Apprenticeship Model (vs College for everyone)

[bluebonnetgirl]

Wish we had this model here in the USA:

 

http://asiasociety.org/global-cities-education-network/apprenticeship-model-switzerland

[bluebonnetgirl]

More on this model:

 

 

 

Love this.  Wish I could enroll my 15 year old right now in something like this.

[klmama]

My high school had two diploma tracks: academic and vocational. They still do that now and have a huge vocational building. I guess it's not that common, though.

 

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[Mama Geek]

http://www.as.edu

 

If you are interested in apprenticeship schools this one is a good one.  It feeds into the shipyard that builds aircraft carriers and submarines.  It is something you take after high school though and involves working while taking the classes.

[rdj2027]

The (government) public shipyards all offer apprenticeships in various sorts of technical fields.  Larger companies (Siemens, Toyota...) also do.

 

I did an apprenticeship with a large bank (though it was a long time ago in another country).  I could apply much of what I learned in my econ classes in college here in the US.  Unfortunately, in the US they are often viewed as an option for low achieving students.  They are not an easy way out, just much more applied and on the job than a college degree.  In Germany it is not uncommon to first do an apprenticeship and then go to college.

Edited December 7, 2017 by rdj2027

[Bluegoat]

That's what we used to have here.

 

Now kids that are likely to go into trades have sort of a watered down university prep course, and really crappy vocational programs, often because of liability issues that make them impossibly expensive for the schools.

 

I can't see how this does anyone any favours - the kids were better off when they could apply to the trade school at grade 10.

[OnMyOwn]

While there are vocational tech schools here, the big problem, imo, is the stigma that is attached with not earning a degree.

Edited December 8, 2017 by OnMyOwn

[Library Momma]

We have that here.  There are numerous vocational high school opportunities, offering everything from culinary, cosmetology, electrical, HVAC, pluming and automotive to agriculture and even maritime sciences.  Some students graduating these schools continue on to college but most take advantage of the apprenticeships and job placement assistance to continue on their career path.  In particular many students looking to continue on to college and then veterinary school attend one of the the vo-ag high schools.

 

The downside is that students need to make this decision by the end of 8th grade.  You can transfer in later on in high school, but it can put you behind or cause you to miss out on some opportunities.  When I was a kid in the 80's I think many students weren't really given a choice and were steered towards attending a vocational high school.  It led people to believe these  schools were only for underachieving students.  Now it is quite a big decision and the power has been given to the students.  There are so many high school choices and students are just looking for the best fit.

[bluebonnetgirl]

I like that this this model in the video is not a typical vocational school model - instead it offers real world experience in actual businesses that train the high schoolers themselves.   IMO, colleges and degrees for a lot of people are wasteful of time and money, and many colleges do not produce what businesses need.  This is why the model of the business training the students themselves is the solution.  And the sooner the better for many  For a lot of young adults, spending 4-8 years in college and a racking up a whole lot of debt is wasteful, time consuming, and life altering in a bad way.  So many young adults with degrees are having to live with their parents because they are saddled with debt and do not have the real tangible skills to offer businesses and are underemployed.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bluebonnetgirl

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My high school had two diploma tracks: academic and vocational. They still do that now and have a huge vocational building. I guess it's not that common, though.

 

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We have a friend who is in this program.

 

There is also an apprenticeship program at the Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard, which works with the Honolulu Community College.  http://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Shipyards/PHNS-IMF/Careers/Apprenticeship/

 

We have a second friend who has done a metalworking apprenticeship program at the community college, but his apprentice work is through a different company rather than the shipyard.  I'm quite impressed with where he is and what he's doing.  My most academic kid calls this friend "Competent Man" because there doesn't seem to be any task he can't figure out how to do.  

 

 

[side note.  My older kids did some of their dual enrollment on the CC campus with lots of vocational and apprenticeship offerings.  DS2 was especially pleased to be in that environment, because he said there was always something going on and productive work happening.  DS2 is a student at a very academic university, but he still thinks that CC is a cool place.]

[Bluegoat]

I like that this this model in the video is not a typical vocational school model - instead it offers real world experience in actual businesses that train the high schoolers themselves.   IMO, colleges and degrees for a lot of people are wasteful of time and money, and many colleges do not produce what businesses need.  This is why the model of the business training the students themselves is the solution.  And the sooner the better for many  For a lot of young adults, spending 4-8 years in college and a racking up a whole lot of debt is wasteful, time consuming, and life altering in a bad way.  So many young adults with degrees are having to live with their parents because they are saddled with debt and do not have the real tangible skills to offer businesses and are underemployed.

 

A lot of what passes for higher education now is really vocational and job training, where the employers have passed off all the cost and risk to the individual.

[Targhee]

A lot of what passes for higher education now is really vocational and job training, where the employers have passed off all the cost and risk to the individual.

Agreed!

[Old School]

After working as an electrical Superintendent for over 30 years I can say with personal experience that in my field one can easily make $150,000 or more per year. Some may call he trades a stigma but I found some young men who realized they could be very successful as an electrician because they were in the minority and that really intelligent tradesmen are in great demand globally. The Swiss realize the tremendous value of hands on early training in the vocations. They don’t let possible litigation stop their wonderful way of teaching. I grew up under a system just like the Swiss. I was exposed as early as 4 years old and throughout my young life before 18 many different real world skills as my parents and grandparents owned their own construction businesses. Was this early education valuable? Absolutely. I was light years ahead of the herd. Within 18 months of entering the electrical trade I was a journeyman electrician running work as a Superintendent. My value or hourly wage tripled within my first three years because I was trained early in life.

 

I was also taught about investing money and money management at an early age so the money I made I invested.

 

The Swiss have a great understanding of how to teach. We are beginning to realize this more.

[Frances]

While there are vocational tech schools here, the big problem, imo, is the stigma that is attached with not earning a degree.

I don't see that where I live or work at all. I live in a very well-educated neighborhood with lots of doctors and professors and work with the most educated group at my fairly large (1k) employer. I can't think of a single person I know who looks down on those who choose blue collar professions. My husband and I, with three graduate degrees between us, would have been very happy had our son chosen to go the votech route. My dad was an amazingly skilled craftsman, and although he doesn't do it for a living, my husband is also. To a person, the people I know greatly admire those who can build, create, and fix things.

[OnMyOwn]

I don't see that where I live or work at all. I live in a very well-educated neighborhood with lots of doctors and professors and work with the most educated group at my fairly large (1k) employer. I can't think of a single person I know who looks down on those who choose blue collar professions. My husband and I, with three graduate degrees between us, would have been very happy had our son chosen to go the votech route. My dad was an amazingly skilled craftsman, and although he doesn't do it for a living, my husband is also. To a person, the people I know greatly admire those who can build, create, and fix things.

Honestly, I don't know anyone who "looks down" on blue collar workers, either and I greatly admire people who can build, create and fix things, too. But, google it if you've never experienced it. I have a close friend who has never earned her degree and it has always been very tough on her.

[Soror]

My husband went through Vo-Tech in high school and I expect that my son will as well (IIRC it is a half-day program for 11 grade plus- I hope for ds to be hs'ing alongside this but we'll see). Our area school has a good program with several options for real hands-on work. I think it will be a good fit for my son, even if it isn't his end goal. They have a carpentry program where the kids build a house from start to finish (it is then sold to finance the next house), culinary where the kids run and staff a restaurant, computer tech where the kids learn about building and repairing computers and installing software, mechanics, welding, etc. Each of the options has credentialing in the area studied and they have an excellent employment rate. At this point I expect ds to continue on to college but I see the hands-on experience he can gain at Vo-Tech a way to learn real skills and learn in a way that works well for him. He really loves robotics (which they don't have) but he also loves computers too so that seems like knowledge that will serve him no matter what he does and also a side career to make a little money while in college.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My husband did an apprenticeship in Germany (then went to the Uni and got a degree).  Problem for him was there really were no jobs in the skill he studied.

[SparklyUnicorn]

By the way, college for everyone does not mean everyone ready for four year college.  It means ready for community college, in the easiest program offered, such as early childhood development, which leads to a job as a teacher's helper. Most will not be able to start an Associate's in liberal arts, which covers what used to be 11th and 12th grade Regents level, without remediation.

 

There are also these career type schools that have stuff like Medical Assistant.  Some of those lead to very decent job opportunities, but aren't as difficult as getting a BA/BS. 

[Frances]

It's not so much that individuals "look down on" people without degrees, though obviously there are jerks that do.

 

The stigma, as such, is that you can't get a lot of very basic jobs that by all rights should in no way, shape or form require a degree.

 

I do some freelance writing, for example, and someone excitedly emailed me about an opening to manage the social media of a local sports team. "Bachelors required, masters preferred." I've done quite a bit of social media managing now, and while it has its own set of skills, like anything else, I can say with certainty that it does NOT actually require a degree to do the work. ...and just any degree? Bollocks.

I certainly understand and agree with you that it's ridiculous about so many basic jobs requiring a college degree. That's one of the reasons I think votech or apprenticeship programs are so great for the right individuals, as you come out with very direct, marketable skills, and many don't have any four year degree equivalent. I mean, as far as I know, no one goes to university to become a plumber or an electrician. And in medical fields, employers will often pay for some or all of the costs as someone transitions from say an RN to a BSN.

[Frances]

Some of the jobs that used to be open to votech grads now require military exp or an Associates. The high school dumb down simply means that the communication skills for the job require that level of training.

 

I wouldn't be looking at electrical supervisor, as that's union here so not easy to get in to. What the gals are finding helpful is dental assistant, which takes 2 years at the CC. Guys are enlisting or going to a trade school or CC while on list for police/fire/state job. Those jobs combined with side work put enough bread on the table.

 

No one looks down on trades here..the money is good, they are skilled workers. People are real tired of the high schools cancelling their votech and college prep offerings.

Fortunately, my state has woken up, and is on a real push to bring back votech programs. It's definitely taken over the failed college prep for everyone mantra that prevailed for so long. Not only is it seen as preparing people for jobs, but also as a way to keep kids engaged in school and improve high school graduation rates.

[Sandwalker]

My husband went through Vo-Tech in high school and I expect that my son will as well (IIRC it is a half-day program for 11 grade plus- I hope for ds to be hs'ing alongside this but we'll see). Our area school has a good program with several options for real hands-on work. I think it will be a good fit for my son, even if it isn't his end goal. They have a carpentry program where the kids build a house from start to finish (it is then sold to finance the next house), culinary where the kids run and staff a restaurant, computer tech where the kids learn about building and repairing computers and installing software, mechanics, welding, etc. Each of the options has credentialing in the area studied and they have an excellent employment rate. At this point I expect ds to continue on to college but I see the hands-on experience he can gain at Vo-Tech a way to learn real skills and learn in a way that works well for him. He really loves robotics (which they don't have) but he also loves computers too so that seems like knowledge that will serve him no matter what he does and also a side career to make a little money while in college.

That sounds like a great plan!

[Bluegoat]

I don't see that where I live or work at all. I live in a very well-educated neighborhood with lots of doctors and professors and work with the most educated group at my fairly large (1k) employer. I can't think of a single person I know who looks down on those who choose blue collar professions. My husband and I, with three graduate degrees between us, would have been very happy had our son chosen to go the votech route. My dad was an amazingly skilled craftsman, and although he doesn't do it for a living, my husband is also. To a person, the people I know greatly admire those who can build, create, and fix things.

 

 

Honestly, I don't know anyone who "looks down" on blue collar workers, either and I greatly admire people who can build, create and fix things, too. But, google it if you've never experienced it. I have a close friend who has never earned her degree and it has always been very tough on her.

 

 

What I see is not so much that they look down on those people - but they don't even consider them as possibilities for their kids, things to look into when helping their kids think about a career.  

[Carrie12345]

Some of the jobs that used to be open to votech grads now require military exp or an Associates.  The high school dumb down simply means that the communication skills for the job require that level of training.

 

I wouldn't be looking at electrical supervisor, as that's union here so not easy to get in to.  What the gals are finding helpful is dental assistant, which takes 2 years at the CC.  Guys are enlisting or going to a trade school or CC while on list for police/fire/state job. Those jobs combined with side work put enough bread on the table.

 

No one looks down on trades here..the money is good, they are skilled workers.  People are real tired of the high schools cancelling their votech and college prep offerings. 

 

In my region, we're pretty fortunate in that area.  My daughters were able to join the volunteer fire department at 14.  They pay for them to receive training through an approved cc.  At 16, that will include EMT.  At 18, they'll have to go back to do some practicals that the law prohibits minors from doing.  At that point, they'll have few if any credits to complete to earn certificates, or they can choose to take/CLEP a few gen ed courses for an associate's.  They can further their education and/or apply for paid positions with 4 years of experience under their belts and a giant stack of recommendations from which to choose.

 

That said, they're still completing fairly traditional college prep transcripts.  They have a mother who still isn't sure what she wants to be when she grows up, so I try to overcompensate.