Looking for some objective advice: PS situation

[MedicMom]

My 5 year old is in kindergarten in PS. She is sandwiched between two special needs brothers and we really felt that she needed a space of her own, so to speak. She reads at a mid first grade level and math is close to second grade, facts that have annoyed her teacher since day1. Besides that, her teacher has been a good match for DD5 and I’ve had few complaints, other than the constant snide comments about my homeschooling DS7 and I shouldn’t have taught DD5 along with him(DD5 soaks everything up. She’s just a very smart and academic kid). Teacher is very very Waldorfy and this is her second year in PS. Before this she taught for ten or twelve years in a Waldorf school. I have assumed the early reading issues were attributed to that.

 

Anyway, my younger sister is an education major at the local college and is volunteering in DD’s class this semester. We took DD out of school for five days to go on vacation last week. DH and I work at the same company in the same positionand cannot take vacation the same week in summer due to staffing requirements. Therefore we take vacation in winter. I understand that we won’t be able to do that forever as DD is older and in higher grades. In any case, teacher apparently spent the entire week complaining to my sister about the absence and telling her how we are going to be in trouble if DD has any more absences. She knows we’re sisters. I’d also notified both the teacher and assistant principal well ahead of time of the vacation and taken a week’s worth of work with us.

 

Do I say something to the teacher? I find this unprofessional to discuss with any classroom volunteer, but especially my sister. Another colleague, okay. But this just seems unprofessional and irritates me. However—I don’t know if I’m just overly irritated because I hate gnomes and fairy stories and people who criticize my daughter for reading early.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Honestly, I would let it go.  The opinion of a kindergarten teacher isn't going to impact your child's future education.  I think if you just ignore the annoying things and take the good, you will be at first grade (and a new teacher) before you know it. 

[J-rap]

If it were me, and since the year is half over, and IF your dd is happy there, I'd probably just get through the second half of the year now (and at least you've had your vacation already!), and hope that next year's teacher is better.  (And you can always complain about the teacher after the year's over, if you're still feeling frustrated!)

[Mabelen]

I sympathize with you. It must be irritating. I would let go though. The situation is already over, no point in reliving it. It's not going to be helpful.

[SKL]

I agree, it will not help anything to complain.  If your daughter is happy, no damage done.  I'm glad you took the vacation.  :)  I'm sure it was very educational!

 

I take my kids out for traveling every year.  Some of the teachers hate it, but too bad.  I know the truancy laws and we are nowhere near getting in trouble over that.

 

Funny thing, teachers don't seem to consider it a moral failing when *they* take off.  Phooey.

[Guest]

It is inappropriate, unprofessional, and irritating. 

 

That said.

 

Can you and DD get through the next few months? Will there be a report from K-teacher to 1st-teacher? Is there any suggestion that K-teacher is doing anything else unkind re DD? If the answers are yes, no, no, then I might let it go.

 

If the answers are anything but that, then I might say something, but I'd talk to the principal and phrase it as, "you know, she's a little advanced {you can put in here that it was accidental osmosis from older brother if you want}, I don't want her to be too bored, and K-teacher said [blah blah blah], so I was wondering if there's something I can do to make sure there aren't any problems next year." Then it's you making sure DD is best served without primarily talking about K-teacher unless it becomes necessary.

[Mabelen]

I have to say that it is true that sometimes taking a vacation during the school year can set a child back. For example, in my dual language Spanish immersion classroom this year we had two non Spanish speaking kids take vacations and, of course it did set both of them back. They were gone on overseas vacations for two and three weeks each where they were immersed in a different language. When they got back you could notice the difference compared with their other non Spanish speaking classmates who had not missed class. Another case is when a low performing student misses chunks or is consistently absent, especially when there is no home support, even if they are native or heritage Spanish speakers. For a kid like yours? No problem! They pick right up after a vacation!

Edited December 9, 2017 by Mabelen

[MedicMom]

I’m not debating pulling her out or anything. She loves school and I can’t meet her social needs at home right now with her brothers’ other needs. I don’t know if I should say something nicely to the teacher, because I’m planning two more times to pull her out(one day once, three days another, both for field trips I’m taking her brother on) later in the school year.

I don’t want to cause problems, but I also don’t want the teacher complaining to my sister every time I take DD out.

 

I also had sooooo many problems with this school when DS1 was there for three years that now I might possibly overreact. While the teacher is not unkind to DD, she also makes semi-snide remarks about DD reading so well that DD believes she shouldn’t be able to read. She doesn’t make these comments to DD, but in her presence, and DD comprehends EVERYTHING.

Edited December 9, 2017 by MedicMom

[snowbeltmom]

I’m not debating pulling her out or anything. She loves school and I can’t meet her social needs at home right now with her brothers’ other needs. I don’t know if I should say something nicely to the teacher, because I’m planning two more times to pull her out(one day once, three days another, both for field trips I’m taking her brother on) later in the school year.

I don’t want to cause problems, but I also don’t want the teacher complaining to my sister every time I take DD out.

I wouldn't say anything, although I would find her comments very annoying.  I don't think anything you could say would change her opinion, and if she didn't take your comments well, she may take her frustration out on your D.

[unsinkable]

So did the teacher WANT your sister to tell you?

 

I'd hate for the teacher to give your sister a bad eval bc of it. Logically, the teacher is in the wrong but given what has already transpired, I wouldn't trust the teacher. She might get mad at your sister for repeating it.

[Tanaqui]

Wow, what a witch!

 

Some teachers don't like bright children. The Waldorf connection is probably part of it, but even without it - some teachers don't like bright children. They don't like having to do the extra work. Sad, but true.

 

If you're not going to remove her, and your daughter is not personally suffering from this nonsense, then I'd keep my mouth shut until the end of the year. And then, the day the school year ends, I'd whomp down a whole litany of complaints to the administration, hoo-boy. Record everything, drop it in their laps the last day of school with a note that you would've brought it up sooner except you were worried about her retaliating.

 

This may not be the best way to go. Actually, I can see many ways this could backfire. But the thought of doing that would keep me going the whole gosh-darn year.

[SereneHome]

I am usually not shy about voicing my opinions, concerns and irritation but at the same time I don't take things personally.  So, as long your daughter is happy and this teacher is not taking her frustration on the child - I would completely ignore it.

 

But is this the same place that called CPS on you for your other child?  If so, I truly feel bad for you bc, if I remember correctly, you didn't have any other school options and this place sounds horrible.  Hang in there!!

[MEmama]

DS was in a similar situation in K and the first half of grade 1, which got to be so bad we ended up pulling him out and homeschooling the next 7.5 years.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes a kindergarten teachers impression CAN follow kids throughout their schooling. I worked as an aide in a K class in DS's school and watched how it played out. The teachers LOATHED kids who were ahead--his actually told me to my face it wasn't her responsibility to meet kids where they were. They wrote off the siblings of kids they'd had in previous years if they didn't like them (I kid not, as in refusing to help them and making it very clear they were destined to not do well in school or life--this was Kindergarten, and based on their siblings!). It was AWFUL. And the kids' reputations based on these early grades really did follow them from grade to grade.

 

Idk. A bad fit can be super detrimental, especially when the child feels the heat--which yours must if remarks are being told directly to her. You can complain, though I would expect it to only make things worse, you can bite your tongue and hope it gets better next year, or you can find an alternative situation that might be a better fit.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this. I've had it with teachers who don't understand their profession.

[MedicMom]

I am usually not shy about voicing my opinions, concerns and irritation but at the same time I don't take things personally. So, as long your daughter is happy and this teacher is not taking her frustration on the child - I would completely ignore it.

 

But is this the same place that called CPS on you for your other child? If so, I truly feel bad for you bc, if I remember correctly, you didn't have any other school options and this place sounds horrible. Hang in there!!

Same child, but that was a day care center. I had a lot of problems with this school over DS and the special education department. There is a new principal and superintendent this year though and they’ve been fantastic with homeschooling support. I’m actually very impressed with that aspect.

[Caroline]

Is your sister volunteering in the classroom, or is it part of her college program?

[Alessandra]

I'd rather have a Waldorfy teacher than a test-centric teacher who wants to pressure children academically. I'd let it go.

[Alessandra]

Dp

Edited December 9, 2017 by Alessandra

[MedicMom]

Is your sister volunteering in the classroom, or is it part of her college program?

She’s volunteering; one of her professors told her it was a good thing to do while in college for the experience. The school placed her in my daughter’s classroom. I don’t think my sister was aware until the first day that it was DD’s class.

 

The school is heavily test centric and is doing an attendance push, which may have led to the comments by the teacher. we are still well below their 30% limit for unexcused absences though.

[catz]

Complaining about kids being ahead is just ridiculous.  My kid went into PS kindergarten having a good grasp of letters and sounds but wasn't really interested in reading and came out reading at about a 5th-6th grade level.  He went to play based preschool.  Bright/GT kids learn by osmosis whether we want them to or not.  Guess we can "blame" his kindergarten teacher for that. :huh:   We didn't start homeschooling until 2nd grade when teachers just kept throwing up their hands when he got sick of hoop jumping. 

 

I would try to forget it if the rest of the situation is working well enough for now.  It is unusual that your sister is working there.  If she weren't, you probably wouldn't know and maybe the teacher wouldn't know the back story about your homeschooling situation.  Good teachers should be able to work with and keep kids engaged at many levels.  There is a HUGE range of kids in many kindergarten and elementary classrooms and that's normal IMO.  Reading a year a head of grade level is not that nuts.  I think a lot of time it's just developmental and there's a range of normal.   

 

Is this a Waldorf school?  I actually think if your kid is ahead academically, a more touchy, feely hands on classroom might be a good fit?  Do you have other school options available to you if this one doesn't work out. 

 

ETA - I also think complaining about taking a kid out on vacation unless there are special circumstances is nuts.  A child with an engaged parent exploring a new setting with museums, parks, shows, etc are doing important work.  Some of our best homeschooling before high school has taken place on the road!

Edited December 9, 2017 by WoolySocks

[fraidycat]

I’d let it go and would not even bat an eye about taking DD out whenever the heck I wanted to.

 

Some people just deserve to be ignored, even teachers. Just because she has an opinion, it does not mean you have to give it any weight in your life.

 

As long as she is not taking her frustration with you out on your DD, just ignore, ignore, ignore.

[Sandwalker]

I’m not debating pulling her out or anything. She loves school and I can’t meet her social needs at home right now with her brothers’ other needs. I don’t know if I should say something nicely to the teacher, because I’m planning two more times to pull her out(one day once, three days another, both for field trips I’m taking her brother on) later in the school year.

I don’t want to cause problems, but I also don’t want the teacher complaining to my sister every time I take DD out.

 

I also had sooooo many problems with this school when DS1 was there for three years that now I might possibly overreact. While the teacher is not unkind to DD, she also makes semi-snide remarks about DD reading so well that DD believes she shouldn’t be able to read. She doesn’t make these comments to DD, but in her presence, and DD comprehends EVERYTHING.

The snide comments about a 5-year old reading bother me a lot more than her discussing your dd with her aunt.

 

I still remember being in kindergarten (1963), and the teacher made me sit in the corner because I could read. She was reading a picture book aloud with the book facing the class, but she was skipping every other page--just reading the left hand page. I was reading the other pages to the friend sitting next to me, trying to do it quietly. The teacher asked what I was doing, and I said I was reading the pages she missed. Honestly, the story made no sense the way she was doing it. She said, "You can't read, come up here" and held the book up. I started reading it aloud, and she stopped me and told me to sit in the corner for acting "fresh." I was so humiliated.

 

That's the only time I think my dad ever went to the school to talk to a teacher/principal, he was furious. I read at 3 1/2; it's something that my dd did, also, at 3. I never formally taught her, of course we always read to her and she knew her letters, but she just began to read one day.

[nixpix5]

I would grudgingly say let it go. Partly because having worked with teachers like her, some can be vindictive and make things worse. Take the high ride as much as you can.

 

I will say that she is unprofessional and annoying. I can see why you are upset and I would be too. Keep a close eye on DD and if her snide comments are beginning to have an averse effect on her then I might have a cordial and direct conversation with her. Otherwise, you are half way down with the year thank goodness ;)

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know if you can fix this by talking to the teacher or not.  On the one hand, I agree with others, you might be better off just riding it out and getting to the end of the year.   On the other hand, the teacher may well be discussing this with other teachers as well.  The teacher's attitude could impact your daughter when she moves to other classes.

 

You might consider simply scheduling a meeting with the teacher, keeping as upbeat and positive as possible, to discuss the upcoming field trips.  Thank her for the things that are going well, possibly apologize for any inconvenience the previous field trip/absence may have caused her, share a bit of why you felt the field trip was important for your child to go on but mainly focus on what is going well and anything that may need to be addressed for the upcoming field trips.  Ignore the rest for now unless it comes up in the course of the conversation.  Try to build a rapport.  I have found that even with obnoxious teachers if I keep lines of communication open, make extra effort to keep those lines open, and am pleasant I can often shift their crappy attitude.  Not always but often.

 

FWIW, a great many members of my family are teachers.  I will say that sometimes kids getting pulled out of school for what seem like vacations can make a teacher feel like what they are doing in the classroom is not valued by the parent.  It can lead to resentment.  I think there is a lot more going on here than that but this may be a component.

Edited December 9, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Tanaqui]

FWIW, a great many members of my family are teachers. I will say that sometimes kids getting pulled out of school for what seem like vacations can make a teacher feel like what they are doing in the classroom is not valued by the parent. It can lead to resentment. I think there is a lot more going on here than that but this may be a component.

 

True, and it's a fair point. You should also consider the issue of school funding. If funding is based on butts in seats, your child's week-long absence means less money for the school. Which is stupid - it doesn't cost less to run the school just because your kid was out, but that's how things are often done.

 

Though it sounds like this teacher was already a pain.

[scoutingmom]

The snide comments about a 5-year old reading bother me a lot more than her discussing your dd with her aunt.

 

I still remember being in kindergarten (1963), and the teacher made me sit in the corner because I could read. She was reading a picture book aloud with the book facing the class, but she was skipping every other page--just reading the left hand page. I was reading the other pages to the friend sitting next to me, trying to do it quietly. The teacher asked what I was doing, and I said I was reading the pages she missed. Honestly, the story made no sense the way she was doing it. She said, "You can't read, come up here" and held the book up. I started reading it aloud, and she stopped me and told me to sit in the corner for acting "fresh." I was so humiliated.

 

That's the only time I think my dad ever went to the school to talk to a teacher/principal, he was furious. I read at 3 1/2; it's something that my dd did, also, at 3. I never formally taught her, of course we always read to her and she knew her letters, but she just began to read one day.

I feel sad for you.

 

My K teacher had me read to the class while she got other things ready. Not only could I read, I could read upside down, so I could even hold the book so they could see the pictures while I read.

[scoutingmom]

On some teachers not being great for bright kids

 

Even though I planned to homeschool, I went to the Kindergarten Open House for the local school when my oldest was at that age. One of the big things they discussed was that K was to bring all the students to the same level. I remember asking about kids that are ahead.... I can't remember how they worded it, but basically they would try to slow the child down... I was sitting there thinking 'Why would everyone be thinking this is a good thing?'

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Pen]

She's both angry that your dd is ahead, and complaining that missing a few days will cause her to be behind?

 

 

[JFSinIL]

I'd ask your sister to shut the teacher down if she starts in again "Oh, you should probably discuss this with the mom". And also ask sister to NOT repeat stuff back at you if there is not much you can do about it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by JFSinIL

[MedicMom]

I’m not going to say anything to the teacher. I think my sister was just shocked that she said anything to her and not me. This is a small town and it’s not unusual to have family of the students, even aunts and grandma’s, volunteering in the classroom. I just don’t want this teacher talking about our family choices to everyone but me. Colleagues are one thing; volunteers to me are a completely different story.

 

The teacher hasn’t said a word to me about the absences, so I don’t know what the deal is. It may just be that the administration is making a huge deal about kids missing school. We have a lot of the “it’s cold and I’m tired and don’t want to get my kid breakfast and on the bus/drive them to school†mentality in my community.

 

I think the bottom line is that I’d feel a lot better about it if she said to me, “We’re under a lot of pressure from admin to cut down on absences and so you might be hearing from them,†rather than talking to a volunteer about it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by MedicMom

[OneStepAtATime]

I’m not going to say anything to the teacher. I think my sister was just shocked that she said anything to her and not me. This is a small town and it’s not unusual to have family of the students, even aunts and grandma’s, volunteering in the classroom. I just don’t want this teacher talking about our family choices to everyone but me. Colleagues are one thing; volunteers to me are a completely different story.

 

The teacher hasn’t said a word to me about the absences, so I don’t know what the deal is. It may just be that the administration is making a huge deal about kids missing school. We have a lot of the “it’s cold and I’m tired and don’t want to get my kid breakfast and on the bus/drive them to school†mentality in my community.

 

I think the bottom line is that I’d feel a lot better about it if she said to me, “We’re under a lot of pressure from admin to cut down on absences and so you might be hearing from them,†rather than talking to a volunteer about it.

Then open up a positive dialogue right now, before this festers.  Schedule a parent/teacher conference.  Reach out, start a discussion, keep it light but nip this in the bud before it potentially snowballs.  Use the upcoming field trips as the starting point/reason for the discussion.

[solascriptura]

It is unprofessional and irrating, but it wouldn’t bother me enough to do much about it. If the teacher does it again, you might to email or speak to her about it. Just as most people in workplaces talk about things like other coworkers or customers, that is what the teacher was doing.

[NorthwestMom]

I’d let it go and would not even bat an eye about taking DD out whenever the heck I wanted to.

 

Some people just deserve to be ignored, even teachers. Just because she has an opinion, it does not mean you have to give it any weight in your life.

 

As long as she is not taking her frustration with you out on your DD, just ignore, ignore, ignore.

:iagree:

 

I am a former teacher. Parents take their kids out of school for vacations all the time. Yours is a kindy (!) who is accelerated. WHO CARES! Live your life and count the days until you move on from this teacher. Some people are petty.

 

Also, as you know, there's no privacy in a small town. Your kid's ahead and she is complaining to people about that, and that she gets to go on a vacation? Rolling my eyes AND shaking my head. Good grief.  :rolleyes:

[Catwoman]

If the teacher is making your dd feel odd about being able to read, that is something I would definitely discuss with the teacher, to let the teacher know I was proud of my child and I didn't appreciate the teacher making discouraging comments to her.

 

I wouldn't worry at all about the absence and I wouldn't bother talking to the teacher about it. It's kindergarten, for crying out loud. :glare:

[happi duck]

This reminds me of Scout's teacher in To kill a Mockingbird!

[SKL]

When my kids were entering 1st grade, I mentioned to the teacher that we would be taking some travel trips and I hoped it was OK with her if they missed a day or two here and there.  The teacher's response indicated that she didn't think it was good for them to miss even one day.  As the trips drew near, I asked for their school assignments in advance, but none were given.  (Similar for grades 2-5:  so far, no teacher has ever given us advance assignments, but I always ask.)  We went anyway, no regrets.  Afterward we had to complete the missed work on the same draconian schedule that applies when a kid is out sick. 

 

In retrospect, I probably should not have made it a point to talk to the teacher about travel, until we were close to leaving.  Having the advance discussion could have been read as "do you think it matters whether my kids are present or not?"  Well of course the teacher thinks her work matters every day of the year.  And it does.

 

That said, with all due respect, spending a few days out of 180 doing something enriching is not in any way implying that the teacher's work is unimportant.

 

And even if it really does harm some students to miss days for travel, how can the same teacher complain about that one day, and the next day complain that the kid is advanced?

 

My advanced kid has generally been a great student, but pretty much every teacher has commented that she's always trying to read in class, or play with toys.  Why?  Well because her brain needs something to do.  If it's so annoying to have such a kid in class, why don't they celebrate when the kid is off traveling?  I am sure they have enough to do with the kids who are present rather than fuss about an advanced kid who is absent.

 

But like a pp said - if the teachers are complaining about my kids taking off a few days to travel, I don't even want to know.  I'm sure they find plenty to judge me about if they get in the mood.  I don't want to hear any of it.  I only want to hear what needs to be said in order for my kids to succeed in school.

Edited December 10, 2017 by SKL

[KungFuPanda]

She sounds like a weirdo. What educator complains that a child reads too well?

[scoutingmom]

She sounds like a weirdo. What educator complains that a child reads too well?

That was a factor in my family in the 70's. Not sure of the details (and I get mixed info from my parents), but my oldest brother struggled a lot in grade 1 (never did K) because of the teacher giving him grief over being able to read already. They determined not to teach any more kids to read before school. (That didn't work for me.... lol)

[eternalsummer]

My kids were in a Waldorf charter for a while; there is a definite bias against being advanced academically.  They told me DS9 (then 7) needed to be bored in class because it would give his body time to catch up with his mind, as it was inappropriate for his mind to be ahead of his body (that is, it was inappropriate for him to read Harry Potter before his handwriting was particularly legible or before he could knit).  It was a weird argument, and he is not exactly a well-behaved kid when he is bored, so he ended up purposely getting in trouble every day in order to be sent to the principal's office, where he was allowed to sit by himself and read (instead of listen to the umpteenth lesson on gnomes pronouncing the letter A - in 2nd grade!)

 

Anyway, all that to say, I would be irritated too, but I'd probably swallow it and just get through the rest of the year.

[Sandwalker]

I wanted to send my kids to a Waldorf school, but we couldn't afford it. I'm glad now after reading this ^

[Pink and Green Mom]

Unfortunately, sometimes a kindergarten teachers impression CAN follow kids throughout their schooling. I worked as an aide in a K class in DS's school and watched how it played out. The teachers LOATHED kids who were ahead--his actually told me to my face it wasn't her responsibility to meet kids where they were. They wrote off the siblings of kids they'd had in previous years if they didn't like them (I kid not, as in refusing to help them and making it very clear they were destined to not do well in school or life--this was Kindergarten, and based on their siblings!). It was AWFUL. And the kids' reputations based on these early grades really did follow them from grade to grade.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

We had the exact same scenario with both of our kids in PS in Virginia.  I was chastised for (a) teaching them to read (Mrs. LastName, said the K teacher, you are not qualified to teach reading), and (b) using - gasp - phonics (Mrs. LastName, said the teacher, you are setting your child up for a lifetime of failure by using phonics).  I called my cousin, an elementary school principal, to get her take.  She told me that most teachers and admin cannot stand it when children come to school able to read.  She was the one who suggested homeschooling to me.

 

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.  If I were you and your child will be staying in PS, I'd start researching the first grade teachers.  Find out which one will be the most amenable to an advanced kid, and start pushing for placement in that classroom for next year.

[Sandwalker]

Maybe I am just getting more tinfoil hattish with age, but it seems more and more that the schools are actively trying to dumb down the population.

[DawnM]

Maybe she is jealous that you got a week off.  I know I have a student going to South America this week and I am very jealous!  :lol:

 

However, I was able to talk to the attendance manager for our district and get 2 of the days excused, the other 3 will be unexcused.

[Mabelen]

I am dismayed to hear that so many of you had negative experiences in kindergarten because you or your kids could read!

 

I have not had that experience either as a mom or as a teacher.

 

My older daughter could read fluently since she was three. We never had a problem. She was just given reading material at her level. My younger one started kindergarten just knowing her letter sounds. She took off soon enough and ended up at the highest reading level in the class with kids who could already read at the beginning of the year.

 

Where I teach, kids are evaluated during the first few weeks of the school year and separated into five different groups according to level. We re evaluate periodically and re arrange groups throughout the year.

 

I just don't understand how some teachers and administrators can be so negative about something so positive!

[creekland]

I'd watch Hidden Figures with my daughter and have a decent heart to heart talk about how being ahead of the norm is NOT a bad thing no matter what anyone says.

 

I'd also be hoping for a better teacher the following year.  I might even ask around if I could to see if I could request someone others had liked.  Some school districts don't let you request teachers though.  Often they let you nix one or two, so if you know of any that are likely to be similar, you might be able to nix them giving you better odds for one you like.

 

As for vacations?  We pulled ours out as we wanted to - even for a month.  We didn't ask permission.  We merely asked the school if they wanted to allow it or wanted us to disenroll them then reenroll upon our return.  They chose to just deal with it.  Fortunately, we had fantastic teachers who opted to use my kids rather than disdain them.  My youngest was an "on the spot reporter" one year at Volcanoes NP as his class was studying volcanoes, etc.  I wish all teachers could be like that - encouraging everyone rather than disparaging some.  We ended up homeschooling for high school (the two older ones anyway).  It amazes me that a kindergarten teacher would be so uppity about it all!  Kindergarten is honestly no big deal...