And ANOTHER school shooting today

[poppy]

quote deleted

 

I am not sure why this got kept, while my response (saying I am not glad kids were murdered) was deleted. So, I want to clear up any ambiguity here.  This is not a good news day for anyone. 

[poppy]

Just a reminder that everyone agrees with that. EVERYONE. 

 

I can see why you think this - that everyone thinks there shouldn't be school shootings on a regular basis - but I just can't see it. Of course everyone thinks it's sad when it happens.  The same way it's sad when there is a fire or car accident. But actually wanting things to change so it doesn't happen is a whole different thing.   You either agree with the status quo or you don't.  It's been clear since Sandy Hook that many people think the status quo is fine. Sad sometimes, but fine.

[Word Nerd]

nm 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Word Nerd

[Sandwalker]

"Some officers were fielding calls from their children inside the school as they responded, authorities said. ". [emoji20]

 

 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/people-shot-mexico-high-school-police/story?id=51646326

[Sandwalker]

I still have never read it or anything like it as a tenet of any religion myself.

 

If it's pure mocking of another's beliefs you are talking about, IRL I see that happening on both sides of the gun control issue. Due to where I live, I see it far more (in person) from the NRA's side of things - mocking those who want more gun control.

 

Regardless, as with another poster from another (totally unrelated) thread, this issue is one of the main reasons we plan to relocate. I've been to other countries and seen their majority mindset in person. I prefer it. Every country has its folks who slip through the cracks or for whatever reason turn violent. Some countries put up with it and others try to prevent it in ways that sure seem to work better (from health care to gun control and more). I want to join them. It's ok that they might not have all the "toys" (not meaning guns - meaning standard of living) that this country takes for granted. There's more to life and actually living than toys.

I am not enamored of toys and 'stuff', that's not what the United States is about. I am so grateful that I was born here and got to raise my family in this country. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Arcadia]

For the New Mexico Aztec High School shooting

 

“San Juan County Sheriff's Office, NM

1 hr · Aztec, NM ·

If you have a second set of keys to a vehicle parked at Aztec High School, please meet law enforcement at the corner of Zia and Jemez Ave and they will escort you to your car. The school is still an active crime scene and no one will be allowed in the building to retrieve anything at this time. Aztec High School is closed tomorrow. We will continue to post information as it becomes available.†https://www.facebook.com/SJCSO/

[creekland]

I am not enamored of toys and 'stuff', that's not what the United States is about. I am so grateful that I was born here and got to raise my family in this country. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

I'm not telling a single other person to relocate.  Everyone (more or less - money helps) gets to pick where they like as far as I'm concerned.

 

Those things in your last sentence exist elsewhere - plenty of places.  I'm not sure why anyone would think they are only in the US.

[8circles]

 

Those things in your last sentence exist elsewhere - plenty of places.  I'm not sure why anyone would think they are only in the US.

 

It's what I was taught all through school. & at home actually.

 

I never really thought about it until I did, then it was easy to see how wrong it was.

[creekland]

It's what I was taught all through school. & at home actually.

 

I never really thought about it until I did, then it was easy to see how wrong it was.

 

I suppose that's why I have my top two statements in my siggy.

 

It always amazes me just how much of our US education is "US-Centric" whether that comes from our schools or media.  I first realized it on an elementary school field trip to Canada many moons ago.  We lived right on the border, so it made sense for our schools to do Canadian field trips rather than US ones due to distance to museums, forts, etc.  While touring one such fort our tour guide nonchalantly asked us who the first Prime Minister of Canada was (as something about it related to the fort).  None of us kids knew, so we were all quiet.  The tour guide thought we were all just shy so asked again - encouraging us to speak up.  Our teacher intervened, letting the dude know we were from the US, so likely didn't know who it was.  She admitted she didn't know either.  The tour guide was stunned.  He apologized and explained that Canadian kids all learned about George Washington, so assumed that US kids who lived right on the border - a border that shares local history across it - would have learned about Canada's first Prime Minister.

 

I haven't forgotten John McDonald since.  And afterward I've tried to make it a priority to know many world leader names.  I'll admit I don't know tons about all their pasts, but when we go places, I try to find out and catch up.  I keep up on actual World News by watching BBC rather than the US versions because they simply do not cover world incidents.  That one experience opened up my eyes far more than one name in history.

 

I know I'm unusual.  I know kids from my same school likely know nothing about Canada's history even though they see the country daily (it's literally right across the river).  I know we ran across a US Customs Agent who didn't know "what" Cote D'Ivoire was ("Is it an island or something???" followed by "Why in the world would you want to go there?") when my son was crossing the border with us after he'd taken a trip there earlier in the year.

 

Such is life in this country if one doesn't try to overcome educational gaps.  

[Sandwalker]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/

[OrganicJen]

I'm not telling a single other person to relocate. Everyone (more or less - money helps) gets to pick where they like as far as I'm concerned.

 

Those things in your last sentence exist elsewhere - plenty of places. I'm not sure why anyone would think they are only in the US.

I think an issue for some people is also that what is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for one person may not be for another, and may infringe on another person. My son asked me if the right of people to own guns beyond something like a basic shotgun is more important than the right of kids to feel safe in places like schools. He obviously has a different view of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than some other people do and I think his idea of it is consistent with how things are in some other countries. I like hearing his opinions as a child and especially after he studied American History, and he often asks questions that are really thought provoking for me.

[creekland]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/

 

If that's meant to make me change my mind, it's not working.  There are several aspects of "free speech" I disagree with.  Westboro Baptist and the KKK come to mind as examples.

 

Like I've said before... we've found we have a preference for how other places handle things.  If you prefer it here, free speech, guns, and all, great.  I'm not trying to convince you to go elsewhere.

[creekland]

I think an issue for some people is also that what is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for one person may not be for another, and may infringe on another person. My son asked me if the right of people to own guns beyond something like a basic shotgun is more important than the right of kids to feel safe in places like schools. He obviously has a different view of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than some other people do and I think his idea of it is consistent with how things are in some other countries. I like hearing his opinions as a child and especially after he studied American History, and he often asks questions that are really thought provoking for me.

 

Same here.  This is why it can be good for everyone to be able to choose their spot on this planet.  My ancestors came here as long ago as the Mayflower and as recently as my Great Grandparents (pending which line one is looking at, of course).  I doubt they mind that we opt to spend part of our life elsewhere if we see better options.  My kids will choose for themselves too.  They've already been other places - and liked them.  Who knows where they'll opt to settle down.  We're ok with pretty much anywhere they like.

[OrganicJen]

So my son has been doing a lot of reading about Canada because we are seriously considering moving there. He found this article about Canada being the freest country...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/11/03/canada-is-the-freest-nation-in-the-world-legatum-study-says%3fcontext=amp

 

I'm not arguing that this is true or anything, just sharing the article as I found it interesting since there has been some mention of freedom regarding the gun issue.

[Sandwalker]

If that's meant to make me change my mind, it's not working. There are several aspects of "free speech" I disagree with. Westboro Baptist and the KKK come to mind as examples.

 

Like I've said before... we've found we have a preference for how other places handle things. If you prefer it here, free speech, guns, and all, great. I'm not trying to convince you to go elsewhere.

I didn't think you were trying to convince me of anything, nor am I begging you to stay. I was giving my opinion on my country, which apparently makes me uneducated in history [emoji23].

 

I prefer freedom over security.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2LMTRoWlA

[creekland]

I didn't think you were trying to convince me of anything, nor am I begging you to stay. I was giving my opinion on my country, which apparently makes me uneducated in history [emoji23].

 

I prefer freedom over security.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2LMTRoWlA

I'm not sure why my life and thoughts bother you so much TBH. In any event, I can't watch videos here at home due to limited data, so no comments on that. I don't really care to change your mind on anything anyway.

 

As for history, it's possible my elementary school was the only one along the lengthy border that didn't teach Canadian history basics. Who knows? I was only relating my personal experience.

 

The lack of World News known by typical Americans I personally see everywhere. Your experience may vary.

[Sandwalker]

I'm not sure why my life and thoughts bother you so much TBH. In any event, I can't watch videos here at home due to limited data, so no comments on that. I don't really care to change your mind on anything anyway.

 

As for history, it's possible my elementary school was the only one along the lengthy border that didn't teach Canadian history basics. Who knows? I was only relating my personal experience.

 

The lack of World News known by typical Americans I personally see everywhere. Your experience may vary.

Sorry to annoy you, I'll move along. Your thoughts don't bother me at all, no worries.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/

Grouping Asia pacific is like grouping the Americas together. That graph appears to have an agenda.

[Sandwalker]

Grouping Asia pacific is like grouping the Americas together. That graph appears to have an agenda.

The link is there if you want to read the accompanying article or explore the site. It is the World Economic Forum, and although I am not familiar with all of their work, they do not seem to be particularly biased toward anything except improving the world's economy.

[Ausmumof3]

The link is there if you want to read the accompanying article or explore the site. It is the World Economic Forum, and although I am not familiar with all of their work, they do not seem to be particularly biased toward anything except improving the world's economy.

Fair enough.

 

It just seems odd to compare a country United States to a region Asia Pacific. There's so many completely different cultures in the Asia Pacific region as to be basically meaningless.

[Sandwalker]

Fair enough.

 

It just seems odd to compare a country United States to a region Asia Pacific. There's so many completely different cultures in the Asia Pacific region as to be basically meaningless.

That is for sure true, very odd grouping.

[OrganicJen]

Interesting, I found the most recent ranking and for "personal freedom" Canada dropped to 2nd place and the U.S. dropped to 28th. The U.S.does win for best business environment though.

http://www.prosperity.com/feed/north-america-falls-in-latest-rankings

Edited December 8, 2017 by OrganicJen

[poppy]

Yes, American schoolkids are taught that the US is a free country unlike most of the rest of the world.

Every year I hear that  song "I'm glad I live in America! Where at least I know I'm free...."   They play it at sporting events and fireworks, stuff like that.

I remember being taught as a young child about the US Revolution as a daring new crazy unheard of new idea.    10 years later in high school, they briefly mention the French Revolution that just happened to happen around the same time....  

 

[poppy]

A couple of updates on the shooting- only 2 dead (much less than was thought at first).

 

But it was traumatic:
"Garrett Parker, a sophomore at Aztec High School, said he was in a classroom when students heard what they thought was someone punching the lockers. As the noise got louder and the suspect got closer to the classroom, they realized it was gunshots, he said. The whole classroom had to hide until they were told by officials to walk out of the room toward the back of the building and toward the parking lot, Garrett said. They were then split into groups by alphabetical order of their last names and taken to a park to meet their families.When Garrett and his classmates were walking out of the building they were told to not look to the right because there was a body lying there."

 

It's awful.  I wish for healing for those kids.

[Word Nerd]

The U.S. has an embarrassing record and ranking in press (“the enemy of the peopleâ€) freedom now. https://rsf.org/en/united-states

[Sandwalker]

 

 

Yes, American schoolkids are taught that the US is a free country unlike most of the rest of the world.

Every year I hear that song "I'm glad I live in America! Where at least I know I'm free...." They play it at sporting events and fireworks, stuff like that.

I remember being taught as a young child about the US Revolution as a daring new crazy unheard of new idea. 10 years later in high school, they briefly mention the French Revolution that just happened to happen around the same time....

And the French revolution was not inspired by the new United States and our freedoms? The French did not assist the US in our revolution?

[Sandwalker]

The U.S. has an embarrassing record and ranking in press (“the enemy of the peopleâ€) freedom now. https://rsf.org/en/united-states

https://rsf.org/en/our-supporters

[Word Nerd]

https://rsf.org/en/our-supporters

What is your issue with Reporters Without Borders NGO and its supporters?

[Butter]

Yes, American schoolkids are taught that the US is a free country unlike most of the rest of the world.

Every year I hear that  song "I'm glad I live in America! Where at least I know I'm free...."   They play it at sporting events and fireworks, stuff like that.

I remember being taught as a young child about the US Revolution as a daring new crazy unheard of new idea.    10 years later in high school, they briefly mention the French Revolution that just happened to happen around the same time....  

 

While I don't disagree with what you said, the French Revolution didn't just happen to happen around the same time as the US Revolution.  It was inspired by the US Revolution.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Just a reminder that everyone agrees with that. EVERYONE. 

 

True. Except that some of us think that maybe we can make some moves toward actually reducing the number of incidents like these, and other people think such incidents are simply a price to be paid so they can stockpile weapons they will most likely NEVER actually need to use. And it's a price that's paid in actual human lives. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Laura Corin]

While I don't disagree with what you said, the French Revolution didn't just happen to happen around the same time as the US Revolution. It was inspired by the US Revolution.

That's an interesting point of view. As a European I was taught that the French Revolution was fomented by particular in-country circumstances: tax farming, etc.

 

ETA here is wkipedia on the issue

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

Edited December 8, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Word Nerd]

True. Except that some of us think that maybe we can make some moves toward actually reducing the number of incidents like these, and other people think such incidents are simply a price to be paid so they can stockpile weapons they will most likely NEVER actually need to use. And it's a price that's paid in actual human lives.

And some of us think false dichotomies and simplistic us-vs-them arguments are a distraction.

[Arcadia]

ACT has rescheduled the test tomorrow at that high school. It is the only high school in New Mexico on the rescheduled list. It just stands out in a sad way on that list :(

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

And some of us think false dichotomies and simplistic us-vs-them arguments are a distraction.

 

What options exist between "I support gun control legislation because I believe it will reduce the number of murders by gun" and "I believe that any legislation is an infringement on my rights and don't support it"? That's what I'm referring to here. You either believe gun control is a part of the solution to the problem or you believe that the problem is just what we have to suffer along with in order to live in a free society. I don't see a middle ground.

 

If you don't believe that gun control is a possible part of the solution, then what is? I don't see a lot of overlap between people agitating for improved mental health care that accessible to all and those lobbying against gun control.

[TechWife]

I would love the NRA to stop blocking gun violence research like they have for the past 20+ years.

 

My hearts go out to these families and communities. I hope one day we are able to research and understand more fully why the rates keep rising.

I think this is where it must start. I see no disadvantage to collecting and analyzing statistics on gun violence. Only when this is done will we be able to examine possible causes for these mass shootings and provide possible solutions. Empirical evidence is very convincing - just ask the tobacco companies.

[Butter]

That's an interesting point of view. As a European I was taught that the French Revolution was fomented by particular in-country circumstances: tax farming, etc.

 

ETA here is wkipedia on the issue

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

 

Well, yes, of course.  But I think you are thinking causes while I'm thinking the French had helped with the American Revolution and it was successful and so they knew they could do it, too.  In other words, they were inspired to not keep taking it.

[Carol in Cal.]

What options exist between "I support gun control legislation because I believe it will reduce the number of murders by gun" and "I believe that any legislation is an infringement on my rights and don't support it"? That's what I'm referring to here. You either believe gun control is a part of the solution to the problem or you believe that the problem is just what we have to suffer along with in order to live in a free society. I don't see a middle ground.

 

If you don't believe that gun control is a possible part of the solution, then what is? I don't see a lot of overlap between people agitating for improved mental health care that accessible to all and those lobbying against gun control.

 

Straw man argument utterly. 

What people who are concerned with rights say is much more nuanced than that.

They say,

1.  We should start by enforcing gun control laws that are already on the books. Because if we don't even do that, what good does it do to pass new laws?  Passing laws that we don't enforce is an ineffective feel good move.

2.  We should look at places in this country where there are gun control laws to see whether and which ones are effective in deciding what to implement nationwide or at least in other states.

3.  When we implement new gun control laws, we should do so with appropriate caution to preserve our constitutional rights.

4.  In parallel we need to address the entrenched mental health treatment issues in this country as well as societal standards breakdown, because time after time we see that those are associated with gun fatalities.  The most common mode of shooting deaths in this country is suicide.  The second most common is urban gang violence. 

 

Personally, I see room for tons of middle ground there.

And I have seen these things brought up again and again in these threads, so it's not novel or new. 

[creekland]

Personally, the worst thing I see IRL is that the majority of kids at my school are no longer affected by these shootings - even when they take place in a school.  To them, these are "same old, same old" news - just a regular part of their lives.

 

I was at school when we used to have to allow time for counseling because kids needed it.  Now they are hardened to them.  Many adults are too - more are than aren't in my world.

 

It's not surprising to me that they continue.  As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, to too many folks, this is now a viable option for ending life.

 

I doubt Pandora's Box can be closed.

 

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Well, yes, of course. But I think you are thinking causes while I'm thinking the French had helped with the American Revolution and it was successful and so they knew they could do it, too. In other words, they were inspired to not keep taking it.

I hadn't thought of it in those terms because it was the royal regime of France that helped the American revolutionaries in furtherance of their campaign against Britain.

[poppy]

I hadn't thought of it in those terms because it was the royal regime of France that helped the American revolutionaries in furtherance of their campaign against Britain.

 

Right, France and the US were really bound up together in that era in complicated way.   My point was, it was the Age of Revolution, ideas and passions (and guns) were flying back and forth, lots & lots of change.  Ireland, Italy, Greece all have rebellions. Colonies fought back against imperialists, and not just in the US.  I don't think our  school kids learn about the Haitian revolution at all (a  slave rebellion that led to the creation of a new state) even though it had a HUGE influence all over the "New World".  

US schoolkids don't get any context, especially in K-5.     It may be the same in other nations, I don't know, but I am 100% sure many Americans don't put together US Revolution as anything other than a spark of genius by our founding fathers that is unique in the world.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Straw man argument utterly. 

What people who are concerned with rights say is much more nuanced than that.

They say,

1.  We should start by enforcing gun control laws that are already on the books. Because if we don't even do that, what good does it do to pass new laws?  Passing laws that we don't enforce is an ineffective feel good move.

2.  We should look at places in this country where there are gun control laws to see whether and which ones are effective in deciding what to implement nationwide or at least in other states.

3.  When we implement new gun control laws, we should do so with appropriate caution to preserve our constitutional rights.

4.  In parallel we need to address the entrenched mental health treatment issues in this country as well as societal standards breakdown, because time after time we see that those are associated with gun fatalities.  The most common mode of shooting deaths in this country is suicide.  The second most common is urban gang violence. 

 

Personally, I see room for tons of middle ground there.

And I have seen these things brought up again and again in these threads, so it's not novel or new. 

 

You must be listening to different people than I am. The ones I know (both online and IRL) are absolutely adamant that no gun control measures are in any way acceptable--not the ones that have already been enacted and certainly not any that libtards might wish to enact in the future. All attempts at controlling gun violence that might involve putting any controls on the purchase and use of firearms are unconstitutional. 

 

The ones you're describing are not the people I'm referring to in my previous posts. That kind of reasonable approach is being drowned out by the far more adamant side of the group, and I don't see the reasonable folks gaining any actual traction in the discussion. Are they? Are there any groups getting studies accomplished in this area? I'm seriously asking. 

 

ETA: With regard to mental health and guns, this is take of the Executive Director of the NRA:

 

NRA: The Mentally Ill Have Gun Rights Too

 

So I won't be surprised if I don't see a lot of gun owners working hard toward improving access to affordable mental health care as a solution to this crisis. 

 

I have more I want to say in addressing the social issues that drive things like gang violence and societal breakdown, but it had me veering into the political, so I won't bother. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Carol in Cal.]

You must be listening to different people than I am. The ones I know (both online and IRL) are absolutely adamant that no gun control measures are in any way acceptable--not the ones that have already been enacted and certainly not any that libtards might wish to enact in the future. All attempts at controlling gun violence that might involve putting any controls on the purchase and use of firearms are unconstitutional. 

 

The ones you're describing are not the people I'm referring to in my previous posts. That kind of reasonable approach is being drowned out by the far more adamant side of the group, and I don't see the reasonable folks gaining any actual traction in the discussion. 

When you write this kind of thing, I just shake my head, because people take the positions I have described over and over RIGHT HERE on these boards, and constantly get ignored and caricatured by posts like yours.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

When you write this kind of thing, I just shake my head, because people take the positions I have described over and over RIGHT HERE on these boards, and constantly get ignored and caricatured by posts like yours.  

 

:confused1:  I'm not saying these people do not exist. Of course they do. I'm saying that in the real world, these people are getting shouted down by the more extreme segments and prevented from implementing any real change. Please, feel free to show me where these reasonable people are making an impact. I'm completely serious. Link me to studies, pending legislation, movements that are gaining traction, etc. I'm wide open to being proved wrong on this. Show me where the folks who advocate thoughtful and reasonable measures are making change happen. And please don't just tell me to look it up myself, because I have and I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing lots of the other BS though.

 

Or are you trying to tell me that I don't actually know the people I know in real life? That I haven't had the discussions I've had? Because that's pretty condescending. Caricatures indeed.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

Or are you trying to tell me that I don't actually know the people I know in real life? That I haven't had the discussions I've had? Because that's pretty condescending. Caricatures indeed.

I'm saying that you are ignoring the people HERE with those positions, who are far more numerous than the ones (if any) who actually hold to your caricature.  You mentioned 'online and IRL' in the post I was replying to, which was pretty ironic.

[poppy]

Straw man argument utterly. 

What people who are concerned with rights say is much more nuanced than that.

They say,

1.  We should start by enforcing gun control laws that are already on the books. Because if we don't even do that, what good does it do to pass new laws?  Passing laws that we don't enforce is an ineffective feel good move.

2.  We should look at places in this country where there are gun control laws to see whether and which ones are effective in deciding what to implement nationwide or at least in other states.

3.  When we implement new gun control laws, we should do so with appropriate caution to preserve our constitutional rights.

4.  In parallel we need to address the entrenched mental health treatment issues in this country as well as societal standards breakdown, because time after time we see that those are associated with gun fatalities.  The most common mode of shooting deaths in this country is suicide.  The second most common is urban gang violence. 

 

Personally, I see room for tons of middle ground there.

And I have seen these things brought up again and again in these threads, so it's not novel or new. 

 

For point #1:

Enforcing what's on the books would not save Sandy Hook's children.  It would  not have saved the victims of the Vegas shooting. What would you do about those?

 

It would have saved the people in Texas.  When the NRA  and gun rights advocates use their very considerable political clout to limit gun sales to the mentally ill or unqualified ... I will be very, very surprised that day. 

 

For point #2:

Without delving too far into politics, there is a move by the US House of Representatives allow anyone with concealed carry in any state to be able to conceal carry anywhere in the United States.   Which tells me the gun lobby's agenda is  to strip away local voices on gun control.   Do you think that is appropriate? 

 

For point #3, I agree,

 

For point #4 - 

 

Yes we need much better funding for mental health care in this country.  I have NO IDEA if "urban gang violence" is the most common homicide. Reporting on gun violence is curtailed, as you very well know.

 

The most common way children to experience by gun violence is at home, with unsecured guns.   At least one a week.  Though again, reporting is very very spotty.  Children who die from guns at home are listed as "accident" not "homicide" so they are not included in gun violence statistics. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm saying that you are ignoring the people HERE with those positions, who are far more numerous than the ones (if any) who actually hold to your caricature.  You mentioned 'online and IRL' in the post I was replying to, which was pretty ironic.

 

 

I'm not ignoring anyone. I'm saying that these people are not who I was referring to in my earlier posts, and they're NOT the people blocking change being made. I also never said that everyone I know online holds those views. 

 

So what you're saying is that instead of backing up your argument, you'll continue to condescend to me and shake your head. Well done. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm not ignoring anyone. I'm saying that these people are not who I was referring to in my earlier posts, and they're NOT the people blocking change being made. I also never said that everyone I know online holds those views. 

 

So what you're saying is that instead of backing up your argument, you'll continue to condescend to me and shake your head. Well done. 

 

You speak very broadly and inaccurately include the people here with the positions I described in the direction of your comments.  That is what is condescending.  I'm glad to hear that you did not mean it that way.

[Carol in Cal.]

For point #1:

Enforcing what's on the books would not save Sandy Hook's children.  It would  not have saved the victims of the Vegas shooting. What would you do about those?

 

Mental health limitations would have prevented the Sandy Hook thing.  How would you have prevented it?

I don't know enough about the Las Vegas developing details to comment on that one.

 

It would have saved the people in Texas.  When the NRA  and gun rights advocates use their very considerable political clout to limit gun sales to the mentally ill or unqualified ... I will be very, very surprised that day. 

 

For point #2:

Without delving too far into politics, there is a move by the US House of Representatives allow anyone with concealed carry in any state to be able to conceal carry anywhere in the United States.   Which tells me the gun lobby's agenda is  to strip away local voices on gun control.   Do you think that is appropriate? 

 

I don't know enough about this to have a firm position, but tend to oppose it.

 

For point #3, I agree,

 

For point #4 - 

 

Yes we need much better funding for mental health care in this country.  I have NO IDEA if "urban gang violence" is the most common homicide. Reporting on gun violence is curtailed, as you very well know.

 

Actually I don't know that.  We have stats on every death in this country.  That I know for sure.  Or are you talking about casualties as well?  Because I don't know about those.

 

The most common way children to experience by gun violence is at home, with unsecured guns.   At least one a week.  Though again, reporting is very very spotty.  Children who die from guns at home are listed as "accident" not "homicide" so they are not included in gun violence statistics. 

Again, the most common mechanism for gun deaths in this country is suicide.  Consequently I would think that better suicide prevention efforts, including work on mental health services would be the highest priority in addressing gun related death.

[creekland]

It could be time to post this website that lists gun violence incidents in oodles of charts and maps.  Here's one detailing unintentional shootings:

 

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/query/2f39b65e-f359-4614-bb34-1576259fed80

 

The first page (at the moment) is filled with shootings only back to Dec 2nd.  One week.

 

Here's children killed or injured:

 

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/query/a1dbece6-1434-49fe-88f5-3c8316431f0c

 

The first page goes back to Nov 22nd.  Not even a month's worth fit on one page.

 

Here's teens killed or injured (the school shooting this thread is about comes in here):

 

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/query/a1dbece6-1434-49fe-88f5-3c8316431f0c

 

It only goes back to Dec 4th.  Less than a week again.

 

It boggles my mind that there are folks who think having oodles of guns out there (legal or not) helps our (collective) safety, but then again, there are folks who feel it's safer to drive than fly too, so... often stats mean nothing to many.

 

I still don't think anything will ever change in the US.  It's a mindset this "Great" nation has.  

 

Out of curiosity, I googled gun violence and deaths and got this World Atlas site:

 

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-firearm-related-deaths.html

 

Apparently, we're still #11 in the Firearm Related Deaths category with an interesting list of (non 1st world) countries above us (and many below too).  I'm sure if we keep on track we can move up into the Top 10 at least.  Our Great Country should never be below the Top 10 in anything! (sigh)

[mellifera33]

 

 

It boggles my mind that there are folks who think having oodles of guns out there (legal or not) helps our (collective) safety, but then again, there are folks who feel it's safer to drive than fly too, so... often stats mean nothing to many.

 

 

 

I think it boils down to a false sense of control. If I'm driving then I can prevent an accident, whereas if the pilot is in control he'll crash. If I have a gun, then my lightning-fast reflexes and cool head will prevail when the bad guy shows up and I'll take him down before he can cause any harm.