Are Chemistry and Algebra II really necessary for non-stem majors?

[bluebonnetgirl]

My son is not headed for a STEM field. He will likely wind up in art/media/film, communications, marketing/public relations, politics or teaching. Math and science are difficult, boring, tedious, and not enjoyable. He gets good grades but has to work all hours of the day and night to do so.

 

He is taking Forensic Science in 9th, and I am planning Biology in 10th. Can he stop science at this point? Does he HAVE to do Chemistry?

 

Same with math. He is taking Algebra I in 9th, and will take Geometry in 10th. Must he keep going with Algebra II?

 

Truth be told he would like to take more classes in his fields of interest which is in art and graphic design, photography, film, theater, speech, political science, business, and communications. All the work it takes to slog through heavy science and math courses are sucking the joy of learning out of him and taking all his time.

 

He is not vying for any elite university either. He is not even sure he want to go to college - he really does not enjoy studying the traditional subjects, but I'd like to keep the door open.

 

ANy advice for a new to high school mom with a creative, outgoing teen who'd rather be creating and doing with others (very social) than having his nose in a book all day.

Edited December 9, 2017 by bluebonnetgirl

[cera2]

If you want to keep the doors open for college he really needs three math and three science credits.  

 

Can you find a coop setting class that he could take to help make it a more social experience?

[bluebonnetgirl]

Ok, but can the 3rd math be Consumer Math or Personal Finance instead of Algebra II?

 

And for science, could he do Anatomy, or Astronomy instead of Chemisty?

[freesia]

I say yes. Or do physics instead of chem. I think Alg 2 is the minimum a child of average intelligence should complete. And there is a body of basic science knowledge you should also have.

 

But it doesn't have to be heavy. Think about teaching textbooks and look at Guest Hollow.

[fourisenough]

I say yes, he needs Chemistry and Algebra 2. Like someone else said above, you don’t necessarily need the most rigorous classes, but solid exposure is important IMHO.

[Lanny]

Things might change. Interests have been known to change, with time and with exposure to a new subject.   It is better to be "over" prepared than to be "under" prepared.  The Admissions people are accustomed to seeing certain courses on virtually every application they look at. One that doesn't have the most basic courses would probably get a 2nd look, which might or might not be helpful to the applicant.

 

This is for Tech (Texas Tech University) and is probably fairly typical. On this URL: 

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/admissions/apply/status/first_freshmen/

 

The recommended curriculum includes:

4 units of English
4 units of Math
4 units of Science
2 units of Foreign Language

[Crimson Wife]

Not having algebra 2 on his transcript will really limit his choices for college. Even community colleges typically require college algebra or statistics (with intermediate algebra as a pre-req for both) in order to finish an associate's degree.

 

Business majors often require calculus.

 

My math hater took the Statway sequence dual-enrolled at community college. That integrates Algebra 2 and college-level statistics & spreads it out over 2 semesters. The first semester is considered remedial (but wasn't for her since she was taking it after having completed an integrated algebra 1 & geometry course) but the second gave her college credit. The second semester satisfies the transfer requirements for non-STEM majors at the state's 4 year colleges.

 

I'm going to be doing a "summary" transcript and list Integrated Math 1, 2, & 3 with the description that the courses together cover algebra 1, algebra 2, geometry, and college-level statistics.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Crimson Wife

[justasque]

It's worth noting that in public high schools, a course called "chemistry" is typically taught at several levels.  A school might offer AP Chem (equivalent to college chem, and typically only taken after a year of Honors Chem), Honors Chem (a rigorous high school level chem, typically for STEM students who will go on to AP Chem), College-Prep Chem (a decent high school level chem, perhaps for bright non-STEM students who are college bound), and one or two versions of General Chem (a lower-level high school class).  Point being, not all high school chem classes are equivalent; the key is choosing (or creating) one that is the best fit for your child's ability, interest, and goals.  In some ways, looking at these options might lead you towards doing the least-challenging course that would still meet requirements for admission to a good-but-not-ivy college.  (To be competitive for scholarships, many state-flagship schools, etc you'd want to aim higher.)

Note also that if your child majors in the arts or skips college entirely, this may be the highest source of chem learning your child has to prepare them for adult life.  An understanding of the basics of chemistry can help in the kitchen, in understanding medical topics, and in understanding some current events (climate change) in order to have an informed enough perspective to be  a responsible, involved citizen.   In some ways, taking this "lifetime" view can be a push towards taking a more challenging class.   

Does everyone HAVE to do chem?  No, of course not.  But it does provide information and perspective that educated adults may find useful, and it keeps the doors open for college admissions.  Don't minimize either of these things.

 

[Clear Creek]

I would pick a science (any science that sounds interesting - environmental science, astronomy, geology, etc.) so he has a third science. It doesn't have to be chemistry or physics (unless the college he wants to go to specifies biology and one of the other two as a requirement), and it doesn't have to be difficult...it just has to be science. If he plans on going to college, then he needs Algebra II. If he doesn't plan on going to college, then I would do a third year of math, but something else like consumer math. If he ever changes his mind and goes to college, it won't be the end of the world (especially if he starts at a community college); he will just take the placement test and begin with a remedial math course.

[Hilltopmom]

I’d do Environmental science, geology, etc instead if need be.

And consumer math or an easier algebra 2

[SebastianCat]

This is my local state university's requirements for admission.  They are not considered very selective.

You must complete a minimum of 18 approved units of high school work in the five core subject areas in addition to three approved academic electives. If you graduated from high school in 2011 or thereafter, you must have completed four units of math—including one course above and beyond Algebra II.

 

Although you may take one fewer academic elective unit, applicants who are the most competitive for admission typically complete a minimum of 20 academic units, which averages five per year in grades nine through twelve. 

 

Subject Area English 4 Mathematics 4 Natural Science 3 Social Science 3 Foreign Language 2 Electives 2 TOTAL UNITS 18

 

 

 

OP, most of the fields that you mentioned are likely for your DS will require a degree.   I would consider Algebra II the minimum level of math required, but Chemistry could be replaced by another science course to get his 3rd science credit.   After Algebra II, I'd consider having him take either Statistics or Consumer Math.  

 

Definitely check with your local colleges to see what they require before making a decision.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SebastianCat

[JanetC]

Yes, he needs Algebra 2, especially to keep the doors open for businsss or teaching. A physical science class covering the basics of physics and chemistry is also a good idea for college prep, though perhaps not as critical.

 

My art major daughter took:

Math: algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, stats, and skipped precalc.

Science: chemistry, biology, meteorology, and skipped the fourth year of science.

 

That being said, "working all hours of the day and night" on science and math is not healthy. Are these subjects being taught by you or by someone else? Is he struggling to self-study without any help at all? Is the curriculum a good fit and are the expectations realistic? You should be doing some problem-solving here.

[RootAnn]

I have an artsy kid who dislikes math and science (unless it has to do with animals and even then she doesn't like it). My plan is getting through Algebra 2 and hopefully a little trig. She's doing conceptual physics this year and the plan is to do conceptual chemistry next year (Guest Hollow). Depending on her interests, the third year will be some sort of animal science or zoology (if we can get by without a biology pre-req).

 

Just like my math & foreign language-loving DD is forced to write for English and learn some science & social studies, I'll force my fiction writing & art-loving DD to do math and science.

 

I agree with others that it doesn't have to be chemistry, but I'd definitely try to get through Algebra 2. And checking some colleges that he might consider (financial safeties for your family, for example) for what they require is a good idea.

[kiana]

Communications is often in the school of business. Most business majors require not only college algebra (which comes after algebra 2) but business calculus or finite mathematics. Elementary education often requires a college algebra class and always requires some kind of "math for teachers". 

 

Most of his indicated interests require a college degree. Almost every college degree requires some math class. Unless his future plan is "start at the CC in remedial math, plan to spend an extra year in college", he really does need to do it.

 

But he really shouldn't be doing "all hours of the day and night". How many hours per week is he averaging and what curriculum is he using now? 

[MerryAtHope]

As others have said, definitely yes to Algebra II (less than that and he would be in remedial math in college, and would also not score very well on college entrance tests like ACT/SAT). Algebra II is a pretty universal requirement.

 

Most state colleges want to see 3 sciences, 1 or 2 with labs--you may see some variance here, so check with the schools in your area that you might consider (and of course look at private schools he would consider as well). Around us, a typical requirement is to specifically mention biology as one of the 3 required sciences, but chemistry and physics are listed as optional for meeting the 3-science requirement. (Even our local Community College requires high school biology for students wanting to enter a degree-seeking AA or AS program for transferring, so it's a really typical requirement in my state). I allowed my non-stem major to choose science topics he was interested in and only required biology (one of his chosen topics was robotics, which I'm sure some schools might not classify as fulfilling the science requirement specifically--but since my kids start at the CC before transferring, I was okay with it being in the broader "science and technology" category. And he still had to take 2 sciences for his AA degree, one being a lab.). My stem major did bio-chem-physics and Advanced Bio (her favorite).

 

 

[bluebonnetgirl]

Thank you everyone for responding.  I guess we will stay the course with Math up to Algebra II.  Biology will be taken in 10th, and I will see about another science other than Chemistry in 11th.  I think he might like Astronomy or Environmental Science better.  

 

This child is very social and needs a lot of breaks, so that is why school seems to take so long.    Of  course when it is his passion, he can work for hours on end. But math and science are not passions, nor are they easy, so they wind up taking a disproportionate share of time and sucking the joy out of school many days.  Again, I wish it were different, where kids could pursue their passions instead of a prescribed course of courses that some college admissions rep wants to see and that many kids will never see or use again.

[klmama]

OP, I suggest you look closely at the general education requirements and the requirements for every major on your list at any colleges he might consider, then plan accordingly.  FWIW, my dc attend state schools and have majors on your list; one of my dc was required to take math through college algebra and the other was required to take calculus.  

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by klmama

[bluebonnetgirl]

I shall do that.   If a  major requires higher math, he will probably say forget it.  I mentioned business and teaching, but that is probably not his path.   He is not even sure he wants college.  Community college at this point is more likely, as it will save a lot of money and buy some time in declaring a major.  And if he does pursue a degree, something in the visual arts or a creative field is most likely.  The big issue is that these core classes take so much time and energy, there is little time to pursue his passions. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by bluebonnetgirl

[MerryAtHope]

Thank you everyone for responding.  I guess we will stay the course with Math up to Algebra II.  Biology will be taken in 10th, and I will see about another science other than Chemistry in 11th.  I think he might like Astronomy or Environmental Science better.  

 

This child is very social and needs a lot of breaks, so that is why school seems to take so long.    Of  course when it is his passion, he can work for hours on end. But math and science are not passions, nor are they easy, so they wind up taking a disproportionate share of time and sucking the joy out of school many days.  Again, I wish it were different, where kids could pursue their passions instead of a prescribed course of courses that some college admissions rep wants to see and that many kids will never see or use again.

 

I wonder if you could find a local science course of some kind or a tutor or an online class--something that might meet more of his social needs and make it not quite as tedious for him. 

 

I found my kids still had time to pursue interests even around the requirements. And the upper-level thinking skills that math requires are, I think, helpful, even if they don't directly use all that they learn again. (He'll definitely use it in college though--even as a liberal arts major, he would need a math course that is going to build on that Alg. 2 base.)

[bluebonnetgirl]

He is taking science and math as outside courses.  All of his classes are outsourced.  However, most of the work is done independently of course.

[EKS]

No, they are not necessary for living a good life.  However, if he wants to go directly to a four year college, it would probably be better to take them.  If he doesn't mind going the community college/transfer route, then I don't think he needs to take them now. 

 

That said, back in the day, I did not take chemistry (or physics), and I got a D in Algebra II.  I went to a four year school and ended up majoring in biochemistry.  So go figure.

[bluebonnetgirl]

I don't think he will go directly to a 4 year college.  It will be either community college or a dedicated art school, more likely than not.  The art school he is eyeing has NO specific requirements.  No specific math, science, English, etc.  It's all very individualized.  

[kiana]

I would second the idea of pursuing a science alternative.

 

A college non-majors textbook could give some great ideas:

Astronomy, environmental science, geology, meteorology, botany, zoology, human biology, marine biology, oceanography, are pretty common ones. You could also go with something like animal science (more focused on production ag, but NOT a stupidly hard class) if that would be slightly more interesting. 

 

There are more esoteric ones as well -- for example, one of the books on my shelf is "man, energy, and society", which was a text for a non-science-majors class in college that I picked up at the book sale. 

[bluebonnetgirl]

Kiana,

 

Of the ones you mentioned, probably Astronomy would be the most interesting to my son.  

[City Mouse]

Even in my state that is consistently ranked 48th or lower in education, a standard high school diploma requires Algebra II and 3 years of science, but from what I have seen and heard, the quality of many schols Algerbra II is really more like a somewhat advanced algebra I class. Only Biology is required by name, and 2 of the three have to be lab classes. My DS is not planning to take chemistry in high school. For science he has physical science and biology, and he wants to take marine science or maybe environmental science next year. - We are not planning for him to attend. 4-year college right after graduation. He will probably work for a year or two and then maybe start with community college once he has a better idea of what he would like to study.

[Bootsie]

A business major will need Algebra II; many majors will require a statistics course that will have Algebra II as a pre-requisite.  His college math will be much easier for him if he has had exposure to Algebra II.  He also needs at least a third science.  It does not have to be chemistry, I don't know how forensic science will be viewed, so I would want to have an additional traditional science course on his high school transcript.

[frogger]

I find requirements super frustrating too and I have an artsy daughter who also hates science and math. I attempt to redeem the requirements.

 

 

There are useful things to know in all the sciences. For example, this year she is doing Biology. We are using a lot of Great Courses and books that are listed in the booklet that comes with the course or books from Guesthollow (though I don't agree with all of them)and I'm focusing on making her science literate. I find she gets more info from well presented lectures and books on particular topics than a text book. I joked with her that I don't want her signing a petition to get the dihydrogen monoxide out of the water supply like that joke white house petition.

 

So I focus a lot on what is needed for life. We got an Anatomy course and may get another one since she likes this lecturer. Everyone has a body after all and will talk to a doctor whether you plan on being a STEM major or not. A Nutrition course and an Ecology one (although that one was boring her so she was remembering nothing). We are adding in books about GMOs or other controversial stuff and reading different opinions. I'm teaching thinking skills and how to look for credentials and see if the arguments make sense which often requires her to know more but also makes it more interesting to find out. A textbook would put her to sleep. She would have zero interest and it would be pointless because she wouldn't remember any of it. Not only does this make it more interesting but it seems more relevant to her and she can see the usefulness of it.

 

We have a state history requirement. Though I do think that is a useful thing especially if they were going to stay here as adults and vote I'm not sure it is the MOST useful with our limited time especially not knowing where they will end up living after college. So because I'm all for redeeming requirements I'm turning into a major research project because where else do you have more source material then researching your own state? It should also give them a better idea of local politics etc.

 

So I would check for requirements first. Many colleges don't require a full 4 years of math and science but going down to 3 years science or math will restrict your choices. Going down to 2 years will restrict them further.

 

Secondly, if you do want to meet a requirement you can find the way to meet it that will end up useful to your child and maybe more interesting. That's why we homeschool right?

[madteaparty]

I asked a similar question re calculus, and was told best to do it. i have a bit more time though.

[mytwomonkeys]

Unfortunately, even non-STEM majors have to take some math in college (at least I did). If your son doesn’t have the required classes to get accepted, they will probably have him take remedial math courses (which cost money but won’t give him credits). So either way he will probably still need to continue with more advanced math beyond Algebra 1. It’s either now (or later when he starts college). I would think doing it at home where he can take his time would be better suited for him. You could also talk to the college or community college that he wants to attend, their requirements are really all that matters.

[EKS]

If you decide he needs another math, you could do something like Mathematics: A Human Endeavor.  

 

And for science, I'd find something he's at least somewhat interested in (like astronomy?) and then do something like the Great Courses astronomy coupled with readings from Neil deGrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan (and others like this--there are tons of great books out there about astronomy).  The output could be in the form of art (drawings, paintings, sculptures, models, etc) rather than tests and essays.

[SparklyUnicorn]

People will say yes, but I don't really understand the reasoning entirely except that some (maybe most) colleges will expect to see both of these.  When I went to the local CC to sign up for a basic stat's class (I have a BA already this was for fun) they opened up some book to tell me the pre req and they claimed it was Algebra 2.  Oh brother.  I did take the class and there is no way that Algebra 2 is a necessity for that course.  But that stat course is a typical course chosen for students having to take some sort of math in college, but who don't really want to take math or are majoring in something like psychology. 

 

In terms of chemistry, you could just do a less grueling course. 

[bluebonnetgirl]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I found some encouragement and nuggets of wisdom here.

[luuknam]

When I went to the local CC to sign up for a basic stat's class (I have a BA already this was for fun) they opened up some book to tell me the pre req and they claimed it was Algebra 2.  Oh brother.  I did take the class and there is no way that Algebra 2 is a necessity for that course.  But that stat course is a typical course chosen for students having to take some sort of math in college, but who don't really want to take math or are majoring in something like psychology. 

 

 

I think the reason they tell you algebra 2 is a necessity is that that course (ime) has a very high failure rate. So, the idea is that if you've had algebra 2 you're more likely to remember/know enough algebra to be able to pass if than if you only had algebra 1. But yeah, if you're rock solid in algebra 1, I agree you should probably be fine.