Magazine article: Better Off Without College

[creekland]

The rate of unemployment among academics (and the conditions even of many who are employed) should be concerning.  

 

Except... according to the REAL stats I posted earlier, the rate and income average sure beats the alternatives.

 

Stats do not apply to the individual, of course, but if the rate of unemployment among those with higher education is concerning, the rate of those without it should be super concerning, esp the lower one goes.

 

From what I've seen (personal data points vs the vast stats I posted), those who have trouble holding jobs with appropriate education for the job often have other issues - usually people skills.  Finding that first job can be tricky, esp in saturated fields, but that all goes along with the advice we share among each other to help assist with the odds.

[creekland]

But I will say, that the am not impressed by the level of reading I see at my daughter's middle school.  They don't expect much in terms of amount, or content.  The books my dd12, who is very bright, brings home are pretty much teen novels that were written in the last 5 years and do nothing to improve her reading ability.  They don't read books or even textbooks for other classes, they seem to watch movies and read articles.

 

I am not a person who things everyone needs to be a big reader, but for kids that have the ability to become good readers, they are totally left to themselves to get there.  I can easily imagine that they come to university with little experience reading large amounts of difficult text, with difficult ideas.  Or even just reading quite a lot in a short time, or that they might actually want to do that.

 

This is a major problem at our school.  A middle school English teacher (8th grade) confided in me that she HAD to use a 4th grade level book for her class to read - mandated by her admin.  Why?  They mainstream the classes and they didn't want the poor readers among them to feel left out.  She asked, "What about the kids who are reading at a 12th grade level?" and was told they'd do fine, so don't worry about them.

 

Then these kids who don't put in more effort on their own get to the high school knowing what antonyms and synonyms are - those were covered in class.  What they don't understand are words like tedious - words that could be found in grade appropriate books.

 

It's one of the chief reasons we switched to homeschooling.

 

Our high school offers levels (not mainstreaming), but it's difficult for the teachers to make up lost time with those who aren't used to putting in some effort.

 

Our reading scores (state-wide and SAT) tend to be average to slightly below average.  This will continue to happen when students who are capable are never challenged or exposed to higher levels.

[Bluegoat]

This can depend upon the college.  Middle son sat in on a class at another school and was afraid that he would be left out since he hadn't been able to prepare or do the reading etc.  Instead he found out he knew plenty and was well equipped to join in the discussion because the other students hadn't prepared and often knew less than he did.   :glare:

 

He came out of the class and shared with us how different that experience was than at his own school.

 

The levels of each college were different.  It's one of the reasons I know College A is not the same as College B.  A student who is used to preparing ahead of time and jumping into a discussion from essentially everyone being prepared is going to be disillusioned at a school where the norm is to teach the material as one goes along. They will still do well and Profs will likely love them, but their experience is not the same.  A student who doesn't like to read/prepare is going to be left behind at a school where most put effort in.

 

At our high school very few put effort in ahead of time.  Those who do are those who head to the better schools and come back eager to join their ranks.  They find several other students like them instead of just a few (if that many)!  They like being part of the majority.

 

There are differences, but I also do think it's a pretty overall trend.  This professor teaching at exactly the kind of institution that is most likely to attract students who will do the reading, it's what they go there for, and they still aren't reading at the same level - asking kids to read an entire academic book in a week, not an official part of the course, on top of the actual class reading, seems to be unheard of.  The students complain.  They still produce some great scholars that go on to be at the top of their area of study, and are absolutely well-read, because that is the academic culture.  But the majority of the students - not so much, and they think the requirements for that are unreasonable.

 

Actually, I read a comment recently by a professor at a prominent university, in a worldwide sense,  saying that he finds even the faculty under about 40 don't read much. :confused1:

[regentrude]

This is a major problem at our school.  A middle school English teacher (8th grade) confided in me that she HAD to use a 4th grade level book for her class to read - mandated by her admin.  Why?  They mainstream the classes and they didn't want the poor readers among them to feel left out.  She asked, "What about the kids who are reading at a 12th grade level?" and was told they'd do fine, so don't worry about them.

 

Then these kids who don't put in more effort on their own get to the high school knowing what antonyms and synonyms are - those were covered in class.  What they don't understand are words like tedious - words that could be found in grade appropriate books.

 

It's one of the chief reasons we switched to homeschooling.

 

Same here. The public school education marches at the beat of the lowest drummer, without any tracking. Because "elite" is a dirty word in this country, and the tender plant of self esteem has to be protected from the harsh wind of reality at all cost.

That is precisely why we homeschool.

Edited December 11, 2017 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

Except... according to the REAL stats I posted earlier, the rate and income average sure beats the alternatives.

 

Stats do not apply to the individual, of course, but if the rate of unemployment among those with higher education is concerning, the rate of those without it should be super concerning, esp the lower one goes.

 

From what I've seen (personal data points vs the vast stats I posted), those who have trouble holding jobs with appropriate education for the job often have other issues - usually people skills.  Finding that first job can be tricky, esp in saturated fields, but that all goes along with the advice we share among each other to help assist with the odds.

 

By academics, I mean people in universities, who tend to have the highest levels of education in an are.

 

Now, part of this is the awful hiring practices of universities, but it's also a matter of - there are limited positions in society for those kinds of people.  There always have been, and there probably always have been others who could be educated to that level too, but weren't.  We've tended, I think, to give young adults the impression that if they have the ability, not to get that formal education is a waste of their potential.  But of course, once you spend 10 or more years on an education, most actually need a paying position, preferably one that can support a family.  

 

As for the more general stat, to me all it says is that we've a vocational system - as in the whole world of work - that is broken, and it's not giving reasonable results.  I would normally expect education to pay off - but what we shouldn't expect is a higher credential to be the point, rather than ability.  I think it will change, because the debt is becoming a real factor in people's success in life - not at a job, but in terms of actually getting started at living.  

 

Someone I was talking to recently mentioned to be how everyone seems to be getting masters degrees lately, particularly these remote ones, where only a small portion is on-campus.  I have a few of them in my immediate and extended family, and what strikes me is how much they are a way of credentialing job experience - a way that costs a bucket of money for the individual.  Sure, it may give an edge later in salary, that's why people do it - but there is something very unsavoury about it - my sister has one, now, she's a very skilled IT person and manager.  But a masters degree?  This is someone who could barely sit through a university lecture course which is why she has no undergraduate degree.  

 

What's really going on, there?  I think it mirrors the way we now treat university education in general.

This is a major problem at our school.  A middle school English teacher (8th grade) confided in me that she HAD to use a 4th grade level book for her class to read - mandated by her admin.  Why?  They mainstream the classes and they didn't want the poor readers among them to feel left out.  She asked, "What about the kids who are reading at a 12th grade level?" and was told they'd do fine, so don't worry about them.

 

Then these kids who don't put in more effort on their own get to the high school knowing what antonyms and synonyms are - those were covered in class.  What they don't understand are words like tedious - words that could be found in grade appropriate books.

 

It's one of the chief reasons we switched to homeschooling.

 

Our high school offers levels (not mainstreaming), but it's difficult for the teachers to make up lost time with those who aren't used to putting in some effort.

 

Our reading scores (state-wide and SAT) tend to be average to slightly below average.  This will continue to happen when students who are capable are never challenged or exposed to higher levels.

 

 

Yup, this concerns me a lot.  Dd went to ps for language immersion, but we've had to insist on supplementing reading at home.  I don't think we'll be wanting to continue in immersion in hs, it's just not a good enough program.  There is a IB school up the road, so maybe we'll do that.  Or go back to homeschooling.

[Bluegoat]

I suppose one basic question is, as a society, about what % of the population would we expect to have different kinds of education?

 

A lot of the problems we have now at universities in North America seems to stem from the mid 20th century, when politicians decided,, rather arbitrarily, to try and have 60% university educated.  Also after that, many types of education that were separate were integrated into the university.

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

We strongly encourage college.  We weren't sure our oldest could do it, with his LDs and Asperger's (if he doesn't' see the point in a subject, he won't do it..... :crying: )  But he has gone to CC for almost 2 years and is transferring to a 4 year in January.....with scholarships for merit! I know this isn't "we are out of the woods" yet for him, but we are so thrilled for him.

 

you give me hope.   schooling with dudeling is a struggle every day.  I put him in the ps because they can offer more support than my sanity could provide.  and I still go through so much of his school work with him - while he fights me the entire time.  last summer, even his ped optometrist sat down and talked to him about his attitude towards school work.  she bluntly told him he's one of the smartest kids she sees - and she sees at least a couple dozen different kids every single day. and that he has to do the boring stuff so he can do the interesting stuff later.  he was actually listening to her.

we did finally start him on rx for adhd, and that has seemed to help him with his focus.

 

Maybe, but it's relevant, I think.

 

I was talking to the professor who was giving a book group series I went to recently, and one of the things he mentioned was that it is really difficult to get the students to read now.  Which is kind of the bread and butter of humanities students.  He's found that in the past, not only was it taken for granted that the students would read the text for class, they'd also read the supporting materials - you could suggest a book - an academic book -  one week, and the students would largely go and look for it and read it, often before the next class, and be able to bring all kinds of ideas with them to enlarge the topic.

 

Now he finds to get the students through the texts that the class is studying, he has to go through it slowly over the course of the semester with a lot of support.  Their reading skills are just not there. 

 

 I don't know if this is about having less time because of working, or not getting reading kills in high school, or a cultural shift away from print, but it seems pretty significant and I would think depressing for an academic in the humanities.  

 

my engineering student son has to do a lot of reading.  it's technical, but it's still reading.

 

1dd was  a humanities/classics major at a top tier school.  (she works in stem.)  even there - kids would try to skip out on the work.  there is one very memorable day where a prof absolutely laid into the class about not reading the assignments. 

[rainbowmama]

Yes, but that signal is not a worthless measure for an employer, either. You know what is difficult about being a contractor? Trying to hire competent employees in a field where people do not need any kind of college. Sorry for how sterotypical this will sound, but a lot of the population that would never go to college and therefore tries to get work as a plumber’s helper are not desirable employees. We have hired many people with substance abuse problems. One ended up in prison. A few have been functionally illiterate. Many came from severely troubled backgrounds. In only a couple cases were they “diamonds in the rough†who really just needed a dang break to rise from their past.

 

So, yeah, if an employer can say, “we need a bachelor’s for any job here,†even if it’s working as a file clerk, there is a reason for that. An employer can make a basic assumption that a college degree means you at least have your act together enough to complete a program of instruction for four years. We don’t have the luxury of being able to require that because no college graduate wants to dig sewer and water trenches for $10/hour. So we have to look for employees among people with no college, which means we take our chances with people who may not have gone to college because they could not have met the basic requirements there anyway.

 

Sorry this sounds classist. I am from poor background myself and I am grateful someone took a chance on me with no degree. But that isn’t what I have typically seen in plumbing and construction.

 

Your experience of the trades is very different from ours. Are you union? My spouse is. You have to pass a test in order to get into the apprenticeship, so at least you are literate. You have to pass a drug test to get into the union and many jobs require random drug testing, so it's harder to have a drug problem (other than alcohol) than many white collar jobs. I know at least some of the employers do background checks, because my spouse has had them when changing companies.That said, the apprentices digging trenches are making significantly more than $10/hr. 

 

My spouse does not make six figures. He's probably at the top of where he can go without college. It did destroy his back. However, we are a single income family (and always have been) and home owners. He now works an office job related to plumbing. I really love the apprenticeship model. I really love that his company takes estimators and project managers from the field rather than people who have never worked construction. I would love to see this model implemented in more occupations. In the mean time, though? I would recommend my kids look hard at the trades. 

[Bluegoat]

you give me hope.   schooling with dudeling is a struggle every day.  I put him in the ps because they can offer more support than my sanity could provide.  and I still go through so much of his school work with him - while he fights me the entire time.  last summer, even his ped optometrist sat down and talked to him about his attitude towards school work.  she bluntly told him he's one of the smartest kids she sees - and she sees at least a couple dozen different kids every single day. and that he has to do the boring stuff so he can do the interesting stuff later.  he was actually listening to her.

we did finally start him on rx for adhd, and that has seemed to help him with his focus.

 

 

my engineering student son has to do a lot of reading.  it's technical, but it's still reading.

 

1dd was  a humanities/classics major at a top tier school.  (she works in stem.)  even there - kids would try to skip out on the work.  there is one very memorable day where a prof absolutely laid into the class about not reading the assignments. 

 

I've wondered about this reading thing with science vs humanities students

 

I think it is a different kind of reading.  I don't think one is really more difficult, but I do wonder if there is something that means it is easier to learn without being pushed by your school?  Or - I'm not sure.  Certainly, I found myself that in my first year of university, I had nothing that really prepared me for the types of books I had to read.  I don't know if that is true in sciences or not.

 

One thing I know though is a lot of universities use those arts credits, in first and second year especially, as a cash cow.  They are cheap to run so they really try and up the numbers - if an intro to mythology class gets 200 happy students every year, the administrators are very happy.  I had classes as a upper year student that had less than 10 students, I'm told they are no longer allowed to run classes like that for undergrads.

 

That has to affect the kinds of students they need to accommodate.  And why are they there?  They need the degree to get a good job.

[regentrude]

One thing I know though is a lot of universities use those arts credits, in first and second year especially, as a cash cow.  They are cheap to run so they really try and up the numbers - if an intro to mythology class gets 200 happy students every year, the administrators are very happy.  I had classes as a upper year student that had less than 10 students, I'm told they are no longer allowed to run classes like that for undergrads..

 

If the intro to mythology is the vehicle that gets students to engage with texts, to read and write, and to think and discuss about culture and the human condition, I am all for it. 

 

My colleagues who teach in the English department tell me the intro English courses are desperately needed because the incoming students' writing and comprehension abilities are so pathetic.

[creekland]

By academics, I mean people in universities, who tend to have the highest levels of education in an are.

 

If you are talking about students who want to be professors, then I agree with you that they might need a Plan B for their degree.  Actually, I think pretty much everyone should have a Plan B.  Still, the unemployment rate for those with a PhD is just 1.6% with an average income of $1664/week so they aren't all working at Starbucks or Walmart.  That works out to 86K per year on average not including any benefits, etc.

 

As for a decline in reading overall... yes, that's definitely happening.  I think cell phones and the internet play a major part.

 

FWIW, even in Med School middle son has come across fellow students who only study for the test and who feel they only need a passing grade on the test (passing levels are set pretty low for my personal standards). Some even play games on their phones while in class.  It's been a wee bit eye-opening for both of us.  Sometimes one expects our Ideal World to be the same as The Real World.  These are top students (supposedly) who made it in.  What happened?

[gardenmom5]

I've wondered about this reading thing with science vs humanities students

 

I think it is a different kind of reading.  I don't think one is really more difficult, but I do wonder if there is something that means it is easier to learn without being pushed by your school?  Or - I'm not sure.  Certainly, I found myself that in my first year of university, I had nothing that really prepared me for the types of books I had to read.  I don't know if that is true in sciences or not.

 

One thing I know though is a lot of universities use those arts credits, in first and second year especially, as a cash cow.  They are cheap to run so they really try and up the numbers - if an intro to mythology class gets 200 happy students every year, the administrators are very happy.  I had classes as a upper year student that had less than 10 students, I'm told they are no longer allowed to run classes like that for undergrads.

 

That has to affect the kinds of students they need to accommodate.  And why are they there?  They need the degree to get a good job.

 

dd's reading was classics reading.   so, very old writings.  often in classical greek and latin.   

as the parent of a classics major - I had to listen to her scream because the professor kept letting students in, and the class was too big (they sat around a conference table for class).  . . . . it had 17 students.  most were big at 10.  but my girls school was smaller than some high schools, and average class sizes (for most majors) was in the teens and twenties.   

 

one of the advantages my boys had by doing their first two years at a good local cc - small class sizes (usually in the 20s), and more hands on attention from teachers.  even  his humanities classes were smaller.  (he considered graphics, and had to do art.)

[Bluegoat]

If the intro to mythology is the vehicle that gets students to engage with texts, to read and write, and to think and discuss about culture and the human condition, I am all for it. 

 

My colleagues who teach in the English department tell me the intro English courses are desperately needed because the incoming students' writing and comprehension abilities are so pathetic.

 

But what does that mean for the students who would actually like to study at a university level?

 

To me this is part and parcel with the inflation of credentials.  You have universities dependent on increasing student numbers over many years.  You have students who need that piece of paper.  So the class is placed at a level where they can find 200 kids a year who can and are willing to complete it.  And if the teacher wants the class to read what actually would be reasonable, that's not on, and you a't offer that as a separate class either because it does not pay.

 

You don't need a university to offer people the opportunity to engage with a text at a level where there is only a little reading every week, and the students can't keep up, or worse, complain, when the professor asks them for more.

 

I can't imagine that approach would be considered ok in the sciences.  If it was, you would absolutely have science degrees where kids were not managing to do the reading.

[gardenmom5]

If you are talking about students who want to be professors, then I agree with you that they might need a Plan B for their degree.  Actually, I think pretty much everyone should have a Plan B.  Still, the unemployment rate for those with a PhD is just 1.6% with an average income of $1664/week so they aren't all working at Starbucks or Walmart.  That works out to 86K per year on average not including any benefits, etc.

 

As for a decline in reading overall... yes, that's definitely happening.  I think cell phones and the internet play a major part.

 

FWIW, even in Med School middle son has come across fellow students who only study for the test and who feel they only need a passing grade on the test (passing levels are set pretty low for my personal standards). Some even play games on their phones while in class.  It's been a wee bit eye-opening for both of us.  Sometimes one expects our Ideal World to be the same as The Real World.  These are top students (supposedly) who made it in.  What happened?

 

I'd have to wonder about col where they live for that to be a worth while income for a phd - considering how much they spent to get it.   I'm probably jaded because I live in a higher col area.

 

while I wanted my kids to have a rounded education (dh pushes for at least one good econ class), I also wanted them to consider whether it would pay their bills.

[Bluegoat]

If you are talking about students who want to be professors, then I agree with you that they might need a Plan B for their degree.  Actually, I think pretty much everyone should have a Plan B.  Still, the unemployment rate for those with a PhD is just 1.6% with an average income of $1664/week so they aren't all working at Starbucks or Walmart.  That works out to 86K per year on average not including any benefits, etc.

 

As for a decline in reading overall... yes, that's definitely happening.  I think cell phones and the internet play a major part.

 

FWIW, even in Med School middle son has come across fellow students who only study for the test and who feel they only need a passing grade on the test (passing levels are set pretty low for my personal standards). Some even play games on their phones while in class.  It's been a wee bit eye-opening for both of us.  Sometimes one expects our Ideal World to be the same as The Real World.  These are top students (supposedly) who made it in.  What happened?

 

I think a lot of the young academics are underemployed.

 

I think the internet has a big role in the change.  I've noticed a lot of online content by humanities profs recently, which may be related.

[bethben]

My friend who has been homeschooling for over 20 years has noticed a trend in education.  She thinks that a college degree has replaced the status that a high school degree used to years and years ago.  The master's degree has replaced the BA degree and so on.  For example, her dd went to school to become an occupational therapist.  Years and years ago, it was a simple four year degree.  Now, it's a masters degree.  In the near future, there is talk about an OT degree being a PHD.  

[creekland]

I'd have to wonder about col where they live for that to be a worth while income for a phd - considering how much they spent to get it.   I'm probably jaded because I live in a higher col area.

 

while I wanted my kids to have a rounded education (dh pushes for at least one good econ class), I also wanted them to consider whether it would pay their bills.

 

That's an average income.  I suspect in HCOL areas the average is likely higher.

 

I know my PE hubby can earn a lot more if we moved to a HCOL area.  We don't care to and I suspect it would all balance out with the extra costs anyway.  I know he earns a bit more than average for a bachelor's degree even in our lower COL area, but he's also been working for 30 years.  That chart gives average incomes by degree for everyone 25 and older.  It doesn't give starting salaries nor break them down by H/L COL.  There's still a very noticeable trend in income and unemployment rates.

 

FWIW, many times a PhD is funded, so not an added cost to the student.

[eternalsummer]

Maybe, but it's relevant, I think.

 

I was talking to the professor who was giving a book group series I went to recently, and one of the things he mentioned was that it is really difficult to get the students to read now.  Which is kind of the bread and butter of humanities students.  He's found that in the past, not only was it taken for granted that the students would read the text for class, they'd also read the supporting materials - you could suggest a book - an academic book -  one week, and the students would largely go and look for it and read it, often before the next class, and be able to bring all kinds of ideas with them to enlarge the topic.

 

Now he finds to get the students through the texts that the class is studying, he has to go through it slowly over the course of the semester with a lot of support.  Their reading skills are just not there. 

 

 I don't know if this is about having less time because of working, or not getting reading kills in high school, or a cultural shift away from print, but it seems pretty significant and I would think depressing for an academic in the humanities.  

 

 

Yes, in the state flagship public I went to 15 years ago, as an English major, no one read anything except maybe some articles or poems.  Entire novels, certainly not.  I was the only one in most classes who had read the readings (and even I didn't read everything).   I didn't take any intro-level humanities courses (or intro-level anything except a semester of Swedish), so this was true in 200 and 300 level courses.  The only classes that operated as if anyone had read the readings were the grad-level ones.  Some professors seemed to take this for granted and either taught with that in mind (doing group readings of short pieces, focusing on poems instead of short stories or novels, etc.) or gave up entirely and just lectured as they saw fit, with little class interaction.  A few were still fighting the good fight, which was generally hilarious as they constantly embarrassed everyone who wouldn't read.  You'd think that would change after one session of humiliation but no, still no reading.

[Frances]

And was it a true predictor of how they faired later in life? College education? Careers?

The oldest is only 25, so it's still a bit early. But in general, yes, both in terms of finishing/not finishing college and the difficulty of majors completed.

[Frances]

That's an average income. I suspect in HCOL areas the average is likely higher.

 

I know my PE hubby can earn a lot more if we moved to a HCOL area. We don't care to and I suspect it would all balance out with the extra costs anyway. I know he earns a bit more than average for a bachelor's degree even in our lower COL area, but he's also been working for 30 years. That chart gives average incomes by degree for everyone 25 and older. It doesn't give starting salaries nor break them down by H/L COL. There's still a very noticeable trend in income and unemployment rates.

 

FWIW, many times a PhD is funded, so not an added cost to the student.

But there is a cost in terms of very low pay for many years for the degree, post-docs, and then sometimes temporary teaching gigs while waiting for the tenure track position that may never come. I think underemployment for PhDs is an ever growing problem, except those that can successfully pivot to jobs in the tech industry. It's a very different world than when my husband pursued his PhD 25 years ago.

[creekland]

But there is a cost in terms of very low pay for many years for the degree, post-docs, and then sometimes temporary teaching gigs while waiting for the tenure track position that may never come. I think underemployment for PhDs is an ever growing problem, except those that can successfully pivot to jobs in the tech industry. It's a very different world than when my husband pursued his PhD 25 years ago.

 

I think it's a very different world overall... which is why it's good to have conversations where we share what is "out there" for possibilities - giving us better info for our "Guidance Counselor" hats.

 

I have already agreed that if one is looking for a Professor position, it would be good to have a Plan B they are also content with.  No arguments there.

 

There's a big difference between getting a college education (2 or 4 year) and specifically wanting a PhD to get a Professor position.

 

I see fewer and fewer jobs for those who aren't academically capable of "something" post high school (trades included), esp as more of our world becomes automated.  There are some jobs out there, but not as many as 25 years ago.

[DawnM]

The oldest is only 25, so it's still a bit early. But in general, yes, both in terms of finishing/not finishing college and the difficulty of majors completed.

 

Interesting.  That hasn't been my experience, but that doesn't mean much really as it isn't a true experiment and really only anecdotal. 

[DawnM]

I think it's a very different world overall... which is why it's good to have conversations where we share what is "out there" for possibilities - giving us better info for our "Guidance Counselor" hats.

 

I have already agreed that if one is looking for a Professor position, it would be good to have a Plan B they are also content with.  No arguments there.

 

There's a big difference between getting a college education (2 or 4 year) and specifically wanting a PhD to get a Professor position.

 

I see fewer and fewer jobs for those who aren't academically capable of "something" post high school (trades included), esp as more of our world becomes automated.  There are some jobs out there, but not as many as 25 years ago.

 

Call me completely and totally jaded and not encouraging anyone to go into education or higher level academia.  

 

If a student really wants to go into education, I am not completely dissuading, but I am wanting them to look at everything realistically .  It isn't what it used to be.  The demands are far greater and the rewards are far fewer.  

[J-rap]

I've become jaded on college education too, except that so many companies/businesses will not even look at an applicant without a degree of some kind, even if it is not relevant at all to the job, and even if the person applying has well-proven themselves in other ways.

 

It's very frustrating.

[amy g.]

I do not insist on a college degree for my kids. My 11 year old is talking about culinary school. I would be fine with that. I’d also be fine with it if she got a culinary certificate and never worked in that industry.

 

I think education can be valuable just for the education and not just for money or job prospects.

 

I support broad class requirements for undergraduate degrees. For my kids, this is where they try something that they wouldn’t choose to take on by choice but find a new appreciation for the subject.

 

I don’t find what my kids are doing at university “irrelevant†last night, I was helping my oldest with the first 26 pages of a rough draft on the similarities between the sublime and kitch. Not only do I think this assignment will improve her research and writing skills, I think it is actually good for her brain to be stretching and working harder in new areas. It probably won’t lead directly to a job or to money, but that is okay because money isn’t my end goal for education and it isn’t hers either.

 

She was complaining about the some of the other students in her top tier honors program. She said that they just want to jump through hoops and get As. They aren’t interested in excellence at all. This is part of the problem to me. You can pay for students to go to college, but you can’t force them to do the work. You can’t make them care. Even with a degree they probably won’t be ideal employees, but I believe they will have better options than if they didn’t get a degree at all.

 

We will support our kids’ education to the extent that they are still motivated. Dh said that he doesn’t care if they get PhDs and then do jobs requiring no education at all. He said he would be happy if Dd became one of the country’s most well educated dairy farmer.

 

We want our kids to be educated because that is our value system. We aren’t expecting some monetary payoff for our investment.

 

It is interesting. I get quite a few comments from people about how worthless they believe a college degree is. Obviously I’ll never agree with that because I don’t think any learning is worthless, but many times, the people I’m hearing this from have personal issues that don’t make them a good fit for university. I choose to take their opinion with a pound of salt.

Edited December 12, 2017 by amy g.

[creekland]

Call me completely and totally jaded and not encouraging anyone to go into education or higher level academia.  

 

If a student really wants to go into education, I am not completely dissuading, but I am wanting them to look at everything realistically .  It isn't what it used to be.  The demands are far greater and the rewards are far fewer.  

 

I have heard this about many professions TBH.  So much in life has changed from what used to be, education included.

 

Shadowing those currently in the desired field can be very helpful for students.  It can show them the Real World they are potentially heading into.

[momacacia]

I think Bryan is shooting himself in the foot and biting the hand that feeds him. 😂 Maybe he's tired of teaching. 😂

[summerreading]

.

Edited December 11, 2017 by summerreading

[Crimson Wife]

If you are talking about students who want to be professors, then I agree with you that they might need a Plan B for their degree.  Actually, I think pretty much everyone should have a Plan B.  Still, the unemployment rate for those with a PhD is just 1.6% with an average income of $1664/week so they aren't all working at Starbucks or Walmart.  That works out to 86K per year on average not including any benefits, etc.

 

Average (mean) or median? Because the mean is going to be dragged up by the PhD.'s in quant fields who are making big bucks in industry. When my DH worked in the financial services industry, most of his colleagues actually did not have MBA's like DH but rather PhD.'s in quant fields. Managing directors could easily make 7 figures in a good year.

 

Now if the median is $88k, that is a more encouraging number since that is far less affected by outliers on the high end.

 

[bibiche]

  Haven't we all met people with PhDs who are hardly able to function in society in general? Also, am I the only one who has met doctorate degree recipients who are innummerate and/or barely literate?  

 

Huh? I can say absolutely that no, I have never met someone with a PhD who is hardly able to function in society, is innumerate or barely literate. Sure, I have met people who are less than brilliant, and I also know some brilliant people who have not had the grit to finish doctoral programs. But never have I met a PhD who is not functional. (Broken from trying to cobble together a living working adjunct jobs, yes, but that's a whole other topic.)

[KungFuPanda]

This. The whole movement of educational debt being good debt needs to be reevaluated. I mean, I am not hard nosed about it...maybe a person needs to borrow a bit to finish up a degree that looks like it will offer a decent job....but be realistic.

I’m not sure about that. I know people with school debt, but even with that extra bill, they make more on average than people I know with no debt. They don’t get that feeling of pride or freedom from being debt-free, but they do get to buy nice homes in good school districts and give their kids a lifestyle that they couldn’t without an education.

Edited December 11, 2017 by KungFuPanda

[regentrude]

Huh? I can say absolutely that no, I have never met someone with a PhD who is hardly able to function in society, is innumerate or barely literate. Sure, I have met people who are less than brilliant, and I also know some brilliant people who have not had the grit to finish doctoral programs. But never have I met a PhD who is not functional. (Broken from trying to cobble together a living working adjunct jobs, yes, but that's a whole other topic.)

Me neither. I have met some who have very odd personalities, but never one who couldn't function or are illiterate. How would they write their dissertation?

[creekland]

It says median:

 

 

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

I agree it makes a difference - regardless of education level.  Outliers easily affect means.

[Liz CA]

Me neither. I have met some who have very odd personalities, but never one who couldn't function or are illiterate. How would they write their dissertation?

 

 

:lol:   Some seem to be so focused on their field of expertise that it can seem they forget how to pour a cup of coffee. But surely they cannot be illiterate. Reminds of the saying PhD stands for "piled higher and deeper."

[Selkie]

Your experience of the trades is very different from ours. Are you union? My spouse is. You have to pass a test in order to get into the apprenticeship, so at least you are literate. You have to pass a drug test to get into the union and many jobs require random drug testing, so it's harder to have a drug problem (other than alcohol) than many white collar jobs. I know at least some of the employers do background checks, because my spouse has had them when changing companies.That said, the apprentices digging trenches are making significantly more than $10/hr. 

 

I agree - we are in the construction business and although we are not union, we have many of these same requirements for employment. We could never hire good workers at $10/hr. Our beginning workers who have no experience make close to $20/hr. plus benefits (health insurance and retirement), and we are in a fairly low cost of living area.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Selkie

[nixpix5]

Everyone here who brought up that point was accused of elitism. I don't see the pendulum swinging back. The whole K12 system here has been changed due to the full inclusion philosophy; nothing is to be done in the reg. ed. classroom that isn't accessible to all. My son for 8th was assigned to listen to audio books in the nonhonors classroom at a lower level than he read independently in 2nd due to the nclb dumb down. Honors has now been eliminated for middle school. The common core replacement English class and the reading remediation classes don't come close in content. Discussion of literary elements other than plot and theme have been eliminated here unless one is in AP or honors English for high school...and ds had been in a classroom with the 'mean' teacher who was teaching symbolism in 2nd since the fluent readers were noting literary elements in Harry Potter and asking what the correct terms were. He did get a seat in AP lit in 12th grade, due to those dropping out after 11th (where they do read 6 books a year). I'd suggest you do what the parents do here...give her the Mensa list or a preIB reading list and form a book club or discuss at home. Or get involved in stage productions...

 

Better off without middle or high school is the reality for people who can't access the public honors curriculum. The system is being set up here to encourage the top students to attend CC at their own expense for 11th and 12th..they just need an 80 average at some CCs to be considered. Unfortunately they can't access the old honors 11th and 12th grade curriculum in the high school, they pay for that at the CC then go on to a four year. My district scores 2 grade levels below average for its demographics, per the Standford study which was summarized in the NYTimes last summer.

This has been problematic at our CCs here. There are so many running start students that it has changed the make up of the CC. Kids that want to work on level end up going to CC because their high school classes are doing below level work for inclusion. Then the CC professors are faced with a large chunk of their class being high school students who are not used to being told they can't do make up work, get extensions and so forth. Pressure has been put on CC teachers to be glorified high school teachers. Those trying to get college level education are suffering because of it. I am not sure how they are going to continue to work with this but what it seems like is that our local CC is an honors high school at this point. So while they want to be all inclusive, all that seems to be happening here is segregation on students' own terms.

[gardenmom5]

Average (mean) or median? Because the mean is going to be dragged up by the PhD.'s in quant fields who are making big bucks in industry. When my DH worked in the financial services industry, most of his colleagues actually did not have MBA's like DH but rather PhD.'s in quant fields. Managing directors could easily make 7 figures in a good year.

 

Now if the median is $88k, that is a more encouraging number since that is far less affected by outliers on the high end.

 

 

we have a friend who is a phd and the director level.  he probably approaches seven figures every year - but he also has a number of patents in his own name.

 

dd has a doc -and she got it after all the new student loan rules came out.  she still had less debt than her yearly employed-in-her-field income at graduation.  granted it got paid off faster because she married a man with lots of savings - but he proceeded to get an MBA - and with both of their incomes, they paid as they went so they have zero student loans six months after he graduated.  (their only debt - is their mortgage.  they had their financials pinned to their office wall so they could easily refer to it - and I saw it when I was visiting.)

[luuknam]

That was interesting to read (the rate my professor.). The earlier posts from before 2008/9ish were mostly Goods. After that, they went down to Average or Bad. I wonder what happened in 2008?

 

 

The Great Recession? Which caused a bunch of older people to return to college (or go for the first time) because if they were unemployed anyway, they might as well finish a degree or get a second degree for a more employable field or w/e. It could even have made normal college-age students be more cynical towards certain statements about the economy or public policy or w/e.

 

(or, of course any of the other possible reasons that have been mentioned in this thread)

Edited December 11, 2017 by luuknam

[wintermom]

I think that there may be a couple different issues this author is mixing together. Firstly, is there value in obtaining a college/university degree. Secondly, should society pay for everyone to get a college degree.  

 

Personally, I believe that there is a value in obtaining a university degree. I also believe that society should support everyone who is capable and willing to study and work to achieve a post-secondary education - whether that be 4-year bachelor's degree or a 2-year certificate.  I believe that it is an investment in society as a whole. I don't believe that family finances should be a deciding factor that someone should not have the opportunity to achieve higher-level education and job training. 

 

[MarkT]

I think Bryan is shooting himself in the foot and biting the hand that feeds him. 😂 Maybe he's tired of teaching. 😂

I give him credit for willingness to point out what he believes are issues in his environment.

Of course to be published these days, one has to take a fairly extreme position to end up in the popular press.

 

Being a fortune 500 wage-slave myself - we tend to see a first job as a college instructor on a resume as "no practical experience".

from the article:

'The next step was what you could call my first “real” job—as an economics professor at George Mason University.'

 

This is not meant to offend all the wonderful folks in the forum that are teachers, professors, college-instructors. It's just a reality we discuss in our interview review teams and we expect some additional time for those folks to transition. We do hire these folks.

[SamanthaCarter]

Obviously there is a culture wide problem, and it’s complex. I can’t honestly say I’d steer my kids away from a college degree, but I do agree there is something unsavory about the debt/ college degree/employment signaling racket. But if I’m not willing to do it, I’m not going to tell other people to avoid college.

 

I wonder if we made college debt into something bankruptcy would wipe out, the lenders would be a whole lot more picky about the quality of their loans. They might just not approve loans for underwater basket weaving or what have you. I understand that assessing credit risks has its own injustices, but this might be a way forward.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if we made college debt into something bankruptcy would wipe out, the lenders would be a whole lot more picky about the quality of their loans. They might just not approve loans for underwater basket weaving or what have you. I understand that assessing credit risks has its own injustices, but this might be a way forward.

 

Here in Oz, you don't start paying back student loans until your income is above a certain threshold, well above minimum wage.

[gardenmom5]

Obviously there is a culture wide problem, and it’s complex. I can’t honestly say I’d steer my kids away from a college degree, but I do agree there is something unsavory about the debt/ college degree/employment signaling racket. But if I’m not willing to do it, I’m not going to tell other people to avoid college.

 

I wonder if we made college debt into something bankruptcy would wipe out, the lenders would be a whole lot more picky about the quality of their loans. They might just not approve loans for underwater basket weaving or what have you. I understand that assessing credit risks has its own injustices, but this might be a way forward.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

yeah.

and if they had to take into account earning potential of a degree.

 

ds's first choice of college would have required a lot of loans - that had to start being paid WHILE he would have stlll been a student!  so he said no.  fortunately, he got into our one state uni that offers the degree.  (supposedly one of the better programs in the country - so far, he's got a prof he - and much of the class - have serious issues with and he's not being impressed with the program.)

[Guest]

Your experience of the trades is very different from ours. Are you union? My spouse is. You have to pass a test in order to get into the apprenticeship, so at least you are literate. You have to pass a drug test to get into the union and many jobs require random drug testing, so it's harder to have a drug problem (other than alcohol) than many white collar jobs. I know at least some of the employers do background checks, because my spouse has had them when changing companies.That said, the apprentices digging trenches are making significantly more than $10/hr.

 

My spouse does not make six figures. He's probably at the top of where he can go without college. It did destroy his back. However, we are a single income family (and always have been) and home owners. He now works an office job related to plumbing. I really love the apprenticeship model. I really love that his company takes estimators and project managers from the field rather than people who have never worked construction. I would love to see this model implemented in more occupations. In the mean time, though? I would recommend my kids look hard at the trades.

No, not union. Independant contractor.

 

We have had some employees who, in terms of knowledge about plumbing, could have had their journeyman’s. However, they would not or could not complete the application for apprenticeship designation, without which you can never apply for a journeyman’s license. In one case, the employee was as knowledgeable as my husband, a Master. We could send him to any job and he knew how to address the plumbing work. But he would not/could not apply for licensing. Later, he went to jail. I do not think he could read or write like a functional adult.

 

What do you mean by “look hard at the trades� Does that mean look hard because they can surely find a trade they would like to do, or does that mean look critically at the trades because it takes it’s toll physically?

[Rosie_0801]

What do you mean by “look hard at the trades”? Does that mean look hard because they can surely find a trade they would like to do, or does that mean look critically at the trades because it takes it’s toll physically?

 

What kind of pathways are there out of a trade? I've known some whose business made enough that they could hire younger people for the tougher work. I've known some who retrain as teachers. What else do people do?

[Guest]

I do not insist on a college degree for my kids. My 11 year old is talking about culinary school. I would be fine with that. I’d also be fine with it if she got a culinary certificate and never worked in that industry.

 

I think education can be valuable just for the education and not just for money or job prospects.

 

I support broad class requirements for undergraduate degrees. For my kids, this is where they try something that they wouldn’t choose to take on by choice but find a new appreciation for the subject.

 

I don’t find what my kids are doing at university “irreverent†last night, I was helping my oldest with the first 26 pages of a rough draft on the similarities between the sublime and kitch. Not only do I think this assignment will improve her research and writing skills, I think it is actually good for her brain to be stretching and working harder in new areas. It probably won’t lead directly to a job or to money, but that is okay because money isn’t my end goal for education and isn’t hers either.

 

She was complaining about the some of the other students in her top tier honors program. She said that they just want to jump through hoops and get As. They aren’t interested in excellence at all. This is part of the problem to me. You can pay for students to go to college, but you can’t force them to do the work. You can’t make them care. Even with a degree they probably won’t be ideal employees, but I believe they will have better options than if they didn’t get a degree at all.

 

We will support our kids’ education to the extent that they are still motivated. Dh said that he doesn’t care if they get PhDs and then do jobs requiring no education at all. He said he would be happy if Dd became one of the country’s most well educated dairy farmers.

 

We want our kids to be educated because that is our value system. We aren’t expecting some monetary payoff for our investment.

 

It is interesting. I get quite a few comments from people about how worthless they believe a college degree is. Obviously I’ll never agree with that because I don’t think any learning is worthless, but many times, the people I’m hearing this from have personal issues that don’t make them a good fit for university. I choose to take their opinion with a pound of salt.

If I could, I would like this twice. Especially your 4th and 5th paragraphs.

[Guest]

What kind of pathways are there out of a trade? I've known some whose business made enough that they could hire younger people for the tougher work. I've known some who retrain as teachers. What else do people do?

I don’t think there are many pathways out of a trade, at least for anyone who would not go to college at any point.

 

For my DH, as the “boss†and the Master plumber, yes, he is now mostly the overseer and does not now do a ton of the seriously hard physical work. (Although he sometimes does. Last week, he and his plumber employee were pulling up a well pump by hand that weighed hundreds of poinds and was over 300’ deep.) He also has gotten involved in rental properties, which is usually less physically taxing.

 

My BIL was also a Master Plumber, but he transitioned to exclusively home building and land development. Another BIL was also a Master Plumber and he transitioned to mostly excavation/machine work with his son. (Can you take a wild guess at what my FIL was? Lol!)

 

For tradesmen who are willing and able to go to college, yes, they might become teachers or work in the office of a trade or work for the government, such as in inspections. A lot of inspectors were once persnickety contractors; that’s why they are so good at finding discrepencies.

[Guest]

There are differences, but I also do think it's a pretty overall trend. This professor teaching at exactly the kind of institution that is most likely to attract students who will do the reading, it's what they go there for, and they still aren't reading at the same level - asking kids to read an entire academic book in a week, not an official part of the course, on top of the actual class reading, seems to be unheard of. The students complain. They still produce some great scholars that go on to be at the top of their area of study, and are absolutely well-read, because that is the academic culture. But the majority of the students - not so much, and they think the requirements for that are unreasonable.

 

Actually, I read a comment recently by a professor at a prominent university, in a worldwide sense, saying that he finds even the faculty under about 40 don't read much. :confused1:

I have been thinking a lot in the past year or so about reading and writing and the culture as a whole. I wonder often about the intersection of inate desire in the written word and the prominence of non-reading, non-writing channels of communication.

 

I have had a word and writing rich environment since before my kids were born. But my kids are each different in their interest in and skill with written communication. One is allergic to books. One couldn’t go a day without a book. And another is between the two, enjoying stories, but pretty much dreading actual reading.

 

It seems to me that the culture as a whole is moving away from writing and reading. Sadly.

[EMS83]

I liked the article, actually.  I saw it as some intentional boat rocking to get people thinking.  But see, I was the LAC student who went because that's what you're "supposed" to do, who has never applied for a "real" job, who never intends to, who wasted a LOT of time in very unacademic pursuits, and I wasn't alone in that (though I may have been one of the more extreme examples).  I feel like anything other than 4-year college was stigmatized, when that's really unfair.  So with anything, I'm in favor of the right tools being used for the right job, whether that's tech school, vocational school, humanities degrees, seminary, apprenticing, or homemaking.  Saying "go to school, go to college, and life will magically unfold" is just...wrong.  We should be encouraging people from a young age to be considering what they'd like to do--how they'd like to work during their adult years.  Then go and equip yourself for that.  Have a plan B.  If one truly just doesn't know and needs to do something, maybe try online courses and a part time job.  Just my opinion though.

 

ETA: it should also be known that my greatest hopes for my kids have almost nothing to do with jobs, so there's that.

Edited December 12, 2017 by CES2005

[KungFuPanda]

I find it very interesting that most of the people I hear singing the praises of trades over degrees are not people who would put themselves or their children in the position to be doing manual labor into their 60s. In fact, they’re some of the same people that say “Of course we should raise the retirement age. People are living longer.†It seems like an interesting argument made by a lot of people who don’t really grasp the risk involved in tying your physical strength to your livelihood.