Math 180

[Hilltopmom]

Anyone have any experience with the math 180 remedial program?

[OneStepAtATime]

Nope. Off to Google...

[OneStepAtATime]

Ah, I remember that math growth mindset test now...

 

I do not have any experience with the program itself so I cannot speak to how effective it actually is with a student that has a TRUE learning challenge in math (such as dyscalculia).  What I can say is that while I absolutely 100% agree that hard work, positive attitude and a willingness to make mistakes is exceedingly helpful for success in math (or nearly any subject), I know that these are not ALWAYS going to "solve" the struggles a student is having.  In fact, I would propose (having seen this myself) that an instructor or a program who/that continually insists a student who is struggling just needs a better attitude, to work harder and be willing to make mistakes can actually be extremely harmful.  Why?  Because in many cases the instructor/program is not acknowledging just how hard that student IS working.  Possibly harder than anyone else.  So hard that it actually can become abusive to keep insisting that they just need a better attitude and a willingness to work harder and their math issues will miraculously go away.

 

I equate it to someone who has a broken leg being told if they just work harder and have a better attitude and a willingness to break the other leg they can make it up to the top of Mount Everest.  Failure is not an option.  Keep climbing Mount Everest or you really aren't worth anything and you not making it up to the top of that Mountain is entirely your own fault.  I don't mean tell someone not to try.  I just mean acknowledging that their effort is probably FAR greater than an NT person and many times they really have reached a peak of their own and that accomplishment should be just as celebrated as an NT kid making it to the top of Mount Everest.  

 

DD works harder at math than anyone else I know personally.  Every.single.gain. she has made has been hard won.  The assumption that the reason she is still behind grade level in math is strictly due to poor attitude/lack of willingness to make mistakes/lack of willingness to put in a lot of time and effort is plain WRONG and was extremely damaging to her self esteem when she was in school.  She ended up with PTSD and a fight or flight mentality.  We had to start over, with me acknowledging every day that I KNOW she is working hard, really hard, and when she needs a break she gets it, and HER Mount Everests will be different from another student's but they are absolutely just as important and should be just as valued.  For instance, when she could finally measure to the quarter inch, in HIGH SCHOOL that was a Mount Everest for her.  No NT teacher or program would have recognized that but I did.  And we absolutely celebrated reaching that milestone.

 

But back to this program...I have no idea how effective it is.  I hope someone else can chime in with real information.  I just thought I would share how I feel about their opening premise and offer a word of caution.  It sounds like this program is really designed more for NT kids that struggle a bit, not kids with significant neurologically based deficits in math.  I could absolutely be wrong, though.

[Lecka]

Would this be for at school?

 

I think it makes a big difference.

 

I think teachers bring a *lot* to programs.

 

I would ask who would teach her, the training of that person, the experience of that person.

 

Ask "what would you do if she completes a section but isn't ready to move on?" If they are just going to check a box that they did the program with her every day; that is light years from if she doesn't understand something and so the teacher brings in other materials. So to some extent -- is she having time with a teacher able to bring in other materials and methods if it is needed?

 

Then separately if someone is familiar with a program, it can be implemented better than if the program is new to them. That is a real thing.

 

Can you have a heart-to-heart with the teacher? Is this something the teacher thinks would be good to try? Or does the teacher feel very confident it's a good fit for your daughter? How will the teacher evaluate if this program is working for your daughter? When? Maybe you can schedule a meeting for two months down the road and see if there is any new skill learned or change between a pre-test score and a post-test score. Or see if you notice a change in your daughter's feelings/attitude at school and at home.

 

I think too if you ask the teacher "why do you recommend this" that will give some clarity because you hear the thought process and can see if it is going to fit with your goals and priorities. Then that gives you a chance to communicate better with the teacher where you are coming from if you don't want the same thing. I think sometimes teachers "think" we (parents) want a certain thing, but then maybe we (parents) aren't clear exactly on what we are "asking" for and pros and cons. Like -- I might say "I want this." The teacher might say "okay we can do that." I might not realize I am giving up growth/opportunity in another area; but the teacher thinks I realize that. That has happened with me before.

[Lecka]

I also think in context, that "building students' confidence" is kind-of code for "this is a remedial program, and yes we are going back to 2nd-3rd grade math."

 

I see that cheery kind of thing sometimes when the context is like a response to "but these kids are old so we can't go back, we have to keep them moving." And so then they're like -- "okay, so, we are going back to earlier math, but that's okay, because we are building confidence!"

 

That is me being optimistic, but I have seen that kind of "we are building confidence!" thing when it is really about going back to stuff that is years earlier and it makes some people get nervous and think "we can't go back."

 

Edit: I think it is also a concern that kids get demoralized when they are going back to earlier math concepts, so having a component of keeping kids from not getting demoralized I think is kind-of popular/expected for school-y programs. Bc I think people also see kids who will refuse to work before they will do stuff that is embarassing to them.

 

Anyway -- hopefully it is a real, actual, legitimate intervention program and not just some pretend type of thing that isn't really intervention. I don't know. I would see what tier it is and then see if it had any research or teacher support that looks good. If part is done on computer, it makes a big difference now kids are supervised and supported. I think it can be good or bad depending how it's set up at school (is help available, is there supervision so kids can't game the system), and then just how well it works for a kid. I think it could be worth giving a shot, but with checking up.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Lecka

[Hilltopmom]

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

It would be for at school, not something they suggested, because right now they have zero ideas and have never tried to remediate a kid so low. I’m just googling “programs for remedial math†and sifting through what comes up for suggestions to give to them.

Kind of desperate here and was hoping something new had come along they could easily implement without having to design a program from scratch for her....

Edited December 3, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Hilltopmom]

One step-

I totally get what you’re saying about Mt Everest and our kids.

[Lecka]

Maybe she could take a pre-test for it?

 

If there is a good teacher I think it could be good for the teacher to design a program for her. I think it can be hard for teachers to learn/manage a program sometimes, and maybe they know things to pull from to design a program.

 

Honestly I bet she is some in-between level, that they may not see as much. I bet she's not so low to them.

 

But I can see thinking a program could be good instead of teacher-designed. But I think honestly try to cooperate with the teacher. If the teacher thinks it looks good and could be implemented -- that's good.

 

I do think really look at the tier and the description of what kids the program is designed for. Honestly is your daughter in the target group? If so then that is good. If not she will need extra support to do the program and that is if it can work even with extra support. If you can find a web page that tells that, I would show that to the teacher and see what the teacher thinks.

 

I tend to have a worry that some "programs" can lead to more administrative type stuff for teachers and eat into the time they spend 1:1 (or 1:4 or whatever) and I would never want to do something that might have great! features! but really have the teacher spending half the time not actually teaching. I am actually paranoid about that.

[Lecka]

I think too -- unless she just happens to do well with computers, there is no magic program. She isn't behind from just missing an earlier concept and getting behind. She isn't behind from having a bad teacher or missing school too much. There are more of magic programs for that kind of thing.

 

When there isn't a magic program then either the program can really be adapted and had adaptation built in..... or it's going to go back to the teacher trying different things and bringing in different materials anyway.

 

And then I think it can still be nice to have that kind of structure and maybe have progress-monitoring built in, but I don't think that's necessarily better than a teacher-designed program. At all. But it is something.

[Lecka]

I am paranoid as I have had an experience where I felt like ---- okay; so they are doing the program; but my son isn't actually learning! And then now it is a lot more loosey goosey but my son is actually learning with a more teacher-designed program.

 

But his teacher is very focused on his level so I think that makes a big difference; my son is right at a level the teacher has been working with for years.

[Lecka]

Good luck, I am curious how things go! Looking ahead for my son ;)

[Hilltopmom]

Yeah, she will need a good teacher to plan something. I’d prefer her not on the computer because she doesn’t learn well independently.

It’s not just gaps, it’s disability, yup.

I’m still working on getting them to even agree to set her up with a teacher. It’s looking like it’s gonna be a TA, if anyone.

“No staff available†is the excuse currently, but her sped teacher is on board and sounds like she will go to bat for her, so that’s good.

 

I’m hoping someone official will say in a mtg, email, or on paper that she needs it but that staffing is the hold up- because that I can take to the board and push back on for legal issues... no staff means they need to hire someone not just not give the kid what they need....

Don’t mess with a mom who is also a special ed teacher and knows the law.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Hilltopmom]

I asked if there’s actually an AIS teacher from the elementary school who has a free period to come over to the high school , because that’s really where her level is. We’ll see.

[Lecka]

I mean -- if they have to bc they don't have staffing at her school. But it doesn't really make sense that they don't have someone for her level. Come on, I'm sure she's not the *only* student *ever* at her school at her level.

 

What I can feel like is -- they get used to kids who have made very little progress and then aren't used to seeing kids who actually *have* made progress despite having more severe problems. Bc they are used to those kids just staying at a very very basic level?

 

It is so frustrating.

 

I think you have got positives and just need to keep going through the process, it sounds like you are getting a lot done to be honest!

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

It would be for at school, not something they suggested, because right now they have zero ideas and have never tried to remediate a kid so low. I’m just googling “programs for remedial math†and sifting through what comes up for suggestions to give to them.

Kind of desperate here and was hoping something new had come along they could easily implement without having to design a program from scratch for her....

Have you tried Googling programs for dyscalculia?

 

And have you showed them options like Ronit Bird and Dynamo Math?

 

Also, I can't recall but have you read My 13th Winter?  You might suggest that whoever her math teacher is could read that and How the Brain Learns Mathematics to have a bit better understanding?

[Hilltopmom]

I did suggest Ronit Bird this week at conferences.

My Thirteenth Winter is a good idea too. Dd is reading it right now.

 

The staffing isn’t so much for her level but more that the schedules are all full right now so there isn’t a teacher with an open period to work with her.

[OneStepAtATime]

I really wish there were a program set up like Barton Reading and Spelling, taking a student from the most basic basics all the way through High School level material, broken down not by grade but by layers of knowledge/skill sets, and carefully scripted for a layman to implement, with tons of support for the tutor, and that can be started by many ages without feeling like the village idiot, but so far I have not found anything like that for a student with serious math deficits.  Dynamo Math and Ronit Bird come closest, IMHO, but they aren't the same.

 

I hope you find something that works to help her.  Getting her instructors to a point where they at least understand her struggles will hopefully help some.

 

Hugs and good luck.

Edited December 3, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Lecka]

I know what you mean!

[Lecka]

The thing about reading/decoding -- to some extent it is getting kids to a 3rd grade level. At a 3rd grade level kids are reading/decoding pretty well, a lot of reading past that is comprehension related. There is still more root words and affixes, and more uncommon spelling stuff, but a 3rd grade level is pretty good as far as reading/decoding.

 

And it is all fairly concrete/rote, which is hard when rote learning is hard, but it is limited, too.

 

And then for math it's like -- getting to a 3rd grade level gets you to multiplication, division, and fractions. It's just not nearly as far in math compared to how far in reading decoding the first few levels of Barton will get through.

 

But still Barton is so nice!!!!!!!!!!!

[OneStepAtATime]

The thing about reading/decoding -- to some extent it is getting kids to a 3rd grade level. At a 3rd grade level kids are reading/decoding pretty well, a lot of reading past that is comprehension related. There is still more root words and affixes, and more uncommon spelling stuff, but a 3rd grade level is pretty good as far as reading/decoding.

 

And it is all fairly concrete/rote, which is hard when rote learning is hard, but it is limited, too.

 

And then for math it's like -- getting to a 3rd grade level gets you to multiplication, division, and fractions. It's just not nearly as far in math compared to how far in reading decoding the first few levels of Barton will get through.

 

But still Barton is so nice!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good point. 

 

With reading/decoding, the vast majority of words used frequently in our language can be learned by getting through Level 4 of Barton (which does not do much rote learning, by the way, but does give a student the tools to gain decoding and fluency skills).  It also helps students to internalize all the little linking words that many dyslexics skip over entirely, often then vastly changing the meaning of a reading passage and hindering comprehension and the ability to understand more advanced words based on context.  The rest of the levels are tremendously helpful for improving reading for higher level material but if a student can get through Level 4 that opens up a ton of possibilities that were not there before.   Since the bulk of the words decoded in a given text should be understood by that point, even if the student has not yet been explicitly taught how to decode more advanced words, they may be able to figure out the rest of the words from context or at least enough of them to understand the general material being presented. 

 

Along these lines I thought I would link a video that DS finds interesting...

 

 

 

However, with math, while successfully mastering and internalizing 3rd/4th grade level math material gives a student a LOT of necessary skills for daily life, the skills needed to get through Middle School/High School are going to be much harder and need a type of thinking that may not be possible for everyone.  This does not mean they are stupid.  Far from it.  They may even be gifted in other areas, even possibly certain areas of math.  It just means that this area of weakness is not something that can necessarily be overcome with really great instruction.  I honestly think a maths disability is actually a lot harder to overcome than a reading one, even with "proper" instruction.   

 

When DD was in school it was her inability to read and spell that impacted EVERYTHING she was doing in school.  Every subject.  I thought that would be our biggest hurdle once we started homeschooling.  I was wrong.  While tackling Barton Reading and Spelling was no picnic, and she had to put in tremendous effort to learn to read/spell, changes happened rapidly.  By mid 3rd level of Barton her reading and spelling ability had jumped from Kindergarten level in 5th grade to essentially grade level by mid-7th.  Every level of Barton since then has just added to her skill sets.  She knows it.  She may not like the lessons but she absolutely recognizes what that program did for her and would frequently ASK me for a lesson.

 

Math was a struggle when she was in school and during our first year of homeschooling but I genuinely believed that once we started working one on one at home with materials that were better laid out, sort of like with Barton, it would all smooth out.  Not be easy.  Barton wasn't easy.  It would just all gel better once we started homeschooling with a program that was more friendly towards students with math struggles.  I was so wrong.  DD has made tremendous progress.  Don't get me wrong.  But math is still a very hard subject for her.  It is almost like with Reading there wasn't anything missing from her brain, she just needed a different, more systematic approach, but with math there is something MISSING.  Like others have a set of tools they can use that she has no access to.

 

Maybe it is sort of like if everyone else was born with hands but DD was born without hands.  Her arms end at the wrists.  Tasks that others find simple are things that she cannot do or has to find ways to complete without those critical tools.  She has to find other ways to do them and in some instances there ISN'T another way.  I'm not sure that is a good explanation but I'm out of words.  Sorry.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Lecka]

Autism has a lot of similarities. I have definitely lamented that there is no equivalent of Barton for autism.

[Lecka]

Also; with what I said about rote learning, I really meant that I think comprehension is a lot harder to teach than decoding.

 

I can teach decoding.

 

Comprehension is a lot harder for me, and materials I use are more like "here's an idea for a book talk to have about a book you read with your child" and that's just a lot harder for me than doing something that's more exactly laid out for me as a teacher.

 

I think for other people though they would have an easier time doing book talks... the people who find Barton really boring lol.

[Kanin]

On their neuropsych reports, many of the kids at my school have a recommendation for Semple math. I think it's been talked about here before. I tried to see some samples online, but wasn't successful. Could be worth a google:  http://www.semplemath.com/faqs.html

 

It's not an online program - not sure if that's important to the school.

[Kanin]

My personal favorite is MathUSee, and their website is way better than Semple math. You'd need a teacher to implement the program though, again, not online. Will the teacher be doing instruction? For a struggling student, I'd be wary of a teach-it-yourself online program.