Physics decisions, text and methods

[Kendall]

I'm avoiding planning what I should be teaching this week by asking about next year:). 

 

The general question I'd like opinions on is how to make physics manageable for a student who struggles.  I actually will be teaching this to two of my daughters. The options I see are 

 

Use a text I have Giancoli or Knight-Most likely Knight which I used last time using regentrudes helps and help!  

 

1) Cover the same number of topics/chapters and just do easy problems

2) Cover fewer topics/chapters and dig into the problems and get them to really understand it. Understanding takes a LONG time. Maybe cover the missing topics with videos/reading for exposure.

 

 

3) Or use Conceptual Physics for the one 

 

Cons to #3 are using two texts for the same subject and two teaching times. I also think that the one who struggles the most needs the struggle. I'm not sure going the easy route is going to build her mental skills as much as using the algebra based physics might do. Her basic algebra skills are getting pretty solid. Both girls will be doing precalc/trig the same year as physics.

 

Whichever route I go, I hope to have them view as many Great Courses Physics in Your Life lectures as I can during the summer before and/or to cover topics we won't get to.

 

Thanks in advance,

Kendall

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Why does the student struggle? Is there a math LD involved? You say they will be both in precalculus, but also that one's basic algebra skills are getting solid. I don't understand this. Basic algebra skills should be done two years before precalc is started. Maybe I misunderstand.

 

What are the student's goals? May the student need physics in college? Will the student most definitely never have to take a math based physics course at college? That would affect my choice.

 

It would help if you could explain a bit more where the struggles come in. The students I encounter who struggle with physics all have deficiencies in prealgebra and algebra and cannot focus on the physics concepts because they are so bogged down by insufficient math mastery. 

if the two students are at very different levels in math mastery, I would not have them take physics in the same year, but delay the weaker student's physics. If you don't think the weaker student will ever reach sufficient math proficiency (which, however, would make me wonder why she is taking precalc), choosing Conceptual would be a good choice and not really more work than developing two separate problem sets from the same text. The student would mostly read the text independently anyway.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by regentrude

[Kendall]

The one who struggles more will be a senior, the other a junior.  The older one will not be doing anything in college that will require physics, nor Calculus. 

 

I do not think there is a math LD. I wish I knew the cause of the struggles. Maybe some memory issues? 

 

I guess by basic algebra skills I mean that when she encounters math equations involving solving for x she knows what to do without being reminded.  When she sees a quadratic equation she has an idea of what to do, but it takes some time to remember that most quadratics are solved by moving all terms to one side. Sometimes she needs to be reminded of that, but if we have done one recently she remembers on her own. She can factor quadratics and solve from there and also knows to use the quadratic formula if applicable. She will see a problem asking for the vertex of a parabola and complete the square to put it in the form of y-k=a(x-h)² instead of remembering that -b/2a will give the x coordinate and is a faster way (usually). In spite of repeated and varied explanations of why this is -b/2a she doesn't remember to use it. But if the parabola has an a that is not 1 she may or may not remember how to handle that when completing the square.  She can have trouble with a math problem or chemistry problem if the wording of the question is different. Early on in algebra simplify vs. evaluate would throw her. It has taken an extra semester of review to get the prealgebra and algebra skills to where they seem to be solidly in there.  

 

In chemistry she doesn't understand the processes and/or concepts easily. Even if we get to the point where she seems to really have it, it can be shaky or gone the next day. But if I look at weeks instead of days she slowly gets it. My younger one can feel like we have done the same thing over and over by the end of the first day. (I've found a decent solution for this). 

 

Yes, you are right, the Conceptual Physics would require no planning/teaching and only some time going over questions and answering her questions. But I think the working hard in Chemistry this year to get things,things that at first it looks like she was not capable of getting, is good for her brain. She is interested in how the world works. 

 

The younger one is not likely to take calc based physics in college either. I think that even if she does, solid math skills and some work in algebra based physics would be enough preparation. What do you think? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Given what you explain about your DD's math struggles, I would not make her take an algebra based physics course. She will learn very little physics because she will get SO bogged down in the algebra that she does not have her head free to think through the concept, and she will have to move very slowly, which makes it boring when you never progress past the basics of mechanics. I think she would benefit much more from a Conceptual Physics with less math. There are still complex concepts to think about, but she would develop a better perspective for the physics rather than seeing it as an endless math exercise. Math based physics is good when the student can execute the calculations without thinking and the difficulty is in setting up the problem, not manipulating the equations. 

 

For the other student, a solid algebra based physics sounds like a good choice. And if she has to take calc based physics at college, that will be an excellent preparation.

 

ETA: Since you mention your other student feels like she has done the same thing over and over after short exposure to the concept, I would not attempt to teach them synchronously, but create two completely distinct courses to allow her to progress at an appropriate speed. She'll have more fun.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by regentrude

[MarkT]

Given what you explain about your DD's math struggles, I would not make her take an algebra based physics course. She will learn very little physics because she will get SO bogged down in the algebra that she does not have her head free to think through the concept, and she will have to move very slowly, which makes it boring when you never progress past the basics of mechanics. I think she would benefit much more from a Conceptual Physics with less math. There are still complex concepts to think about, but she would develop a better perspective for the physics rather than seeing it as an endless math exercise. Math based physics is good when the student can execute the calculations without thinking and the difficulty is in setting up the problem, not manipulating the equations. 

 

For the other student, a solid algebra based physics sounds like a good choice. And if she has to take calc based physics at college, that will be an excellent preparation.

 

 

Excellent advice - I am just "piling on"

 

One size does not fit all

a big advantage of home schooling

 

You could use Hewitt for both the Algebra-based (do something similar to Clover Creek Physics) and the pure conceptual

For Algebra-based make sure the edition you purchase has the Appendix F "Problem Solving Practice" and use some of the * problems

 

[regentrude]

You could use Hewitt for both the Algebra-based (do something similar to Clover Creek Physics) and the pure conceptual

For Algebra-based make sure the edition you purchase has the Appendix F "Problem Solving Practice" and use some of the * problems

 

But Hewitt does not use any trigonometry. An actual algebra based physics course needs trig because otherwise you cannot deal with two dimensional motion, inclines, and more complex geometries.

So adding a few more problems when the text does not use trig won't work. You might as well just do conceptual.

Edited December 11, 2017 by regentrude

[MarkT]

But Hewitt does not use any trigonometry. An actual algebra based physics course needs trig because otherwise you cannot deal with two dimensional motion, inclines, and more complex geometries.

So adding a few more problems when the text does not use trig won't work. You might as well just do conceptual.

I just looked, Appendix F does have problems with Trig.

 

Yes I believe some supplementary material would have to be used along with Hewitt text but there is a lot of stuff out there on the web,

For example this could be used:

https://openstax.org/details/college-physics

 

regentrude previously noted that the OpenStax University Physics text has some issues

https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-1

 

but the College Physics was created by a different set of authors

[Kendall]

The input has been so helpful. I initially was seeing Conceptual Physics as the last option, but I am warming to using it for the older one. I'll have to find a way to sell it to her, but I think I can. 

 

She will be taking 12 hours at a CC her Spring semester of senior year and continuing physics at home that second semester might prove to be too much. If it was Conceptual Physics she could continue that reading and watch videos second semester, or we can just stop. That semester will be kind of an extra semester for her because she missed a half a year due to health issues/treatments but we added a full year to her schooling. So we will be okay transcript wise.

 

I think I will use the Knight(I think that is the author) book with the younger one. She really likes Chemistry, really liked Biology, and may have already read some of the CP book her 8th grade year(I know she didn't do all of it). So a stronger Physics is a good plan for her.

 

Thank you both so much.

 

 

 

[Kendall]

 

 

ETA: Since you mention your other student feels like she has done the same thing over and over after short exposure to the concept, I would not attempt to teach them synchronously, but create two completely distinct courses to allow her to progress at an appropriate speed. She'll have more fun.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. In early November I posted about this issue and got one suggestion which I am using-to have the younger one read living chemistry books. So I have done that when I see I am heading into a long (re) explanation with the one girl that the other doesn't need. So the younger one is reading Uncle Tungsten now and really enjoying it. I also have looked for more interesting/challenging problems and given her fewer of the easier ones and more of the other and she is liking that as well. So thankfully we are finally getting a pretty good rhythm going in chemistry.