Jump to content

Menu

another How do you handle an intentionally difficult high schooler? thread


Recommended Posts

DS is in 9th grade at BMS. 

 

Not homeschooling currently because he did not want to anymore, and was refusing to work for me.

 

He is now refusing to work for his BMS teachers also.  Not only in most of his academics, but also in supposedly more fun electives.

 

 

 

His Study Hall teacher called me up.  His teachers are frustrated.  I am frustrated.  No one is sure what will make things better or worse.

 

When ds does his work he is capable of making A's.  His current grades are tending to be a mix of 100%'s when he does something and 0%'s when he does not--averaging out to around 50% which is an F.  His last quarter grades were 4 A's, 2 B's, 1 Pass.  Even if he gets all F's right now he will pass everything but English for the Semester because of last Quarter's grades.  BUT if he does not start doing his work, he will be too far behind in math and science and maybe foreign language to be able to catch up and pass them for the next quarter, semester and year grades.  And he is already red-shirted, so cannot just redo the year.

 

 

DS says the only thing that would motivate him to want to do school work would be if he were paid.  I might actually consider this, but am concerned it might make things worse.

 

Ds does have some LD's  and is 2e, but that does not seem to be the main problem.

 

He has fallen in with a few of the worst possible influence type of kids.  He told me that one of them will soon turn 16 and can legally drop out, as if that is a goal of ds's now, though he did not specifically say that. 

 

So far, though, he still is enjoying the social and extracurricular activities parts of school.  And has almost perfect attendance, and likes to go to school.  ETA: and when I asked him about maybe going back to homeschool said he wants to stay in BMS, so maybe telling me about the kids who is planning to soon drop out is just talking and not ds's goal.

 

There is an upcoming trip for Ds's track team to go to Seattle, which given ds's current grades, the coaches may refuse to let him go on. It is not clear if this will end up helping to motivate ds to get to work so that he can go, or be one more thing that will keep him out of some of the positive things he is still doing and more positive peers he still interacts with.

 

Ds has also expressed some interest in National Guard when they recruited, and there is apparently a possibility that if he officially expressed interest to a recruitment officer that might be something that would help lead him toward a more disciplined attitude to school and life--but again, it might not and could backfire.  And it is not clear if he was really interested or it was just a passing thought.

 

Thoughts?

 

Suggestions?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My parents required a minimum 3.0 GPA in order to take the driver's license test and then to have use of their 3rd car.

 

There was dangled the carrot of a new car as a graduation gift for all A's or higher (not A-) in every academic course every quarter for the full 4 years of high school. I was on track to earn the latter until pre-calculus in 11th.

 

The latter was a big motivator for me, while the former was a motivator for my brothers.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might stop by or call the National Guard recruiter and ask about if they would prefer your son have a high school diploma and not a GED. Usually they will really, really encourage kids to get a diploma. But I might call ahead to verify that, just to be sure, as recruiting standards can vary from time to time.

 

That's just a thought, my husband is in the Army so talking to a recruiter with a parent or having a relationship with a recruiter through part of high school is not uncommon to me.

 

If he is supposed to have a consequence of missing the track and field trip, personally if he is supposed to miss it I would want him to miss it if he might join the military.

 

I would hate for the first time to experience a hard consequence to happen in basic training, I think that is pretty rough.

 

Of course my kids aren't teenagers yet so I'm sure easier said than done, and I'm hoping I don't have to eat any of my words in the next few years!!!!!!

 

Edit: iirc my husband entered DEP (when you say you want to join the military) between his Junior and Senior year in high school, and it did contribute to him graduating, because he did hate school.

Edited by Lecka
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:grouphug:  So sad to hear you're having this issue with DS.

 

 

The no longer working even in fun elective courses suggests sliding towards depression or other possible mental health concern -- one sign is lack of interest in activities that were formally of interest.

 

Would a chemical imbalance/mental health be a possible cause of the downward spiraling attitude? Would a thorough check-up and blood-work up be useful?

 

In trying to discern cause of this lack of interest in or unwillingness to, work, a first step might be to eliminate things that are possible contributors:

 

- Is DS not getting enough sleep? (i.e.: needs a darker room, has a shifted teen sleep schedule, needs melatonin supplement, etc.)

- Is DS not getting enough regular aerobic exercise? (raises seratonin levels, aids in good sleep, throws off anxiety/stress)

- Possible food intolerance or some sort of chronic illness thing that could be knocking his emotions and attitudes wonky? (wheat, corn, dairy, sugar, dyes, processed food/chemicals are the biggies)

- Is DS getting addicted to gaming or experimenting with substances (drugs, alcohol, huffing, etc.)?

 

 

Not trying to go overboard or cause unwarranted panic. Just trying to brainstorm possible causes, which can then make it easier to figure out possible solutions.

 

It may just be typical boy hormones -- that temporary losing of their brains, and also not having a clear purpose or reason for doing school -- i.e., no strong career goal at this stage (very very common!) and so "what's the point" of high school classes -- so no strong internal motivator and reasoning of why it's important to work and keep up grades. If this is the case, then it seems like, as annoying as it is for the parent, a carrot and stick routine might work the best: frequent carrot rewards for the student when doing the school work at a minimum required level and with a reasonable attitude, coupled with a lot of you trudging along behind and poking with the sharp stick to keep the student moving forward.  :zombiechase:

 

 

Hope you get some good responses, and quickly find what works for you and for DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might stop by or call the National Guard recruiter and ask about if they would prefer your son have a high school diploma and not a GED. Usually they will really, really encourage kids to get a diploma...

 

Yes, the military is taking very few GED holders these days (unless they also have a minimum of 15 college credits), and when applicants with a GED are accepted they are not eligible for Tier 1 positions.

 

 

If the National Guard is a goal of DS, perhaps going together and talking to a recruiter so DS can see the reality of what they DO want and expect -- that might give him an outside motivation to work for.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My husband was this kid, but maybe worse. He would show up on test days, get a hundred, then skip many other days and never turn in work. He'd fail the class, of course, but could make it up in summer school in a few short weeks without any homework. Eventually he fell far enough behind in math that he couldn't get A's without studying, but at that point he was 16 and could drop out, get his ged, and start community college. He decided that was too much like high school, and this was just after 9/11, so he joined the army, where he thrived. Later, he went to college on the GI bill, but it was hard because he had a family and job to work around, so he didn't get as much of the best aspects of university life (late night discussions on deep topics, etc) a would have been optimal, and it was hard to fit it in. Still, he graduated with Latin honors.

It's hard to say what would have helped. He kept having adults ask him, "what can we do to help you do this work/make you care/..." He remembers being really annoyed at this. They were adults, he figured, and shouldn't be relying on an obviously depressed and disengaged teen to figure this out. He thinks a meaningful job would have helped (Not flipping burgers for a paycheck, but learning to weld or something). Also, he really wanted to join the military, but this didn't fit what his family expected of their kids, so he didn't know much about military career paths, military academies, etc. If some one had helped him make a plan for West Point, taken him on runs, helped him develop a personal PT schedule, that would likely have motivated. He needed someone to show him a path to manhood. The school counselors were only focused on a path to passing classes so that he could graduate and go to college to take more classes (which, they promised, would be more interesting)

I hope that helps give you some ideas or at least have hope that just because a kid blows off high school, he won't necessarily blow off life. Some kids really want to be adults but need some help knowing how to get there while being given space to make some decisions that matter.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many sports don't allow kids to participate unless they have at least a C average.  This is one of the only things I really like about sports in schools, is that it keeps some kids who would otherwise be apathetic at least interested enough to go and get Cs.  

 

Do you know if your kids' track team operates like this, or if the district as a whole does?  (often it is a district-wide policy).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many sports don't allow kids to participate unless they have at least a C average.  This is one of the only things I really like about sports in schools, is that it keeps some kids who would otherwise be apathetic at least interested enough to go and get Cs.  

 

Do you know if your kids' track team operates like this, or if the district as a whole does?  (often it is a district-wide policy).

 

 

Yes.  For all sports (as a combo of State and District rules): in any single 5 week grading period, any class with a D or F puts them on Probation. When on Probation, the coaches have some flexibility in what they can allow.  This is the stage I expect that ds will be in as soon as the next set of grades comes out.

 

After they are on Probation, they are required to get a minimum 2.0 GPA, and not more than one class can be a D or F.  If those requirements are not met in the grading period following Probation, they are Suspended from sports competition and travel, but can still practice after school on their team.

 

And then if it doesn't get turned around in the next grading period, I believe they can no longer participate on a team at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The no longer working even in fun elective courses suggests sliding towards depression or other possible mental health concern -- one sign is lack of interest in activities that were formally of interest.

 

Would a chemical imbalance/mental health be a possible cause of the downward spiraling attitude? Would a thorough check-up and blood-work up be useful?

 

In trying to discern cause of this lack of interest in or unwillingness to, work, a first step might be to eliminate things that are possible contributors:

 

- Is DS not getting enough sleep? (i.e.: needs a darker room, has a shifted teen sleep schedule, needs melatonin supplement, etc.)

- Is DS not getting enough regular aerobic exercise? (raises seratonin levels, aids in good sleep, throws off anxiety/stress)

- Possible food intolerance or some sort of chronic illness thing that could be knocking his emotions and attitudes wonky? (wheat, corn, dairy, sugar, dyes, processed food/chemicals are the biggies)

- Is DS getting addicted to gaming or experimenting with substances (drugs, alcohol, huffing, etc.)?

 

 

 

 

I agree with all this, especially the bolded.

 

I also wonder about the learning disabilities. I know, Pen, you don't think they're the root of this, but could they still be involved? Maybe the workload is harder than he thought, executive functioning comes into play, and he doesn't want to admit he can't do it so he says he won't and doesn't want to... or he doesn't even realize the issue is that he can't do it?

 

I'm sure you've thought of that, but on the random .01% chance that you somehow haven't, I wanted to get it said :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My husband was this kid, but maybe worse. He would show up on test days, get a hundred, then skip many other days and never turn in work. He'd fail the class, of course, but could make it up in summer school in a few short weeks without any homework. Eventually he fell far enough behind in math that he couldn't get A's without studying, but at that point he was 16 and could drop out, get his ged, and start community college. He decided that was too much like high school, and this was just after 9/11, so he joined the army, where he thrived. Later, he went to college on the GI bill, but it was hard because he had a family and job to work around, so he didn't get as much of the best aspects of university life (late night discussions on deep topics, etc) a would have been optimal, and it was hard to fit it in. Still, he graduated with Latin honors.

It's hard to say what would have helped. He kept having adults ask him, "what can we do to help you do this work/make you care/..." He remembers being really annoyed at this. They were adults, he figured, and shouldn't be relying on an obviously depressed and disengaged teen to figure this out. He thinks a meaningful job would have helped (Not flipping burgers for a paycheck, but learning to weld or something). Also, he really wanted to join the military, but this didn't fit what his family expected of their kids, so he didn't know much about military career paths, military academies, etc. If some one had helped him make a plan for West Point, taken him on runs, helped him develop a personal PT schedule, that would likely have motivated. He needed someone to show him a path to manhood. The school counselors were only focused on a path to passing classes so that he could graduate and go to college to take more classes (which, they promised, would be more interesting)

I hope that helps give you some ideas or at least have hope that just because a kid blows off high school, he won't necessarily blow off life. Some kids really want to be adults but need some help knowing how to get there while being given space to make some decisions that matter.

 

 

This resonates as being totally applicable to ds.  

 

Ds has said he would like to get a job. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any job, "meaningful" or not that he could get currently.  Even something like flipping burgers would be hard because we are in a rural area with the nearest burger flipping places too far to realistically get to at this time.  There is a welding class at his school, which he might be able to take next year--but I'm not aware of any of the kids who take that then finding welding jobs while still in high school.  Once ds can drive legally, more job options may be possible--though that would still be tricky due to rural icy roads in winter to get to a city job.  

 

As a track team kid ds obviously runs a lot, and when the Nat Guard came they set up an obstacle course, which ds loved.  He'd probably love basic training.  As with even burger flipping, there are no nearby gyms other than the high school itself, but I think ds might like and be good at a job at a gym if he could get such a thing.  Some career track that involved athletics, not like becoming a pro athlete, but as an athletic trainer, or something along those lines might work for ds.

 

We are not a military family and I don't know about it as a career path.  It would not generally be my top choice, and I am wary of various problems with it, including for example, that our current dog came from a family with both husband and wife having been disabled in Iraq. Nonetheless, I think that for this particular boy, a military route might fit him. I'm not sure if something like West Point would appeal to ds, but I plan to bring it up with him.  If he could get in to such an academy he might  thrive in that sort of environment.  

 

I know that blowing off high school does not necessarily mean blowing off life.  But I also am pretty sure that if he drops out or fails to get a diploma, life is likely to be a lot harder for him.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My parents required a minimum 3.0 GPA in order to take the driver's license test and then to have use of their 3rd car.

 

There was dangled the carrot of a new car as a graduation gift for all A's or higher (not A-) in every academic course every quarter for the full 4 years of high school. I was on track to earn the latter until pre-calculus in 11th.

 

The latter was a big motivator for me, while the former was a motivator for my brothers.

 

 

I wish I could find some motivator like that which would work!

 

Ds is not currently strongly motivated to get an LP or DL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I talked to dh about this, and he wanted to emphasize that the job thing isn't about money, but about being around adults and feeling like he was making a difference. Can he mow the lawns or do other work for elderly or disabled people? Better yet, is there a local handy-man (professional or not) who does such things that your son could work with? Is there a National Guard armory near? He might be allowed to hang out there from time-to-time and learn some basic tactical stuff, if the local commander is okay with it.

Life certainly is harder without a diploma, and it gets harder all the time. Guys like that are only motivated to get a diploma if there is a real reason for it. We think the reasons are obvious, but they really aren't always so clear to a teen. When it dawns on them that there are choices to be made in life, choices that matter, but they are expected to make these certain ones that someone else decided are the "good choices," they might buck against that. I didn't feel the need to rebel against the status quo so much, but my husband sure did. Anything that can help him make the decision his own would help. I know he's not really cooperating for you (dh didn't for his mom at the age), but is there anyone who could talk with him to make a few different "life plans"? Like Okay, you might want to be a soldier, or a ___ or a____. What can you do to get there? Is there anything that's required for all those things (a diploma, hint, hint)? The person should be ready to supply or look for answers of what needs to be done. An unmotivated teen isn't likely to know those things himself. Alternatively, if he has few ideas about what he wants long-term, talk about how helpful it is to have as many open paths as possible. Talk about the choices he has now, and which ones close doors and which ones open them.

Thank you for being as understanding as possible with your son. As an adult, my husband takes responsibility for the choices he made and knows that he wasn't easy to work with. He still wishes, though, that someone had done more than tell him, in a thousand ways, "you've got to do this paperwork so that later you can do more paperwork."

 

This resonates as being totally applicable to ds.  

 

Ds has said he would like to get a job. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any job, "meaningful" or not that he could get currently.  Even something like flipping burgers would be hard because we are in a rural area with the nearest burger flipping places too far to realistically get to at this time.  There is a welding class at his school, which he might be able to take next year--but I'm not aware of any of the kids who take that then finding welding jobs while still in high school.  Once ds can drive legally, more job options may be possible--though that would still be tricky due to rural icy roads in winter to get to a city job.  

 

As a track team kid ds obviously runs a lot, and when the Nat Guard came they set up an obstacle course, which ds loved.  He'd probably love basic training.  As with even burger flipping, there are no nearby gyms other than the high school itself, but I think ds might like and be good at a job at a gym if he could get such a thing.  Some career track that involved athletics, not like becoming a pro athlete, but as an athletic trainer, or something along those lines might work for ds.

 

We are not a military family and I don't know about it as a career path.  It would not generally be my top choice, and I am wary of various problems with it, including for example, that our current dog came from a family with both husband and wife having been disabled in Iraq. Nonetheless, I think that for this particular boy, a military route might fit him. I'm not sure if something like West Point would appeal to ds, but I plan to bring it up with him.  If he could get in to such an academy he might  thrive in that sort of environment.  

 

I know that blowing off high school does not necessarily mean blowing off life.  But I also am pretty sure that if he drops out or fails to get a diploma, life is likely to be a lot harder for him.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a child who refuses to do school (related to mental illness) and I regret letting her homeschool again. Coming home will NOT fix the problems he has. I know it sounds mean but I wish I had left her in school to make the best of it if she could. I don't have any good answers, just wanted to give you that perspective. :(

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, dh's younger brothers were both 2e and, when they refused to go to school so much that the truant officer was showing up at their door, their mom pulled them and "homeschool" them. No education really happened. One got married young, which made him grow up and pull it together, and he's doing well. The other is struggling to find his way, still, but he still has lots of open doors and he'll be fine in a year or two more, I think. But the homeschooling, or lack there of, really didn't help.

 

I have a child who refuses to do school (related to mental illness) and I regret letting her homeschool again. Coming home will NOT fix the problems he has. I know it sounds mean but I wish I had left her in school to make the best of it if she could. I don't have any good answers, just wanted to give you that perspective. :(

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think EF issues and being able to plan are part of it--but not, at this moment, the major part. And also there are issues with him not taking vitamins and supplements like B-vitamins and fish oil that we know help him. And also getting too involved with fragrance products, junk foods, artificial colors, flavors, and preservatives, and sugar, all of which are problems for him ... (I am not providing these, except that we still do have some sugar in the house, but he can buy these himself at school or at a rural country store that he can get himself to...)  

 

And there is certainly a bad spiral that happens, where lack of motivation could be both the cause and the result of various problems.  I am not eager to get into the paying him to study, but my guess is that if I did do that, he would show that he CAN.  If he really Can't, though, that might finally determine that he really Can't.  

 

But, If he does not get with studying very soon, then he truly will be too far behind in math and science to catch up, and then it really will be a matter of Can't.  Right now, he can still catch up (this is based on my looking at what they are doing and a sense of what he is capable of doing).

 

I talked to a Nat. Guard recruitment officer.  Learned that, yes, if ds is interested in that he needs a high school diploma, not a GED. And the better his grades the better.  

 

Even though he is only in 9th, he can tell his guidance counselor that he would like to talk to them and the recruitment officer for his school (not who I had on the phone) will make another visit, and can invite him to go spend a weekend at their training facility in spring or summer to see if he would like it (without any acceptance, sign-up, or needing to have taken the ASVAB exam).

 

 

I agree with all this, especially the bolded.

 

I also wonder about the learning disabilities. I know, Pen, you don't think they're the root of this, but could they still be involved? Maybe the workload is harder than he thought, executive functioning comes into play, and he doesn't want to admit he can't do it so he says he won't and doesn't want to... or he doesn't even realize the issue is that he can't do it?

 

I'm sure you've thought of that, but on the random .01% chance that you somehow haven't, I wanted to get it said :)

 

 

:grouphug:  So sad to hear you're having this issue with DS.

 

 

The no longer working even in fun elective courses suggests sliding towards depression or other possible mental health concern -- one sign is lack of interest in activities that were formally of interest.

 

Would a chemical imbalance/mental health be a possible cause of the downward spiraling attitude? Would a thorough check-up and blood-work up be useful?

 

In trying to discern cause of this lack of interest in or unwillingness to, work, a first step might be to eliminate things that are possible contributors:

 

- Is DS not getting enough sleep? (i.e.: needs a darker room, has a shifted teen sleep schedule, needs melatonin supplement, etc.)

- Is DS not getting enough regular aerobic exercise? (raises seratonin levels, aids in good sleep, throws off anxiety/stress)

- Possible food intolerance or some sort of chronic illness thing that could be knocking his emotions and attitudes wonky? (wheat, corn, dairy, sugar, dyes, processed food/chemicals are the biggies)

- Is DS getting addicted to gaming or experimenting with substances (drugs, alcohol, huffing, etc.)?

 

 

Not trying to go overboard or cause unwarranted panic. Just trying to brainstorm possible causes, which can then make it easier to figure out possible solutions.

 

It may just be typical boy hormones -- that temporary losing of their brains, and also not having a clear purpose or reason for doing school -- i.e., no strong career goal at this stage (very very common!) and so "what's the point" of high school classes -- so no strong internal motivator and reasoning of why it's important to work and keep up grades. If this is the case, then it seems like, as annoying as it is for the parent, a carrot and stick routine might work the best: frequent carrot rewards for the student when doing the school work at a minimum required level and with a reasonable attitude, coupled with a lot of you trudging along behind and poking with the sharp stick to keep the student moving forward.  :zombiechase:

 

 

Hope you get some good responses, and quickly find what works for you and for DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had been assuming you were thinking of him enlisting.

 

If you are thinking of him going to college and then commissioning as an officer, he needs to be a better student. I think like a 3.0 or higher. You would be looking at ROTC (I'm not sure what they're called for other branches or service) recruiting -- a webpage or ROTC recruiter. Getting in to a military academy is very difficult. I don't know the process but it would be like applying for a competitive college. Either way if he commissions he would have a 6-year commitment afterward; but he might be in the National Guard or Reserves at that point and not active duty.

 

I am vague and you would want to look into it, just letting you know they are different things, and also that there are different branches of service too, and so you may want to (longer term) talk to other branches to see which one he is more interested in. You will want to look into it -- I am pretty vague and there are a lot of details.

 

If he ends up talking to the recruiter -- I would hope the recruiter would encourage him to get his drivers license. He would need it in the military. Sure some don't have one but it would be desirable!

 

I graduated high school with a boy who opened a small gym after high school, and he is doing well now. That might be a thought since your area doesn't have one. It could possibly start very small.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had been assuming you were thinking of him enlisting.

 

If you are thinking of him going to college and then commissioning as an officer, he needs to be a better student. I think like a 3.0 or higher. You would be looking at ROTC (I'm not sure what they're called for other branches or service) recruiting -- a webpage or ROTC recruiter. Getting in to a military academy is very difficult. I don't know the process but it would be like applying for a competitive college. Either way if he commissions he would have a 6-year commitment afterward; but he might be in the National Guard or Reserves at that point and not active duty.

 

I am vague and you would want to look into it, just letting you know they are different things, and also that there are different branches of service too, and so you may want to (longer term) talk to other branches to see which one he is more interested in. You will want to look into it -- I am pretty vague and there are a lot of details.

 

If he ends up talking to the recruiter -- I would hope the recruiter would encourage him to get his drivers license. He would need it in the military. Sure some don't have one but it would be desirable!

 

I graduated high school with a boy who opened a small gym after high school, and he is doing well now. That might be a thought since your area doesn't have one. It could possibly start very small.

 

He might conceivably be interested in Coast Guard or another branch.  The only option locally available to him, however, and the only branch of the service that recruits at his school currently, is National Guard.  Potentially that could lead to something else at some point, including that the state U has army ROTC.  It'd be much less competitive than West Point, but would still require him keeping up a more consistently high GPA than he is doing right now.

 

 

The boy you knew opened a gym after high school meaning in the evenings after school or meaning after graduation?  I think you probably mean the latter, but thinking the former made me realize that there is an empty business space that used to be a feed store, that could conceivably be something else, even perhaps a gym.  I don't know what there is enough population to sustain.  More than one try for something there has gone under. But it is an interesting idea that maybe some suitable business could be started even while still in high school.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suggest reading “Parenting with Love and Logic.†He has to learn natural consequences for his actions. What are the natural consequences of him not working harder? This isn’t your fight to fight, it’s his. He may have to repeat a class. Let that sink in. I am struggling with this with a much younger 2e kid who has anger issues and anxiety (as a result or just because I have no idea), but ultimately he does better when the ball is entirely in his court, so to speak.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, when I mentioned West Point, that's not because I think that's the best way or the only way to go. More that, if he prepares for that as a possibility, whether he gets in or not, whether he chooses to go there or not, he'll have prepared himself very well for a large number of additional options., military and otherwise.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I suggest reading “Parenting with Love and Logic.†He has to learn natural consequences for his actions. What are the natural consequences of him not working harder? This isn’t your fight to fight, it’s his. He may have to repeat a class. Let that sink in. I am struggling with this with a much younger 2e kid who has anger issues and anxiety (as a result or just because I have no idea), but ultimately he does better when the ball is entirely in his court, so to speak.

 

 

I've read that.

 

Sometimes that works.  Sometimes that backfires.

 

This may be easier with a much younger child, in some cases.  But it depends on the situation.  I know of someone who took that to an extreme and let a child experience the natural consequences of climbing up to overhead electric lines.

 

I don't think the natural consequences of the current direction would be merely having to repeat one class.  

 

 

Sometimes there are also natural consequences to an adult for not stepping in.  So sometimes a parent needs to consider "what is likely to happen if I leave the ball entirely in junior's court in this situation, and are those consequences that I as parent am willing to accept?"

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

(without any acceptance, sign-up, or needing to have taken the ASVAB exam).

 

 

Speaking of the ASVAB, how about getting him an ASVAB prep book? Obviously he wouldn't be taking it yet, but he'd be able to see what kind of stuff the army tests for (and it's an adaptive test, at least back when DW took it, and she said that they ended up asking her some pretty complicated questions (she says she thinks they asked her some stuff about mitochondria and what-not - stuff she hadn't expected on the test (she didn't realize it was adaptive going in))). 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have zero experience with teen boys but, if you are rural, do you have enough land he could build his own obstacle course? Would he enjoy doing that, and using it? He could think of it as preparing for basic.

 

 

Interesting idea.  I don't know what an obstacle course consists of, but am sure we would have the space, since the one that visited his school was set up in the gym and we have more room than that.  And he might find that fun.  

 

I expect that most of the physical parts of basic would present no troubles for him.

 

A lot of what he has done for fun for years seems to me to be obstacle course-like (running over rough terrain, climbing, jumping over creek, crawling through bramble thickets, hiking.  And his Cross-country running sometimes has things like mud pits to run through or dam walls to ascend. He runs and goes over a fence with heavy bookbag on nearly every morning on his way to bus.

 

A lot of the country kids around here are very athletic just from daily life. Ds is less strong than some for things like tossing hay bales. But is at the upper end for things like agility and running endurance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of the ASVAB, how about getting him an ASVAB prep book? Obviously he wouldn't be taking it yet, but he'd be able to see what kind of stuff the army tests for (and it's an adaptive test, at least back when DW took it, and she said that they ended up asking her some pretty complicated questions (she says she thinks they asked her some stuff about mitochondria and what-not - stuff she hadn't expected on the test (she didn't realize it was adaptive going in))). 

 

 

I was just looking at those on Amazon and ordered a For Dummies one since it was the top best seller and not so expensive.  But do you (anyone reading this) have any particular one to recommend?  How do you pronounce ASVAB, btw?

 

 

 

I don't know if DS knows yet that there is an exam.  And I am not sure if I should mention it, since his current anti-academic stance might make him balk at the whole idea if he knew.  But I guess he should know about it before he  talks to a recruiter so as not to be taken by surprise in an interview situation.

 

I think he wants to get into training and called-up to fight wildfires  ASAP (fighting wildfires is one of the things the Nat Guard does a lot of in our area, and what ds has been most aware of as a real world thing he might do if he gets in).  He isn't thinking about more tests or studying.

 

 

 

 

Probably this deserves a separate thread, or at least separate post, but I am wondering about how ds should prepare for a talk with recruiter, and if it is to be on a known date, what he should wear to school that day?  

 

Before that can happen, when I told ds that the officer I talked with on phone told me to tell ds to tell  his guidance counselor  he wants to meet with the Nat Guard recruiter, Ds says he has no guidance counselor, so far as he knows.  Guidance Counselor is not a listing in the school handbook.

Edited by Pen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

I've read that.

 

Sometimes that works. Sometimes that backfires.

 

This may be easier with a much younger child, in some cases. But it depends on the situation. I know of someone who took that to an extreme and let a child experience the natural consequences of climbing up to overhead electric lines.

 

I don't think the natural consequences of the current direction would be merely having to repeat one class.

 

 

Sometimes there are also natural consequences to an adult for not stepping in. So sometimes a parent needs to consider "what is likely to happen if I leave the ball entirely in junior's court in this situation, and are those consequences that I as parent am willing to accept?"

 

 

 

You asked for advice. Surely you should take what works and leave the rest but your attitude is very much—that’s not going to work with my kid. I certainly didn’t say let him jump off the cliff, but read into it what you will. Stop asking for advice if you don’t really want it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You asked for advice. Surely you should take what works and leave the rest but your attitude is very much—that’s not going to work with my kid. I certainly didn’t say let him jump off the cliff, but read into it what you will. Stop asking for advice if you don’t really want it.

 

 

Sorry if my reply offended you.  Please put me on your "ignore" list.

 

 

I do want advice and suggestions and have already acted on several that I have received in this thread.

 

 

I'm going to explain further, not for you, but for others who might be reading this, since I think my explanation may help others to give more fruitful advice.  And perhaps as well, could help some lurkers or future readers who have a kid more like mine to find some ideas for their own kid.

 

This isn't merely a "not going to work with my kid" situation. Statistically if a kid (in our state, iirc) fails one or more class needed for graduation, particularly in core subjects like English and Math, the tendency is for that to end up leading to dropping out entirely without graduating.  It also carries an increased risk of other problems such as depression and substance abuse, incarceration, poorer health and higher mortality rate.  

 

Coupled with ds gravitating toward the bad-influence boys, this is probably not a good idea.  Statistically it is considered far better (more likely to have long term positive results) to step in and try to intervene before the drop-out stage.  Certain kids might respond well to a tough love, natural consequences approach in this sort of situation, but mine is more likely to be in the more typical group where a couple of failures now will lead to a downhill trajectory.  

 

https://www.edutopia.org/student-dropout-retention-strategies  has some interesting ideas, but also the cartoon picture of a hand reaching out from the waves, and someone throwing a life-ring seems to me to be a better image of what is needed for this sort of situation than the Foster and Cline approach.

 

 

 

It is clear to me that having asked ds if he was serious about saying he was interested in National Guard, and learning that he is serious, is opening up what appears to be a far more fruitful (and with some signs of motivation) direction, as he thinks about what he might do--and perhaps realizes that even though military is not my thing, and not something I know much about, at least something I am willing to consider giving my parental consent to, and to help him figure out.  Even if he doesn't end up doing that, talking about something that he considers a goal, seems to be a big improvement over where we were 3 days ago.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe your DS could shadow some jobs right now? Are there some men in your community who could be mentors to help encourage him in manly things, and to persevere now, while he still doesn't know exactly what he wants, but can say it in a waya that he can hear now (when he can't hear it from a parent): building a foundation now, even if he doesn't know what he wants to do, will keep more doors open for his future, and more quickly help him achieve his goal LATER when he DOES get it figured out.

 

 

An older male mentor could also help him with the physical training. It's so much easier to do it when you have a coach or mentor!

 

I'm so sorry I don't seem to be coming up with any helpful ideas. Just mostly trying to empathize. Wishing you and DS the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was just looking at those on Amazon and ordered a For Dummies one since it was the top best seller and not so expensive.  But do you (anyone reading this) have any particular one to recommend?  How do you pronounce ASVAB, btw?

 

 

Ass-fab (as-in "fabulous ass"). Okay, I don't do that on purpose, but with my Dutch accent my V's are somewhere between a V and an F, and it's funny (not that I say that word much). Seriously though, just using phonics: AS-vab (short A's), or at least that's how DW pronounces it, and she was in the army. 

 

Our library has a few test prep books for that. If yours doesn't, you might even be able to ILL them. Beyond that, no clue - I'm pretty sure DW didn't use one before taking the test, since, like I said, she didn't know it was adaptive and was wondering why the questions got so crazy hard and why it was taking forever. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Btw, you don't have to get the hardest questions on the ASVAB right in order to get in - but if you want to do something specific, like be a mechanic or a medic or w/e, it would be good to score high on related parts of the ASVAB. Or, at least that's my understanding. And you do have to answer some basic stuff correctly - but I don't know where the cut-off is.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there are job/technical certification your son can pursue concurrently? For example my school district sponsor the java certification course at the adult education center for their high school students (as in course fees are waived if the student is a current high school student). I had similar age neighbors in gang families growing up and to them VoTech and associate degrees were a blessing. They were all very bright guys who lost interest in the to them neverending academics and having a certification means they could work as a technician instead of a school kid. It’s a ego thing as well as a path forward thing, they were bored and listless (and luckily didn’t join their dads’ gangs). To them certification = technician, assoc degree = engineering technician, degree = engineer, any higher = engineering supervisor (substitute accordingly for accountancy as some went for bookkeeping certification as a first step)

 

I was just looking at those on Amazon and ordered a For Dummies one since it was the top best seller and not so expensive. But do you (anyone reading this) have any particular one to recommend?

Link to PDFs put up by schools. The first link is to a 3rd edition for dummies

http://internet.savannah.chatham.k12.ga.us/schools/jhs/clubs/NJROTC/Shared%20Documents/Academics/ASVAB/asvab-4-dummiez-edition3.pdf

http://www.sjcsguidance.com/ASVABPowerPractice.pdf

 

Before that can happen, when I told ds that the officer I talked with on phone told me to tell ds to tell his guidance counselor he wants to meet with the Nat Guard recruiter, Ds says he has no guidance counselor, so far as he knows. Guidance Counselor is not a listing in the school handbook.

For guidance counselor, if none is listed in the school staff directory then check with the vice-principal. In my school district the VP is the person to go to if the child doesn’t have a guidance counselor assigned yet or have difficulties/conflicts with the guidance counselor.

 

My nephew is an Air Force technician and loves his job maintaining/repairing aircrafts. He is usually based in Arizona when he is in the states. He has an associate degree in mechanical engineering.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) oversees all of the different organizations that work on wildland forest fires -- which includes the National Guard, and US Forest Service, as well as several other organizations. The NWCG sets the standards and requirements for being hired/working on forest fires, so even if coming to the job through National Guard, a person needs to meet these standards.

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  This, including the personal parts not quoted, does help a lot.

 

My ds did a Youth Corps camp 2 summers ago, which was a very mild intro to things similar to what you describe your ds doing.  For this coming summer, he may apply for a little more intense a program for a full month. (This would have been easier if he were still homeschooling and could apply for the spring session that tends to be easier to get into.)

 

My ds does not, clearly, have the standards met needed to do  wildfire fighting at this time. But then, he is only 15.  He also does not currently weigh in at the National Guard minimum for his height, but I would hope that if he still wants to be in the Nat Guard, that he would reach that weight by age 17 or 18 without deliberately trying to make himself fatter.  He's been working out in his school weight-room and developing more muscle.

 

 

 

The newest wrinkle is that ds says he does want to attend a weekend training as the recruiter officer I spoke to on phone said would be possible, but ds does not want to talk to anyone--not to whomever might be considered his "guidance counselor," and not to a Nat Guard recruitment officer.   He says he would like it set up by me for him like the Youth Corps camp was.  My impression is that they would want him to be more active in setting this up for himself, and that feeling shy to do so (or whatever is going on as to why ds does not want to, which he will not talk about) would not be a positive thing for what might essentially be a job interview in a job/career area that takes some bravery.   -- But maybe I am wrong about that?  Maybe instead of asking if the recruiter can visit him at his school, we could go to the recruitment office together?

 

At a job fair he went to earlier this school year, ds had a mock interview and was given compliments on good eye contact and hand shake, but told he should say more about himself and why he would be good for the job when having real interviews in future.  Otherwise he has not had any interview experience.

 

 

 

In terms of community men and jobs or shadowing, I am thinking to get in touch with the contractor ds helped to do the drywall repair a couple of years ago.  In that case, I also want to see if that contractor can help me with some repairs and things needed at my home.  And maybe for those or other things ds could learn, help or shadow.  

 

We also have forest service and fish and wildlife department offices not terribly far away, which might have some possibilities for shadowing.

 

And I think it would be possible for ds to shadow someone doing something with the rural fire department too, perhaps.  A neighbor who we don't know well, but probably well enough to ask, is one of the volunteer firefighters, as is the husband of one of ds's former teachers.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Is there are job/technical certification your son can pursue concurrently? For example my school district sponsor the java certification course at the adult education center for their high school students (as in course fees are waived if the student is a current high school student). I had similar age neighbors in gang families growing up and to them VoTech and associate degrees were a blessing. They were all very bright guys who lost interest in the to them neverending academics and having a certification means they could work as a technician instead of a school kid. It’s a ego thing as well as a path forward thing, they were bored and listless (and luckily didn’t join their dads’ gangs). To them certification = technician, assoc degree = engineering technician, degree = engineer, any higher = engineering supervisor (substitute accordingly for accountancy as some went for bookkeeping certification as a first step)

 

2) Link to PDFs put up by schools. The first link is to a 3rd edition for dummies

http://internet.savannah.chatham.k12.ga.us/schools/jhs/clubs/NJROTC/Shared%20Documents/Academics/ASVAB/asvab-4-dummiez-edition3.pdf

http://www.sjcsguidance.com/ASVABPowerPractice.pdf

 

3) For guidance counselor, if none is listed in the school staff directory then check with the vice-principal. In my school district the VP is the person to go to if the child doesn’t have a guidance counselor assigned yet or have difficulties/conflicts with the guidance counselor.

 

4) My nephew is an Air Force technician and loves his job maintaining/repairing aircrafts. He is usually based in Arizona when he is in the states. He has an associate degree in mechanical engineering.

 

 

1) No. Unfortunately. Something like that would be a great help!  There was an attempt to get "vocational education" back into our state high schools with a citizen initiated ballot measure a few years ago. But I guess it did not get on ballot or it if did, did not pass.

 

2) Thank you.

 

3) No vice-principal.  I could call the principal though.  The principal is who went over course selections with the students, so maybe she is considered the guidance counselor also.

Or maybe it would be better if I got back in touch with the N.G. recruiting office itself directly.  I read an online FAQs for parents and it seems that helping kids grow self-confidence is one of the things they think they can provide. So maybe calling and saying my 15 yo would like to be able to attend one of their weekends as previously suggested (he has to be 16 to do that, but will be in a few months), would be okay.

 

4) Cool!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a nurse who worked with teens for a long time, and I don't know you or your ds, so don't take this personally, but do you suspect substance abuse? I would drug test him if he were my son.

 

 

Unless you have a darn good reason to think the kid is on drugs, I wouldn't, since accusing them of being on drugs can backfire... the teen might think that if everybody thinks he's on drugs anyway, he might as well be on drugs. That's what happened to DW (obviously, it was a stupid choice, but I'm just saying - before she was accused of being on drugs, she wasn't using... she started after her therapist told her parents that she thought she was on drugs). 

Edited by luuknam
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suggest reading “Parenting with Love and Logic.†He has to learn natural consequences for his actions. What are the natural consequences of him not working harder? This isn’t your fight to fight, it’s his. He may have to repeat a class. Let that sink in. I am struggling with this with a much younger 2e kid who has anger issues and anxiety (as a result or just because I have no idea), but ultimately he does better when the ball is entirely in his court, so to speak.

With all due respect, you are dealing with a 9 yr old. This may work with some teens, too, especially if they don't have significant LDs/mental health issues, but I have also seen this approach fail quite spectacularly with several teens I know. Pen's point in her response was that parents who choose the sink-or-swim approach with teens need to have a really clear understanding of how bad "sinking" can be for that particular child, and be prepared to face the repercussions of that. Because it can be a hell of a lot worse than just failing a class or two — especially for kids who are dealing with LDs and mental health issues like anxiety and depression (which can often look more like anger than sadness in males).

 

You asked for advice. Surely you should take what works and leave the rest but your attitude is very much—that’s not going to work with my kid. I certainly didn’t say let him jump off the cliff, but read into it what you will. Stop asking for advice if you don’t really want it.

This seems unnecessarily rude and snippy. The fact that, having actually read the recommended book, she doesn't believe that this particular approach will work with her particular child in their current particular circumstances, doesn't mean she doesn't want any advice from anyone. Geez.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pen, I'm sorry you're dealing with this because I know how much it feels like being between a rock and a hard place — with a very steep drop between them. 

 

IMO, being a (1) hormonal teen (2) boy with (3) a high IQ and (4) LDs in a (5) public school is really hard. Each of those things individually can be tough, multiples are worse, and when you combine five of those in one kid, it's just much harder than many people understand. It's not just hard in a "gee, this isn't much fun" way, its more like "I feel like a trapped animal that would rather chew my leg off than deal with this." They are often bored out of their minds with the level of content while simultaneously struggling with the volume of work and the executive function skills needed to juggle it all. Teen brains are not really programmed for delayed gratification and the idea that if they just spend the next several years doing mind-numbingly boring work that feels utterly pointless to them, the "prize" is four more years of similar work, after which they may finally get the chance to be a productive, working adult, is just not very motivating to a lot of kids. 

 

If, after your DS speaks to a recruiter, he decides that the National Guard is something he does want to pursue, I'd find out what the Guard's minimum graduation requirements are (for whatever level or position he eventually wants) and tailor his HS schedule to that. Does the HS allow "work-study" type credits? Could he find volunteer jobs that could be packaged as a HS credit? Is DE an option? Would he be willing to do a summer school class or two if it meant graduating earlier? (I was bored out of my mind in HS and graduated at 16 because I literally didn't think I could survive 4 years of it. When my guidance counselor tried to dissuade me, on the grounds that someday I would look back and realize that high school was "the best years of my life," I told her that if I believed that to be true I'd be jumping off the nearest bridge instead of trying to graduate early.)

 

For your DS, high school is basically the equivalent of an adult being forced to work at Walmart for several years without pay — tedious, boring, and with no payoff. Hopefully the recruiter can provide some motivation, but even that would require a certain amount of delayed gratification. I would honestly consider paying him for good grades, since he has explicitly stated that that would motivate him. He wants a job and there are no (paying) jobs nearby, so make HS his "job." 

 

Whatever you do, I would prioritize your relationship with him. Not in the sense of giving him whatever he wants so he never gets mad at you, but in the sense of making sure he knows that you are on the same team and that you will do as much as you can to help him set and reach goals that work for him.

 

Hang in there  :grouphug:

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought: is it possible at all for him to compress his schedule and graduate early? Would high school look more survivable if he could do it in 3 years by only taking the credits he needs and doing some summer school? Our district has both online classes and a special campus (intended for former dropouts, but can sometimes be used to just finish required coursework in an efficient way), but we are a big district, and I don't know if that's available in many places.

Trying to do that might add stress or might be impossible for him, I don't know, but if he's just feeling like he's trapped forever, giving him a way to work towards getting out early might help.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a nurse who worked with teens for a long time, and I don't know you or your ds, so don't take this personally, but do you suspect substance abuse? I would drug test him if he were my son.

 

 

I do not suspect illegal substance abuse (or even mild use) at this time.  

 

 

 

However, I am certainly concerned that if he falls through the cracks, gets depressed, or similar, and / or drops out of school, that that will be a huge risk.  And I am concerned about the bad-influence friends.  I do not know what the one who was in juvenile hall was in juvenile hall for.  A couple do have some marijuana issues that I know about, but were apparently suspended and are now staying clean.

 

 

Drug concerns are one of the reasons I am not willing to take the sink or swim approach and let ds do what he likes and take the consequences.

 

Ds is overusing sugar and junk food.  And this isn't just a pet peeve of mine against them, as ds is particularly susceptible to these.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Corraleno and xahm, I don't know if he would be interested in graduating earlier, but I'll ask him.

 

He currently hates the academic school work and even the non-academic classes, other than PE which he likes moderately well.  But he still loves sports, school dances, social contact and other ECs.  So I'm not sure that he actually wants to leave early, so much as he'd like to be able to have the fun parts and not to have to do the tedious parts.

 

I'm not sure what alternatives exist to regular classes in terms of work-study or anything like that. Because it is such a small school, what is offered there is fairly limited.  eta: We just have "English 9" for example, while a city high school I know has a class that combines English with activities like rock climbing--an approach that would be more likely to appeal to ds. Though he might then do the rock-climbing and blow off the English part.

 

They can do DE, or take online classes, but have to show that they have exhausted what is available at the school, or some other convincing reason for it.  And last year, apparently all or nearly all the kids who took online classes failed (or withdrew from) them, because for many I guess there is a self-motivation problem, even if they are advanced and have finished with the top levels the school offers. DE would be very difficult prior to such a time that DS could drive, and even then can be a problem both in terms of icy roads and trying to work out a schedule to fit in taking classes in the city (about an hour drive each way, if the class is not offered online). eta: Mostly only seniors seem to be taking DE classes in the city.  

 

ETA: DS does have a College Now (a class that could get college credit, offered at the high school) art class, and may be getting a B in that, but is not actually engaged in it, though is less negative about it than some of his classes, and sometimes comes home telling me something interesting he did learn in it.  He can learn CAD from that teacher as part of that class, and I've been trying to encourage him to do that, so far without success.  The kids working on CAD include, according to the teacher, some of the better A students, and more emotionally positive-influence type kids, who his teachers think ds "should" be hanging with, not the kids he is currently emulating.  She said she was going to try to steer ds their way. I don't know how that is going.

 

DS is currently taking a basic college prep group of classes (not elite college prep). If he is determined not to go to college he would not need to do that, but he might do worse not better with classes that were even less interesting and had even more busy work.  

 

Yes. That sense of pointlessness and irrelevance is definitely something that ds is complaining about. And trying to connect the now requirements with some future possible more interesting career is not getting through to him in a meaningful way.

 

The working at Walmart for no pay is an interesting analogy.  I'm sort of afraid to go the pay for study time, or for grades, route for fear of it harming ...   I dunno ... long term or intrinsic motivation.  But really, as there seems to be no intrinsic motivation currently, maybe it is worth a shot.  I think I will do some research and see what I can find on it that might help me decide if it is likely to help or hurt.

 

eta: if anyone knows or can steer me toward anything like that, pro or con, I'm interested.

 

eta: Nat Guard wants a diploma and the best grades and classes possible, the recruiter on phone told me.  Our state's requirements for a diploma leave relatively little wiggle room, especially if there are some study halls being taken. About the only area that has a very low requirement is foreign language, but ds actually wants to take 4 years of that, he thinks, so with that by his own choice, 4 years required English, PE, health, government, a class in careers exploration, 3 years required math minimum, 3 years science, etc., it means a fairly full day of the mostly tedious and boring for 4 years.

 

Thank you for your supportiveness!

 

 

Pen, I'm sorry you're dealing with this because I know how much it feels like being between a rock and a hard place — with a very steep drop between them. 
 
IMO, being a (1) hormonal teen (2) boy with (3) a high IQ and (4) LDs in a (5) public school is really hard. Each of those things individually can be tough, multiples are worse, and when you combine five of those in one kid, it's just much harder than many people understand. It's not just hard in a "gee, this isn't much fun" way, its more like "I feel like a trapped animal that would rather chew my leg off than deal with this." They are often bored out of their minds with the level of content while simultaneously struggling with the volume of work and the executive function skills needed to juggle it all. Teen brains are not really programmed for delayed gratification and the idea that if they just spend the next several years doing mind-numbingly boring work that feels utterly pointless to them, the "prize" is four more years of similar work, after which they may finally get the chance to be a productive, working adult, is just not very motivating to a lot of kids. 
 
If, after your DS speaks to a recruiter, he decides that the National Guard is something he does want to pursue, I'd find out what the Guard's minimum graduation requirements are (for whatever level or position he eventually wants) and tailor his HS schedule to that. Does the HS allow "work-study" type credits? Could he find volunteer jobs that could be packaged as a HS credit? Is DE an option? Would he be willing to do a summer school class or two if it meant graduating earlier? (I was bored out of my mind in HS and graduated at 16 because I literally didn't think I could survive 4 years of it. When my guidance counselor tried to dissuade me, on the grounds that someday I would look back and realize that high school was "the best years of my life," I told her that if I believed that to be true I'd be jumping off the nearest bridge instead of trying to graduate early.)
 
For your DS, high school is basically the equivalent of an adult being forced to work at Walmart for several years without pay — tedious, boring, and with no payoff. Hopefully the recruiter can provide some motivation, but even that would require a certain amount of delayed gratification. I would honestly consider paying him for good grades, since he has explicitly stated that that would motivate him. He wants a job and there are no (paying) jobs nearby, so make HS his "job." 
 
Whatever you do, I would prioritize your relationship with him. Not in the sense of giving him whatever he wants so he never gets mad at you, but in the sense of making sure he knows that you are on the same team and that you will do as much as you can to help him set and reach goals that work for him.
 
Hang in there  :grouphug:

 

 

Another thought: is it possible at all for him to compress his schedule and graduate early? Would high school look more survivable if he could do it in 3 years by only taking the credits he needs and doing some summer school? Our district has both online classes and a special campus (intended for former dropouts, but can sometimes be used to just finish required coursework in an efficient way), but we are a big district, and I don't know if that's available in many places.

Trying to do that might add stress or might be impossible for him, I don't know, but if he's just feeling like he's trapped forever, giving him a way to work towards getting out early might help.

 

Edited by Pen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe your DS could shadow some jobs right now? Are there some men in your community who could be mentors to help encourage him in manly things, and to persevere now, while he still doesn't know exactly what he wants, but can say it in a waya that he can hear now (when he can't hear it from a parent): building a foundation now, even if he doesn't know what he wants to do, will keep more doors open for his future, and more quickly help him achieve his goal LATER when he DOES get it figured out.

 

 

An older male mentor could also help him with the physical training. It's so much easier to do it when you have a coach or mentor!

 

I'm so sorry I don't seem to be coming up with any helpful ideas. Just mostly trying to empathize. Wishing you and DS the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Via the Youth Corps group ds camped with, I learned that there is a paid internship available near us, having to do with native plant restoration and sensitive species propagation, that ds does not qualify for (applicant needs to have already had biology minimum--botany and/or environmental science plusses, a driver's license, and a month of back-country work--none of which ds has). But it sounds like the contact for it may be worth talking to as a possible mentor and for possible community service hours.  DS says if he can help out with this project as a volunteer and get some community service hours, he would like that. The contact person is with Army Corps of Engineers.

 

Based on what you know or perhaps what your son has done with similar groups, do you have any suggestions for me in contacting this person?  How to present the situation?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not suspect illegal substance abuse (or even mild use) at this time.

 

 

 

However, I am certainly concerned that if he falls through the cracks, gets depressed, or similar, and / or drops out of school, that that will be a huge risk. And I am concerned about the bad-influence friends. I do not know what the one who was in juvenile hall was in juvenile hall for. A couple do have some marijuana issues that I know about, but were apparently suspended and are now staying clean.

 

 

Drug concerns are one of the reasons I am not willing to take the sink or swim approach and let ds do what he likes and take the consequences.

 

Ds is overusing sugar and junk food. And this isn't just a pet peeve of mine against them, as ds is particularly susceptible to these.

Good, and you are so smart to be on top of it.

 

I was wondering if there was any volunteering opportunities available? My son for example likes the sea, so as a teen he volunteered and sometimes organized on the beach cleanups, sea turtle nest spotting and marking, assisting the turtles after hatching to get to the sea (his favorite :) ) It all gave him confidence and a feeling of accomplishment, as was discussed upthread. Fifteen is so hard for a boy, but maybe even harder for the parents. :/

 

My Dd was also very susceptible to dyes and sugar. (She's 29 now). Trix cereal and the like would send her into a tailspin; she has ADHD.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Freakonomics movie (I think Netflix still has it) has some about paying high school students for grades. Long story short: it works, if the incentive is big enough and seems attainable to the student (if the student thinks there's no way they can get it, then they're obviously not going to try, no matter how big the incentive is). Also, if you only incentivize getting a C, then the student has no reason to try to get a B. And if you give a bigger incentive for getting a B, then you'd want to make sure that you're not incentivizing the kid to get a B in one thing and an F in something else instead of two Cs. So, anyway, it's complicated. 

 

I'm a little unclear on how this came up though - if my kid refused to do work an then told me that he'll only do it if I pay him, I'd be very uninclined to pay. Maybe that's irrational, but while I'm not against paying kids to do stuff, I don't want to be blackmailed into paying. Which is why I hadn't commented on it before you asked about it more in #41. And yes, it can reduce intrinsic motivation... if there is intrinsic motivation. Which there apparently isn't, so, that's not really a concern, imo. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Via the Youth Corps group ds camped with, I learned that there is a paid internship available near us, having to do with native plant restoration and sensitive species propagation, that ds does not qualify for (applicant needs to have already had biology minimum--botany and/or environmental science plusses, a driver's license, and a month of back-country work--none of which ds has). But it sounds like the contact for it may be worth talking to as a possible mentor and for possible community service hours.  DS says if he can help out with this project as a volunteer and get some community service hours, he would like that. The contact person is with Army Corps of Engineers.

 

Based on what you know or perhaps what your son has done with similar groups, do you have any suggestions for me in contacting this person?  How to present the situation?

 

Okay, I just asked DS for his input on the situation and contacting this person. He gave me permission to post his background and his response. Background: DS worked with an AmeriCorps environmental partner program of (ACE) for 9 months, which became the stepping stone experience to DS becoming a wildland firefighter this year.

 

First, DS says he totally gets the "not seeing a point to working on seemingly irrelevant" classes in high school. He says that he thinks the hardest thing for anyone to learn is the value of delayed gratification -- work hard now on something that seems unrelated in order to get the reward you want later on -- a reward that is not in sight or in your hand now, but that comes months (or even years) later.

 

DS says that is great to initiate contact with this group, and that it is great to explain that DS is under 16 and is highly interested in volunteering. He said that Pen's DS needs to be flexible, show eagerness, show responsibility.

 

He says the group he was with (ACE) welcomed volunteers and were very willing to work with you if you wanted to volunteer. They still may be very willing to work with Pen's DS -- offer them as many options as you can to make it as easy as possible for them to say "yes" -- like, Pen is willing to commit to drive DS to all scheduled events since DS doesn't have a license; or Pen's DS is willing to commit to two Saturdays a month, doing 8- to 10-hour shifts, or....

 

However, the other thing DS said is just because they will likely to be willing to work with you, doesn't mean they don't owe you anything. DS said it was very important to remember as a volunteer that the group is doing YOU a favor by trying to work around your constraints (in this particular case, that Pen's DS does not have the required coursework or experience, or is old enough to have a driver's license). 

 

So it's really important for Pen's DS to take the initiative and as soon as possible, take the reins on this and take ownership -- show them that you really are interested (that it's not just mom (Pen) who is interested). These kinds of programs [as well as things like National Guard and wildland firefighting], need people who can follow orders, but who can also step up and take responsibility for getting the job done.

 

 

A second thing that my DS recommended is that Pen's DS look in to applying to the Youth Conservation Corps. That would give DS a reward that is closer to the time of the work (the summer immediately following the school year of keeping up the grades), and it would give DS some great experience that would help him for possible future career paths, not to mention some great physical work and responsibility, plus earning $$.

 

Youth Conservation Corps

For 15-18 year old students. Residential program (meaning the student travels to the location and lives on-site for the duration of the program). Work 40 hours a week in an 8-10 week summer program in a national park, forest, wildlife refuge, or fish hatchery, earning minimum wage. Projects include activities such as trail building, maintaining fences, campground clean-up, environmental teaching, stream restoration, historic building preservation, etc.

 

______________________

 

Back to me (Lori D.) and my thoughts: I know you're in a rural area, so this might not be an option, but what about seeing if there is a junior military cadet program within 90 minutes of you, that you could get DS to once a week? Civil Air Patrol has been very popular with teens in our local homeschool group. In some areas (not ours), there is even the possibility of learning to fly and getting a pilot's license through the program. I also know of several local homeschoolers who did Sea Cadets, even though we live in a very landlocked area, and as a result of their participation, they got to travel (all expenses paid) to do some super-cool summer programs.

 

Sea Cadets (ages 13-17) -- US Navy Junior Cadet program

Junior Civil Air Patrol (ages 12-18) -- US Air Force Auxiliary

Army Cadets ( ages 12-18)-- US Army Cadet program

Young Marines (ages 8 through high school) -- US Marine Cadet program

Junior Air Force ROTC and High School Air Force ROTC scholarships

Route for going to college and becoming an Air Force officer. Provides college scholarships for those with a GPA of 3.0 or higher and an SAT of 1180 or ACT of 26 or higher, plus physical fitness requirements.

 

 

Totally unrelated to your DS's career interests, but what about involvement in something like Model UN, YMCA Youth & Gov't, or Mock Trial? Neither of our DSs had the least interest in government, politics, or in becoming lawyers, but LOVED doing Youth & Gov't -- and asked to continue each year of high school. It's the kind of activity that if your DS really enjoys it, that it might encourage more motivation in the academics -- or at least be used as a carrot, that to participate, need to keep the grades up to a certain minimum. Just a thought!

Edited by Lori D.
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

NOT that I think it will go there... But, in case things really go south, here's a possible para-military option:

 

National Guard Youth Foundation is a program for high school drop-outs, ages 16-18, with the potential to finish earning the high school diploma, depending on the state program, and how many credits the student has going in to the program.

 

"ChalleNGe is a residential program that incorporates a highly structured quasi-military format emphasizing self-discipline, personal responsibility, and positive motivation. Students, who are referred to as cadets while at the program, must meet military grooming standards, wear military-type uniforms issued by the program, and observe standard military customs and courtesies. Each class involves a 3-phase program that begins with a two-week Acclimation Phase where the goal is to identify those students that have the desire and discipline to complete the program. Students who successfully complete the Acclimation Phase enter the 20-week ChalleNGe phase where the emphasis is on the “Eight Core Component†curriculum. Cadets must show improvement in each component. 

 

Eight Core Components:

• Academic Excellence

• Leadership and Followership

• Life Coping Skills

• Job Skills

• Service to the Community

• Responsible Citizenship

• Health and Hygiene

• Physical Fitness

 

After completing the Challenge phase, students begin a 52-week Post-Residential phase where each student works with an adult role model in a one-on-one mentoring relationship. The adult mentor provides the student advice, guidance, and support to help him/her continue the positive direction set forth during the residential phase of the program. 

 

There are no military obligations or expectations for the cadets. The National Guard Youth ChalleNGe Program is not a juvenile detention center; it is not a drug or alcohol treatment center; it is not a professional childcare service; and it is not a hospital, medical, or dental clinic. The National Guard Youth ChalleNGe Programs are approved institutions with credentialed teaching staff and trained professional support staff supporting the educational goals and priorities of the Governor and the citizens of each program state."

Edited by Lori D.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With all due respect, you are dealing with a 9 yr old. This may work with some teens, too, especially if they don't have significant LDs/mental health issues, but I have also seen this approach fail quite spectacularly with several teens I know. Pen's point in her response was that parents who choose the sink-or-swim approach with teens need to have a really clear understanding of how bad "sinking" can be for that particular child, and be prepared to face the repercussions of that. Because it can be a hell of a lot worse than just failing a class or two — especially for kids who are dealing with LDs and mental health issues like anxiety and depression (which can often look more like anger than sadness in males).

 

 

This seems unnecessarily rude and snippy. The fact that, having actually read the recommended book, she doesn't believe that this particular approach will work with her particular child in their current particular circumstances, doesn't mean she doesn't want any advice from anyone. Geez.

He’s not 9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have him set up his weekend with the National Guard guy. Or I would let him not go. That is what I would think with my son, at least, but I know my son would probably end up calling, or else regret missing it and then call the next time.

 

I do think you know your son, too, but if you take over too much it makes it yours and not his. Even if he misses something that would be a good opportunity for him, for my son it would be worth it for him to have buy-in the next time.

 

This has been really hard for me but I have seen that the more involved I am the less ownership he takes, so I have to be aware that he is like that.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, National Guard will still be around when your son is a Sophomore, Junior, or Senior. It's not going anywhere. It can wait until your son can show some more initiative on it. It won't hurt anything.

 

It wouldn't keep him from doing other things that sound like a good idea :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, National Guard will still be around when your son is a Sophomore, Junior, or Senior. It's not going anywhere. It can wait until your son can show some more initiative on it. It won't hurt anything.

 

It wouldn't keep him from doing other things that sound like a good idea :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...