Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo
- - - - -

How is this ethical/legal- school teachers


75 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#51 SparklyUnicorn

SparklyUnicorn

    Beekeeping Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37510 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:51 PM

I don't know.  As a matter of principle I'd say no to providing supplies.  They spend more per student here than most places.  Taxes are INSANELY high and now you want me to pay more?  Where in heck is the money going?  Oh yeah..that's right...the super thinks he is worth 250 grand (not).

 

I just think situations like these stink. 


  • Scoutermom and luuknam like this

#52 Alicia64

Alicia64

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5107 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:49 PM

THIS is when you bring in the local news. This is ridiculous.

 

TOTALLY agree with this. I have a background in media, if you'd like any advice.

 

Alley


  • SparklyUnicorn and Sandwalker like this

#53 Scoutermom

Scoutermom

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6343 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:08 PM

I don't know.  As a matter of principle I'd say no to providing supplies.  They spend more per student here than most places.  Taxes are INSANELY high and now you want me to pay more?  Where in heck is the money going?  Oh yeah..that's right...the super thinks he is worth 250 grand (not).

 

I just think situations like these stink. 

"She mentioned some of the stuff they were demanding he have for experiments. Like those large rubbermaid container lids (just the lids...) or matchbox cars. She said there was no way they were buy 80+ matchbox cars and she got people from her church to donate their kids old cars. But like I said, he doesn't write the experiments so he can't change them up."

 

I cut and pasted Mimm's statement because I couldn't multiquote for some reason.

 

This is what I was referring to. If a note is sent home saying "We need rubbermaid container lids for an experiment. Can you send one with your student next week?" Don't most people have access to a container lid? Don't most people have a little toy car lying around? If the supplies are things that people might have on hand, wouldn't it be worth it ask in advance? Save the money?

 

__

I agree that some school admins are overpaid. There needs to be some reality tossed into the mix in some districts.


  • SparklyUnicorn likes this

#54 SparklyUnicorn

SparklyUnicorn

    Beekeeping Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37510 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:13 PM

"She mentioned some of the stuff they were demanding he have for experiments. Like those large rubbermaid container lids (just the lids...) or matchbox cars. She said there was no way they were buy 80+ matchbox cars and she got people from her church to donate their kids old cars. But like I said, he doesn't write the experiments so he can't change them up."

 

I cut and pasted Mimm's statement because I couldn't multiquote for some reason.

 

This is what I was referring to. If a note is sent home saying "We need rubbermaid container lids for an experiment. Can you send one with your student next week?" Don't most people have access to a container lid? Don't most people have a little toy car lying around? If the supplies are things that people might have on hand, wouldn't it be worth it ask in advance? Save the money?

 

__

I agree that some school admins are overpaid. There needs to be some reality tossed into the mix in some districts.

 

Not necessarily.  Story of my life.  All the "experiments" I've dealt with over the years that require "stuff we all have"...I never had any of it.  It was maddening.  I stopped doing them and just bought kits. 

 

I think this could be quite exhausting for a teacher (to secure a mish mash of supplies from various people..not knowing if he'll get anything at all...on zero budget...).  It just all makes me think the school district doesn't actually care one darn bit if learning is happening. 


  • elegantlion, Eliana, natalie and 4 others like this

#55 Mainer

Mainer

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 340 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:22 PM

Wow... half of his income... really? I don't see how he's mentally able to do that. 

 

I'm a special education teacher at a private school. I just found out that the starting salary of a public school teacher in my area is 20k more than what I earn, and I have a Master's! So many people think private school teachers make more than public school teachers. It just depends on the area, and the school. In Maine where I'm from, hardly any teachers start at higher than $35,000 a year. 

 

I buy some things, but I'm reimbursed for everything necessary for my class. I would be livid if I was required to buy any essentials for my classroom. As far as a classroom library, I can't afford one, so we just use the school library. Maybe I'm not the "cool teacher," but until teachers are paid more, I'm not doing that.

 

 



#56 Mainer

Mainer

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 340 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:24 PM

There's a serious culture of self-sacrifice among teachers. Somehow we're okay with (or at least not protesting too much) that admins make $150,000 when teachers make $30,000. Do principals REALLY work five times as hard as teachers? I'm all for higher pay for greater responsibility and education level... but come on. The gap is not THAT large!

I say bring on the local news, too :)


  • Eliana, heatherwith3, Mimm and 3 others like this

#57 Mainer

Mainer

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 340 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:25 PM

One more comment before I get off my high horse. I recently listened to a podcast about extreme financial transparency in organizations. What happens if everyone knows everyone else's salary? If everyone knows the electric bill, the mortgage on the building, the income from donations... etc. An interesting thought when it comes to schools.


  • Julie Smith, Mimm and Sandwalker like this

#58 SparklyUnicorn

SparklyUnicorn

    Beekeeping Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37510 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:30 PM

One more comment before I get off my high horse. I recently listened to a podcast about extreme financial transparency in organizations. What happens if everyone knows everyone else's salary? If everyone knows the electric bill, the mortgage on the building, the income from donations... etc. An interesting thought when it comes to schools.

 

They don't break it down quite to that detail, but here they mail out a breakdown of the budget.  So we do know salaries, building expenses, supplies, etc.


  • Library Momma and luuknam like this

#59 Zinnia

Zinnia

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1253 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:20 PM

I haven't read the thread. But I'm pretty sure that's something to take up with the union, and to organize a strike.

 

 

 

Teachers here don't have unions, and they are year to year employees.  One of my friends got in a squabble with her (new) principal over something small that turned into something big.  Of course, she wasn't happy with the situation, but she thought it would blow over, and it would work itself out in time.  She didn't get a contract when it came time in the spring.  No notice, just no new contract.  She has been a teacher 20 years, 10 at that school.  And nothing she can do, because year to year employees.



#60 Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5206 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:23 PM

They don't break it down quite to that detail, but here they mail out a breakdown of the budget. So we do know salaries, building expenses, supplies, etc.


A local school here's finance guy just got jailed for embezzling $1million. He managed to hide everything under these generic categories for a long time. Finally he got caught by putting through a transaction for iPads and someone at the school pointed out the kids don't have iPads. But he got away with a lot before that.
  • SparklyUnicorn likes this

#61 Happy2BaMom

Happy2BaMom

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 590 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:33 PM

 

 

This is what I was referring to. If a note is sent home saying "We need rubbermaid container lids for an experiment. Can you send one with your student next week?" Don't most people have access to a container lid? Don't most people have a little toy car lying around? If the supplies are things that people might have on hand, wouldn't it be worth it ask in advance? Save the money?

 

 

 

When I was teaching 4th grade, I worked at least 50 hours a week, each and every week. And there were still another 10 hours of work that really was needed to move all students along as they should be. I really can't imagine adding in trying to garner 28+ container lids, toy cars, whathaveyou from 28+ different homes (half of whom would send nothing anyway, the other half would attempt but it would just be a mish-mash of unmatched items) for different science experiments. Not to mention that some people would want their things back, some wouldn't, some items would get lost, etc. Teachers really don't have the time to add in yet more non-teaching tasks. I think if more parents volunteered, they might be able to manage such a project, but I only had one volunteer, who only came in a few times the entire year. 

 

Sourcing things cheaply takes time. Kind of like shopping at a thrift store vs. the mall. You can end up with very similar stuff, but only if you've got a lot of time to dig through the racks. 


  • Eliana likes this

#62 eternalsummer

eternalsummer

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4411 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:31 PM

Teachers here don't have unions, and they are year to year employees.  One of my friends got in a squabble with her (new) principal over something small that turned into something big.  Of course, she wasn't happy with the situation, but she thought it would blow over, and it would work itself out in time.  She didn't get a contract when it came time in the spring.  No notice, just no new contract.  She has been a teacher 20 years, 10 at that school.  And nothing she can do, because year to year employees.

 

Well, to be fair, a lot of employees live with this sort of situation.  Get in a squabble with the boss, might get fired.  


  • StephanieZ and SparklyUnicorn like this

#63 DawnM

DawnM

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22739 posts

Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

I call BS.  In my 20 years of working in Public Education, I have yet to find anyone who spends anywhere close to that amount.  Unless he is independently wealthy, there is no way.....

 

What do the other science teachers at the school do?  Certainly not everyone can spend half their salary.  How does he feed his family?  

 

Nope, not buying it.


  • creekland, kitten18, Library Momma and 4 others like this

#64 luuknam

luuknam

    Young and immature

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7439 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:55 AM

This is what I was referring to. If a note is sent home saying "We need rubbermaid container lids for an experiment. Can you send one with your student next week?" Don't most people have access to a container lid? Don't most people have a little toy car lying around? If the supplies are things that people might have on hand, wouldn't it be worth it ask in advance? Save the money?

 

 

Do you have any idea what it's like having no money because of an unemployed bipolar spouse, a baby, and an autistic preschooler, depression and an anxiety disorder, and then having the stress of being asked for these things, and then the guilt because you don't always have the ability to send those things in, and then the anger because you shouldn't have to donate these things, and all of that kind of stuff? 

 

Yes, I know that most people aren't in that kind of situation. But teachers sending out notes requesting stuff don't tend to think about who they send the notes to - they send them to everyone. Like the poorest most vulnerable people need to have it rubbed in. 

 

So, either think about who you're making these demands of before sending out notes asking for 'voluntary' (but really almost mandatory) donations, or just don't send out those notes. Take that shit up with the school board, the union, the media, I don't care who - it's supposed to be a FAPE - FREE and appropriate education. 


  • Eliana, 8circles, Mimm and 2 others like this

#65 J-rap

J-rap

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11674 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:29 AM

Half his paycheck is of course terrible.

 

But thinking it over, even when my oldest were in school at that age and did regular class experiments, it wasn't the type that high schoolers or middle schoolers did that required lots of materials and equipment.  They mostly consisted of free resources, very simple and minimalistic.  Probably the most costly item they used was a pack of plant seeds.



#66 Sandwalker

Sandwalker

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 405 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:03 AM



Because as a society (multiple societies since we're crossing international borders here) we just plain don't value children because they are not economic producers.

This is why child rearing, child care, child teaching, etc. are not respected or well compensated occupations. Children in school are regularly subjected to conditions that most adults would consider intolerable.

But they're just kids so it's OK.


In addition, women are usually the children's teachers and child-rearers, so the compensation is lower, as in most traditionally female-dominated careers.
  • 8circles likes this

#67 Zinnia

Zinnia

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1253 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:13 AM

Well, to be fair, a lot of employees live with this sort of situation. Get in a squabble with the boss, might get fired.

Right. Everyone lives with this.

But somehow society has this expectation that teachers are different and don't have these ramifications.

I believe the guy if he says he feels like he has no choice. And that's why teachers end up leaving the profession

Edited by Zinnia, 08 December 2017 - 06:15 AM.

  • Eliana, 8circles and Mimm like this

#68 DawnM

DawnM

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22739 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:15 AM

In addition, women are usually the children's teachers and child-rearers, so the compensation is lower, as in most traditionally female-dominated careers.

 

When I was single, I walked into a district that had just negotiated their contracts via a strike.  The pay was decent and I was able to get by just fine. My salary went up through the years, and DH quickly surpassed me salary wise.

 

Then we moved.  Yes, the cost of living was lower, but Yowza!  I am now making just about half of what I would make (if I had stayed) in my last state/job.  And the benefits for retirement here STINK.

 

I am tired of the "Well, teaching is traditionally a 2nd income anyway, so suck it up" mentality I get around here.  It is awful.  Is it any wonder why we are near the bottom of the US Barrel for education????


Edited by DawnM, 08 December 2017 - 06:16 AM.

  • Eliana, 8circles, dmmetler and 3 others like this

#69 dmmetler

dmmetler

    Chasing snakes!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14265 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:05 AM

Do you have any idea what it's like having no money because of an unemployed bipolar spouse, a baby, and an autistic preschooler, depression and an anxiety disorder, and then having the stress of being asked for these things, and then the guilt because you don't always have the ability to send those things in, and then the anger because you shouldn't have to donate these things, and all of that kind of stuff?

Yes, I know that most people aren't in that kind of situation. But teachers sending out notes requesting stuff don't tend to think about who they send the notes to - they send them to everyone. Like the poorest most vulnerable people need to have it rubbed in.

So, either think about who you're making these demands of before sending out notes asking for 'voluntary' (but really almost mandatory) donations, or just don't send out those notes. Take that shit up with the school board, the union, the media, I don't care who - it's supposed to be a FAPE - FREE and appropriate education.


And that’s why I spent a lot of my teaching career begging to friends, relatives, DH’s co-workers and writing grants. Not sending requests home with the kids didn’t magically make supplies appear. They just meant I had to source them myself.

And, when I started teaching, my income, for a family as small as 4,would have qualified for free lunch.

#70 Scoutermom

Scoutermom

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6343 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:17 AM

Do you have any idea what it's like having no money because of an unemployed bipolar spouse, a baby, and an autistic preschooler, depression and an anxiety disorder, and then having the stress of being asked for these things, and then the guilt because you don't always have the ability to send those things in, and then the anger because you shouldn't have to donate these things, and all of that kind of stuff? 

 

Yes, I know that most people aren't in that kind of situation. But teachers sending out notes requesting stuff don't tend to think about who they send the notes to - they send them to everyone. Like the poorest most vulnerable people need to have it rubbed in. 

 

So, either think about who you're making these demands of before sending out notes asking for 'voluntary' (but really almost mandatory) donations, or just don't send out those notes. Take that shit up with the school board, the union, the media, I don't care who - it's supposed to be a FAPE - FREE and appropriate education. 

Actually, yes, I do. Not those exact circumstances but yes.

 

I was thinking about how the teacher could reduce his expenses based on the statement that he is spending 50% of his income on compulsory experiments. The school and the school district are to blame; no teacher should ever be put into this situation.  I am not saying that my thinking-out-loud brainstorming was the answer to the situation. I simply suggested that maybe he could reach out to the families for assistance.  If the OP was given truthful information about the situation, this teacher is going to have to choose his frustration- spend money, ask for help, or not do the experiments. It seems to me like this school district has a lot more going on behind the scenes that needs fixing than simply a too small budget. There are no easy fixes here. I am truly sorry if some of you think I am being unfair or insensitive I was just trying to participate in the thread by offering a possible solution to the teacher.


Edited by Scoutermom, 08 December 2017 - 10:28 AM.

  • creekland, vonfirmath and Sandwalker like this

#71 luuknam

luuknam

    Young and immature

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7439 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:26 AM

I was just trying to participate in the thread by offering a possible solution to the teacher.

 

 

Gotcha. I'm still thinking sending a note home with why there are 4 desks too few etc with contact info for the school board would probably work fine as well - some people will probably actually bother to harass the school board, and some (probably mostly the same people, but who knows) would probably contact the teacher with questions how they can help out (heck, I probably would have even back then, but at least it wouldn't seem mandatory to send in every single item at the most inconvenient-to-me time possible). And if this situation is really true as written, you really need something much more drastic than parents sending in a couple of matchbox cars and a tupperware lid. 


  • SparklyUnicorn and Sandwalker like this

#72 Sandwalker

Sandwalker

    Hive Mind Level 5 Worker: Forager Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 405 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:58 PM

Actually, yes, I do. Not those exact circumstances but yes.

I was thinking about how the teacher could reduce his expenses based on the statement that he is spending 50% of his income on compulsory experiments. The school and the school district are to blame; no teacher should ever be put into this situation. I am not saying that my thinking-out-loud brainstorming was the answer to the situation. I simply suggested that maybe he could reach out to the families for assistance. If the OP was given truthful information about the situation, this teacher is going to have to choose his frustration- spend money, ask for help, or not do the experiments. It seems to me like this school district has a lot more going on behind the scenes that needs fixing than simply a too small budget. There are no easy fixes here. I am truly sorry if some of you think I am being unfair or insensitive I was just trying to participate in the thread by offering a possible solution to the teacher.

When my kids were in elementary, it was a magnet school, so many of the neighborhood kids who attended were extremely poor. The teachers regularly asked parents for donations for this or that, and those who could give, did. We were not rolling in the dough then by any stretch, but gave when we could.

I don't think the parents who couldn't donate were bummed out; I know my daughter's best friend's mom was very happy that her daughter could go on the field trips and do the science experiments that she couldn't have afforded. I don't think the teachers contributed a lot money-wise, and we wouldn't have expected them to.

#73 SparklyUnicorn

SparklyUnicorn

    Beekeeping Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37510 posts

Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:45 PM

Do you have any idea what it's like having no money because of an unemployed bipolar spouse, a baby, and an autistic preschooler, depression and an anxiety disorder, and then having the stress of being asked for these things, and then the guilt because you don't always have the ability to send those things in, and then the anger because you shouldn't have to donate these things, and all of that kind of stuff? 

 

Yes, I know that most people aren't in that kind of situation. But teachers sending out notes requesting stuff don't tend to think about who they send the notes to - they send them to everyone. Like the poorest most vulnerable people need to have it rubbed in. 

 

So, either think about who you're making these demands of before sending out notes asking for 'voluntary' (but really almost mandatory) donations, or just don't send out those notes. Take that shit up with the school board, the union, the media, I don't care who - it's supposed to be a FAPE - FREE and appropriate education. 

 

Yeah I sort of do, but from the perspective of the child and not the parent.  It's brutally hard.  :grouphug:


  • luuknam likes this

#74 AngieW in Texas

AngieW in Texas

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6607 posts

Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:59 AM

I have never heard of anything this bad in my area and I know teachers in a lot of area school districts.

 

My district is not a wealthy district and my school is a Title I school.

 

We are given a curriculum roadmap that has a lot of suggested activities and labs and graphic organizers (some units are better stocked with suggestions than others), but we have complete freedom in how we teach it. At our school, none of us on the chemistry team use the horrible textbook. We do have to try to keep on pace with the curriculum roadmap because there are district-wide assessments.

 

I have spent a lot of my own money on supplies for experiments, but these are experiments that I chose. The money has generally been for food-based experiments, like when I used Oreo Thins, regular, and Double Stuffs for isotopes and when I used S'mores to introduce stoichiometry. The Oreo lab ended up costing about $50 and I think the S'mores lab was about the same price (that was longer ago).

 

I have also spent a ton of money on dry erase markers, composition notebooks, golf pencils (a lot cheaper than regular pencils), and tape. Every 6-9 weeks I have to order a class set of dry erase markers (30), golf pencils (box of 100), and tape (6 rolls). I bought 50 composition notebooks for my students this year and I have only 5 left. At least this year I knew what I was in for and bought them when they were $0.50. Last year was my first year to do interactive notebooks and I bought just 25 at the sale price and paid a full dollar for all of the rest of the notebooks that I purchased for my students. The notebooks are graded, so they have to be supplied if the students don't have them.

 

 



#75 Heigh Ho

Heigh Ho

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11939 posts

Posted 09 December 2017 - 11:02 AM

Agree with previous poster ..story makes no sense...science teacher not classroom teacher, but pays for seats in one classroom;  classroom only has 20 students...sounds like a mishmash and the wine was flowing...

 

anyhoo, here we have 30 to 35 in an elementary class, and all classes are fully included so there will be several aides, a para, and a head teacher

science equipment is shared among districts and is done in classroom stations, one classroom at a time...the sharing economy essentially

head teachers do swap classrooms for ss and science in gr 3-5; PTO provides each head classroom teacher with $200 for supplies

teachers may not request anything from students...we aren't title one or wealthy, so the parents have very little

the public librarian gets the english middle and high school lists for reqd summer reading and AP, as students must buy their own, and she asks surrounding Friends groups to donate if they turn up in their donations; same for SAT/ACT/Regents Exams books

 

 



#76 Quill

Quill

    Team Introvert - Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17972 posts

Posted 09 December 2017 - 12:40 PM

Not necessarily. Story of my life. All the "experiments" I've dealt with over the years that require "stuff we all have"...I never had any of it. It was maddening. I stopped doing them and just bought kits.

I think this could be quite exhausting for a teacher (to secure a mish mash of supplies from various people..not knowing if he'll get anything at all...on zero budget...). It just all makes me think the school district doesn't actually care one darn bit if learning is happening.


So true! There was a science teacher at co-op who kept doing an experiment in which the kids were supposed to each bring in 2 2-liter bottles. I was like, “noooooooooo! We do not drink soda hardly ever and I never, ever have this and it drives me bonkers!” I had made a plea to the group in general and another mom, who has six kids said, “tell me about it! I have four kids in that class and we don’t ever have empty soda bottles!” I’m all about the kits that have ever bloomin’ piece of string, penny, nail, empty soda bottle, and q-tip needed. I never have the “common household objects” I’m supposed to have.