Would you opt for a full on IB program or just do APs?

[DawnM]

Our local high school has a full, very well respected IB program.  Our youngest definitely qualifies.  It doesn't start until 11th grade and he would need to apply in the Spring of his 10th grade year.  He is only 8th this year.  

 

We just didn't consider it for the other kids as they had no desire to push themselves that much academically (opted for dual enrollment and honors, but no AP or IB.)

 

I have read about the differences, and I know that it really depends on the IB program.  This one is rigorous.  It is a very quality program.  But I also know it takes 110% of your time, so doing extra stuff would be next to impossible.  (sports, drama, etc...)

 

Anyway, curious on your thoughts.

 

BTW:  He is also asking and I am sure we will get more info as the time comes.  But he wants to push himself.

[Laura Corin]

What scores does it produce?

 

The IB shouldn't stop you doing extracurriculars, as they are required within the programme. Creativity, Action, Service (arts, exercise and volunteering) are graded parts of it. Hobbes works in a charity shop, runs with a club and sings in a choir.

 

So check whether the school allows free choice in how these requirements are fulfilled.

 

More generally, the IB programme is demanding of the student's time.

[eternalsummer]

Everyone in our IB program who took the diploma did theater or sports or drama or band or something.  

 

It is a good program academically.  There are/were a fair number of extra requirements on top of the classes themselves - you have to take an elective (psychology in our case) and a half-credit philosophy course and write a long paper and do a community service project, an extended one, etc.  

 

I mean, it took a lot of time, sure.  On the other hand, I started university with a year's worth of credit for free, so that was good.  I learned how to think critically and write timed analytical essays - the higher level history and english classes were especially good.  I did the full load, band, orchestra, and had a pretty much full-time boyfriend (to whom I am now married :) ) and I didn't die of the stress.  I didn't sleep a lot, though.

[DawnM]

I know some extracurriculars are part of the program, but most have said with our IB program, it simply isn't possible to do anything that isn't required.  I have been told that over and over.  I don't really know why as I don't feel I know enough about it to comment, the feedback I get is, "It will consume your child, so whatever is required for the IB is what he will do, but forget social activities, added activities, etc...."   

[DawnM]

When our district had IB, it was open to all students and not considered a push.  Key to success is to have the pre-req writing skills, study skills, and the work ethic. Being well read is also a plus according to the parents ahead of me -- they weren't happy with middle school English as the lit was a dumb down from our day.  A list similar to the MENSA grade level lists is what he should be using, as well as reading essays from the NYT or similar.

 

 

Right, and he can do all of those.  His bent is definitely in the reading and writing areas.  He isn't as strong in science, although he is getting A's currently.  He just doesn't really like it.

 

Literature and writing areas are very strong for him.

[DawnM]

I guess I really wanted to know your thoughts on IB vs. just taking AP classes as desired.  

 

 

[Sandwalker]

If your child is organized and motivated, I think IB is better. His classmates will be smart and hardworking, and he won't get into trouble from boredom.

[Lilaclady]

I think the thing with IB is that you must be committed for the long haul. It is hard if you have to move and change schools in between. With AP it is not as bad.

[Laura Corin]

 

IB Math is okay...my mathy kid thought is was too low and slow, from the plan presented to him.  My nonmathy kid would have been happy.

 

 

There are three levels of maths in the IB, but I suspect not all schools offer them all: (from low to high) Maths Studies, Standard Level Maths, Higher Level Maths.

[Sandwalker]

Upper middle class public schools near tech employers here in NY routinely offer math thru DiffEq, so an accelerated dc really doesn't get much out of IB math at any level. Their standard sequence is 11th grade Calc 1,2; 12th Calc 3 & DiffEq. The few accelerated further (maybe they went to a high school with 7th gr alg) usually use 12th as independent study for a capstone project or they further their programming skills...or something else. But no one is going to sign up to repeat just for an IB.

It's kind of sad if only the schools with rich kids offer these upper math programs.

[Laura Corin]

Upper middle class public schools near tech employers here in NY routinely offer math thru DiffEq, so an accelerated dc really doesn't get much out of IB math at any level. Their standard sequence is 11th grade Calc 1,2; 12th Calc 3 & DiffEq. The few accelerated further (maybe they went to a high school with 7th gr alg) usually use 12th as independent study for a capstone project or they further their programming skills...or something else. But no one is going to sign up to repeat just for an IB.

That makes sense. I wouldn't like people to misunderstand that the IB maths programmes are inadequate for standard university entrance (as opposed to fulfilling the needs of highly accelerated students).

 

ETA the IB English was not enough for my eldest son, but honestly nothing school-based would have been.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Laura Corin

[maize]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent and vote for AP's à la carte. My experience in a strong and rigorous IB program was that there was little flexibility and little time for outside interests.

 

My school produced excellent scores, but I wouldn't stear my own children that way.

Edited December 11, 2017 by maize

[Amira]

I have to agree with maize. IB can be very demanding. It’s also worth looking at whether the colleges your child is interested in care about the IB program at all. Some don’t, so AP classes can be a definite advantage.

 

Probably what I would do is compare the IB and AP programs at your high school to see which has the best teachers and offers the most choices and has support from the administration. So much of public school really comes down to individual teachers and admin support. When we were faced with this decision with our two oldest children at a school with a somewhat limited IB program, both chose to not do the full IB and it has not affected them negatively at all.

[eternalsummer]

I am fairly certain that a student (and maaaybe a school) may not take more than 3 IB subjects as HL, and must take the remaining ones at SL.  colleges often give less credit for SL scores, regardless of the score (and sometimes no credit).  Students at our school sat the AP exams for SL courses (and I'm sure you could do the same thing for HL courses, though it might be hard for history and english depending on the scope of the classes).  I took AP Calc AB with no extra prep and it was just fine, but I'm sure you'd have to do some extra prep if you were going to take AP World Lit or something.  So it's worth looking into which courses are offered as HL vs SL in your school's program.

 

Foreign language doesn't matter as much because most schools are just going to give an entrance test anyway and give retroactive credit (if they're credit-giving schools) for the courses you test out of.

[Laura Corin]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent and vote for AP's à la carte. My experience in a strong and rigorous IB program was that there was little flexibility and little time for outside interests.

 

My school produced excellent scores, but I wouldn't steer my own children that way.

 

I wasn't actually recommending the IB - just clarifying its scope.  I don't know anything about APs.

[Jen500]

I agree that it really depends on the individual program. Is he going to attend the IB school in 9th grade? He would probably have a much better idea what it's like compared to taking AP courses after being at the school for a while.

 

My boys are in their senior year in an IB program. They have had, for the most part, a lot of extra time for outside interests. Their school does have 2 years of pre-IB before the last 2 years though, and many of their courses are designed to be IB/AP courses, so they end up having 8 or 9 AP classes when they graduate. Does the school have any official pre-IB? Or some typical course of sequence to qualify for IB?

 

The pros for them have been that this program is selective, the school encourages cooperation, so my boys have made some wonderful friends that also want to do well academically. The CAS project is a good opportunity to design and carry out a project that they're interested in (which of course any student can do, not just IB) so a good addition to college apps.

And at our school, the IB teachers are thought to be the best teachers.

 

There have been a few cons, mostly related to this specific program so not really relevant to you. I'd also say that our school is good about accommodating math accelerated kids, but the IB math courses have been kind of underwhelming and our school doesn't offer Math HL.

[katilac]

I know some extracurriculars are part of the program, but most have said with our IB program, it simply isn't possible to do anything that isn't required.  I have been told that over and over.  

 

Even if it's impossible to do anything that isn't required, keep in mind that non-academic extras ARE required. You'd need to check with the particular school to see how much choice is available/encouraged. 

 

I guess I really wanted to know your thoughts on IB vs. just taking AP classes as desired.  

 

Is he interested in the global perspective of IB? Does he want to study a foreign language in depth? Is he willing to work long-term on a 4,000 word essay? Complete at least one project? 

 

AP courses are a la carte, which gives more freedom to change your plans as you go along. Depending on what APs are offered at the particular school, you may or may not be be have a strong AP emphasis in certain subject areas. IB is automatically an integrated program that emphasizes intercultural understanding. IB teaches a specific worldview: cultures are different, not superior or inferior;  cultures and/or people can hold differing viewpoints and both be 'right,' and so on. 

 

To succeed AND enjoy an IB program, you should be intrigued and excited by the global perspective. He has two years before he can even apply, so I wouldn't try to make an actual decision now. Explore the possibilities, let them simmer, let ds grow into the very different student he may be in two years. 

[daijobu]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent and vote for AP's à la carte. My experience in a strong and rigorous IB program was that there was little flexibility and little time for outside interests.

 

 

 

I agree.  Doing APs allows your student to be more pointy and therefore more interesting and impressive to adcoms.  I'm not all that familiar with IB, but my impression is that it's for grinds who embrace lots and lots of hard work, to the exclusion of doing anything interesting, something that really allows your student to shine.  I'm thinking about homeschooling with APs here.  Are you deciding between full time B&M IB school versus homeschooling and taking online AP classes?  

 

You might investigate to what colleges this IB school sends its students and see if that is in line with your own student's goals.  

[Dmmetler]

Check and see how guidance reports a la carte vs doing IB. We looked at one high school that had both IB and a really strong IT/Engineering magnet, and DD wanted to combine some courses from both, because the IB had only the standard level of math and only one higher level science, and she wanted more (and would have been above the math classes offered to IB, but the IT/eng kids had some neat options DE with the local college). Meanwhile, the IB kids got much better humanities courses, and she wanted both, and felt she might be able to piece together enough from both to keep busy.

 

The counselor told us that if DD did a piecemeal, she would not be able to say DD took the most challenging program, available to her-that was reserved for the kids who took the top programs in each-even if the sum total of what she took were higher classes.

[MarkT]

The counselor told us that if DD did a piecemeal, she would not be able to say DD took the most challenging program, available to her-that was reserved for the kids who took the top programs in each-even if the sum total of what she took were higher classes.

Hmm I can understand not being able to say "IB"  but your DD would be doing "most challenging program" IMHO.

 

Just explain it on the college application.

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

The counselor told us that if DD did a piecemeal, she would not be able to say DD took the most challenging program, available to her-that was reserved for the kids who took the top programs in each-even if the sum total of what she took were higher classes.

 

But she would be able to say that she lived life during those years on her own terms, with her own goals and strengths in mind. Slacking she was not. I'm pretty sure that will be obvious to anyone who actually reads her entire application. (If not, that school probably isn't a good fit anyway...)

 

(To be clear... I'm not saying anyone who does IB isn't living life on their own terms and keeping in mind their own goals and strengths. I'm just saying that in this particular instance IB wasn't the right choice.)

 

We looked into the IB route, but liked the flexibility APs offered. It was tempting, though! There are pros and cons to both paths. It can be a tough decision!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[GoodGrief]

I'd be loathe to give up my flexibility, but it really would depend on the desires of the student and the specifics of the program.

[Angie in VA]

I have 2 friends who teach foreign language (not the one subject you're discussing, I realize, but bear with me) at two different high schools in the same county. 

 

One has 4th level in w/ her AP student(s). The school just thinks, "Close enough!" The teacher says, "No, not at all." She actually said the words, "Of course they won't be prepared for the AP exams." I feel bad for the kids and that teacher. 

 

The other one? She has done her homework enough to do what she can cover the requirements for IB in the time she has. I am not familiar w/ IB. Is there an exit exam that shows proof of learning? I know it's a challenge for her to get to it all for those IB classes.

 

All this rambling is to say, which I bet you already know, it varies widely by school district. Some kids (or their parents?) just want the AP classes on the transcript. Others take the AP exams. If you can talk to the teachers to see if they truly have enough TIME to teach what they should, that would be great knowledge to have. 

 

Tangent:

Back in the day, my dd was in a music co-op type program for AP music theory, but the syllabus had not been approved by AP. I brought this up to the instructor (who was in charge of the co-op) and a co-leader whose son was in the class. The co-leader said, "I'm going to put AP MT on his transcript." They thought that just b/c the class used the official APMT guide, it was OK. Me? I put "Advanced Music Theory w/ AP Exam" on my transcript b/c that's how I roll. The leader eventually got it approved.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Angie in VA

[Laura Corin]

 

 

I am not familiar w/ IB. Is there an exit exam that shows proof of learning? I know it's a challenge for her to get to it all for those IB classes.

 

 

The IB has internationally-normed exams and coursework requirements.

[Mabelen]

I have 2 friends who teach foreign language (not the one subject you're discussing, I realize, but bear with me) at two different high schools in the same county.

 

One has 4th level in w/ her AP student(s). The school just thinks, "Close enough!" The teacher says, "No, not at all." She actually said the words, "Of course they won't be prepared for the AP exams." I feel bad for the kids and that teacher.

 

The other one? She has done her homework enough to do what she can cover the requirements for IB in the time she has. I am not familiar w/ IB. Is there an exit exam that shows proof of learning? I know it's a challenge for her to get to it all for those IB

Do you mean that the AP foreign language class is the 4th level at that school? If so, yes, I agree that an AP class being the 4th level in foreign language would not be enough for most students to do well in the exam. Our schools here have 4 years of foreign language, then one year of AP level class. That seems to work well enough.

 

As far as IB foreign language, does your friend teach a Standard Level or a Higher Level class? An AP foreign language class is more rigorous than a Standard Level IB class and on par or slightly lower than a Higher Level IB class.

[Angie in VA]

Do you mean that the AP foreign language class is the 4th level at that school? If so, yes, I agree that an AP class being the 4th level in foreign language would not be enough for most students to do well in the exam. Our schools here have 4 years of foreign language, then one year of AP level class. That seems to work well enough.

 

As far as IB foreign language, does your friend teach a Standard Level or a Higher Level class? An AP foreign language class is more rigorous than a Standard Level IB class and on par or slightly lower than a Higher Level IB class.

 

WRT the 4th year class:

No, the 4th year is not automatically AP at this school (or county). She teaches French IV (for example) and preps for that w/ the book the county bought for it AND has AP French students in the same class.

 

I understand a school system's not being able to justify a course if enrollment is small, but she has two preps for  and is expected to simultaneously teach two different books/syllabi/classes during the same time slot. Maybe this is standard now? I've been out of teaching in the public school system for decades now. She believes, and I agree, that neither level is served fairly w/ this arrangement.I don't know the pass rate for the AP for her kids or how many even take the AP exam.

 

WRT the IB, sorry. I have no idea!

[Angie in VA]

The IB has internationally-normed exams and coursework requirements.

 

 

Well, there ya go. Hence the "I" in "IB"! Thanks, Laura!

[maize]

 

As far as IB foreign language, does your friend teach a Standard Level or a Higher Level class? An AP foreign language class is more rigorous than a Standard Level IB class and on par or slightly lower than a Higher Level IB class.

My experience with the exams was that the IB standard level exam was significantly more difficult than AP for the same language.

 

I took both French exams, got an easy 5 on the AP (and experienced the exam as easy) and a 6 (out of 7) on the IB.

 

I took 6 AP's and 6 IB exams (not all duplicates) and found the AP's easier on average.

 

I seem to remember more multiple choice on AP's. The oral component of the IB exam was an in person interview with an examiner.

Edited December 28, 2017 by maize

[OneStepAtATime]

I do not have direct experience but at least locally AP offered more flexibility. 

 

The main IB High School here has a really bad rep for piling on so much work that students, really good students with straight As and very dedicated, are doing work after school until 11pm or later and have zero time for extracurriculars.  In fact, the school states, when a student applies, that they may not have time for any extracurriculars and shouldn't even schedule any until they have gone through at least Freshman year to make sure they can handle more.  A mother whose daughter was a friend of DD's burst into tears when her daughter told her she wanted to go to that school because she was afraid that there would be no more time for quality family interaction, no more time for her daughter to pursue her ares of passion, no more time for anything but the academics required of the school.  It was a poor fit and they pulled her out.  At that same school is the older sister of another DD's friends.  She is thriving and loves it.  Her mother is a High School teacher and says that it is frustrating because her daughter has a ton of work and sometimes is up until midnight trying to get it all done but her daughter loves the work and meshes really well with her classmates.

 

So I agree with others, this depends on the actual local implementation of the program but it seems AP would offer more flexibility and possibly more free time to pursue other areas of interest.

[Mabelen]

My experience with the exams was that the IB standard level exam was significantly more difficult than AP for the same language.

 

I took both French exams, got an easy 5 on the AP (and experienced the exam as easy) and a 6 (out of 7) on the IB.

 

I took 6 AP's and 6 IB exams (not all duplicates) and found the AP's easier on average.

 

I seem to remember more multiple choice on AP's. The oral component of the IB exam was an in person interview with an examiner.

I have no personal experience with the IB. My opinion is from what I have read online. For example, the following is a guide to summer work for both AP and IB Standard Level French students. It looks like the teacher demands more practice time from the AP candidates than the IB SL candidates. http://www.canyonhighschool.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Assignment%20for%20APIB%20French%20summer%202015-2016%20for%20web.pdf

 

Here we can see how University of Pennsylvania gives credit to the different French AP and IB SL and HL scores: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/french/students-french-sat-ii-ap-or-ib-exam-scores

This is consistent with my previous interpretation of IB HL > AP > IB SL

 

ETA There is a difference between IB HL A and IB HL B. IB HL A is pretty much native level, whereas IB HL B is not, apparently. So UPenn gives the same credit for a score of 5 in AP and a score of 6 or 7 in IB HL B, but gives higher credit for a score of 6 or 7 in IB HL A.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Mabelen

[eternalsummer]

I have no personal experience with the IB. My opinion is from what I have read online. For example, the following is a guide to summer work for both AP and IB Standard Level French students. It looks like the teacher demands more practice time from the AP candidates than the IB SL candidates. http://www.canyonhighschool.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Assignment%20for%20APIB%20French%20summer%202015-2016%20for%20web.pdf

 

Here we can see how University of Pennsylvania gives credit to the different French AP and IB SL and HL scores: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/french/students-french-sat-ii-ap-or-ib-exam-scores

This is consistent with my previous interpretation of IB HL > AP > IB SL

 

ETA There is a difference between IB HL A and IB HL B. IB HL A is pretty much native level, whereas IB HL B is not, apparently. So UPenn gives the same credit for a score of 5 in AP and a score of 6 or 7 in IB HL B, but gives higher credit for a score of 6 or 7 in IB HL A.

 

 

Yes, many universities won't give as much credit for IB SL courses as they will for APs; luckily it is very easy to take some AP exams (foreign language and math/sciences especially) and my SL-level IB classes - math and Spanish - prepared me well enough for a 5 on the AP Calc exam and to test into 3rd-year college Spanish.  The school (state flagship, nothing special) wouldn't give any credit for SL IB Spanish, but the course taught enough to test out of the hours anyway, if that makes sense.

[maize]

Yes, many universities won't give as much credit for IB SL courses as they will for APs; luckily it is very easy to take some AP exams (foreign language and math/sciences especially) and my SL-level IB classes - math and Spanish - prepared me well enough for a 5 on the AP Calc exam and to test into 3rd-year college Spanish. The school (state flagship, nothing special) wouldn't give any credit for SL IB Spanish, but the course taught enough to test out of the hours anyway, if that makes sense.

Exactly.

 

I took AP's for most of my S level courses for the same reason.

 

My theory is that most US universities are not familiar enough with IB to recognize the true challenge level of S levels OR we just aren't willing to admit how not rigorous our AP's are.

 

I even took an AP U.S. History exam with no more preparation than reading a prep book (I wasn't living in the US and had never had any kind of US history class); I scored a 4 on that exam. No way did it compare in challenge level with any of my IB exams.

 

The only exception would probably be Math Studies vs. AP Calculus; those have totally different purposes though. Math Studies is meant for students who do not plan to go into STEM fields.

 

For every other exam I really think S level is at least as rigorous as any AP in the same subject. I guess physics could be another exception since there are multiple AP's and I'm not familiar with scope and sequence for each.

 

The rigor of classes, of course, varies widely from school to school. Some IB schools in the States don't actually have many students getting high marks on the exams. I was at a school where most IB candidates needed those scores to be admitted to universities in Europe; the classes had to prepare them rigorously.

Edited December 29, 2017 by maize