similar options.

If you can pick and choose your own curricula and have the freedom to tweak it or design some subjects yourself or even go off-book with them AND get the state to pay for it, then that is awesome. You’re still homeschooling but with tax support. However, if you’re doing a public online charter where you can’t really make many choices, or change curriculum if something isn’t working, and a computer controls your child’s output and grades, then that’s a whole different animal. I think it’s these at-home public school kits that have people hesitant to call it homeschooling just because the computer is in your home. It’s like the world’s biggest snow day packet.

[EmilyGF]

For colleges, the idea that misrepresenting oneself as a homeschooler could cause admission to be revoked is real.

 

 

My friend’s sister’s admission was revoked for something (she’d even moved into the dorm when they realized they had sort of stretched the truth on her application) and she was never readmitted to the college.

 

 

Emily

 

[justasque]

What a particular student might consider themselves - homeschooler or not - is neither here nor there; it's what the college considers you that matters.

On all the college apps I've helped various kids fill out, they specifically ask you to list ALL of the schools you have attended, high school and/or college, and to submit official transcripts from those schools.  lf you've attended a public cyber-charter high school, then you would be obligated to list that school and submit their transcripts.  In that situation, I don't see any way you could legitimately claim to be a homeschooler.  You couldn't take the work and re-package it as "homeschooling" and leave out the fact that you were enrolled in the school and earned credits through the school.  The fact that the work was done at home, and that a parent played a facilitator role in delivering the content, is neither here nor there.  The school awarded the credits, and must be mentioned in the college application.

Now if you'd done a blend of credits earned through homeschooling vs. credits earned through a school or other credit-awarding organization, then again  you'd need to list the school and submit transcripts, plus do the corresponding paperwork around the homeschooled credits.  The homeschooling parent might submit  a document which lists all of the credits earned in one Master Transcript, for ease of reference, clearly noting who awarded the credit for a particular class.

But the one thing you could NOT do is to take credits earned through a school (private, public, online, correspondence, DE, etc) and present them as if they were earned through "homeschooling" and leave out the fact that they were in fact earned through a school.
As to whether a college would consider a student with such  a blend of credits  "homeschooler", would be up to the individual college.  and like a PP said, the key is to be transparent and honest in the application process, so that it's all above board; different schools will handle things differently.  

[Roadrunner]

So a person who uses Wilson Hill for 3 courses and PAH for the other 2 is not a homeschooler? How would a college look at that?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Roadrunner

[GoodGrief]

 

For colleges, the idea that misrepresenting oneself as a homeschooler could cause admission to be revoked is real.

 

 

My friend’s sister’s admission was revoked for something (she’d even moved into the dorm when they realized they had sort of stretched the truth on her application) and she was never readmitted to the college.

 

 

Emily

 

 

Yes, and rightfully so.

[foxbridgeacademy]

IMO both are HSer's and mom should do what's right for her kid as long as it falls within the confines of the law.  Other people's morality/ethics means very little to me and I how I live my life.  

[Carrie12345]

IMO both are HSer's and mom should do what's right for her kid as long as it falls within the confines of the law.  Other people's morality/ethics means very little to me and I how I live my life.  

 

Generally speaking, sure. But the question was about college applications, which themselves aren't a matter of *law*, but perception. My state law requires 3 credits of science for graduation, but colleges aren't obligated to consider that sufficient. Nor are they required to consider my made up 4th credit worthy of their standards.

 

If someone really wants to get into a particular school, they should probably do what that particular school wants.  Contact the school.

[DawnM]

This became a huge issue in our homeschool only scout troop.  In order to be a "homeschool only chartering troop" we could ONLY take boys (and girls for Venturing) who were legally homeschooling.

 

If you go to a private "homeschool school" for part time school you could say you were homeschooling

EXCEPT- you could not go to the one that got actually private school status, because they decided to get their school labeled as a private school "school" so if you went there you no longer had to register with the state as a homeschooler, so you couldn't be part of our troop.

 

And you could use K12 online if you paid for it, because the state recognized that as a HS family, but if you got it free through the state, you were no longer considered a HSer by the state, so you couldn't join our troop.

 

It was dicey.  People got upset.

 

But Boy Scouts of America said that if you want a HS only troop, you have to charter saying you will only take legal homeschoolers.  Once you take someone not homeschooled, you have to take everyone who isn't homeschooled.

 

 

[TravelingChris]

All three of my kids were homeschooled through high school.  Child number one got his diploma from CLonlara but it was clear that he was homeschooled. Child number 2 got a diploma from me because that was what we needed to do in that state.  Child number three got a diploma from a church school because when she started and I think up to maybe her last year, that was the only option for homeschooling.  In all three cases, I did the majority of teaching, designed the curriculum, and generally directed the kid's education.  Never did we enroll in a public school.  In CA, which was the second state we officially homeschooled in, we were a private school.  

[JudoMom]

I don't see this as an ethics question, and see it as a sliding scale.

 

I don't see how it matters who pays, if the parent are not actually doing the educating in either case. Whether you pay for the online school and the school does the teaching and grading, or somebody else pays for the online school and the school does the teaching and grading has the same outcome. If the parents' sole responsibility is to put the grades on a piece of paper, but they have not actually educated their kid, it's exactly the same to me.

 

What about parents who outsource highschool to DE? Are they "homeschoolers"? Does it depend on how many hours the kid takes? Would you make a difference whether the kid takes in seat or online classes?

 

I think this opens more cans of worms...

Just to answer your last questions for my state, yes.

 

My oldest two are DE and it's taxpayer funded through a school in my state. As long as they take 11 hours or below a semester, they are legally homeschoolers under our state law. I make the HS transcript, I decide graduation requirements, we must follow hs law for testing, etc. Once they hit 12+ hours a semester, they become ps students. They must meet the school's requirements for graduation, and the school providing the funding will make the transcript, and they must follow ps law for testing.

 

My youngest 2 go to a 1 day a week enrichment program through a different school district. Again, under state law, they are legally homeschoolers.

 

In my state, it's easy to legally tell who is a homeschooler and who isn't, because hsers have to take a nationally normed test and the test the psers take doesn't meet the legal requirements because it's a state test.

[maize]

Ask the college.

 

One university my children will be looking at treats cyber charter school graduates as homeschoolers--meaning it won't look at transcripts at all except for any accredited classes; admission is based primarily on test scores.

[mschickie]

Except that in NYS, you can't just do w/e you want, even as a homeschooler. I'm not there yet, but iirc, at the higher grade levels you have to teach certain subjects for specific numbers of hours per subject, covering specific things (even now, I have to cover specific stuff like "fire safety"). 

 

Btw, not saying that homeschoolers in NY aren't homeschoolers... just that the lines of "well, the parent decides graduation criteria etc" get blurred in a high regulation state.

 

 

The state does not tell you how to cover Fire Safety or what topics in Fire Safety to cover.  Yes there are a few required subjects but the state does not dictate the content or the length of time on them especially in 1st-6th

 

As for the 7-12 requirements they are a lot less rigorous than the state requires of ps or private school regents students and the hours are less than what most colleges look for when determining a credit.   

 

 

The state does list the subjects that need to be covered and the most restrictive is in the area of Social Studies where a credit of US History, 1/2 credit of Economics and 1/2 a credit of Participation in Government are required along with 2 electives.  The state does not tell you what topics to teach or when to teach them in high school.  You could choose to do all your Social Studies credits in one year once you get to 9th grade  if you wanted.  The rest of the requirements are just general credits in math, science, English....    It is very basic.

 

 

As for the hours NYS only requires 108 hours for a full credit where many colleges look for a Carnegie credit which is 120. 

 

So as a parent I can determine what the content of any of the courses my child does.  I can choose the amount of time spent on these courses.  Even for high school I can choose to have my child do 1/2 credit course, 1/4 credit course or a full credit course  as long as it adds up in the end.  So even though there are some regulations to follow the parent is the director of the content the student learns.

[GoodGrief]

The state does not tell you how to cover Fire Safety or what topics in Fire Safety to cover.  Yes there are a few required subjects but the state does not dictate the content or the length of time on them especially in 1st-6th

 

As for the 7-12 requirements they are a lot less rigorous than the state requires of ps or private school regents students and the hours are less than what most colleges look for when determining a credit.   

 

 

The state does list the subjects that need to be covered and the most restrictive is in the area of Social Studies where a credit of US History, 1/2 credit of Economics and 1/2 a credit of Participation in Government are required along with 2 electives.  The state does not tell you what topics to teach or when to teach them in high school.  You could choose to do all your Social Studies credits in one year once you get to 9th grade  if you wanted.  The rest of the requirements are just general credits in math, science, English....    It is very basic.

 

 

As for the hours NYS only requires 108 hours for a full credit where many colleges look for a Carnegie credit which is 120. 

 

So as a parent I can determine what the content of any of the courses my child does.  I can choose the amount of time spent on these courses.  Even for high school I can choose to have my child do 1/2 credit course, 1/4 credit course or a full credit course  as long as it adds up in the end.  So even though there are some regulations to follow the parent is the director of the content the student learns.

That actually sounds more invasive/micromanaging than what we experienced in our publicly-funded homeschool program in our state.

[mschickie]

That actually sounds more invasive/micromanaging than what we experienced in our publicly-funded homeschool program in our state.

It really is nothing.  I do not even think about the state regs they are so below what I require from my kids.  The 108 minutes a credit really just comes down to 3 hours of work a week for 36 weeks, for a high school level class that is nothing.  As for the required courses NYS requires

4 credits in English (well I would do that no matter what)

4 credits in Social Studies (1 in US and the 2 1/2 credit courses plus 2 electives...the economics and the government are not my favorite but it is minor and I can teach it however I want. )

2 credits in Science (we do 4)

2 credits in Math (we do 4)

1 credit in Art or Music (we normally have more than that)

2 credits in Phys Ed 

3 credits in electives (we do way more than 3 electives)

 

You as a parent say what you cover for each of the subjects.  If you want your English course to be a drama course, you can or if you want it to be focused on writing you can do that too.  One year I did Movies as Literature with our eldest.  I will probably do that for dd too since it was a good course.

 

Many homeschoolers take courses at the local Community Colleges and those one semester courses are considered the equivalent of one high school credit.  So it is very easy to complete the official regs early.

[luuknam]

It really is nothing.  I do not even think about the state regs they are so below what I require from my kids.  

 

 

Um, you have to file a bunch of paperwork, so, not thinking about it is not an option. Also, just because the reqs happen to line up with what you'd do anyway, doesn't mean that they line up with what everyone would do. As a parent, you do not just get to choose what you want to teach - the state has rules, and quite a lot of them. Just because those rules happen to line up with what most colleges want to see anyway, doesn't mean they're not rules, and doesn't mean they're not a PITA for some people. (and it'd be one thing if they were graduation requirements - but they're not... you have to do those things or you won't be allowed to homeschool your kid, in other words, you're not the one in charge of what gets taught in your own homeschool)

 

To be clear, I'm not even saying they're bad requirements... just that you can't just do whatever you want. Some PPs mentioned the parent being able to decide what is taught as the criterion for whether you're a homeschooler - well, I can't just choose what to teach. I have *limited* choice. I can't just say "no math" or w/e. 

[freesia]

Um, you have to file a bunch of paperwork, so, not thinking about it is not an option. Also, just because the reqs happen to line up with what you'd do anyway, doesn't mean that they line up with what everyone would do. As a parent, you do not just get to choose what you want to teach - the state has rules, and quite a lot of them. Just because those rules happen to line up with what most colleges want to see anyway, doesn't mean they're not rules, and doesn't mean they're not a PITA for some people. (and it'd be one thing if they were graduation requirements - but they're not... you have to do those things or you won't be allowed to homeschool your kid, in other words, you're not the one in charge of what gets taught in your own homeschool)

 

To be clear, I'm not even saying they're bad requirements... just that you can't just do whatever you want. Some PPs mentioned the parent being able to decide what is taught as the criterion for whether you're a homeschooler - well, I can't just choose what to teach. I have *limited* choice. I can't just say "no math" or w/e. 

 

Exactly.

 

And as I said above, there is no one definition of what homeschooling means.  Each State sets it's own criteria and some of the definitions people use don't fit depending on the State.

 

And, as I also said, my son is legally both a homeschooler and a private school student because of a difference in definitions between the state he resides and the state of the cover school that we use.  Again, legally he is both.  There is no getting around that. So, I just explain it to the schools.

 

And, if someone in Tn. said we weren't homeschooling because we use a private school cover school, they would be legally wrong, because NY says we are homeschooling.

 

It's confusing. 

[luuknam]

And, as I also said, my son is legally both a homeschooler and a private school student because of a difference in definitions between the state he resides and the state of the cover school that we use. 

 

 

Wait, you're in NY and use a cover school from another state? What state? How does that work?

[freesia]

Wait, you're in NY and use a cover school from another state? What state? How does that work?

 

We use the cover school by choice.  It is not recognized by NY.

 

I do it because NY law says that homeschooling parents cannot issue a diploma in NY. Now, most of the people I know interpret that as meaning just that NY won't recognize the diploma as valid.  However, I am taking them at their word and I want my children (particularly my girls) to have a diploma which is recognized as a diploma in at least one state. I don't want them in a state which recognizes homeschool diplomas saying, well in NY you can't give a diploma so you never got one at all so therefore you aren't a highschool graduate, you have high school completion (equivalent to a GED).  If we were in a State that let us issue diplomas I wouldn't bother.

 

But, I am the only one I know who cares/thinks like this and it makes no difference in college acceptances except it makes my job more complicated because I have to explain everything.

 

[justasque]

IMO both are HSer's and mom should do what's right for her kid as long as it falls within the confines of the law.  Other people's morality/ethics means very little to me and I how I live my life.  

 

In this case, though, we are talking about how your child represents themselves in their college applications.   And thus not taking into account other people's morality/ethics can seriously affect your child's life. 

 

As previous posters have noted, if your child is enrolled in public school, and graduates from that school, it may not be *illegal* to fail to mention the school enrollment/diploma and instead represent the child as a "homeschooler", but there could be serious repercussions. To do this you'd have to omit any mention of the school on your application - something that all of the 15+ applications I've helped to fill out specifically warn against.  This would be considered a lie of omission, and a quite serious one.  If/when the deceit was discovered, the college would be within its rights to rescind their offer of admission, kick out the student, and possibly keep the student's already-paid money.  AND if classes had already begun, the student would then have to explain all of that on their application to any subsequent colleges, for the rest of their lives, or risk it happening all over again.  .So it would be very rare circumstances indeed where doing this would be "what's right for your kid".

 

Obviously, some situations are complicated, especially when a college's guidelines don't take into account the diverse legal situations for homeschoolers in other states, and the wide variety of ways students who are educated at home can earn high school credits and high school diplomas.  In those cases a phone call to the admissions office (or several) will help you work out the best approach for your particular situation.

 

tl;dr - On college apps, be who you are, and be that well.

[poppy]

I live in a state that requires certain subjects be taught and I can guarantee you many /  most just don't follow the plan.  The schools here (MA) don't really have a means to enforce it.

 

Now as someone else said, if the question is, who is a homeschooler when it comes to  park day and field trips? Come one, come all!!!!!

 

If the question is,  are you a homeschooler if you jump through a funding group's hoops in order to get $$$$$? Eh.  Maybe? Depends.

 

If you are in public online school, I do not consider you a homeschooler.  That's not  a moral judgement.  It's just a definition. When my kids were in public I did tons of what some people call "afterschooling".   Enrichment, trips, reinforcement yadda yadda.  That to me is just parenting.  Just like "homeschooling" your 3 year old, just like ferrying your kid through through an online school at home.

[HS Mom in NC]

Let's suppose, for the purposes of argument, your child does K-12 (  or Acellus, or Compass Learning)  independently.  You pay out of pocket, use the curriculum, and teach your child. At the end of high school, you create the transcript.

What do you mean by "teach?" Do you mean you explicitly introduce, explain, model, demonstrate the concepts yourself rather than having the computer do it and then the parent answers questions and makes sure it's completed correctly like a public school parent would do with homework on a concept the public school teacher introduced, explained, modeled, and demonstrated to the student in class?

 

Let's suppose Suzie's kiddo uses K-12 (or Acellus, or Compass Learning, or any of the other resource providers that also offers an option to maintain grades)  through a cyber school. The state pays for it, she uses it to teach her child.  At the end of the day, the State or company  has created her transcript.

 

Which one of these children can apply to college as a 'home-schooler' or can both? 

Wouldn't that be up to the school? How does the school classify the homeschooler?  The legal definition of homeschooler varies by state, so that factors into the decision too/

 

Neither child has ever stepped inside a b&m school and Mom has always done all the teaching.

 

Has mom done all the teaching/explaining/demonstrating?  Does the K-12 have an option where the teaching/explanation/demonstration of concepts happens through some means on the computer and there's a way to opt out of computer generated teaching/explaining/demonstrating only happens with mom?

 

Can both Moms equally claim to have 'homeschooled' their child? 

Are you asking posters what they personally think?  Are you asking how the term is legally defined in their state? Are you asking how the school receiving the transcript classifies homeschoolers?

 

  Is the child who used a cyber-school ethically required to submit a transcript from the school as a 'public-schooler'.

 

Was the child legally registered as a homeschooler according to their state laws when using K-12 or were they legally registered as a public schooler when using K-12?

 

Would you feel the same if both moms used eclectic curricula chosen for their child  from an assortment of sources but one still had a cyber or charter umbrella?

 

Again, are you asking about our personal interpretations of what philosophically make a person a homeschooler or are you asking  legal question?

 

Consider that the reason for wanting to be a 'home-schooler' is because there are some colleges that look favorably upon kids educated at home.

 

Different people have different personal interpretations of what makes a person a homeschooler. 

 

I understand that post-secondary classes must follow a student but do you feel that a public school transcript must? 

 

So you want to know what posters here personally think rather than what the school(s) receiving the transcript(s) want?

 

[maize]

I live in a state that requires certain subjects be taught and I can guarantee you many / most just don't follow the plan. The schools here (MA) don't really have a means to enforce it.

 

Now as someone else said, if the question is, who is a homeschooler when it comes to park day and field trips? Come one, come all!!!!!

 

If the question is, are you a homeschooler if you jump through a funding group's hoops in order to get $$$$$? Eh. Maybe? Depends.

 

If you are in public online school, I do not consider you a homeschooler. That's not a moral judgement. It's just a definition. When my kids were in public I did tons of what some people call "afterschooling". Enrichment, trips, reinforcement yadda yadda. That to me is just parenting. Just like "homeschooling" your 3 year old, just like ferrying your kid through through an online school at home.

But there are charter schools with nothing online--parent picks the curriculum, parent teaches the child; school pays for curriculum, parent reports to school and maybe provides samples of child's work.

 

Child is enrolled in a school but their education is exactly as it would be if they were homeschooled independently--except parent has more resources to draw from.

 

Conversely a child could be registered as a homeschooler but have all their classes outsourced online or through co-ops--less actual home grown education than child #1.

 

I'm not saying one or the other of these is somehow superior, just that lines are blurry.

 

As far as the question of what to tell a college, I would let them know about the charter school enrollment and see what they want. The charter schools I have worked with do not assign grades so any transcript from them would be pretty bare bones.

Edited December 14, 2017 by maize

[Roadrunner]

But there are charter schools with nothing online--parent picks the curriculum, parent teaches the child; school pays for curriculum, parent reports to school and maybe provides samples of child's work.

 

Child is enrolled in a school but their education is exactly as it would be if they were homeschooled independently--except parent has more resources to draw from.

 

Conversely a child could be registered as a homeschooler but have all their classes outsourced online or through co-ops--less actual home grown education than child #1.

 

I'm not saying one or the other of these is somehow superior, just that lines are blurry.

 

As far as the question of what to tell a college, I would let them know about the charter school enrollment and see what they want. The charter schools I have worked with do not assign grades so any transcript from them would be pretty bare bones.

That is true in grades k - 8, but is this also true for high school?

Isn’t high school a lot more restrictive?

[Tammi K]

You asked some really good questions and make some excellent points.  I think I understand my position more clearly now, after reading a variety of responses. but since you were so thoughtful in your questions, I'll take a shot at answering.  (I'll delete my initial comments and just reply to yours or this post will be a mile long)

What do you mean by "teach?" Do you mean you explicitly introduce, explain, model, demonstrate the concepts yourself rather than having the computer do it and then the parent answers questions and makes sure it's completed correctly like a public school parent would do with homework on a concept the public school teacher introduced, explained, modeled, and demonstrated to the student in class?

 

K-12 was a poor example because it is a boxed curriculum as well as an on-line school. But, for the sake of this question, based on the circumstances causing the question assume that the only person to ever explicitly introduce, explain, model, demonstrate the concepts is the parent unless it is a co-op class or college class.

 

Wouldn't that be up to the school? How does the school classify the homeschooler?  The legal definition of homeschooler varies by state, so that factors into the decision too/

 

If by school you mean the Universities ( which was the point of the question) I have to admit, I NEVER actually considered that the simplest course of action was just to ASK them.  Of course, that seems obvious now, but when I posed the question, it never occurred to me that you could call the Admissions Dept and actually speak to someone.


Has mom done all the teaching/explaining/demonstrating?  Does the K-12 have an option where the teaching/explanation/demonstration of concepts happens through some means on the computer and there's a way to opt out of computer generated teaching/explaining/demonstrating only happens with mom?   Yes, and again, K-12 was a poor option for illustrating the question.

 

Are you asking posters what they personally think?  Are you asking how the term is legally defined in their state? Are you asking how the school receiving the transcript classifies homeschoolers?  Again, a very good question.  If it had occurred to me that parents can actually talk to perspective colleges, I probably never would have written the post. :tongue_smilie:



Was the child legally registered as a homeschooler according to their state laws when using K-12 or were they legally registered as a public schooler when using K-12?  That is where some of the confusion arose. My State is one of the few, perhaps the only one, where a parent can simply choose to not enroll their child and teach at home without any contact with the authorities at all. There is no supervision, oversight, or requirements that must be validated. You just simply 'do it.'

 

Again, are you asking about our personal interpretations of what philosophically make a person a homeschooler or are you asking  legal question?   I was more wondering if a parent had been a part of a structured system, albeit one that provides next to no interference with a parent's teaching, could the parent still call the child home-schooled.

 

Different people have different personal interpretations of what makes a person a homeschooler. 

:blink:

So you want to know what posters here personally think rather than what the school(s) receiving the transcript(s) want?   Yep, that's what I was wanting. But, like I said, I can't imagine why, but it never occurred to me to contact the actual schools who would be evaluating the student. :blushing:

 

So, after all of that, here's a brief run-down of how this all started. My state is unique in that it is vastly large with not a whole lot of people. Yet, schools still need a source of funds for their budgets.  Many districts around the state school in small villages with a small number of students and aren't able to afford programs that would make their students employable should they ever decide to seek employment on the outside.  About 30ish or so years ago ( it varies by district and program) someone got the idea that they could offer an 'extension program' of sort, enroll the students as a distant education student, get  state money for having the student on the books, allow the parents to have access to a small portion of the funds to use for their child and keeo the bulk of it to enrich their own b&m curriculum. The only consistent restriction is that the materials purchased with the funds must be secular.   Each program has their own little quirks and limits, but that's the gist.  This system works so well, that there are numerous programs all around the state that provide similar options.  (The first program we used was so 'hands-off' that I never even saw or spoke with my 'contact teacher' for the first two years we were enrolled. The current one we use has more 'hoops' to jump through but offers way more allotment funds. However, I still teach whatever material I choose. My choices are not at odds with the program. If they were and I felt restricted, I could certainly avail myself of one of the many other offering available.)

 

The post came about because I was speaking with someone about the frustration with rules and policies being changed mid-year with a decision not to award weighted credit to college classes after the semester already started.  The person I was speaking with casually mentioned just 'chucking the whole thing' and just applying as a 'regular home-schooler'.  That got me thinking.  And there, in a very large nutshell, is what started this thread.  Seriously, why it didn't occur to me that it would be as simple as calling the colleges to get their answer is beyond me.  All I can say is I'm old and the mind is slipping. :blush:
 

[maize]

That is true in grades k - 8, but is this also true for high school?

Isn’t high school a lot more restrictive?

Not here, no, unless you want the school to give an accredited transcript. It really varies from state to state.

[Arcadia]

The post came about because I was speaking with someone about the frustration with rules and policies being changed mid-year with a decision not to award weighted credit to college classes after the semester already started. The person I was speaking with casually mentioned just 'chucking the whole thing' and just applying as a 'regular home-schooler'. That got me thinking. And there, in a very large nutshell, is what started this thread. Seriously, why it didn't occur to me that it would be as simple as calling the colleges to get their answer is beyond me.

 

Ethically speaking, that boils down to who is calculating the GPA, the charter school that is disbursing the funds/curriculum or the parent. If I use charter school funds for 12th grade and then I am not happy with the weighted GPA on the transcript they issued my child, can I ethically generated my own transcript with my own weighted GPA for my child?

 

I would feel differently if the child was with a charter school for 9th to 11th grade for the sake of funds, then homeschool for 12th grade and the parent issues the final transcript with her way of calculating weighted GPA. I would still expect the parent to list the charter school for 9th to 11th grade.

 

We have a case of a Palo Alto high school student who did not qualify for a U of Oregon scholarship because the public high school does not included weighted GPA on the transcript. The student narrowly missed the GPA cutoff using her unweighted GPA. Palo Alto did write a letter to U of Oregon to explain but the university was adamant about awarding based only on GPA on transcripts. So now Palo Alto would have both weighted and unweighted GPA for their students transcripts. It would be unethical if the parent generate their own transcript for U of Oregon pretending that their child is a homeschooler just so that the weighted GPA would qualify their child for a scholarship.

 

Some colleges recalculate GPA based on their own formula anyway. UC and CSU do recalculate GPAs for college admissions.

[justasque]

...

 

The post came about because I was speaking with someone about the frustration with rules and policies being changed mid-year with a decision not to award weighted credit to college classes after the semester already started.  The person I was speaking with casually mentioned just 'chucking the whole thing' and just applying as a 'regular home-schooler'.  That got me thinking.  And there, in a very large nutshell, is what started this thread.  Seriously, why it didn't occur to me that it would be as simple as calling the colleges to get their answer is beyond me.  All I can say is I'm old and the mind is slipping. :blush:
 

 

Interesting!
So, if the program is largely hands-off when it comes to curricula, how do they award credits for high school courses?

Side note - I have quite frequently called admissions offices with various questions.  Most of the time they are very helpful.  One school in particular was utterly unorganized and different people gave different answers.  If answers are critical, get them in writing.  

Also, in the situation you describe, I would try to make sure the school got as much useful info as possible about the child's education.  My general approach has been to make a list of information we want the school to have, then see how that information can fit into the school's application forms.  So for example a particularly important summer job might fit under employment, or activities, or be covered in an essay or short answer question, or put into an optional resume, so long as it gets in there - different places depending on what each application has space for.

[GoodGrief]

 

The post came about because I was speaking with someone about the frustration with rules and policies being changed mid-year with a decision not to award weighted credit to college classes after the semester already started.  The person I was speaking with casually mentioned just 'chucking the whole thing' and just applying as a 'regular home-schooler'.  That got me thinking.  And there, in a very large nutshell, is what started this thread.  Seriously, why it didn't occur to me that it would be as simple as calling the colleges to get their answer is beyond me.  All I can say is I'm old and the mind is slipping. :blush:

 

 

Tammi, fwiw, the colleges will, for the most part, look at what your student has done and calculate their own GPAs for admission and scholarship purposes. When you call to talk to them, ask that question...but it's a really common practice, especially with selective schools. They will see that dual enrollment occurred and take that into account. Different schools calculate their GPAs in a variety of ways, so the colleges have to find a way to compare apples to apples.

[GoodGrief]

...

 

Interesting!

So, if the program is largely hands-off when it comes to curricula, how do they award credits for high school courses?

 

 

 

 

It varies from program to program (I am in the same state as Tammi), but generally one submits a learning plan at the beginning of the year...course title, rough summary of content, methods of evaluation, grading scale. You choose how much credit will be awarded...be it 0.5 credits, 1.0 credits, whatever. If the student is doing dual enrollment, the school typically awards 1.0 credit per semester. There are a certain number of credits required for graduation, like any school, and specific course requirements generally mirror those of the high schools in the home district.

 

For my last graduate, her contact teacher had never actually even seen her until she made a speech at graduation (which was the first time most of the students in the program had seen each other too.)

Edited December 14, 2017 by GoodGrief