is this a vision therapy issue?

[NorthernBeth]

So, we are working through Barton Level 2. It is going okay, but one thing weird I noticed was that when we are just reading individual words we are fine and it goes smoothly. ( So smoothly I keep wondering why I have been worried.) Then when we switch to simple phonetic readers using the same words we are already studying ( the little Bob books) he finds these far more frustrating.  He will switch names, read in as on,    read sit as sat, etc.   For some reason he always seems to go into this odd hyper gear when it comes to reading books aloud. If reading were the Indy 500 he would totally be winning the race!   He usually seems to deeply resent any attempts to slow him down, and it leads to numerous mistakes.  

 

He can actually read some pretty hard words.  Sometimes.  Very erratic which is why I think he has them memorized.  When he is not guessing.  But a book full of little CVC words , and he is literally tripping over himself trying to read it smoothly, even though the individual words he can read just fine.   I can't figure out if it is the ADHD thing or if it is a tracking problems.  There are times when he is obviously not tracking well.  He is more willing to use a ruler to mask out other text.  But with the Bob books there does not seem to be any need to use a ruler-- it is just one line of text.  

 

The nearest proper place that can do testing is about 5 hours away.  I don't want to go if I don't have to.  On the other hand, all the reading training in the world won't help if he is having some vision issues.  

 

Has anyone else dealt with this-- is it more of a vision thing or is it really more of a hyper/ speed thing? 

 

Any ideas from those who have had children who needed vision therapy?  Was it really obviously needed? Or was it a total surprise that it was needed and helpful/ 

 

 

[EKS]

Have you tried putting a pencil under what he's supposed to be reading?  I always tracked with a pencil (mechanical, with the lead pulled in).  That way if the kid made a mistake, I just tapped the word (or part of the word) to signal them to try again.

 

Anyway, I guess my point is that until he slows down, you won't know if it's a vision problem or something else.

[Hilltopmom]

Have you tried using a cut out cursor like they use in Dancing Bears?

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree, have you tried using a cut out cursore so he only sees one section at a time?

 

As for your questions...

 

1.  No I was not expecting either child to need VT.  Turns out they both have developmental vision issues.

2.  I was not aware that you could have those types of vision issues and still have perfect visual acuity.   DD already needed glasses.  DS passed ALL normal vision tests.  Turns out his visual acuity was perfect but he had significant developmental vision issues.

3.  I had to drive 4 hours to find someone who could actually do a developmental vision evaluation.  It sucked.  But it was worth finally getting answers from someone who actually knew what they were doing.

4.  Could your child be struggling with developmental vision issues?  Yes it is possible.  No idea without an evaluation but yes, it is possible.  

 

Hugs, either way.

[NorthernBeth]

I agree, have you tried using a cut out cursore so he only sees one section at a time?

 

As for your questions...

 

1.  No I was not expecting either child to need VT.  Turns out they both have developmental vision issues.

2.  I was not aware that you could have those types of vision issues and still have perfect visual acuity.   DD already needed glasses.  DS passed ALL normal vision tests.  Turns out his visual acuity was perfect but he had significant developmental vision issues.

3.  I had to drive 4 hours to find someone who could actually do a developmental vision evaluation.  It sucked.  But it was worth finally getting answers from someone who actually knew what they were doing.

4.  Could your child be struggling with developmental vision issues?  Yes it is possible.  No idea without an evaluation but yes, it is possible.  

 

Hugs, either way.

 

 

Thanks!  I have not tried a cursor.  I"ve read about it on the forums, but not seen it done. The ruler trick can help a fair bit.  He has had his regular vision checked, but when I tried to talk to the optometrist about it, she was just dismissive without actually checking anything.  He needs glasses for distance.  I was wondering if people were automatically checking on developmental vision issues just to be on the safe side, or if there were some obvious issues that led them to pursue the testing.  

[PeterPan]

The hyper/speeding behavior is him covering for a weakness, yes. Which weakness? Might even be a couple. I'm trying to remember, are you the one who tried VT and he ended up refusing? Or was that someone else? I'm getting people mixed up. 

 

With what you're describing, it wouldn't hurt to do some RAN/RAS drills. They're free and they will probably help. I'm not saying they'll solve the whole thing, but they're probably *part* of the mix. And when you improve one part, then sometimes the overall is a little less overwhelming and things chill. Also, I would start doing daily work on working memory. Like play some games each day (movement games, board games, etc.) that improve working memory. Both those pieces are probably involved.

 

For the vision, personally I think it's good for ANY child to be screened for developmental vision. Do you have access to a developmental optometrist? All you can do is have the appt, get him screened, see what they say. Of course it might be part of the mix. Has he been tested for retained reflexes? That's something you can do yourself with youtube and google if you're feeling savvy. Or you can find an OT who specializes in retained reflexes. You have to integrate primitive retained reflexes, the vestibular and visual reflexes, etc. That allows the vision to develop. There's an order to it. 

 

I'm saying that even though it will be good to get vision checked if you can (and you should!) there are a bunch of things you can be doing in the meantime, some of which are free. I would start with those right away. Also start doing some daily mindfulness. Read about it, google Sitting Like a Frog, consider Mighteor, etc. There are lot sof ways to work on it. You can even do simple things like talking about positive things and creating positive mindset before you start.

 

Each one of these things might give you another 10% or 15%. I'm not saying they'd solve it, but if he had 3 or 4 things that each gave you a 10-15% more functional child, they would add up.

 

[Pegs]

The hyper/speeding behavior is him covering for a weakness, yes. Which weakness? Might even be a couple. I'm trying to remember, are you the one who tried VT and he ended up refusing? Or was that someone else? I'm getting people mixed up. 

 

*raises hand*

 

That's me. We've taken a break to work on reflexes first, because DS couldn't do reflexes and vision work simultaneously, and was shutting down.

 

For the OP, we found ourselves a behavioural optometrist (that's the Australian equivalent of COVD) because although DS has his decoding down and fluent, he was fatiguing very quickly when reading for more than a few minutes, sometimes less if the font was small and/or the line spacing was a bit dense. I started a thread about building reading stamina, and folks here suggested we have his vision checked. The OT made the same suggestion after requiring some writing tasks from him. He now reads with prescription lenses, which have really helped, and we'll revisit vision therapy once we've made some headway with the reflexes which have been holding up his visual development.

 

Interestingly, the chiropractor we're seeing now actually picked up saccadic intrusions which the optometrist missed, so do be aware that any assessment done in a few minutes is really only going to give you a snapshot of those few minutes. If you go ahead with a screening or evaluation and it misses something you're seeing at home with the kid you know better than anyone else on the planet, trust your intuition.

[PeterPan]

Have you tried using a cut out cursor like they use in Dancing Bears?

 

Yes to this. Barton includes a reading frame, doesn't it? I don't think we used it, but we really kicked but with the RAN/RAS work, working memory, etc. I think we did something for a while, maybe an index card.

 

The other thing that was golden for controlling the reading and stopping guessing was fluency work. We drilled the words to fluency, the phrases to fluency, the sentences to fluency, all using the Barton lists for the lesson we were on. You're NOT supposed to be bringing in outside reading right now, and what you're experiencing is exactly why! 

 

If you drill to fluency, then he'll have fluency and probably be able to tackle less familiar, totally controlled text of similar difficulty. But you don't have fluency yet on the skills, and you're throwing him into a more complex situation and he's struggling. You need to be sticking exclusively to what is in the Barton materials for right now and drilling to fluency. It sounds like you may need to back up in fact to make sure you have fluency on earlier lessons before you go forward. Be obsessively thorough about this and it will pay off.

[City Mouse]

Yes, it could be a vision issues. Others have already given some good suggestions.

You may also want to look up Irlen Syndrome to see if that sounds like it might be an issues.

[NorthernBeth]

Yes to this. Barton includes a reading frame, doesn't it? I don't think we used it, but we really kicked but with the RAN/RAS work, working memory, etc. I think we did something for a while, maybe an index card.

 

The other thing that was golden for controlling the reading and stopping guessing was fluency work. We drilled the words to fluency, the phrases to fluency, the sentences to fluency, all using the Barton lists for the lesson we were on. You're NOT supposed to be bringing in outside reading right now, and what you're experiencing is exactly why! 

 

If you drill to fluency, then he'll have fluency and probably be able to tackle less familiar, totally controlled text of similar difficulty. But you don't have fluency yet on the skills, and you're throwing him into a more complex situation and he's struggling. You need to be sticking exclusively to what is in the Barton materials for right now and drilling to fluency. It sounds like you may need to back up in fact to make sure you have fluency on earlier lessons before you go forward. Be obsessively thorough about this and it will pay off.

 

Thank-you.  We did use the frame for the reading lists, although not for the phrases.  I didn't think of using it for the little books.  

 

It seemed like he HAD fluency, that's why it seemed okay to bring in the Bob readers-- like we are on vowel a, i, and o-- so I was only using the little Bob books that matched to those vowels.  But we can drill more on the specific Barton phrases if that is better.  

 

Obsessively thorough.  Check.  I will work on that. 

 

I think I am just finding the slow pace very tedious, and was hoping that moving up to books might improve his stamina a bit.  It really surprised me when he began tripping over himself again and I found myself wondering if having troubles with more connected text might be more of a vision/ losing his place issue rather than a decoding/fluency issue.  

 

I don't have access to an OT right now to do testing on retained reflexes.  I have been wanting to slowly just do them and hope it helps.  We started trying to do the Starfish one. He found it pretty challenging.  My idea was after that got a little easier, then I would try another one and just keep adding on, but maybe I can throw more into the mix right away?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note:  I would add a signature line to my stuff, but I don't know how and when I tried to find a spot on the forums that showed/told you how, I came up empty. If anyone has a link or can direct me where to link, I can attach a proper signature to my posts.

[NorthernBeth]

 

For the OP, we found ourselves a behavioural optometrist (that's the Australian equivalent of COVD) because although DS has his decoding down and fluent, he was fatiguing very quickly when reading for more than a few minutes, sometimes less if the font was small and/or the line spacing was a bit dense. I started a thread about building reading stamina, and folks here suggested we have his vision checked. The OT made the same suggestion after requiring some writing tasks from him. He now reads with prescription lenses, which have really helped, and we'll revisit vision therapy once we've made some headway with the reflexes which have been holding up his visual development.

 

Interestingly, the chiropractor we're seeing now actually picked up saccadic intrusions which the optometrist missed, so do be aware that any assessment done in a few minutes is really only going to give you a snapshot of those few minutes. If you go ahead with a screening or evaluation and it misses something you're seeing at home with the kid you know better than anyone else on the planet, trust your intuition.

This.

 

If we read Chapter Books written for the early levels they have that BIG font and the wide spacing.  He is much less stressed out reading those.  The moment we switch to formatting for later Chapter Books-- regular size font, single line spacing, his frustration goes through the ROOF, even if the words are not harder.  ( They usually are, but I mean that even if the word is simple , he will make all sorts of mistakes on everything including basic words I know he can read,  with this style of formatting. He also will switch into that hyper/ speed read format, no matter how often I try to slow him down. )  He can maybe do a page or two in this format .   Then he will be crying and distressed.

 

( NOTE- I promise I am not doing this NOW,  right now I have dropped my outside reading requirements. )  

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank-you.  We did use the frame for the reading lists, although not for the phrases.  I didn't think of using it for the little books.  

 

It seemed like he HAD fluency, that's why it seemed okay to bring in the Bob readers-- like we are on vowel a, i, and o-- so I was only using the little Bob books that matched to those vowels.  But we can drill more on the specific Barton phrases if that is better.  

 

Obsessively thorough.  Check.  I will work on that. 

 

I think I am just finding the slow pace very tedious, and was hoping that moving up to books might improve his stamina a bit.  It really surprised me when he began tripping over himself again and I found myself wondering if having troubles with more connected text might be more of a vision/ losing his place issue rather than a decoding/fluency issue.  

 

I don't have access to an OT right now to do testing on retained reflexes.  I have been wanting to slowly just do them and hope it helps.  We started trying to do the Starfish one. He found it pretty challenging.  My idea was after that got a little easier, then I would try another one and just keep adding on, but maybe I can throw more into the mix right away?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note:  I would add a signature line to my stuff, but I don't know how and when I tried to find a spot on the forums that showed/told you how, I came up empty. If anyone has a link or can direct me where to link, I can attach a proper signature to my posts.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I know this seems exceedingly slow.  And tedious.  It is.  But the pace will pick up with time.  The learning becomes sort of exponential.  Each lesson, each level unlocks a greater number of skills, but this takes time and patience.  Right now you are laying a very needed basic foundation.  Rushing the foundation, adding in outside things before that foundation is laid, may weaken the foundation not strengthen it.  Don't have him reading any outside text, especially out loud, for the time being.  Use the fluency drills and extra practice pages available on line for tutors.  Sort out what the other issues may be as you have time/resources/money but in the meantime stick with just the Barton text/Barton readers for now.  If your child chooses to pick up a book and read it silently, let him, but don't insist he try reading anything else.  FWIW, by the time he gets through Level 3 you should be seeing HUGE improvement in decoding and fluency.

[PeterPan]

Pyramid of Potential has a list of the reflexes on their site, and I think they have a video for starfish. Yes, pick a few of the reflexes and work on them. You want to work on them every day, at least once a day, even 2-3 times if you can, very consistently for 30-45 days. The breakthrough when the reflex begins to integrate will be noticeable.

 

It definitely sounds like the size of the font is a problem. He might need glasses or have a convergence issue. It's ok to keep the size of the font large for now. If you find a developmental optometrist who also works on reflexes (some do, some don't) and can get coverage to make VT happen, you'd have a two-fer. If you can't make that happen right now, then proceed with your reflex work, saving your pennies to see what you can do about getting vision evals next. And maybe make a goal to work on 2-3 reflexes really diligently for the next 30-45 days. It's not going to change the vision issue. Has he ever had his eyes checked?

[NorthernBeth]

Pyramid of Potential has a list of the reflexes on their site, and I think they have a video for starfish. Yes, pick a few of the reflexes and work on them. You want to work on them every day, at least once a day, even 2-3 times if you can, very consistently for 30-45 days. The breakthrough when the reflex begins to integrate will be noticeable.

 

It definitely sounds like the size of the font is a problem. He might need glasses or have a convergence issue. It's ok to keep the size of the font large for now. If you find a developmental optometrist who also works on reflexes (some do, some don't) and can get coverage to make VT happen, you'd have a two-fer. If you can't make that happen right now, then proceed with your reflex work, saving your pennies to see what you can do about getting vision evals next. And maybe make a goal to work on 2-3 reflexes really diligently for the next 30-45 days. It's not going to change the vision issue. Has he ever had his eyes checked?

 

Yes, he has had regular vision checked.  The last visit- was in September and we ended up with glasses for distance vision.  I tried to talk to her about the tracking reading issue, but she seemed to dismiss the issue. It was kind of frustrating. However, she is not a developmental optometrist.   

 

I will check out that website-- thanks!

[Plink]

Tracking is a skill that requires practice, just like decoding.  Lots of kids with dyslexia try to read the entire text at one glance - this is why they seem to move at lightning speed, transfer letter sounds from one end of a word to the other, and change basic words like "in."  It is a guessing strategy that requires diligence to break.  

 

Vision therapy did nothing to help in our case.  That doesn't mean that it won't help your child, but personally, I wish I had fully committed that time and money to intensive tutoring rather than therapy.

 

In Barton 2, you don't have very many skills under your belt yet, so reading a book is like drinking from a fire hose.  Barton doesn't sell any stand-alone books until the end of level 3.  If you are really set on focusing on stories, make sure you know that the each word of the book is accessible, use the notch-card technique (an index card with a notch cut out of the upper left hand corner) and go slow.  Think of it as a chapter book - it is okay to take breaks.  

Edited December 4, 2017 by Plink

[PeterPan]

In VT we did tracking exercises where she would have to read aloud every letter in the word, mark each letter (1st letter underline, 3rd letter circle, etc.), and I agree there's not so so much difference between that and other methods of getting them to slow down and attend. VT's strongest use, the one with the most data behind it, is convergence. If your dc has convergence issues, it's demonstrable (google and see), and it will be showing up in other areas that don't involve decoding but do use vision. My dd, for instance, could not cross her eyes before VT and frequently saw double images that she was straining to resolve. It was one of those weird things we never thought to ask. She just thought it was normal to have to pick what you were focusing on, so she never said anything, kwim? 

 

If someone is giving you vague statements about VT curing dyslexia, blah blah, then yes it's pipe dreams. We're talking about physical, concrete, demonstrable vision problems, nothing vague. 

 

Think about what is also happening when you're doing a tracking exercise like the one I described above. They're holding a series of instructions in their head, using their vision, using their speech, using their motor planning! That's some really effective cognitive therapy, bringing together working memory, executive functions, motor planning. It's no wonder kids get functional bumps when they do VT and parents get excited! But once you realize what was causing the improvement, you can see other ways, free ways, to work on those areas. Any time you work on working memory, the ability to hold their thoughts and use their language and motor plan all at the same time, you're going to get functional bumps. 

 

I've shared my RAN/RAS dot pages. You can also make them with numbers. I might have even put one at the dropbox link. if you have the dc read those aloud, boom you're working on tracking. RAN/RAS work is evidenced-based, and strong RAN/RAS scores are highly correlated with strong readers. You can also change the font size of what they're working on, so do the exercises with larger and gradually decrease to smaller. With VT, they step that up a notch by having them use one eye, then the other eye, to make sure BOTH EYES can process the information. You can pick up a patch at the dollar tree and try it. We found with my dd her dominant eye was much much stronger than her weaker eye, and that difference meant her brain was working really hard! You can do the tracking work with colored dots, numbers, arrows, etc. You can add in distractions like a radio or vestibular (standing on something that wobbles, sitting on an exercise ball, while you push them occasionally while standing, etc.). The PT we worked with said they do this with athletes. Whatever he's got, you can take FARTHER to improve that visual processing. 

 

Work like that is fun and it's a good physical break. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

This.

 

If we read Chapter Books written for the early levels they have that BIG font and the wide spacing.  He is much less stressed out reading those.  The moment we switch to formatting for later Chapter Books-- regular size font, single line spacing, his frustration goes through the ROOF, even if the words are not harder.  ( They usually are, but I mean that even if the word is simple , he will make all sorts of mistakes on everything including basic words I know he can read,  with this style of formatting. He also will switch into that hyper/ speed read format, no matter how often I try to slow him down. )  He can maybe do a page or two in this format .   Then he will be crying and distressed.

 

( NOTE- I promise I am not doing this NOW,  right now I have dropped my outside reading requirements. )  

On a side note, he could have both developmental vision issues AND be dyslexic.  I'm not dyslexic but I have developmental vision issues.  Reading with a big font helps me decode much more easily.  Otherwise I do skip around.  However, I can still usually recognize that I mis-decoded or skipped something vital and can then go back and pick up what I missed.  If a child has both issues they frequently cannot decode with fluency, keep track of where they are in the text, AND stay on top of the actual meaning behind that text all at the same time.  The whole thing becomes a jumbled mess and causes brain and eye strain.  Getting it all running smoothly takes training and time working on all three pieces.  Usually broken down into separate targeted training.

 

If you can get an evaluation for developmental vision issues, that may unlock more answers but it won't fix dyslexia issues.  And some DVI are correctable with VT and some aren't.  At least the Barton material is pretty big print.

 

That isn't for just a vision thing, by the way.  Dyslexics have a hard time focusing on the pieces and bringing them together into a cohesive whole in a smooth way.  With a bigger font there are fewer words on a line at once.  Using the word viewer also prevents the dyslexic reader from seeing all those other words.  They can focus on just that one word and then the next, working on decoding and fluency of that one word then the next.  You want your child to get that skill ingrained until it is fluid but that can take a LOT of time.  That's o.k.  Once they have that skill mostly under their belt then reading will improve quite a bit in general.  He won't always have this problem, even if he has developmental issues.

 

I know with DD, long before we knew she had developmental vision issues, one of the things that really helped her with decoding and fluency was using only the Barton materials and insisting she use the viewer (which she did not like).  Once she only had one word at a time she could really see, then she HAD to focus on just that word to decode.  Since each lesson was helping her with breaking down and reassembling the words in the reading passages, by the time she got to the reading passage decoding was not so hard and fluency came pretty quickly with practice.  By the time she got to Level 5 she no longer needed the viewer at all (and probably could have ditched it in Level 4 but Level 4 was rather challenging for her so I insisted she keep using it most of the time).  Even though she still has developmental vision issues, her decoding and fluency are 10 fold improved from where we were when we started Barton, even when reading materials from other sources.  She just needed time to build that skill to automaticity.  

 

FWIW, all through Level 1 and Level 2 I kept thinking we needed to move faster, that the program wasn't enough.  I felt a lot of time pressure.  My daughter was in 6th grade and could not really read.  It was awful.  I did try adding in other things.  It was a mistake. 

 

The skills are being built up with every lesson.  It just takes a bit to get enough skills in place to notice a difference.  Think of it like trying to ride a bicycle up a steep hill.  Those first few pushes of the peddle are going to be slow and painful and take tremendous effort.  As the momentum builds it will still be hard but the pace with quicken and the effort will net more.  Right now your child is at the bottom of that hill.  He needs to keep his focus on peddling to build up some momentum. 

 

Sending you hugs and best wishes.  

Edited December 4, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[NorthernBeth]

On a side note, he could have both developmental vision issues AND be dyslexic.  I'm not dyslexic but I have developmental vision issues.  Reading with a big font helps me decode much more easily.  Otherwise I do skip around.  However, I can still usually recognize that I mis-decoded or skipped something vital and can then go back and pick up what I missed.  If a child has both issues they frequently cannot decode with fluency, keep track of where they are in the text, AND stay on top of the actual meaning behind that text all at the same time.  The whole thing becomes a jumbled mess and causes brain and eye strain.  Getting it all running smoothly takes training and time working on all three pieces.  Usually broken down into separate targeted training.

 

If you can get an evaluation for developmental vision issues, that may unlock more answers but it won't fix dyslexia issues.  And some DVI are correctable with VT and some aren't.  At least the Barton material is pretty big print.

 

That isn't for just a vision thing, by the way.  Dyslexics have a hard time focusing on the pieces and bringing them together into a cohesive whole in a smooth way.  With a bigger font there are fewer words on a line at once.  Using the word viewer also prevents the dyslexic reader from seeing all those other words.  They can focus on just that one word and then the next, working on decoding and fluency of that one word then the next.  You want your child to get that skill ingrained until it is fluid but that can take a LOT of time.  That's o.k.  Once they have that skill mostly under their belt then reading will improve quite a bit in general.  He won't always have this problem, even if he has developmental issues.

 

I know with DD, long before we knew she had developmental vision issues, one of the things that really helped her with decoding and fluency was using only the Barton materials and insisting she use the viewer (which she did not like).  Once she only had one word at a time she could really see, then she HAD to focus on just that word to decode.  Since each lesson was helping her with breaking down and reassembling the words in the reading passages, by the time she got to the reading passage decoding was not so hard and fluency came pretty quickly with practice.  By the time she got to Level 5 she no longer needed the viewer at all (and probably could have ditched it in Level 4 but Level 4 was rather challenging for her so I insisted she keep using it most of the time).  Even though she still has developmental vision issues, her decoding and fluency are 10 fold improved from where we were when we started Barton, even when reading materials from other sources.  She just needed time to build that skill to automaticity.  

 

FWIW, all through Level 1 and Level 2 I kept thinking we needed to move faster, that the program wasn't enough.  I felt a lot of time pressure.  My daughter was in 6th grade and could not really read.  It was awful.  I did try adding in other things.  It was a mistake. 

 

The skills are being built up with every lesson.  It just takes a bit to get enough skills in place to notice a difference.  Think of it like trying to ride a bicycle up a steep hill.  Those first few pushes of the peddle are going to be slow and painful and take tremendous effort.  As the momentum builds it will still be hard but the pace with quicken and the effort will net more.  Right now your child is at the bottom of that hill.  He needs to keep his focus on peddling to build up some momentum. 

 

Sending you hugs and best wishes.  

Thank-you so much for this.  He is in grade 6 as well and I keep freaking out worrying about high school coming up.  We were flying through level 2 and suddenly noticed some issues and we had to slow back down again and review and I was feeling a bit panicky.  I like the image of the mountain.    

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank-you so much for this.  He is in grade 6 as well and I keep freaking out worrying about high school coming up.  We were flying through level 2 and suddenly noticed some issues and we had to slow back down again and review and I was feeling a bit panicky.  I like the image of the mountain.    

I absolutely 100% understand.  That was a scary, stressful time for me.  I had never homeschooled and had just pulled DD out of brick and mortar because after all those years in school she still couldn't read and was falling further and further behind.  I did not really "get" homeschooling or dyslexia and developmental vision issues weren't even on our radar at that point.  And my son also was pulled out of school for similar reasons.  Two kids with learning challenges, I did not consider myself a teacher, and I had no clue what I was doing.  And DD was not terribly far off from High School.  I was terrified and felt we had to catch up right now, KWIM?  And DD was really resistant to any reading remediation.  Secretly she felt that it was hard for her because she was stupid.  Her self-esteem had tanked.  It took time for us both to see that improvement had to come with time and patience and building a solid foundation for her brain to work from.  Same with DS.

 

Fast forward to now, DD just turned 17, is a Junior in High School, reads at or above grade level, is a hard working student and deeply appreciates what Barton did for her.  DS is also reading at or above grade level.

[PeterPan]

Wow OneStep, have we really known you that long? I remember when you came and were going through all the how do I help my kids, how do I make all these evals and interventions happen... That's AMAZING PROGRESS!!

 

:party:  :party:

 

So what is your dd looking to do after high school? I'm just curious. :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Wow OneStep, have we really known you that long? I remember when you came and were going through all the how do I help my kids, how do I make all these evals and interventions happen... That's AMAZING PROGRESS!!

 

:party:  :party:

 

So what is your dd looking to do after high school? I'm just curious. :)

Local CC then possibly transferring to another school about 40 minutes away.  She is interested in graphic design and architecture but admits she has other areas of interest, too.  Math is going to slow her down a bit since that is still not at grade level but she has made a LOT of progress.  We both recognize that this is a very slow slog.  Reading remediation with a dyslexic was a cake walk compared to math with a profound dyscalculic.  She may take a gap year first, get a job and try for an unpaid internship (or paid if she can) just to get a better feel for where she wants to go in life before committing a lot of funds to a higher education.  She is adamant, though, that she wants to stay in the area.  She likes it here in our little corner of the woods. LOL

Edited December 4, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[PeterPan]

The CC should have career testing that they will do on her for FREE if she is enrolled as a DE student. Might be worth it to find a summer class in photography or just something, anything, so she could get access to that. Totally changed the course of what my dd pursued in college. We knew she was really gifted or good with some things, but we knew she had some other abilities as well. The career testing was able to quantify that. She's now a business major working in the costume department, which fits her really well and recognizes ALL her strengths. She turned out to have significant strengths with people, human resources, etc., which is why she ended up going that direction. And it's one of the few majors she was interested in that didn't require a foreign language. I pretty much told her I wouldn't pay for any major requiring a foreign language, end of discussion. LOL

[OneStepAtATime]

The CC should have career testing that they will do on her for FREE if she is enrolled as a DE student. Might be worth it to find a summer class in photography or just something, anything, so she could get access to that. Totally changed the course of what my dd pursued in college. We knew she was really gifted or good with some things, but we knew she had some other abilities as well. The career testing was able to quantify that. She's now a business major working in the costume department, which fits her really well and recognizes ALL her strengths. She turned out to have significant strengths with people, human resources, etc., which is why she ended up going that direction. And it's one of the few majors she was interested in that didn't require a foreign language. I pretty much told her I wouldn't pay for any major requiring a foreign language, end of discussion. LOL

Good point!  Thanks for the feedback.

 

(On a side note, I guess I missed when you switched to the new name, but I noticed the new name a bit back and was pretty sure it was you.  Despite the change, your "voice" still comes through OhE.  You were one of the very first to reach out to me and I will always be grateful for your counsel...you, Heathermomster, Lecka, others that were kind enough to keep me going during some really confusing and stressful times.)

[NorthernBeth]

I absolutely 100% understand.  That was a scary, stressful time for me.  I had never homeschooled and had just pulled DD out of brick and mortar because after all those years in school she still couldn't read and was falling further and further behind.  I did not really "get" homeschooling or dyslexia and developmental vision issues weren't even on our radar at that point.  And my son also was pulled out of school for similar reasons.  Two kids with learning challenges, I did not consider myself a teacher, and I had no clue what I was doing.  And DD was not terribly far off from High School.  I was terrified and felt we had to catch up right now, KWIM?  And DD was really resistant to any reading remediation.  Secretly she felt that it was hard for her because she was stupid.  Her self-esteem had tanked.  It took time for us both to see that improvement had to come with time and patience and building a solid foundation for her brain to work from.  Same with DS.

 

Fast forward to now, DD just turned 17, is a Junior in High School, reads at or above grade level, is a hard working student and deeply appreciates what Barton did for her.  DS is also reading at or above grade level.

Thank-you.  This is really encouraging.  I see so much potential for him.  He is just so curious about so many things. I so desperately don't want to fail him, and I feel like the school system kind of just gave up.  His confidence is pretty low, and I hear, "I am so dumb"   a lot!  ( part of the reason we started homeschooling was when he began to confess that one of the reasons he was giving us so much trouble about going to school was that he just felt so "stupid".)  Meanwhile the school kept telling me he was doing fine while complaining that he wasn't getting any work done!!  Uhm-- because he can't do it.  

 

 I just keep wanting to speed up the process so that he sees it as well and has more hope for himself.  This reading/ spelling thing just becomes this kind of horrible bottleneck that slows everything down in terms of learning/ demonstrating learning especially in a more formal environment.  And he has hit the point where he is very aware that things he finds horribly hard, other people find super easy.  When we first started hs, we were using AAS and he just kept freaking out because he couldn't get it. Anyways, thank-you.  Obviously I need to work on my patience more.   

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank-you.  This is really encouraging.  I see so much potential for him.  He is just so curious about so many things. I so desperately don't want to fail him, and I feel like the school system kind of just gave up.  His confidence is pretty low, and I hear, "I am so dumb"   a lot!  ( part of the reason we started homeschooling was when he began to confess that one of the reasons he was giving us so much trouble about going to school was that he just felt so "stupid".)  Meanwhile the school kept telling me he was doing fine while complaining that he wasn't getting any work done!!  Uhm-- because he can't do it.  

 

 I just keep wanting to speed up the process so that he sees it as well and has more hope for himself.  This reading/ spelling thing just becomes this kind of horrible bottleneck that slows everything down in terms of learning/ demonstrating learning especially in a more formal environment.  And he has hit the point where he is very aware that things he finds horribly hard, other people find super easy.  When we first started hs, we were using AAS and he just kept freaking out because he couldn't get it. Anyways, thank-you.  Obviously I need to work on my patience more.   

Do everything you can to scaffold him while his reading/writing/spelling skills improve.  Scribe for him.  Let him listen to audio books.  Watch documentaries.  Do science/history collaboratively and make it interest led for now.  There are MANY ways to learn.  It doesn't have to be tied to reading and writing.  Truly.  There will be time for that later.

 

And learning can happen in all kinds of weird ways.  For instance, DS watched some episodes of Hogan's Heroes when we first started homeschooling before he could read much at all and before he could write well (anyone here old enough to know that show?).  The show is supposed to take place during WWII.  Even though the show itself is a sitcom and campy, they actually had quite a few accurate references to people and events from WWII.  DS was fascinated.  He started having me look up names and events for him which led to further interest and it launched a multi-year long passion for studying WWI and WWII from a global perspective.  He has watched tons of documentaries, watched many youtube videos, listened to audio books, etc.  He knows a TON about WWI and WWII, but he didn't have to READ or WRITE to learn.  Now he can and does but when we started he couldn't and didn't.  He still learned a tremendous amount.

[NorthernBeth]

Do everything you can to scaffold him while his reading/writing/spelling skills improve.  Scribe for him.  Let him listen to audio books.  Watch documentaries.  Do science/history collaboratively and make it interest led for now.  There are MANY ways to learn.  It doesn't have to be tied to reading and writing.  Truly.  There will be time for that later.

 

And learning can happen in all kinds of weird ways.  For instance, DS watched some episodes of Hogan's Heroes when we first started homeschooling before he could read much at all and before he could write well (anyone here old enough to know that show?).  The show is supposed to take place during WWII.  Even though the show itself is a sitcom and campy, they actually had quite a few accurate references to people and events from WWII.  DS was fascinated.  He started having me look up names and events for him which led to further interest and it launched a multi-year long passion for studying WWI and WWII from a global perspective.  He has watched tons of documentaries, watched many youtube videos, listened to audio books, etc.  He knows a TON about WWI and WWII, but he didn't have to READ or WRITE to learn.  Now he can and does but when we started he couldn't and didn't.  He still learned a tremendous amount.

Yeah, I pretty much read everything to him these days, which he loves. We do a lot of oral response, oral narration, or timelines, and mapping and lots of hands on science. We watch Liberty's Kids on more challenging days ( as we are covering Early Canadian/ American history).  We do science documentaries, and read a lot of highly visual science materials like Usbourne Science ( on various topics-- covering Human Body right now)  I do a lot of scribing.  We are also trying to get a little more comfortable using Google Docs speech to text technology as that is what the local schools use, so if he ends up back in, he is at least familiar with their technology.  I was hoping to teach him typing skills this year, but he found it way too frustrating.  We can tackle that again later.  

 

He did well giving me oral responses on a test I wrote on the history we had covered this quarter.  He did a science poster to show his overall learning in that area. That required a fair bit of handholding, but I thought it was good practice for him.  So he is definitely learning. 

 

He can tell his dad about the plot lines of the books we are reading. ( although he struggles to remember character names). We are currently reading The Sign of the Beaver, which he absolutely LOVES and is literally begging me to read just one more chapter. We got the Sonlight Core D this year and although we are not moving as quite as quick a pace as they suggest, the books have been a HUGE hit here and been the source of some good discussions regarding race relations, and cultural differences. I just would still like for him to have the more traditional reading/writing skills and the improved self-esteem that would come from that as well, kwim? But  I am realizing that patience and problem-solving are just my "themes" this year.