Stimming question

[mamashark]

I'm filling out the paperwork for my son's eval (he's 4, turning 5 end of Jan. his eval is the first week of January - I keep willing the phone to ring so that she can get us in sooner, but at least it's on the books). And as such I've been noticing little things that my son does that I've never paid attention to before, like when he is flicking his fingers against his cheek in a repetitive manner... it's subtler than "hand flapping" but... 

 

Anyways I started thinking today about how he will lay on his bed on his tummy and rub on his lovie.... the Dr. told us this was normal behavior when our eldest daughter did this (she said they're too young to get pleasure out of it but didn't really give us much other than to not worry about it...). The dr. said that it's not a thing they necessarily need to grow out of but that it's important to teach children privacy and only in bed, etc. as they grow older. Our daughter grew out of it, but I don't remember what age - it was kind of gradual and she's 9 now. It seems to be a bedtime thing, often, and some days, like today, he spends a lot of time in his bed. Does this behavior rate in the category of stimming? Should I include it in the paperwork? Or is the Dr. right that it's "normal" behavior? 

 

BTW: we don't go to this Dr. anymore - and she is the reason we are only now getting around to the evaluation. She told us his behaviors were normal, even when I voiced concern at appointment after appointment. My husband believed her for a long time until I was able to prove to him that he was not outgrowing behaviors that he should have and he is now seeing how different our 2 year old responds to the same types of things and he agreed to an eval. Thus my wondering if her advice on the rubbing is accurate. 

[nature girl]

I'd say it's normal. My daughter did it too as a toddler/preschooler and has since outgrown it. (I did some research at the time, even posted in a message board and heard from moms who had done it themselves at a very young age, so it's very common.) They do get pleasure from it, but it's not sexual in the way we think of it.

[Lecka]

It's normal but you still put it on the paper. 

 

On the other hand -- the flicking his cheek can be stimming for sure. 

 

But here is the thing ---- stimming isn't something that definitely means anything. 

 

And then also for stimming questions, sometimes they want to know if the child is spending a lot of time not doing the kinds of play they are looking for at a certain age or developmental level.  It can be part of an absence of certain things they are looking for. 

 

So I think put it on the paper, but at the same time, it's not like "wow this is some huge thing that has a huge amount of meaning" all by itself. 

 

 

And then if you do end up with something where it is an official stimming situation ----- here is some info about stimming. 

 

There are many possible functions for stimming.  Some are "productive" (aka fine, not a problem) and some are "not productive." 

 

Productive might be -- it is self-regulating, it is calming. 

 

It can be self-regulating if kids "seek input" and can help them to focus and learn.  I know more about this as my son is considered to self-regulate by stimming a lot of the time.

 

My son used to stim a lot more, too, and part of the reason was that he didn't have other independent play skills.  So he learned some more independent play skills and shifted to playing instead of stimming over time.  But he didn't know how to kick a ball around or play with toys, so he didn't, and instead he was stimming a lot.

 

There was some more to it than that, but this is stuff that would have been nice for me to know! 

[PeterPan]

People are of this confused idea that autism behavior is abnormal, but in reality basically anything a person with autism does, other people do. It's HUMAN behavior. It's the combination of all the behaviors, when they do them, etc. that makes them fit the criteria for the diagnosis. Uniquely Human | Dr. Barry M. Prizant  Prizant talks about this.

 

So you don't need to judge the behaviors. Just write it all down. Yes, write down everything repetitive, everything unusual. My ds used to untie my shoes. You might be like ok, big flip. But he did it EVERY TIME, every single time I would come to wipe him. And that thing would rotate. So he might do that for a month or two, then the repetitive thing would move on to something else. None of it was necessarily stuff that people would say oh clinical, but it was this overall picture of the frequency, the need to do it, and having the repetitive behaviors and and and and. 

 

And I hate to ask, but you're saying he rubs himself, not a binkie or a blanket or something? Why are you letting him spend so much time on his bed when you suspect autism? You set a timer and you say hey we're gonna take a 5 minute break and then we're going to go for a walk. When my ds is withdrawing, it's not a sign to let him withdraw. If he needs a break, give him a break, but then we're going to work on reconnecting, building bridges, getting back together. Too much time alone like that is not good for my ds. When he's yelling to leave him alone, it's my ds' cue that he needs MORE of something, not less, that he's feeling disconnected or overwhelmed and needs something to get him back to stable and connected and ready to go forward. 

 

Are you getting an OT eval? Sounds like he needs a sensory diet.

[mamashark]

People are of this confused idea that autism behavior is abnormal, but in reality basically anything a person with autism does, other people do. It's HUMAN behavior. It's the combination of all the behaviors, when they do them, etc. that makes them fit the criteria for the diagnosis. Uniquely Human | Dr. Barry M. Prizant  Prizant talks about this.

 

So you don't need to judge the behaviors. Just write it all down. Yes, write down everything repetitive, everything unusual. My ds used to untie my shoes. You might be like ok, big flip. But he did it EVERY TIME, every single time I would come to wipe him. And that thing would rotate. So he might do that for a month or two, then the repetitive thing would move on to something else. None of it was necessarily stuff that people would say oh clinical, but it was this overall picture of the frequency, the need to do it, and having the repetitive behaviors and and and and. 

 

And I hate to ask, but you're saying he rubs himself, not a binkie or a blanket or something? Why are you letting him spend so much time on his bed when you suspect autism? You set a timer and you say hey we're gonna take a 5 minute break and then we're going to go for a walk. When my ds is withdrawing, it's not a sign to let him withdraw. If he needs a break, give him a break, but then we're going to work on reconnecting, building bridges, getting back together. Too much time alone like that is not good for my ds. When he's yelling to leave him alone, it's my ds' cue that he needs MORE of something, not less, that he's feeling disconnected or overwhelmed and needs something to get him back to stable and connected and ready to go forward. 

 

Are you getting an OT eval? Sounds like he needs a sensory diet.

 

The concept that autistic behavior is human behavior is something I learned when my older daughter when to OT. We used the How does your Engine Run program with her (and I've tried it with my son but it kind of failed miserably) and I realized how much I do to regulate my own engine, but just do it in a more "appropriate" way.

 

Honestly - regarding why I allow him to spend so much alone time in his bed when I suspect autism? It's because I don't know what to do. I am overwhelmed and in need of direction and when I allow him to spend his time self-directed, I have fewer fits. He spends a lot of time playing, too, and I add sensory integration as often as I can with jumping and swinging and other typed of activities as suggested by an OT. 

 

... I got interrupted and am on the phone now, sorry if this seems disjointed and unfinished!

[PeterPan]

Sounds like a time to bring in ABA. Are you homeschooling too, so he's having behaviors when you're trying to do things with other kids and deal with him at the same time?

[mamashark]

Sounds like a time to bring in ABA. Are you homeschooling too, so he's having behaviors when you're trying to do things with other kids and deal with him at the same time?

 

yes, I found a place near me that takes our insurance for ABA but I have to have a diagnosis first and they won't evaluate him. I've spent several weeks trying to figure out how the process works because it took forever to get people to call me back! 

 

Yes, I homeschool too - if I allow him to be self-directed he doesn't throw fits. If I impose on him with requests or try to get him to do something I've got a 50/50 chance of a fit. Yesterday he was fine until dinner, which he promptly threw a fit and ran away before even sitting down. Our 9 year old was able to talk him back to the table and he ate the entire dinner, which was nothing short of miraculous! Then he started finger flicking his cheek while talking about wanting to tell Nana and Gramps on skype that he ate dinner...followed later by him avoiding skype the entire time we were on. I had to call them back after saying goodbye when he ran to the computer a minute too late to talk to them. But trying to talk him into coming sooner caused him to shut down - grunts, turning his head away, running away with a car to play with. 

 

...and at the moment he has forced himself behind me in my chair, pushing on my back with his legs and crying softly "no sit" over and over because I told him he can't have a hot dog right now.

[PeterPan]

Have you read the book Stop That Seemingly Senseless Behavior yet? I'm not saying stop the stimming. Just the book is really good at helping you do FBA and figure out *why* they're having the behavior. When you understand what the behavior was communicating, what the function was, then you can connect better and know how to respond. 

 

Have you tried doing "first/then" with him? When my ds was that age-ish (a little later, but still) we got some picture card downloads from https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Store/Autism-Classroom-Resources-christine-Reeve  Her stuff is AWESOME. Like you really can't go wrong with it. She has a really nice pack of planning/schedule figures and it includes all kinds of activities, an first/then chart, etc. 

 

So rather than saying no to his hot dog request (which seems pretty reasonable actually if he's low tone in his mouth and hungry all the time like my ds was) but set it up as a first/then. FIRST eat half a banana, THEN we will have half a hotdog. Or WHILE you eat this half banana, I will cook the corn dog.

 

I get it if you're like he only eats hot dogs. But there are ways to work on variety but not say no. If you're tiptoeing around, it's only gonna get worse. He's going to throw fits as you make demands. That's the point. But we don't have to set it up really hard. You can have the demand be something he's already about to do or something you know he wants to do, kwim? 

 

Forcing conversations doesn't make a lot of sense. He might not have been able to problem solve and think of some inbetween options he might have been comfortable with. My ds now, at 9, can have a really brief conversation on the phone with someone he knows REALLY WELL. Odds are he doesn't know these people really well, even if they're blood and love him. So that's just a huge reach. But you could be like hey where do you want to be while we're skyping, on my lap with the snack or sitting here at that table (sort of to the side of the view of the camera, still seen) while we skyping with Grandma? Either way he gets a highly preferred motivator (food is big for my ds) and he gets a choice. What does it matter if he's there? He might listen. He might not respond. Either way Grandma got to see him. There's no point making him stressed over it. That doesn't accomplish any good. 

 

I'm glad you've got a place lined up to get some help once you get the diagnosis. Will they come to your home? We found a private behaviorist with experience with homeschoolers, and she was able to come to our home. In a clinic wouldn't have done much for us. We really needed in-home. 

 

The thing about beginning interventions is that sometimes they actually want MORE interaction as they begin to get used to it. Like if that were my ds, that "no sit" would mean come do something with me, don't be on the computer, I need you. It's kind of wearying and it wasn't really what I expected. i thought he had a limited amount to give and someone else was going to come in and suck it up. Instead he started wanting MORE interaction! 

Edited December 9, 2017 by PeterPan