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#51 Crimson Wife

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:16 PM

for listening therapy there are a lot of options there. We religiously did integrated listening systems  (ILS) with the exercises and bone conduction headphones. But it was expensive. Even used the equipment was 1000. I just recently found out about "The listening program" I called them because I saw that they have a monthly online subscription for far less but it had to be supervised by an SLP and our SLP for listening therapy moved.  the nice thing about the ILS is that once you own it you can use it for all your kids any way you want. don't tell ILS I said that but I now use it with my preteen for anxiety. I can't say how effective it is by itself as we were doing vision therapy and another therapy this past year.

 

The audiologist who is considered the local Central Auditory Processing Disorder guru recommended the EASe at-home program. She said that there is no way to tease apart the impact of a physical hearing loss from CAPD so ethically she couldn't treat my daughter. But she said the EASe is similar to the program she uses with her patients. She said to get CD's 1 & 2 and not to bother with the others. I haven't used them yet because my DD has so many challenges I have to triage the therapies for the sake of our budget & time.
 


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#52 exercise_guru

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:16 PM

So sorry to highjack this thread. 

 

Yes sometimes experts who have seen this before can be immeasurable in helping. Nothing is a quick and easy fix that is for sure but having true information is essential if you want to be climbing the right tree. Both of my kids benefited from a neuropsychologist. With my son she is the one that found the CAPD that was being misdiagnosed. I am grateful everyday that my son went to her. When he started to get the auditory help he needed over time he made huge improvements. She also tested and had my daughter go for some problem solving therapy. It was so helpful and helped my daughter more than anything else we pursued. I mean all of this is just a set of symptoms they give a label to. Some kids are textbook this or that but some kiddos are not. With both my younger kids she got us on the correct path and with the correct treatment and problem solving strategies. It turns out my son isn't lazy( see I got that too from the school) he just couldn't "Hear" & process what his teacher was saying. We moved him to the front row and had her start writing things down and boom it was a whole different child. I changed schools to one that is focused on good solid teaching  small with visual input and feedback. An FM system was lifechanging to because he wasn't spelling the word he "heard"

I teach him with a lot of visuals at home and support with listening therapy. Hopefully I can get back to homeschooling but our financials are such that deeply need to work so I support before and after school.  


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#53 OrganicJen

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:18 PM

I've told this story before, but my youngest had FOUR autism evaluations within a 3 month period (private developmental pediatrician, school district IEP team, Regional Center psychologist, and private pediatric neurologist) and it literally took until all 4 evaluations concurring on HFA for me to accept it. I was SO SURE that she couldn't have ASD because she is friendly and affectionate. The opposite of the stereotypical loner who can't stand to be touched. I'd known she struggled with social interactions but had chalked it all up to the speech & language delay. I didn't realize how HFA can present in bright girls.

What took several years and whole exome sequencing to discover is that her autism is actually part of a rare neurological syndrome. She still meets all the criteria for ASD under both the previous DSM-IV and the current DSM-V so her doctors have not undiagnosed the HFA. It's now considered part of this Bainbridge-Roper Syndrome the way autism is considered part of Fragile X Syndrome or Rett Syndrome.


We had a similar experience in that our son with ASD is very extroverted and friendly and always chatting with people etc., so we had a hard time getting others like his teachers when he used to be in public school to accept that he had ASD. Most people just don't understand it very well even though it's not all that rare. That's why a good neuropsychologist who can really explain each behavior and what it's stemming from can be so helpful.
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#54 OrganicJen

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:25 PM

So sorry to highjack this thread.

Yes sometimes experts who have seen this before can be immeasurable in helping. Nothing is a quick and easy fix that is for sure but having true information is essential if you want to be climbing the right tree. Both of my kids benefited from a neuropsychologist. With my son she is the one that found the CAPD that was being misdiagnosed. I am grateful everyday that my son went to her. When he started to get the auditory help he needed over time he made huge improvements. She also tested and had my daughter go for some problem solving therapy. It was so helpful and helped my daughter more than anything else we pursued. I mean all of this is just a set of symptoms they give a label to. Some kids are textbook this or that but some kiddos are not. With both my younger kids she got us on the correct path and with the correct treatment and problem solving strategies. It turns out my son isn't lazy( see I got that too from the school) he just couldn't "Hear" & process what his teacher was saying. We moved him to the front row and had her start writing things down and boom it was a whole different child. I changed schools to one that is focused on good solid teaching small with visual input and feedback. An FM system was lifechanging to because he wasn't spelling the word he "heard"
I teach him with a lot of visuals at home and support with listening therapy. Hopefully I can get back to homeschooling but our financials are such that deeply need to work so I support before and after school.



We feel grateful for our neuropsychologist as well. We were able to learn through her that his attention issues were due to his perseverative thoughts from ASD, his anxiety disorder, and his tics from tourettes. I mean who could focus with all that going on in their mind? So instead of focusing on strategies people use for typical adhd, we learned exactly what we needed to focus on to help him best.
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#55 exercise_guru

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:30 PM

I could pm you about that but yes I mean how many darts do we throw and at what? There are a lot of therapies and some work some don't . I have heard of the Ease. They are all filtered music  many have a "gating effect" that is supposed to address the sensory stuff. My son had sensory stuff about loud noises etc, crowds, he thought people were yelling at him when they were using what he now calls "the teacher voice" If you have an ipad or apple product you could look up an app  called IEAR the company makes a professional app and a regular one called LIT.  I might try it because it works very similar to forbrain and their headphones are flimsy my son would destroy them and the money would be wasted. With ILS I really think it was the bone conduction and the exercises while listening that helped with the sensory and focus. my son wore the headphones on the swing and the balance board and playing basketball etc. I took that therapy(ILS) on faith because I do think listening therapy is in the questionable realm. I also think that about vision therapy ( but still did it because my insurance covered it) I feel the same way about interactive metronome but my insurance wouldn't cover it. We do percussion lessons instead. If I had done one therapy and spent my money one place it would have been with "FastForword" It would have helped with the auditory and reading and laid out a good foundation for everything else. We are doing that through a home therapist now which is far cheaper. I should have started there but I didn't know what I was dealing with for some time.

 

Anyone who is dealing with ASD. I appreciate the posts . I am just learning about with my daughter. To further derail the thread she is bright in everything and I mean everything but she will not learn a single thing from me. If you are willing to pm back and forth with me I want to better understand that testing process and what treatment actually can help. She doesn't need accommodation with academics She has that in spades. There is not a single thing she is bad at with music,language, mathematics you name it but holy hannah give me strength she has the worst social competency you can imagine you don't see it until you deal with it at home and in conversations but its there.  I am just now learning about Zones of regulation and Social Thinking and I am going to a different neuropsychologist who specializes in ASD to get my questions answered. I am less concerned with a true diagnosis( my insurance is crappy)  as I am concerned with getting her some help. 

 

BTW neither of my kids had obvious challenges or big red flags at school.  It was just mothers intuition and experience from homeschooling my older kiddos. Not every child has something obvious but that doesn't mean that helping them with their glitch isn't a good thing. as a mom I wasn't going to give up on  either of my kids and just let the school think that they were lazy. ( the thing that got my goat at the beginning of this thread and led to my 10 posts) I live in an area with limited resources and I have limited resources to pay for them but as a mom I am just to stubborn to not want to help my child. I have a strong background in neurophysiology so I am more intense as a scientist and a mom. I tend to want to fix things. Sometimes I can sometimes I can't . Its probably my biggest strength that I am solution driven but it also can be a downfall. I am sure any parent who has a child with a diagnostis will know why this is not always possible and other paths have to be followed as well. In our case my sons situation is manageable. He is getting good grades at school and while he is tired at the end of the day he feels good about school and can do well with minimal accommodations. I know that is not the case for every parent. My husband calls both kids " not enough to diagnose but bad enough it can mess with their daily life if we don't intervene" That could probably be the bumper sticker at our house


Edited by exercise_guru, 05 December 2017 - 02:10 PM.

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#56 Crimson Wife

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:12 PM

One big thing that may help if your child does wind up getting an ASD diagnosis is that with that diagnosis, she may qualify for the Medicaid waiver. That would "wrap around" the primary insurance and pick up the deductible & co-pays for any providers who accept Medicaid and any medication on the formulary (which is unfortunately limited and trying to get a waiver for a non-formulary medicine just winds up disappearing into a black hole at the state).


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#57 Lauraruth

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:14 PM

When you answer about individual components, it ends up sounding like most are working well for the most part.

But your first post said that one or the other of you ends up in tears most days.









There seems to be a disconnect.

Can you evaluate what happens for each of you to result in ending up in tears?

Maybe her tears are less clear to you, but, as a start, if you are ending up in tears yourself, what is going on with you when that happens?

What sort of tears are these? Sadness? Frustration? Something else?


And could your frustrations or sadness be leading to her own frustrations or sadness?


Could you perhaps ask her what she thinks is wrong and how she herself thinks it might be better?



Also, what is happening different on those rarer days where neither of you end up in tears?



Here are a few examples:

Yesterday we were reviewing some Bible memory work. She typically does well with memory work. We came to a verse we hadn't reviewed in a a while, and she was having trouble remembering it. I was prompting her through the verse, but after a couple mistakes, she just shut down. She was in tears because she couldn't remember it. I explained that it had a been a while since we did it, and I didn't expect it to be perfect. Other times I will give her the beginning of a verse, and she will tell me she doesn't remember it, even though it is one she has practiced and recited often. As soon as she thinks she can't do it, she will not try. If I try to help, she cries.

In science, we will do a short experiment and then read through the lesson (the two older girls and me). There are questions at the end of the lesson to review. We go through the questions all together. There is also a notebook section for them to do. I try to keep the notebook simple because of the writing issues. Typically they draw an illustration of the experiment or something we talked about in the lesson. Then there are one or two questions to go along with it. We go through the questions together, and discuss the answers. I try to modify the questions if they are too much. I explain what I need her to do and ask if she understands what we talked about. She will draw the picture, but getting her to write anything at all is a chore. She immediately goes to "I don't remember," or "I don't know." When I try to walk through it with her verbally, I will get no where. I will ask her about the experiment. She will tell me what we did, but have no idea what it showed. I'll point out the area in the book, and ask her simple questions to at least get the answer verbally from her. She says she doesn't know and melts down.

I am working with her on her writing assignments. She does the keyword outline, and then we discuss it. Yesterday, was asking about one of the words she chose, and if she thought another word might have been more helpful. She started crying saying she was not good at it. At little later after getting settled down, we were putting the paragraph together from the outline. I was asking her questions about the paragraph to prompt her as she was putting words together for a sentence. We had tears again.

Math is a constant battle. I have cut her lessons in half to help her get through them. There were days she would take two hours to do her math. I tired working for ten minutes, taking a break, work some more. I tried do three problems and get up and do ten jumping jacks (or run around the house). I tried doing a portion and then do another subject and then come back to it. I also tried having her work the problems out loud. Cutting the lessons in half has definitely helped. She seems to be able to get through it without as many battles.

She hates any type of correction. She immediately goes to "I'm no good at this," and shuts down. Once she has shut down, she will either not do anything or she will act like she knows absolutely nothing. I can ask her what two plus two is, and she will tell me she doesn't know.

We also have battles when she doesn't want to do something. There have been times she has told me she won't do something I ask her to do. She tells me no (with a foot stomp and all). She will scream at me, I will ask her to go to her room to settle down a little, she still stomp off screaming at me.

We belong to a homeschool co-op, and the kids do short presentations each week. The mom who leads the presentations will choose the order the kids will go in. She likes to go last. We have had weeks were she is not able to go last. She has refused to do her presentation and will sit and cry because she did not get her way.

I had been checking her work with every subject and checking off when it was done. We had a week last year where we found out she was lying to me about getting her work done, so before she could be done with the subject I checked it. I had a day last week, where I got behind checking work. I had sick twins and I was sick. She was telling me work was finished when it wasn't, so I told her I needed to check everything again before she could move on. She lost it. I asked her for her assignment sheet, and she wouldn't give it to me. I honestly don't remember how that one resolved, I did her her assignment sheet, and she has been bringing it to me again.

She is a perfectionist, just like me, so I get it. (I ended up in out patient treatment for an eating disorder about 15 years ago. I know what it is like to be hard on yourself.). Her emotions are all over the place. There is really no middle ground. If she's happy, she's over the top happy. When she's mad or upset, everyone needs to stay out of her way.

Life outside of schoolwork is pretty similar. She melts down when she thinks she can't do something, or something doesn't go her way. She screams or has temper tantrums if she doesn't want to do something. She will joke around with her siblings and say silly things to them, but if they say the same thing to her, she gets upset. The two older girls were sitting in the couch watching a video for history. Their brother sat next to them watching. He was actually sitting still not bothering anyone. (I was a bit amazed as I watched him.). DD for some reason had slid over in the couch unintentionally, but was now touching her brother. She got upset because he was bothering her. I asked her to move over back to where she was. She insisted she had not moved and he was the one who had moved because he wanted to bother her. I tried to explain that even though she didn't think she had moved and had not purposely moved, I needed her to slide over a little to make room for her brother. She refused to move. I gave her the option of moving over, or leaving the couch and finishing the video later on her own. She then moved over about an inch. I asked her to move again and told her this was the final chance. She did finally move, but with a big jump up and over and a loud "fine."

I coach my oldest daughters basketball team. The other three kids come to practice. They bring school work, toys, coloring books etc. The other day she came running on the court during practice screaming because her bother had hit her. She was mad and in tears. She and her brother have similar personalities, so the butt heads a lot. She will completely loose it if her brother does something to upset her, whether it was intentional, accidental, or she just perceives it.

I hope that all makes sense. I know I have made mistakes and have not been patient with her when I should have been. I have not handled situations right because I have been frustrated both with her and with myself for not knowing how to help. I'm sure there are times she has sensed that. I really feel clueless a lot, and am not sure what to do.

You probably were not looking for a huge reply like that. I do appreciate all of the suggestions and support.
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#58 Pen

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:35 PM

Reading the above makes me also wonder about possible autism spectrum.

 

ADHD can be irritable and emotional as can SPD--but the above sounds like more than that.


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#59 Pen

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:52 PM

I think in your situation I'd go for a more detailed evaluation--including to see if autism might be an aspect.  Confirmation of ADHD and if confirmed getting her on treatment for that. And perhaps accepting services from your local school if they can offer any help.

 

Possibly the Ross Greene book The Explosive Child would help a little.

 

If touching on couch is often a problem, perhaps having her sit separately in a chair would be better.

 

I googled ADHD and Niacin (a couple links below). Personally, I'd try vitamins before trying pharmaceuticals, but there is also a long history of use of pharmaceuticals to deal with ADHD and if your dd has that, whatever is going on sounds severe enough that it needs some treatment.

 

 I first ran into the use of B vitamins for emotional health when my ds was at a school where moms were sitting around chatting, and it came up that when faced with behavior like what you describe, the first thing a couple of the moms did was give their dc food and vitamins, and themselves food and vitamins too!  A couple of the moms had kids who had been diagnosed with autism, that had been resolved nutritionally.  Some people would say that if it could resolve nutritionally then it was not true autism in first place, which may be so, but at least for those two families it was very positive.

  ODD, ADHD, Bipolar and Real Hope Thanks to Niacin! | WeHaveKids
https://wehavekids.com/misc/ODD-ADHD-Bipolar-and-real-hope
 
Jun 26, 2011 ... I have stopped all symptoms of ODD, and Bipolar, in my 7 yr. old son using non- flushing Niacin (Vitamin B3). He weighs 50lbs and takes 2500mg daily of Niacin,2000mg of Vitamin C and 2100mg of Omega 3 a day. I now have a loving, bright eyed little boy, who didn't exist before this regimen. He has been ...
Treating ADHD with Vitamin B-3 (Niacinamide) - Orthomolecular.org
orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v09n23.shtml
 
Oct 30, 2013 ... Although all nutrients are important, the one that an ADHD child is most likely in greatest need of is vitamin B-3, niacinamide. ... thought in the past was a super- abundance of energy and vitality was in reality an abnormal 'wound-up' feeling, which was an expression of aniacinamidosis (niacin deficiency).
 


#60 kbutton

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:21 PM

OP, if you go for additional testing, I strongly encourage you to have language testing--for sure the TOPS testing, and maybe some other stuff like the CASL. The TOPS testing is very revealing for ASD in smart kids. Some neuro or educational psychs will run these tests, but other times, you have to see an SLP for the testing. Oh, and be sure to get some kind of test of narrative language. I strongly encourage that. There are some informal ones, but one that would be part of psych or SLP testing is the TONL. 

 

If you search the acronyms and the word test or speech test, you will be able to find test descriptions. 

 

Your descriptions make me think that she can't easily problem-solve on an interpersonal level (and maybe not for tasks) and has trouble with things that are open-ended. I think she also has some rigid ideas of what she should be able to do. 

 

Those can be broad language issues or language issues related to ASD. Hang in there!


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#61 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:49 PM

I'll be more polite.

 

You can't dose niacin as a blanket statement, because it really depends on the methylation status of the person. Also, if you don't notice that the dose used by that person was NO-FLUSH, which is dramatically less effective than regular niacin, you could inadvertently make your dc astonishingly sick.

 

Run genetic testing, know what you're doing. 


Edited by PeterPan, 05 December 2017 - 06:54 PM.


#62 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:51 PM

I use with my ds a very low dose of niacin delivered with gummies in a dose that seems to give modest improvement (more than the same brand of inulin gummies in isolation, meaning it's not due to the inulin) and not enough to cause a flush or be uncomfortable. If your person with ADHD is an under-methylator, you would need to do the opposite, providing methyl sources to perk them up. 

 

 


Edited by PeterPan, 05 December 2017 - 06:54 PM.


#63 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:58 PM

On the memory work, it may be she needs more variety for the inputs (visual, kinesthetic, auditory). With my ds, I use the words written onto strips that he can put in order. You should promote pleasant review, as joy aids learning, and eliminate all performance anxiety. It sounds like she's having a significant amount of anxiety, so you want to eliminate the causes of anxiety, increase supports, redefine the task.

 

Also, without language testing you don't know if she's actually comprehending what you're asking her to memorize. My ds has a 99th percentile vocabulary, so few expect him to have the language delays and comprehension issues that he does. What version are you trying to have her memorize? I read aloud to my ds from the NIrV, which is the NIV reduced to a 2nd-3rd gr reading level, and I'm trying to have him memorize from a modern version (HCSB). Even that has some winding and inefficiency in the translations. If the reading level is too high, drop it. If the program is Awana, you can go to their site and download the adapted verses that are given as a printable stickers file. You literally just place the stickers in the book, boom, done. Then the leaders know those are what she learns.


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#64 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:10 PM

The science you're doing sounds too hard for her. You might get her a simpler book on the topic that you can read together ahead of time to familiarize her with the topic. As you say, there's this idea of gestalt, getting the big picture. She's getting lots of details but they never form the POINT. She might do better with video lessons that provide significant repetition of language, visual supports like graphic organizers, and visual paired with the language. Drop the materials back a couple grade levels and see if there's more click.

 

Much of the homeschool-generated material (Apologia Elementary, for instance) is WAY too wordy. She might do better with a grade leveled BJU science on video, which you can get for $99 right now. I'm not saying it's the only way, but it would be *a* way. One reason I like it with my ds (I'm not saying love but at least like) is that they have that repetition of language, clear points, visual supports, etc. For him it's good stuff and supports learning.

 

There's this tendency in homeschooling not to like anything schooly. Well when schooly means dropping the level, bringing in needed repetition, using multiple modalities, using graphic organizers and worksheets (bad, bad busywork!!) it can be really good! How old is she? Nancy Larson has a really good science that has a lot of structure. 

 

Another direction would be something like the TOPS science kits. My ds has done some with the Lentil Science. It has clear structure, steps, a blending of visual and hands-on, and doesn't ask for a lot of written output.

 

Btw, for the BJU, I scribe. You're scribing, right? There's no reason not to be scribing at this point. You've got so much resistance and aren't gaining anything by making that a mountain to climb. Scribe and move on. Get her something that is really on her level, something she can be really comfortable with. She's special. Let her be special, kwim? My ds does really well with WORKSHEETS. I know people are like oh worksheets are BAD! Well keep saying that, but I'm telling you my ds is really good with them. They're structured, consistent, predictable. They reduce anxiety because they're the same format every time. They know how much is coming, like we're going to read a picture book together then do one worksheet and you're DONE. And they're a very gradual progression that allows the student to improve without ever feeling like the material was TOO HARD. That's what you want to eliminate, the TOO HARD reaction. And if it means a 9 yo is doing a 1st grade worksheet, that's FINE. You don't stay there. It's a way to get some positive momentum that lets you start going FORWARD. Look for stuff that would give you positive momentum and a consistent, predictable, gradual structure. It will reduce anxiety and make it easier to enforce compliance. It will make it easier for her to comply.

 

I've forgotten how old she is. Here's an example of what I'm talking about with worksheets. There are lots of books and publishers and options. These are things marked for grade level, things that increase in difficulty gradually. Think about pairing them with a picture book read aloud that is really on her level or a video or a craft or art project on the topic or a nature walk. Oh my, nature walks and collections are the BEST THING! There's a through the year nature walk curriculum. Maybe I'll remember the name. SO happy, so gentle, so appropriate.

Science « Books | Teacher Created Resources

 


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#65 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:19 PM

Cut and Paste: Science - TCR3706 | Teacher Created Resources

 

https://cdn.teacherc...mples/8771s.pdf

 

Picture-Perfect STEM Lessons, K 2: Using Children s Books to Inspire STEM Learning - PB422X1  Our local teacher's college has this series and so does our library. I didn't really have the guts to get it to fly, but still it might inspire you.

 

Next Time You See the Moon Next Time You See  This is from a series, and the books are LOVELY. They're sort of simple but profound at the same time. We had done the pillbug book and I think one other, and I just got this one to read with him. Think about the pleasantness of a simple thing. This doesn't have to be HARD stuff to be worthwhile and memorable. 

 

Exploring Nature With Children Here's that science with nature walks I was telling you about. It's sort of deceptively powerful. Pair it with a picture book or youtube video she understands, and do it just once a week. 



#66 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:27 PM

I am working with her on her writing assignments. She does the keyword outline, and then we discuss it. Yesterday, was asking about one of the words she chose, and if she thought another word might have been more helpful. She started crying saying she was not good at it. At little later after getting settled down, we were putting the paragraph together from the outline. I was asking her questions about the paragraph to prompt her as she was putting words together for a sentence. We had tears again.

If a child is struggling to answer in complete sentences, she's probably not yet ready to narrate. And if she's not yet ready to narrate, she's not ready to do the even MORE advanced skill of writing a summary or retelling from an outline. That's where language testing comes in and that's where you start backing way, way up.

 

My ds has a gifted IQ, same age, 99th percentile vocabulary, and what have we been doing for "writing" the last 6-9 months? Sequencing pictures. Making dialogue to go with pictures we sequence. Matching sentences to the pictures and sequencing them. Trying different orders of the pictures and retelling the story. Taking the story we sequenced and telling it from a new perspective (narrator), new time (past, present, future), adding a sentence about what might happen NEXT, etc. 

 

We've also been doing a workbook from Super Duper on WH-questions. Again, you would not think my ds has that issue, just to meet him, but he does! So we look at the picture prompt and answer questions (where, when, who, why, what, etc.), and then we ask our own questions about the picture.

 

Those two things, working on sequencing and wh questions were HARD for my ds and have paid BIG REWARDS. That's how much we had to back up. I don't know how much you need to back up, and you don't yet have data. An SLP could get you that data. The TONL (test of narrative language) would show you something probably. I know you need to back up. The question is only how much.

 

Other things we're doing for writing? Scholastic has a Success with Writing and Success with Grammar series. They go through a lot of basics like punctuation, forming complete sentences, adding description, etc. You're saying you have issues with compliance. Well worksheets are a way we work on compliance. They reduce anxiety, are predictable, and have a very gradual, predictable progression. Even if she doesn't need it, you get momentum just by doing something where she's AWESOME at it, where it's actually in reach, where it's actually working. We just finished the 1st grade books in that series. My ds is the same age as your dd, gifted IQ. Me, I make no bones about backing up. When I back up that much, I get a positive dynamic and compliance. Then he works double pace with me. Like literally, we do 15-20 worksheets a day like that. Some are math, some LA, some brain teasers and motivating pages. Think about that. I back WAY UP and in return I get positive momentum, reduced anxiety, predictability, and compliance. And they really aren't so bad! It's sneaky reading. It's good stuff, and it fits where he is.


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#67 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:44 PM

We've been using play to build narratives. What does she like to play? Does she play with any toys? If she doesn't, does she know how or is it that she actually isn't very good at play? My ds has very rigid play. He used to just line the figures up, same thing, every time. So the behaviorist came in and they started building narratives using play. And I'm thinking about it because this evening my ds was telling me, out of the blue, this long sequence of all the things happening in his play scene. He was explaining what each side was doing, where the forts were, etc. It was a really good narration, in the most classical sense!

 

But to get to that point, look at all we did with work on sequencing, being able to make single sentences with a picture prompt, etc. etc. It didn't just happen like it does for more typical kids. 

 

Short Story Sequencing This is a later book in a series that starts out much more simply

 

Fairy Tale Sequencing  This one is too hard for him right now.

 

Read, Think, Cut & Paste We did this one first and got a LOT of benefit from it. We kicked it up a lot, but we did it. 

 

216 Fold & Say "WH" Question Scenes Book  This is that wh-questions book. It was surprisingly hard for ds when we started. How is her reciprocal conversation? Is she using wh-questions in conversation? If she's not, she might benefit from this book.

 


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#68 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:54 PM

Math is a constant battle. I have cut her lessons in half to help her get through them. There were days she would take two hours to do her math. I tired working for ten minutes, taking a break, work some more. I tried do three problems and get up and do ten jumping jacks (or run around the house). I tried doing a portion and then do another subject and then come back to it. I also tried having her work the problems out loud. Cutting the lessons in half has definitely helped. She seems to be able to get through it without as many battles.

 

Do you feel the instruction in the math fits her? It sounds like you're saying attention is an issue but the materials themselves are not. That's a mercy. My dd was very frustrating to work with and hard to keep focused. She's straight ADHD, no SLDs. I used to have her do laps, etc. Honestly, none of it really works. If you want to bust through it, get the meds and be done with it. I'm an all organic, crunchy kinda person myself, home births, (no home chickens, sorry), etc., and you know at some point you just go wow it sucks but some things just go better on meds. If you have maxed out your ability to accommodate, then it's time for meds.

 

Now one strategy that works for some people, so long as they don't have issues with transitions, is having a pile and using timers. So they'll make a pile with the tasks and rotate through the pile every 10 minutes when the timer goes off. The changing of things keeps them more fresh and focused. So then, instead of breaks that are off-task, she'd be taking breaks ON-task. It's a strategy you can use and that teachers use, building in breaks that are still working toward your goals. So, for instance with my ds' pile of 15-20 worksheets, I'll have 2 that are task and 1 reward page. Or if it's a series of reading comprehension worksheets (one or two pages that they read, like maybe a paired fiction/non-fiction set of readings with 3 pages of comprehension stuff), then I might have 2 pages of rewards. So we're on-task, but it's still mentally a break and variety. 

 

The other thing you could do is look into Zones of Reg (which you just ordered, yes?) or 360 Thinking. The 360 Thinking people did a fabulous webinar a while back. You coudl get on their FB group or email or whatever and try to find out when they do another one. They also have a book. The point there is not so much that you'd solve everything immediately. The point is getting a vision for how to help HER take ownership and set goals and use her tools like timers and transfer some of this from you to her. So YOU do it and then you teach her how. It's a process.

 

One of the BEST things I did with my dd was helping her learn how to take ownership. Everything we did with tech, with using her tools, with learning how to work with herself, has paid off RICHLY. 

 

But really, at some point, meds are awesome. If you think the school was presumptive, maybe your ped can do the Quotient or something. You're at that age (9-11) where a lot of disability stuff becomes really obvious. There's a jump up in the material and difficulty and expectations and kids can no longer mask. It makes it a good time to consider meds.



#69 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:01 PM

She hates any type of correction. She immediately goes to "I'm no good at this," and shuts down. Once she has shut down, she will either not do anything or she will act like she knows absolutely nothing. I can ask her what two plus two is, and she will tell me she doesn't know.

We also have battles when she doesn't want to do something. There have been times she has told me she won't do something I ask her to do. She tells me no (with a foot stomp and all). She will scream at me, I will ask her to go to her room to settle down a little, she still stomp off screaming at me.

 

Well then don't correct her. Like you were giving an example in the writing exercise where it turned into is this word good enough, could another word be better. You've got a kid with clinical anxiety but you're letting a curriculum drive her into worry warts over whether another word would be BETTER??? There's a school of thought that says with resistant kids we need to eliminate even positive reinforcement, because positive reinforcements imply the expectation that they'll need to do it again next time, which is stressful. The guy on the FB group for Autism Discussion Page was just talking about this. You might glean some good ideas if you go join there. 

 

Think about what could happen if you upped the structure, decreased the difficulty or backed up to where the material would be definitely within reach, and then were just very matter of fact, deadpan about it. Eventually she'd get into a routine like this is what we do, we do our 15 pages of worksheets, then we do our unit study for the day, then we're done. Very predictable, very matter of fact. At least that works for my ds. And now that he CAN choose to work with me, we can work anywhere. Some days he's really on and we just sit down and blow through stuff. Sometimes we'll watch a show and stop every few minutes and do another page or two. I try to be flexible on it and meet him where he is. I find that the compliance component to doing the pile of worksheets is effective even if it is through a couple tv shows. 

 

If you haven't googled it yet, try looking on youtube for people doing compliance drills. Sounds hokey but they really put my ds in a much calmer place.

 

For the screaming, you might try to do an activity for 5 minutes *before* the situation where that tends to occur and see if you can put her in a better place. Mindfulness, Yoga for kids type activities, positive mindfulness (talking about your favorite things or making a list for writing of your favorite foods, favorite anything), back rubs, good sensory, anything.

 

Zones is going to give you some language for what is going on there. You might try PLANNING in the breaks for her to leave. Instead of waiting till she screams, you could make a little STOP sign on a popsicle stick or have a break card that she holds up. Make it funny, like any signal she wants to use INSTEAD OF SCREAMING, that she uses to say she's ready for that break. So you tell her hey, since it seems like you usually need a break during math, let's PLAN on it! And if you signal me in this appropriate way (that you chose together, like the sign or a code word or patting a stuffed animal or just saying "I need a break" or whatever), if you do that BEFORE you go red zone with the screaming, then *I* will give you this chocolate bar (or Wendy's frosty coupon or whatever would be motivating) when you come back nicely from your break. I can't do that EVERY time or I'll go broke, but for now while we're learning this new skill and I just happen to have Wendy's frosty coupons from halloween, I can offer that. But if you wait until you go red zone and are screaming, I won't be able to offer it because I'll be so distressed I'll need a break. 

 

So that's a way to keep it positive and maybe even bring in some high value motivators if you want. I'll bet that's a problem you could solve if you worked on it. Making requests for breaks is HUGE! When kids have trouble with academics AND can't self-advocate, the working on the ability to request a break appropriately is a BIG DEAL, worth spending time on. 

 

It's another reason to drop the difficulty of the material and increase the structure and predictability, because you're not going to be able to do lots of fancy instruction AND work on behavior. You're either working on behavior OR you're working on academics. When you get the behavior piece improved, then it's a whole lot easier to go back and do some academics, kwim? 

 

You can also have days where you really focus on asking for breaks appropriately. Like you can put a whole stack of Wendy's coupons in front of you or a bag of potato chips or whatever is highly motivating, and you can say hey, we're going to play a game! Every time I say "Let's take a break" you go take a break nicely at x location using the tools we've practiced that you use while on break. So if you want a break spot in your school room, you can practice that and practice what she will do in that spot and what her choices are. And if the spot is her room, fine, practice that too. And literally sit there and just randomly call break so you do it like 5 times in an hour! The frequency will normalize it and give her practice. Use motivators so it's fun. Then let HER start to advocate for a break and say "I need a break!" and get to do the break. 


Edited by PeterPan, 05 December 2017 - 10:12 PM.


#70 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:21 PM

We belong to a homeschool co-op, and the kids do short presentations each week. The mom who leads the presentations will choose the order the kids will go in. She likes to go last. We have had weeks were she is not able to go last. She has refused to do her presentation and will sit and cry because she did not get her way.

 

Ok, this is where having a diagnosis would make you more brave to advocate and get what she needs. Frankly, the way that mom is leading the class is creating unnecessary stress and has no educational value. There's no reason the order should be unpredictable and lead to anxiety for a child who clearly has anxiety. Your dd is showing she's rigid and has difficulty problem solving. But that's fine too, because frankly the adults are making it worse! 

 

If that were my ds, where my ds is now, I'd probably have a discussion with him about ways to problem solve. I'd say you know, this is what's happening, and I was thinking about ways we could make this better. You've said that you want to do the talks (does she?) and I want you to be able to do the talks that you want to do. So let's think about some ways to make this better. We could ask the teacher to let you have the same slot every time and have the others rotate. We could ask the teacher to do some fair method (draw from hats, whatever) and to do it the session before, so everyone always knows what order they'll be going in. We could withdraw from the class because the teacher is too rigid to work with any accommodations and we don't need that stress. We could choose to take some herbs or medication for anxiety or do some mindfulness and calming strategies ahead. We could asked to be paired with our buddy so that we always know we'll be going AFTER that person, even if the order within the hour is different. We can think up more ways we could make this better.

 

When you do that, you're modeling collaboration, problem solving, flexibility, etc. You're showing her the skills you want her to have. She's not going to get there on her own, but she might with assistance from you. That flexibility and ability to say I have a problem but we can try to make it better, that's HUGE! You can talk about the size of the problem.

 

What I wouldn't allow to have happen is that she continues to be frustrated by a rigid, capricious adult who won't consider the disability needs of the children in the class. Has this women ever been a professional teacher? I'm sorry, but homeschool classes are typically taught by other moms. This means the quality can be HORRIBLE and their skill set as teachers extremely limited. They might have been fine teachers for their own kids, but they might be a HORRIBLE fit for yours. And the more complex the disabilities, the more likely it is you will need to inform the teacher of the needs of your dc. YOU are the expert, and you want to make sure your dd is learning the right lesson. Learning how to collaborate and problem solve, how to trust that the adult will help her problem solve if she asks for help, these are more important lessons than the speech. And maybe you roll with it, but you recognize that her symptoms are legit and that reasonable people would want to help that and not just leave her struggling.


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#71 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:30 PM

I had been checking her work with every subject and checking off when it was done. We had a week last year where we found out she was lying to me about getting her work done, so before she could be done with the subject I checked it. I had a day last week, where I got behind checking work. I had sick twins and I was sick. She was telling me work was finished when it wasn't, so I told her I needed to check everything again before she could move on. She lost it. I asked her for her assignment sheet, and she wouldn't give it to me. I honestly don't remember how that one resolved, I did her her assignment sheet, and she has been bringing it to me again.

 

You're doing a really good thing using checklists! To me it sounds like she's having difficulty problem solving. She has this problem (did she do the work, could she, etc.), so to solve it she's hiding. So you're going to have to recognize that SHE doesn't know why she's having the problem or how to solve it. YOU are going to have to sleuth and figure it out and put words to her and, without condemnation, help her solve the problem. 

 

It is possible to view behaviors as communication rather than only sin/defiance. It's really easy to say well she didn't do it because she didn't want to. Maybe, sure. But you've also described a dc who literally CAN'T do any of her work independently. She seems to need a scribe, has work that is multi-level and not in reach on her level, etc. She has comprehension issues that probably make it challenging for her to read instructions and work independently. 

 

Independent work is a skill you build. You might try having a plan B for sick days. You've got a lot of moving parts in your house. Why is independent work the only option? How about a Plan B? Something like on days Mommy doesn't feel well, this is the plan. And you write it out and it's a list of things she has shown she definitely can do independently. And you make sure it's short and includes motivators. So like it says listen to audiobooks 30 minutes, watch 2 episodes of Beverly Hillbillies, and make something with playdough. That's her list. I'm just making it up. But that to me was reading, history, and writing. It's stuff you know she can get done, and the world doesn't end. It was compliance and tomorrow will be better.

 

I used to do Mom's Day Off lists with my dd. I would give her a list every Wednesday that was totally different. I think for a while I did themed packets from Enchanted Learning. Sometimes I sent her to her grandma's with things like a napkin folding book. It's really good to have a plan B! It teaches her a good thing too, because she's dealing with some rigidity. So that plan B concept will save you in other things where you can say if it goes wrong, this is plan B. You're practicing a life skill.


Edited by PeterPan, 05 December 2017 - 10:31 PM.


#72 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:34 PM

She is a perfectionist, just like me, so I get it. (I ended up in out patient treatment for an eating disorder about 15 years ago. I know what it is like to be hard on yourself.). Her emotions are all over the place. There is really no middle ground. If she's happy, she's over the top happy. When she's mad or upset, everyone needs to stay out of her way.

Life outside of schoolwork is pretty similar. She melts down when she thinks she can't do something, or something doesn't go her way. She screams or has temper tantrums if she doesn't want to do something. She will joke around with her siblings and say silly things to them, but if they say the same thing to her, she gets upset. The two older girls were sitting in the couch watching a video for history. Their brother sat next to them watching. He was actually sitting still not bothering anyone. (I was a bit amazed as I watched him.). DD for some reason had slid over in the couch unintentionally, but was now touching her brother. She got upset because he was bothering her. I asked her to move over back to where she was. She insisted she had not moved and he was the one who had moved because he wanted to bother her. I tried to explain that even though she didn't think she had moved and had not purposely moved, I needed her to slide over a little to make room for her brother. She refused to move. I gave her the option of moving over, or leaving the couch and finishing the video later on her own. She then moved over about an inch. I asked her to move again and told her this was the final chance. She did finally move, but with a big jump up and over and a loud "fine."

 

You're describing a serious need for Zones of Reg. Also, she would be a really good candidate for Mighteor. It would take you a bit of work because you might have to sit with her, but it would be WORTH it. It's really not pipe dreams. It targets interroception and self-awareness. Would probably give her a bump with time. Leah Kuypers, behind Zones of Reg, has been working with the Mighteor people. They pair nicely.



#73 PeterPan

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:35 PM

You probably were not looking for a huge reply like that. I do appreciate all of the suggestions and support.

 

A book for your book. :D  But seriously, if you want to learn things, keep asking. The best way to learn is to ask. You'll hear a lot of things, and some things will stick, some won't fit. 



#74 Storygirl

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:48 PM

Oh, so much good stuff in these answers!!!

 

I, too, see a lot of anxiety in your description. I have a child who shuts down when corrected and who will say, "I don't know,"  and will stick with that answer to the bitter end. Even if I tell him the answer outright and ask him to repeat, he will say, "I don't  know."

 

He actually doesn't have any learning disabilities, but working with him was so hard that I ultimately gave up homeschooling and enrolled all of my kids in school. I have two others with some intense LDs, but honestly, the anxious one who shuts down was the hardest to work with.

 

We had him evaluated by a NP (and did language testing and hearing testing), because some of the same issues continued with his teachers at school, and his only diagnosis is anxiety. But his NP testing identified the areas of weakness that are causing havoc but are not at low enough levels to get a diagnosis.

 

Anyway, I see so much anxiety in your daughter's responses. A lot of it, if you notice, is when you were asking her to remember things or to form a new idea (what new word could you use; what does the science experiment mean; how do we make a paragraph from these thoughts; can you remember this Bible verse). I see possible weaknesses in memory and in fluid thinking (google fluid thinking and see what you think).

 

For DS12, when his anxiety goes up, his ability to use his working memory and his fluid thinking go way down (and they are weaker areas to begin with). And he shuts down.

 

I used to try to push through it in homeschooling, but that was the wrong approach for him and never worked. He needs time to calm before he can think. Interestingly, the NP testing showed that he is much better able to problem solve 15 to 20 minutes after first seeing a question or problem.

 

I agree with others that what you are describing could have ASD at the root. One of the big academic difficulties with ASD is the inability to generalize, or apply learned material to a new problem or situation. It sounds to me as if your daughter is learning things as you are teaching them, but then she can't use the information to write, or to answer a question that requires her to summarize what happened; or to figure out why something happened that she observed in a science experiment.

 

She also may be focusing on details but missing the big picture. My other son is like that (he is close to the spectrum). He can recite a bunch of detailed things that happened in a book or remember what the experiment looked like. But he can't tell you what it means or how ideas connect together. It's often referred to as "seeing the trees but not the forest."


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#75 Storygirl

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:13 AM

Just a little thing that happened today that shows how DS13 remembers details but doesn't understand what they mean. He has trouble with reading comprehension, so I work with him at home on his reading for school (and he gets help at school as well).

 

Today they started reading a novel in language arts class. They read three chapters, and he was supposed to read the fourth for homework. Now, DS's comprehension is greatly helped by repeated readings, so we try to read everything with him at home that he has read for language arts class. He doesn't really like this and thinks that since he read it once, he's good. So he didn't want to re-read the three chapters with me at home. To prove that he didn't need to, in the car on the way home from school, he tried to tell me what had happened so far in the book.

 

I read the three chapters myself when we got home (they were very short), and chatted with him as I was reading. He did remember some very specific detailed things that happened, but there was a lot that he missed, even though the teacher read it out loud with them in class and stopped to explain things.

 

He said that the boy's parents had left him, and that his aunt and uncle didn't talk to each other, and that the boy yelled, "just talk" from the stage in the middle of a school performance, and that he met a girl with a suitcase.

 

All details that are (mostly) correct, but he didn't convey the sense of what was really happening in the story. It was just a list of details.

 

And he misses inference, and sometimes things just don't register. So the boy's parents didn't actually abandon him (totally what DS thought), but they went out for a date, left him with a sitter, and died before they could return home, so he became an orphan. The test actually says "orphan" but DS thought the parents went away and just chose not to come back, because the text said they "left him with the sitter."

 

And it is so easy for a teacher and/or parent not to realize that the child is not really understanding the story, because he can recite things that happened when you ask him.

 

I'm kind of wondering if your daughter has this kind of problem, even with things like Percy Jackson, that she likes. Since you say she has problems with comprehension, yet sometimes does not.

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, this son's comprehension issues did not show up on the school's IEP reading comprehension testing (he scored in the average range) but they are actually a major problem.

 

So, DS sees the trees (the parents left the child) but misses the forest (they died) and ends up with an incorrect understanding of what happened.

 

And this kind of problem affects all of his schoolwork. Math as well as the rest.


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#76 PeterPan

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:33 AM

Summarizing Resource Book Grade 1-2 | Carson-Dellosa Publishing

 

Inferring Resource Book Grade 1-2 | Carson-Dellosa Publishing

 

Cause & Effect Resource Book Grade 1-2 | Carson-Dellosa Publishing

 

Compare & Contrast Resource Book Grade 1-2 | Carson-Dellosa ...

 

I'm using this Spotlight on Reading series with my ds to good effect. It hits the subtle issues with comprehension that Storygirl is talking about. It's something intervention specialists will use in school. I'm not sure it's labeled as a tier of intervention (ie. there are much more detailed intervention materials available if you want to spend the money), but you see in the reviews where they're using it. Very gradual, visual, builds the concepts. I'm not sure it will be everything we'll ever use, but it has been good with my ds. And the bonus is it's worksheets, getting me compliance practice, easy to structure. 

 

This stuff is not independent btw. I read him the instructions and have him read the material on the page. I scribe. I usually do 1 page from each workbook each day, so that's a 4 page packet. I'll break it up into 2 and 2 with a motivator between. The pages go FAST but the gradual thought process building is really helpful and effective. I'm sure when we go to the next thing we'll have generalization issues, but still it has been useful to us.

 

We started with the gr 1/2 last year and are now in the 3/4 I think. I'd have to check my piles, but I think we are. I just print and move forward. The key is not to overshoot. Start where it's easy. These pages usually just take a couple minutes each. We're not talking about a big deal or something hard. We're talking about lots of little drip drip experiences. I find it has a synergistic effect, so the summarizing workbook builds skills that help us in writing, etc. 


Edited by PeterPan, 06 December 2017 - 07:36 AM.

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#77 Storygirl

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:44 AM

Lauraruth, I think you will probably need some time to digest all of the suggestions in this thread.

 

Your school evaluations didn't give you answers about how to help her, but I think there are a lot of practical suggestions here for how you can change up your homeschooling.

 

One thing you can do is to google the DSM5 criteria for diagnosing autism. You can find it online, and you can read it like a checklist and see whether you see red flags that would prompt you to get her tested.

 

The learning issues that you describe in your detailed post about what happens when she gets upset.... to me it sounds like the kind of problems a child with autism plus anxiety would have. The problems understanding are where I see the possible autism, and the shutting down is a possible anxiety response to the deep down trouble with understanding the material.

 

It's tough, because the school's results didn't show the problems with understanding that she very clearly is having. I can see why you found their report frustrating. I think her high IQ is masking her troubles. She can perform on the IQ tests, but she can't function on a daily basis.


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#78 Storygirl

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:01 AM

To me she sounds like a very literal, concrete thinker with a high IQ but lower working memory and fluid thinking. Her brain can understand the facts. But it can't connect the facts to a greater meaning that allows her to use what she has learned to produce thoughtful answers in her schoolwork. She also forgets things, so she has holes in her understanding.

 

She misses both pieces of information (facts) and the connections between them. So when she is asked to do a task that requires her to make connections, she breaks down into anxiety. It seems to you as her teacher that she has learned the information needed for the task and that the task is not asking too much of her. But her brain really is not able to produce answers to the questions.

 

I know when you have multiple kids and are trying to combine, that it is hard to find materials that work best for each individual. I had a very hard time meeting all of the needs of my kid while homeschooling, because their needs were so different from one another.

 

But I think to succeed in homeschooling, you will need to rethink what curricula you are using and what tasks you are asking her to do.

 

1) Texts with fewer words. Yes. Peter Pan mentioned this.

 

2) Scribe for her, so that she does not have to do thinking and writing at the same time.

 

3) Make sure all questions are concrete and literal. Do not expect her to come up with answer C because she has been given fact A and fact B.

 

That last one is super hard, because school programs are expecting the kids to develop and use critical thinking, both in comprehending texts and in answering questions, so any curricula that you purchase will probably need to be modified heavily by you as her teacher. She needs careful scaffolding.

 

Having a concrete thinker is hard, because we want them to be able to make those connections and jumps in thinking. In a way, we see that as the goal of education, to produce thinkers. But we have to find ways to bridge that gap for them, because they can't make the jumps themselves. We often refer to that kind of help as "scaffolding."

 

 


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#79 Storygirl

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:12 AM

If you don't think she is a literal, concrete thinker, than some of my last post won't seem to apply.

 

But your description of how she reacts to lessons sounds like a concrete thinker being asked to do more intuitive or inductive or inferential tasks and just breaking down, because her brain doesn't work that way, even though she is super smart.

 

And I agree about the Bible memory tasks. Is it for Awana (or some such program), or are you doing it on your own?

 

We only did Awana one year with my kids before I realized that a Bible memory program was not a good fit for my particular kids.

 

If you are doing the Bible memory on your own (or even if it is for church), adjust as needed. There is so much value in scripture memory, but if it is a chore for her, you may end up turning her off instead of encouraging her spiritual development. I'd be cautious.

1) Let her read her verses off of the card instead of memorizing them.

2) Give her most of the verse with just a few key words missing, so all she has to do is remember the key points and not all of the words.

3) Write the verses on sticky notes and paste them on the bathroom mirror, and practice them when brushing teeth.

4) Do not expect her to remember verses that she is not practicing daily. Either keep them in constant rotation, or expect that they will be forgotten and be okay with that.

 

Someone with memory issues may not ever be good at scripture memory, and that's okay!! The point really is to develop a close relationship with God and to know what is in His word, right? She can always look up verses. Teach her how to use a concordance. Work on knowing the Bible as a whole -- where to find certain chapters, so that she can find verses more quickly when she needs to look them up.

 

Don't turn something that is a spiritual help, not a requirement from God, into a spiritual stumbling block. If she can't memorize verses, she can still be a strong and faithful person. But if she develops a negative feeling about the Bible and learning verses, that is not going to pull her closer to God.

 

:grouphug:


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#80 Crimson Wife

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:46 AM

Reading the above makes me also wonder about possible autism spectrum.

 

ADHD can be irritable and emotional as can SPD--but the above sounds like more than that.

 

Yes, there is a lot of inflexibility described that could be characteristic of ASD.
 


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#81 Crimson Wife

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:57 AM

 

Someone with memory issues may not ever be good at scripture memory, and that's okay!! The point really is to develop a close relationship with God and to know what is in His word, right? She can always look up verses. Teach her how to use a concordance. Work on knowing the Bible as a whole -- where to find certain chapters, so that she can find verses more quickly when she needs to look them up.

 

Don't turn something that is a spiritual help, not a requirement from God, into a spiritual stumbling block. If she can't memorize verses, she can still be a strong and faithful person. But if she develops a negative feeling about the Bible and learning verses, that is not going to pull her closer to God.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Last year when DD tried Upward Bound cheerleading, I didn't even attempt to have her do the Scripture memorization part. It would be the equivalent of me trying to memorize the verse in the original Hebrew or Greek. I could do it with enough effort but it would be tedious rather than spiritually meaningful.

 

What I worked on with her was understanding the theme of the week in very simple terms she could understand. "God wants us to help others" or whatever. She can learn the Scripture when she's cognitively ready for that task.

 

 


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#82 Pen

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:16 AM

Could someone elaborate on the "high IQ" situation with the test results?  To me when I looked at the full scale !Q of 115, I thought that was "bright normal" range, with some individual scores above and some below that.  

 

I'm not especially experienced at interpreting scores, but I am wondering if maybe  the frequent emphasis on "high IQ" or looking at her scores as superior might add another dimension of stress and anxiety as it suggests that she might be able to do better than she actually is capable of doing, even aside from her areas of particular struggle.  She may need to be doing "normal" work for a 9yo, not advanced, and not be put together with her 3 years older big sister.  If she tends toward perfectionism and is in programs and with expectations that are too high for her, I would think that would add to the meltdowns and other problems.

 

Btw, my dc was in a school at one point that had verse memorization as one of the things they did.  At age 9 the students only learned one short verse each per whole school year.


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#83 Storygirl

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:51 AM

Pen, you may be right about the IQ thing. The scores are scattered, with highs and lows. I don't have my bell curve chart nearby. Those scores may fall mainly in the average category, some on the higher side.

 

And I think scattered scores like that definitely can lead to some confusion. High verbal ability in particular, I think can make people seem really bright to others, and then those people are taken by surprise when the person has difficulty. The assumption is that things should come easier. Which makes people think "lazy." :sad:

 

And even if the lazy judgement isn't made, it can be really frustrating as the teacher, because you think the kid should understand, but s/he just doesn't, and you can't tell where the disconnect is happening.

 

We have that issue with DS13, who has NVLD. His spread between scores is really wide, with higher verbal. I didn't think about it for the OP's daughter, because she doesn't share the same kind of score patterns that DS has. But yes, higher verbal scores in relation to other areas can definitely contribute to people thinking the child has a higher capability than is realistic.

 

Choosing simpler learning materials (as long as they are not boring) can really reduce frustration. So the child may end up learning MORE than if using higher level materials. Because it is accessible to them, and they are more likely to master it.


Edited by Storygirl, 06 December 2017 - 11:58 AM.

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#84 Pen

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:41 PM

www.assessmentpsychology.com/genius2.htm
 

An average score is generally considered to be any score that falls within one standard deviation above or below the mean (100 +/- 16 or 84-116 on the Stanford-Binet scale and 85-115 on the Wechsler intelligence scales, which have a standard deviation of 15, and are the most commonly used IQ tests today). 

 

https://wechslertest.com/about-wechsler/wechsler-intelligence-scale

The Full Scale IQ score is determined by a formula that sums the Verbal and Performance IQ scores. A score beyond 130 is considered superior or "gifted", 120-129 is "very high", 110-119 are considered "bright normal", 



#85 Pen

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:53 PM

Lauraruth, How many hours of homeschool (including the co-op and homework time if any) is your daughter doing per day?

 

Is her behavior, meltdowns, tears, anxiety, etc., just as much of a problem when it is a vacation from school time, or are the emotional problems nearly all or mostly school related?



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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:23 PM

Could someone elaborate on the "high IQ" situation with the test results?  To me when I looked at the full scale !Q of 115, I thought that was "bright normal" range, with some individual scores above and some below that. 

 

With the lower processing and working memory subscores, you need to ignore the Full Scale IQ. What you would do is look at the subscores that correlate most strongly with "g" (underlying general intelligence). Fluid Reasoning has the highest correlation with "g", and then Visio-Spatial & Verbal Comprehension have slightly lower. If the child has known or suspected language-based LD's, then you would ignore that as well and just look at the FR & VS.
 


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#87 Pen

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

I guess I am still ...   not so sure how much of what is going on is some -ism or LD or Disorder or nutritional deficiency or dependency or _______

 

 

versus how much is disconnect between expectations and abilities.   

 

 

I'm increasingly thinking there is some of more than one thing going on, including disconnect between expectations and abilities.



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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:38 PM

When you've got a "twice exceptional" child (gifted/very bright + LD's) it is really, really, REALLY hard to find an appropriate challenge level.

 

I've got a kid whose underlying non-verbal IQ is in the gifted range but that's coupled with language-based LD's putting her verbal IQ in the borderline-low range a few years ago (the school just did updated IQ testing so I'll be curious to see what the results are once the report is ready). Classic "feet in the freezer and head in the oven" situation. She does awesome at math tasks that rely on visual perception and pattern recognition but struggles with all the [expletive deleted] word problems in the awful Common Core math program her school is using. :cursing:


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#89 Pen

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:38 PM

With the lower processing and working memory subscores, you need to ignore the Full Scale IQ. What you would do is look at the subscores that correlate most strongly with "g" (underlying general intelligence). Fluid Reasoning has the highest correlation with "g", and then Visio-Spatial & Verbal Comprehension have slightly lower. If the child has known or suspected language-based LD's, then you would ignore that as well and just look at the FR & VS.
 

 

 

Then it seems like the FR and VS alone do put her in the "high" category.  But  I am still not sure that the demands/expectations fit her abilities.  

 

And as much as the thing to do would be to ignore the areas that have lower figures, I would think that the problem areas are still going to get in the way of her being able to function well.   So especially if  her processing and working memory are not working well, but her curriculum requires high processing and reliance on working memory (which things like narrations may well do), couldn't that itself lead to a lot of frustration and distress?



#90 PeterPan

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:11 PM

With the lower processing and working memory subscores, you need to ignore the Full Scale IQ. What you would do is look at the subscores that correlate most strongly with "g" (underlying general intelligence). Fluid Reasoning has the highest correlation with "g", and then Visio-Spatial & Verbal Comprehension have slightly lower. If the child has known or suspected language-based LD's, then you would ignore that as well and just look at the FR & VS.
 

 

Yes, and I think when you compared those to her achievement scores, the conclusion was she's a *bright* dc. And there are also kids who perform above what their testing said. We've had some really discrepant testing here on the boards from ps, like people being told LD and the scores shifted to gifted range. So if they could have calculated a GAI and didn't (I'm not a guru, I don't know), then it just makes you wonder about the whole thing. So I'm just observing that there are scores in there that would have been used for the GAI that fit the achievement scores that are in the bright category.

 

Low expectations don't help anyone. We don't need to be unrealistic, obviously, but sometimes it's actually helpful to use the right words, so say this kid is bright, that's why this doesn't feel right, that's why it's not right to say she's lazy, something is actually going on making it hard, etc.


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#91 Lauraruth

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

She is very analytical. She thinks in black and white, so the knowing the facts but not being able to apply them makes sense. I can also see anxiety causing some issues.

She is actually very good at memorizing. I’m amazed at how well she memorizes. We do Bible verses and are also doing the IEW poetry. Both of the girls have fun with the poems. We aren’t rushing through them, just having fun with them. There are just occasional days when she gets tripped up and can’t recover.

The co-op is a group of my friends. The person who does the presentations is aware of our struggles and also has a son with sensory issues. We also have a boy with OCD and anxiety. We do our best to accommodate all of the children. Occasionally we have multiple children who all want the same thing. Unfortunately it is not possible for multiple children to go last and we have to make choices.

We have not discussed the test results with her other than to tell her she had done well. We are trying to make sense of everything and figure out what we are going to do next.

I did order Zones of Regulation. It came earlier this week. I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet.

Her older sister is actually 19 months older. They do have a few subjects they do together. They do Bible, history, science, and Latin together. I know Latin is one of those extra subjects, but she enjoys it and is good at it. We also do read alouds together. The rest she does at her grade level and moves at her speed.

I’m not sure how I can not correct her. If she misspells a word, we look at it and make sure she knows the correct spelling. If she misses one problem on a worksheet, we will review it to make sure she understands. I don’t grade anything at this point with either girl. I don’t want the focus to be on grades.

I actually timed school time a few weeks ago. It seemed to take so long to get through the work, and I wanted to know where the issues were. Most days she spent about 3 1/2-4 hours of actual work time. Co-op days are longer. We’re usually there from 9-12 two Fridays a month. We take a lot of breaks and we are doing more of the fun elective classes with a lot of activities. On those days she has about 1 1/2 hours school work. Normal days with all of her brain breaks, lunch, snacks, and playing it was taking her around 7 hours. Most of our work is scheduled Mon-Thurs. I keep Friday as a catch up day. So some Fridays there is an hour of work, others there may be three.

We do have issues outside of school as well. The temper tantrums are less frequent, but the melt downs and tears are still common. She is the most loving and helpful child when she is in a good mood. She helps with whatever I need. She will take care of the twins, play with them, read to them, and is a really good big sister. When things don’t go her way, she is a completely different child. The four kids were playing a game one evening when I heard her start yelling and her brother yelling back. She was trying to disqualify her brother, which he didn’t like. The other three told me she had not followed a rule and should be out. She claimed she did not and got upset. She yelled at them and said they were lying even though all four had the same story. Nothing is ever her fault. If she is accused of something, everyone else is lying. She also always needs to be in charge. She sets the rules and tell everyone what they need to do.

She really is a good kid, and I know she is trying. She is in a good mood most of the time. It’s just the melt downs are can be so extreme. I will say there have been a couple times in the last few days that she has surprised me. We were at the store the other day and she wanted something. I told her it was not something we needed. She asked please, and I said no. She started crying a little, and was able to compose herself fairly quickly. Last night I was giving the kids their Christmas pjs (which we normally do on Thanksgiving, but we’ve had sick kids so we finally did it last night). They’ve been excited to get them. All the kids put theirs on and hers were too small. I was really worried about how she would handle not getting hers. She actually was just fine. She told me she would just wear last year’s to bed. There were no tears. So, I do see glimpses of hope.

Edited by Lauraruth, 06 December 2017 - 03:14 PM.

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#92 Lauraruth

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:21 PM

I know I’m guilty of high expectations. I said earlier that I am a perfectionist, and as much as I try, that sometimes creeps with my expectations of the kids. I want them to do well. School comes very easily for my oldest. I know they are different children, but again I’m human and I know I compare them unintentionally. I have been adjusting my expectations and I’m doing my best to figure out how to best help her. I struggle with that thin line of challenging her so she will grow and overwhelming her.
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#93 kbutton

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:03 PM

Then it seems like the FR and VS alone do put her in the "high" category.  But  I am still not sure that the demands/expectations fit her abilities.  

 

And as much as the thing to do would be to ignore the areas that have lower figures, I would think that the problem areas are still going to get in the way of her being able to function well.   So especially if  her processing and working memory are not working well, but her curriculum requires high processing and reliance on working memory (which things like narrations may well do), couldn't that itself lead to a lot of frustration and distress?

 

This comes down to individual functioning in a lot of ways--my kiddos both have different issues going on, and they are very different to teach. One is much more bothered by processing issues than the other, and sometimes, it's very dependent on the day or subject. Yet, my kiddo who has less of an issue with processing and (so far) has shown greater ability on testing moves through materially more slowly. It's not like I can point to an issue on paper, and say, "See, this explains that problem we're having..." It's more anecdotal and working it through while talking with others. 

 

Yes, and I think when you compared those to her achievement scores, the conclusion was she's a *bright* dc. And there are also kids who perform above what their testing said. We've had some really discrepant testing here on the boards from ps, like people being told LD and the scores shifted to gifted range. So if they could have calculated a GAI and didn't (I'm not a guru, I don't know), then it just makes you wonder about the whole thing. So I'm just observing that there are scores in there that would have been used for the GAI that fit the achievement scores that are in the bright category.

 

Low expectations don't help anyone. We don't need to be unrealistic, obviously, but sometimes it's actually helpful to use the right words, so say this kid is bright, that's why this doesn't feel right, that's why it's not right to say she's lazy, something is actually going on making it hard, etc.

 

Exactly!

 

I've been to enough presentations on 2e kids to know that her higher scores interpreted by another tester would be interpreted as 2e scores, not just "bright" scores. Presentations by gifted experts often include scores in the mid-120's and higher when the child is suspected to be 2e.

 

I know I’m guilty of high expectations. I said earlier that I am a perfectionist, and as much as I try, that sometimes creeps with my expectations of the kids. I want them to do well. School comes very easily for my oldest. I know they are different children, but again I’m human and I know I compare them unintentionally. I have been adjusting my expectations and I’m doing my best to figure out how to best help her. I struggle with that thin line of challenging her so she will grow and overwhelming her.

 

I don't know what "evidence" you have that confirms a 2e interpretation vs. a "bright" child from when she was little, but I want to be sure you know that this is hard stuff to figure out! My own kids have had IQ scores that varied quite a lot--my impressions from when they were little have, so far, panned out. One kid that had some really wonky testing at younger years recently scored in the profoundly gifted category. My impression when he was little was that he was super, super intelligent, and early testing showed gifted but not excessively so. However, it's important to realize that my son doesn't function as PG in all areas--he's really, really uneven, and he has language issues that put him super low in some places. 

You need more data. Don't get too wrapped up in what you are doing right and wrong until you have it, but be open-minded about what you might have to adjust. I still can have some really high expectations for my kids, but they still require accommodations and sometimes outright intervention even with their high IQs. That doesn't mean my expectations are too high, necessarily, but it does mean that my expectations about function need to change to fit what they can do now. Capabilities and function aren't always in sync.


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#94 PeterPan

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:40 PM

3 1/2 hours of work a day for a 9 yo?? You consider her 3rd grade or 4th? My ds misses the cutoff with a fall b-day, so he's 9 and a 3rd grader per his IEP. We may or may not grade adjust at some point. Does she also do Bible, read alouds, personal reading, etc. in the evening? Remember, those things count as school too. Like when people say grade + 1 (which has a limit obviously), they INCLUDE the time for reading. So if she is able to read (I've forgotten, sorry) or listens to audiobooks (like my ds), those count toward that "school" time. 

 

I think the challenge is not whether that amount of time is good in general but whether she's able to handle it and have the expected behavior. For my ds, 3 hours with breaks is a significant amount of work. but he's a boy. I can see why you like that amount, but maybe try working on how she takes breaks, the frequency, self-advocating, etc. so that being calm becomes the norm. You can make note of the amount of time it takes her to recover when she loses her calm. For my ds, that time used to be 45 minutes to an hour, sometimes 1-3 hours, depending. So if it's taking her a long time to bounce back, then that's another sign that you need to modify things. Now my ds, when he needs a break, can go do it for 5-10 minutes, and then he just reappears and we resume working. That's really healthy and a level we can live with, kwim? That's a place you can get to if you're not there yet, by learning Zones of Regulation and working on it.

 

Actually there's a whole theory of education (in writing, math, spelling, etc.), that you should let errors go uncorrected but quietly review it before the NEXT assignment. 

 

I'm reading what you're putting here about her behavior outside of school. That control level is SO typical of autism. You just have SO many glaring issues here. And maybe there are other explanations, but you've definitely got issues. If you do something like Mighteor, which is software, what it's going to do is help her *feel* what her body is doing. So then you'll be able to tell her to take a calming break, use her strategies, and whether it's play or school work, the same strategies, same tools will be there.

 

I really think the going last thing is a red herring. The issue is reducing anxiety by increasing predictability. You don't want UNCERTAINTY. Uncertainty increases anxiety. The teacher can simply let them know ahead of time, not waiting till the last minute. And you can work on mindfulness and calming strategies she can use to manage her anxiety about it. But the uncertainty portion is controllable by the teacher and unnecessary. That's what you should advocate to change.

 

And yes, she sounds like a very sweet child!!  :)


Edited by PeterPan, 06 December 2017 - 04:41 PM.


#95 Crimson Wife

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:35 PM

Then it seems like the FR and VS alone do put her in the "high" category.  But  I am still not sure that the demands/expectations fit her abilities.  

 

And as much as the thing to do would be to ignore the areas that have lower figures, I would think that the problem areas are still going to get in the way of her being able to function well.   So especially if  her processing and working memory are not working well, but her curriculum requires high processing and reliance on working memory (which things like narrations may well do), couldn't that itself lead to a lot of frustration and distress?

 

I'm not saying to ignore the limitations the processing speed and WM are placing on her. I was responding to your question about why people are saying your child has an underlying gifted IQ.

 

With 2E kids, the educator needs to address both the strengths AND the weaknesses. The child is going to be capable of more than a student who has across-the-board low or average scores. So it's important not to underchallenge them and set expectations too low. But at the same time, the LD's will be an obstacle to performing at the level that the underlying high IQ suggests. The super-tricky thing is finding that appropriate challenge level. Too high, and the child is left frustrated. Too low, and the child is left bored and/or not achieving to his/her true potential.
 


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#96 Pen

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:56 AM

She is very analytical. She thinks in black and white, so the knowing the facts but not being able to apply them makes sense. I can also see anxiety causing some issues.

1) She is actually very good at memorizing. I’m amazed at how well she memorizes. We do Bible verses and are also doing the IEW poetry. Both of the girls have fun with the poems. We aren’t rushing through them, just having fun with them. There are just occasional days when she gets tripped up and can’t recover.

1) The co-op is a group of my friends. The person who does the presentations is aware of our struggles and also has a son with sensory issues. We also have a boy with OCD and anxiety. We do our best to accommodate all of the children. Occasionally we have multiple children who all want the same thing. Unfortunately it is not possible for multiple children to go last and we have to make choices.

We have not discussed the test results with her other than to tell her she had done well. We are trying to make sense of everything and figure out what we are going to do next.

2) I did order Zones of Regulation. It came earlier this week. I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet.

1) Her older sister is actually 19 months older. They do have a few subjects they do together. They do Bible, history, science, and Latin together. I know Latin is one of those extra subjects, but she enjoys it and is good at it. We also do read alouds together. The rest she does at her grade level and moves at her speed.

3) I’m not sure how I can not correct her. If she misspells a word, we look at it and make sure she knows the correct spelling. If she misses one problem on a worksheet, we will review it to make sure she understands. I don’t grade anything at this point with either girl. I don’t want the focus to be on grades.

4) I actually timed school time a few weeks ago. It seemed to take so long to get through the work, and I wanted to know where the issues were. Most days she spent about 3 1/2-4 hours of actual work time. Co-op days are longer. We’re usually there from 9-12 two Fridays a month. We take a lot of breaks and we are doing more of the fun elective classes with a lot of activities. On those days she has about 1 1/2 hours school work. Normal days with all of her brain breaks, lunch, snacks, and playing it was taking her around 7 hours. Most of our work is scheduled Mon-Thurs. I keep Friday as a catch up day. So some Fridays there is an hour of work, others there may be three.

5) We do have issues outside of school as well. The temper tantrums are less frequent, but the melt downs and tears are still common. She is the most loving and helpful child when she is in a good mood. She helps with whatever I need. She will take care of the twins, play with them, read to them, and is a really good big sister. When things don’t go her way, she is a completely different child. The four kids were playing a game one evening when I heard her start yelling and her brother yelling back. She was trying to disqualify her brother, which he didn’t like. The other three told me she had not followed a rule and should be out. She claimed she did not and got upset. She yelled at them and said they were lying even though all four had the same story. Nothing is ever her fault. If she is accused of something, everyone else is lying. She also always needs to be in charge. She sets the rules and tell everyone what they need to do.

She really is a good kid, and I know she is trying. She is in a good mood most of the time. It’s just the melt downs are can be so extreme. I will say there have been a couple times in the last few days that she has surprised me. We were at the store the other day and she wanted something. I told her it was not something we needed. She asked please, and I said no. She started crying a little, and was able to compose herself fairly quickly. Last night I was giving the kids their Christmas pjs (which we normally do on Thanksgiving, but we’ve had sick kids so we finally did it last night). They’ve been excited to get them. All the kids put theirs on and hers were too small. I was really worried about how she would handle not getting hers. She actually was just fine. She told me she would just wear last year’s to bed. There were no tears. So, I do see glimpses of hope.

 

 

reply to parts above with "1)"

 

I understand that for each thing it seems like it is mostly good.  However, assuming it is true what you posted about tears and meltdowns being a most days thing, overall it seems like there must be too much.  This can happen when there are too many extracurriculars too.  If each is looked at in isolation, it all seems great, but when put together it turns out that it is too much and something needs to give way--or else there will inevitably be meltdowns.

 

Adding in my own mind that she must have reading, writing and arithmetic, and I hope something for physical education, and then the ones you specify, like Latin and Bible, I've come up with that she seems to have around 10 course subjects.  (PE, Latin, Bible, 2 fun elective subjects at co-op, science, history, reading, writing, arithmetic)

 

That is A Lot!!!   And very possibly it is too much.  Especially when there seem to be some problems like SPD and perhaps untreated ADHD that are known about.  And trying to remediate in some areas.

 

2) I hope that will help

 

3) Actually, it is not necessary to correct everything.  Doesn't IEW itself teach to work on just one or two things at a time and to find what is going right and improving?  

 

And it is not necessarily necessary to look at the wrong item on worksheet with her and emphasize that.  You could say "Yay! You put in a lot of effort and  this worksheet is almost perfect, let's put 2 gold stars for your effort, two gold stars for your good attitude while doing it, and a gold star for it being nearly perfect!"  You could note the one missed problem in your own mind and go over it at some future time, separate from that worksheet.  I'd feel like crying myself if I got nearly everything right, but my mom paid attention to the wrong one, over and over.  (Ask me how I know :) ).  Sometimes the perfect can be the enemy of the good.

 

4) Again, that is a lot!   Homeschool hours are usually more intense than BMS hours are, and at a BMS school too there would be lunch and recess and fun time and breaks as part of school time.  

 

It may need a sit down with your dd at a time when both of you are calm and doing okay, to say, look this seems like too intense and busy a schedule for us. We need to drop one or two of the optional classes you have so that there can be less stress.  Which of _______, ________, ___________, or ________ do you want to drop?  My guess is that you will feel that Math, Reading, and Bible are mandatory.  But not only is Latin not mandatory at age 9, neither really is history or science mandatory at that level.  And I'd suggest dropping at least one of those 3 for her at least until you and she are having less problems with meltdowns, maybe 2, maybe even all 3--and add them back in when she is more up to it emotionally or perhaps next year, or the year after.

 

5) Some  see more red flags of possible ASD in these descriptions.  To me though, this time, it sounds more like ADHD.

 

In addition to the Zones book, I suggest that you try to look at The Explosive Child, and also something by Daniel G. Amen on ADD  (Healing ADD or another that is more related to children with ADD)--maybe at your library or via interlibrary loan.



#97 Pen

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:21 AM

I'm not saying to ignore the limitations the processing speed and WM are placing on her. I was responding to your question about why people are saying your child has an underlying gifted IQ.

 

With 2E kids, the educator needs to address both the strengths AND the weaknesses. The child is going to be capable of more than a student who has across-the-board low or average scores. So it's important not to underchallenge them and set expectations too low. But at the same time, the LD's will be an obstacle to performing at the level that the underlying high IQ suggests. The super-tricky thing is finding that appropriate challenge level. Too high, and the child is left frustrated. Too low, and the child is left bored and/or not achieving to his/her true potential.
 

 

 

I asked the question, but it is not my dd.

 

My ds is very 2E, and one of my brothers and I probably also were to various degrees.  IME it is not just a matter of finding the right challenge level, but can be a matter of finding a whole different sort of program that will work well.  Or a different approach to the same program might work.

 

For my ds, for example, I found that the "classical" approach of WTM, etc., with its large amount of narrations and copywork, by and large was not a good fit for him at any level.  IEW was not a good fit for him, Saxon math was not a good fit for him -- and it was not a matter of level of IEW or level of Saxon.  Both were too challenging in his weak areas, and not challenging enough in his strong areas simultaneously.  Bravewriter which worked better for him for writing was not a "higher" or "lower" level than IEW, it was just an approach that fit him better. Various other math programs were not necessarily "higher" or "lower" or at least that is not why they fit better or worse.  MUS was a good fit for a while because the page layout was dyslexia friendly, and Saxon was not dyslexia friendly, for example.  

 

SOTW as audio CDs was a great fit for him.  SOTW if he had had to read it would have been a terrible fit since by the time he could read it himself he would have been way too old for the somewhat babyish feel of the first books.  In that case it is the same exact thing, but the delivery changing so as not to depend on an area of weakness--and so as to capitalize on an area of strength -- made all the difference.


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#98 PeterPan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:53 AM

When pruning, I've found it easier to start with the amount of time the student can generally work and then only do what fits in that amount of time. I have different mottos now with ds, but one of them is "live to go at it again tomorrow." ;)  Some people will use a cycling approach to their lists, where they work through the list, draw a line where they stopped, and pick up there the next day. With ds, I usually have a packet and we try to get through it. If we are having a bad day, we might get half of it done and then just pick up the next day with the other half. 

 

That's where that duration on the meltdowns comes in. How long is the duration? Because if she's ready to work again in 5-10 minutes, that's really different from 1-2 hours. 


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#99 Lecka

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:52 AM

I also struggle with "appropriate challenge."  I manage to both think appropriate things are too hard, and legitimately not appropriate things should be appropriate. 

 

For me personally -- I have to have advice from my son's therapist and (since he attends school) school staff.  They have got more experience than I do, and they also have the outside view that I don't have. 

 

I think I have a harder time than other parents with this, though. 

 

But it is something to look for with any therapist you may end up with, or you may get it from another evaluation. 

 

It is hard! 

 

Edit:  and it's also just hard when kids are not fitting exactly into developmental levels where they usually will do certain things at certain ages ---- it's legitimately hard, it's not like I think I am doing a bad job, but I also think some people are better at it. 


Edited by Lecka, 07 December 2017 - 11:53 AM.

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#100 Lauraruth

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:37 PM

She is registered as a 4th grader. She was ready to start school when she started 1st grade. In the beginning she actually did better during school time than she did outside of school. I thought the routine of school was good for her at the time because her meltdowns occurred more in the day to day activities. She kept up with her sister in most subjects. She struggled with spelling, but my oldest is a very strong speller (probably better than I am), so I didn’t look at it as much struggling as she just wasn’t as strong as her sister. There was a time I thought she was going to move ahead of her sister in math.

As the work got harder, we had more issues, which makes sense looking back on it now.

I have never looked at her as exceptionally bright. The bell curve I was given with her eval shows her for the most part on the high end of average, which is where I would have guessed her to be. She is smart, but I would not say exceptionally bright. Before the eval, I had no idea what her IQ score was.

I believe that was someone else who asked about the scores for exceptionally bright.

I have talked to the girls about favorite subjects and what they would most definitely want to keep doing. Her top two were Latin and history. I know they aren’t required subjects, but she is enjoying them.

I really try to not dwell on the missed questions, especially if it was the first time the answer was wrong. However, she does math, history, and typing on the computer. Her work is corrected as she does it. I do try to focus on what she did right, and how well she did. I went through putting a ton of pressure on myself to get all A’s. It made me constantly afraid of not being good enough. I am doing everything I can to make sure none of my kids feel that way.
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