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How do you handle an intentionally difficult high schooler?


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*somewhat of a vent, but feel free to offer constructive advice*

 

I have an 11th grade student that does not and has never seen the value of academics.  He has struggled academically with a math learning disability- that is why we started homeschooling.  High school has been a "like pulling teeth" experience with him.  We have tried numerous different types of curricula for all subjects.  We have tried to help him see the connection between current choices (regarding education) and future success in life.  He just doesn't feel the need to suppress that "I hate what I'm doing" feeling with his teacher- me- and has his education at the end of his list of priorities.  Outsourcing is not an option- it's either me/at home or public school.  

 

He has maintained a fast food restaurant job for over a year and is an awesome employee.  He also has some exceptional goals for his future like "something in music," a professional video game player, or a tower climber- all while doing nothing for any of those goals. 

 

I feel I am left with 2 choices at this point-

 

either putting my foot down, connecting his effort in education to things he is directly more interested in, and ruining our relationship (which is important to me)- this is what we have been doing

 

or

 

leaving him to his own devices, letting him fail, lose credits, maybe a GED instead of a high school diploma, leaving me to feel as I have failed as his teacher, and maybe repairing some damage to our relationship.  

 

I'm not so worried about the outcome.  He has to learn there are consequences to actions, but I want what am supposed to do.  Fail as a teacher or mother- I feel like that is the choice I am left with.  Thanks for listening.  

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I think if you're at the point where he needs to experience natural consequences, maybe he should do it in public school. For one, maybe the outside accountability will help him "wake up." For two, if he fails there he's less likely to look back on the failure in later years as your fault, imho, thus preserving your future relationship as well as your current one.

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I have the same 11th grader. I chose to fail as a teacher, and try to salvage my role as his mother.  :crying:

 

It got to the point where I wanted "it" more than he did, and was killing myself AND our relationship in the process. "It" being myriad of things: home schooling, setting him up for the future job/career he envisioned, setting him up for the "bare minimum" future *I* envisioned for him (trade school or military) ... 

 

One day I totally lost my shizzle and he apologized for upsetting me but said he's not sorry for who he is - and he is "not the best student" (despite having goals that require he be). I chalked this up to immaturity, among other things, and in that moment I realized that home schooling was no longer going to work. Unfortunately, our local schools won't accept home school work (even from accredited 'schools') and while it was tempting to put him back in the 9th grade I knew I couldn't do that. Friends of ours did that at the start of this school year, and it did not go over very well. 

 

I have high expectations for my kids. My older two have full ride scholarships, and my younger one (10th grade) is more in line with them. This kid has always been the exception, and my expectations for him have always been reasonable to his abilities - I wanted him to qualify for NMSF, and that's all. I know he wasn't going to earn merit aid any other way, and test taking is easy for him. He came close in both 9th and 10th (practice tests), and we'll know shortly how he did this year (this is the year that matters.)

 

I told him these were our options:

1. GED - he had until July 30th to take it and was responsible for paying for it AND studying for it. I directed him to the library for assistance.

2. ENLISTMENT - he is 17 and was considering it anyway (though he wanted to go in as an officer, later in life).
3. DUAL ENROLLMENT - he'd be responsible for funding that himself, and getting himself there (so really it wasn't a TRUE option, but ...)

3. BARE BONES - basic high school graduation requirements (I drop my "wish list" classes, and he agrees to commit to what's left.)

 

bare bones = we do the bare minimum to meet state (and my basic HS) requirements. I spent a lot of time writing syllabi that included EVERY possible detail: assignments, due dates, etc. I anticipated questions and covered my butt for any of his excuses (within the context of the syllabi). For each subject I also included a chart on his syllabus. It had each week listed (e.g., 1-16), a column marked "Due" (for him to fill in), and a column marked "Turned in" (for him to check when he turned it in to me), and a column marked "grade" (for him to record when I returned work.)  

 

My goal was to turn over all responsibility to him, much like he'd get at a community college. And to eliminate the source of our struggles, which was him answering to me. Now he had the entire year mapped out and had to answer to IT instead. I didn't remind him when assignments were due, I just marked down that they weren't submitted. I didn't want him to completely fail, so I did give him progress reports every six weeks. Our schools are on a six week schedule for report cards, so it was easy.

 

We just completed the second six weeks, and he's only failing one class - and it's because I had a due date that was "far out" and he forgot about it. I gave him an extended deadline, and he forgot that also. So I gave him a zero and it was a test grade. His grades aren't where I want them to be, but ... whatever ... he's getting the work done-ish and we're not fighting. I only consider the grades he's recorded on his syllabi, too, even though I have also recorded them on my own copies. Part of his problem is being irresponsible and messy. He still hates the work, but I've eliminated some of the stuff he REALLY hated so he's better able to manage what's left (and required by the state.)

 

I gave him until the end of this year (Dec 2017) to see if the "bare bones" approach would work. If he kept up his end of the deal, we'd continue it through 11th grade. And then we'd talk over summer to figure out what we're going to do for 12th. (My hope is he's miraculously matured by then.)

By "work" I mean he's passing every subject with a "C" average. Otherwise, as we agreed to when we went over our options, he's left with choices #1 or #2: GED or ENLISTMENT. 

 

Do you know what has suddenly motivated him, to the point he's asked me to add back in a "fluff" subject (logic) for spring semester?? Dating a girl who values education. No lie, LOL. She wants to have a big family and to home school them, so he's thinking if he has a future with her then he needs to be educated enough to make a living wage!! I'm usually a Debbie Downer and shatter people's dreams without realizing it, but this time his delusions are working in my/his favor so I let him keep them.  :o

 

GED is always an option, but it's not one either he or I wanted. But I'd have insisted on it if it came down to a diploma or our relationship. We're going to be mothers long beyond their school years. It's so hard to separate the two roles, but definitely prioritize being his mama. And don't consider yourself a failed teacher ... you didn't fail him, he's his own person with his own ideas. My son is definitely the type who has to learn everything the hard way ... but he does learn, and I have to learn to be okay with it taking him time to do so. My parents let me learn the hard way, too, and those are the lessons I've not forgotten. My dad actually had to remind me how much like this son I was, when we were in the thick of it a few months ago.

 

:grouphug:

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We were lucky enough to have the option of a nearby community college. I "fired" my son from homeschool @ 16, had him take the CHSPE (he had to pay for the 2nd time he took it as he hadn't left himself enough time for both sections of the test) and sat with him at his first counselor meeting at the CC. After that, he got dropped off at the CC by his dad on the way to work and took the bus home (brief tutorial, long walk when he got the wrong bus the second day). We bought the bus pass. He was only late once (his dad left him @ home) and not only survived but thrived at the CC, loved the outside accountability, pursued study groups, met with profs, etc. We asked him to finish his AA to compliment his diploma-by-test. With a few years to consider his course and some independence and mentoring at the CC, he did indeed decide to get his BA and went to the local state U. In both cases he graduated magna cum laude and totally without Mom. And we're friends now, altho' at the beginning of the process we pretty much hated each others' guts. The first summer he was at the CC, he also lived and worked away from home, and that helped, too. He was happy to see me and eat my cooking when he got home. LOL

 

Can you son find summer work that takes him away from home? Our ds worked @ a christian camp in the area; tho' he was close enough to come home he chose not to that first year. I hear national parks also hire people for the summer. Friends and answering to a boss he wanted to please did wonders for ds's temperment that first year.

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My 9th grade son was driving me crazy with doing the absolute minimum... almost nothing. I have signed him up for acellus homeschool (I have also been working out my min graduation requirements). I can have him do 6 classes... I have him in a math, English, Science, Social Studies, and 2 electives.... the 2 electives I selected with his input is a Career Exploration and an Introduction to coding (which is not high school level.) He also needs to do Seminary (for church) and typing outside of the above courses.

 

It has only been a few days but he has done more on the courses than he has on anything else school related so far this year. The courses are broken down into short activities... often 5-10 minutes will complete one of them. My requirements on a normal schoolday is that he has to do something on each class... and he needs to finish the weekly goals by Friday or he will have to do school on Saturday. He is on track to finish the weekly goals on 4 of his classes... ahead on 2 or 3 of them (the coding one he is quite ahead).

 

I'm sure at some point it will be an issue again. I have taken myself quite out of the equation though with the program.... I hate that lose of selecting specifically what he works on... but the authority of the program on what he needs to do should help some. It is better than trying to make him go to public school (something neither of us want)....

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

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Once my son hit the teen years, he became much more willing to do schoolwork for outside teachers than for me. Part of that may have been that we started outsourcing a little bit in middle school and he always gave priority to those outside classes, which makes sense, but part of it is probably just wanting independence from his mom, which I see as normal and healthy. I still have to tell him to do math every day or he will just skip it because that is the one subject he is still answerable to me on. He always gets everything done for his outside classes, though.

 

So, I'd look for local coop classes or online ones. There is a lot out there. I've never heard of acellus, but it sounds like scoutingmom's suggestion might be a good one.

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Seems like a lot of these intentionally difficult teens are boys, but mine's a girl.

 

I sent her to ps halfway 8th grade because she was refusing to work for me.  That worked really well until about 3 months into 9th.  Then she was having panic attacks and wanting to skip school and her grades were starting to tank.  So home she came.

 

In my case I was fortunate to have a local CC to use.  That has saved the situation (so far).  She did make two C's and a B-, mostly from complete refusal to study.  I retrenched to box-checking (those were boxes that needed checking and though the grades are bad, they're good enough to check the boxes).  Along with the box-checking I had her add classes I knew she'd get an A in without much effort.  Not a good life lesson, but trying to keep her GPA afloat.  And after the first C, told her she had to pay for any more C's herself, unless it was a C won with tons of hard work (not a C in which you didn't bother to study for the test even one.little.bit.)

 

Like many others of this type, she is not lacking in grandiose plans, but does not see how working now relates.

 

I am seeing glimmers of hope.  She decided to get a Graphic Design AS, and does well in those classes (GPA help!).  She also wants to then get a 4-year in Business.  I had been telling her that although getting the AS with a minimum of a 3.0 does guarantee she gets in to any state college, it does *not* get her in to any particular program, like the Business school.  She didn't believe me, so went to see the Transfer counselor, who told her that I was right (oh, my!), and she'd need a minimum of a 3.8 to even hope to get into the Business school at the flagship (where she's currently determined to go).  Those early low grades pretty much rule out a 3.8, ever.  But... Transfer counselor told her that if she got a Business AS with a 3.0, she'd be guaranteed get into the Business school at the flagship.  So she's switching to a Business AS.  Which means more harder classes.  :eek:  But she still has to keep that 3.0 with the harder classes.  AND there's one more caveat: she has to get at least a B in Calculus and minimum grades in other Business courses as well.  We're still doing math outside CC.  She got an A- in Derek Owens Honors Precalc, but that doesn't count for this program.  She did NOT pass the Accuplacer to place into Calc at the CC in spite of that lovely grade, because *surprise!* spending an hour or so a WEEK on math, no matter how well you get it at the moment, means you don't retain it long term, unless you're some kind of genius, which she's not.  Just too smart for her own britches.  So now she's working with an expensive tutor to re-learn PreCalc in hopes of either passing the CLEP or finally placing into Calc with the Accuplacer.  I am hoping to have her spend the whole summer on Calc, either at the CC or with a tutor, in order to get that box checked off.

 

Anyway, there is no way in heck I would be able to do anything with her myself, teacher-wise.  She will do the absolute minimum for outside classes and nothing for me.  The former is better.  Her talk with that Transfer Counselor was a godsend, because I could tell her till I was blue that those grades mattered, but I sound like a Charlie Brown parent to her - wawawa.  I am not in any way anticipating that she will suddenly start working hard, but at least maybe in a couple of places where it really matters she'll put in enough effort for a B (and she's going to keep taking one Graphic Design class per semester because she likes them and can get As to boost the GPA).  If you can get your ds to talk to someone else he'd respect about what's really required for his long term goals, that's one thing I'd highly recommend.

Edited by Matryoshka
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I'd honestly send a kid who was uncooperative to school and let them deal.  I'd look into IEP's and the best program available locally for him.  But homeschooling high school is not for the faint of heart and I have always told my kids if they weren't willing to work at it and be motivated and get through stuff without me sitting on top of them all day, we wouldn't do it.  I'd just let go of the teaching and become a cheerleader and look for positive ways to connect with my teen. 

 

ETA - one other thought?  Is he younger for grade.  I know parents who've held back kids at some point during late middle or high school that just aren't quite mature enough to move on.  Even very bright kids who are still working on executive function/motivation. 

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My third daughter was something like this. She wants to be a fashion designer and did very well in weekend classes at FIT so I thought she might actually manage to get in there and that her dream wasn't too far-fetched.

 

In the spring of 2016 she was close to finishing the bare bones high school plan we had agreed on (just fulfilling NY requirements) and then she refused to finish the last two classes, which were also the most difficult for her. She struggled so in math that I was sure she had some kind of disability but she refused to get tested. She has some physical/mental/emotional issues that make everything more difficult for both of us.

 

So I told her that she could either finish, ask for help and finish, or plan to get her HSE - NY has the TASC, which is harder than the GED. She did nothing so when summer came I told her that her window to "graduate" from our homeschool had closed. I had asked  the school district office but they would not give us an extension. So the TASC became the plan. I did help her with registering for a class because NY is very reluctant to allow 17-18yos to take it and prefer to put them in some extended credit recovery program. But since she had no credits for them to accept, I ended up getting her into a TASC prep program at our local CC.  She spent 12 weeks there in the fall and took the TASC in December. She got her results in January but it was too late to apply to FIT then. She spent most of the spring depressed and sullen but she said that she would apply to the CC. And when summer came she started showing signs of life.

 

She applied to the CC.....she dragged her heels on all of the application stuff but I held my tongue and did my part calmly. She got in and registered for 2 classes - English and Statistics - after figuring out what would transfer to FIT. She's doing excellent work in English and is actually working hard at Statistics - she got an 89 on her midterm!! She got a letter from her Dr (with my help - she's getting better at asking for help without too much nastiness/drama) after speaking to Student Services and now she receives some accommodations in class/on tests.

 

AND!! On her own, she got a volunteer job after asking my oldest for advice and help. She got an unpaid internship position at a fashion company with the help of a friend. Between these and her classes, she is out 4-5 days a week and spends way less time moping.

 

She applied to FIT for next fall (2018) and asked for my help in, for her, a very calm and mature way. She is aware that she may not get in and she has mentioned a few things that she may do instead.

 

She registered for classes for the Spring and chose English 2, Art Studio, and Philosophy. She's planning to find a paying job in January when her internship is done.

 

Basically, on the outside she is a fairly productive 19yo who is taking some classes while figuring out what she will do next. At home she is still difficult but so much better since she has taken control of her future.

 

IOW - be hopeful! Her future is much brighter than it seemed a few years ago.

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Almost every area where I had to put my foot down and insist that things get done, my son has later come back and thanked me, admitting that it was really needed and necessary for his college classes (especially in the areas of writing and math). So for any areas where you don't find an option like an online or video class, I guess I'd like to encourage you that there is value in pushing for your son's education. But give both of you some freedom--you don't have to be the source, and not being that source is not failing him at all. 

 

I do think I'd lay the options out for him. Be up front. "I know you don't like doing xyz. Why do you think I'm pushing for you to do this?" (Ask in a very conversational way, not defensive etc...). I'm betting he can't honestly say "I don't know" or anything like that. I'm betting he actually knows but doesn't want to admit why. But in case he really seems not to know, I'd say, "Look, I want what's best for you, and I am also following the laws in our state. Our state says xyz is needed. Here are college/trade programs that you could go to that say xyz is needed. Here's what a GED program would have you study--xyz is needed." 

 

Remember that this is an emotional issue for you, but no matter how emotional your son gets, it's probably not really the same kind of emotional issue for him. We take our homeschooling so much more personally than boys do--and what can feel like ruining your relationship may not at all be that way for him. But--see what you can do to build bridges AND help him to get what's needed. "You can do this with me, or with a GED, public school, or through a CC..." or whatever options are available in your area.

 

GED and other options are NOT "failures" on your part. Look at it this way--you want him to have what he needs educationally. He wants to be a young, independent grown man who is not "under" his mom. This is normal, healthy growth for any young person, but can be intensified with teen boys (I see it as important for girls too but it plays out differently--sometimes in more subtle ways that can surprise you later). He wants to be respected. Laying out his choices in a matter-of-fact way--"here's the next step in life for education, here's how I know it's needed (ie from college, state requirements etc...), and here are your options for fulfilling this. I don't want us to fight. You're my son and I want what's best for you. This is your education--not mine. How would you like to complete it?" 

 

Putting this monkey on his back takes pressure off of you, and helps him see you really are on his side with this. And, showing him that you do respect him as a young adult by presenting options and laying it out dispassionately can help him respect you and do the work you require. If he decides to keep homeschooling, ask him to come up with a plan of action for how things can change. What will he do to get the work done without arguing/fighting about it? What would he like you to do differently? (Maybe he'd like either a daily or a weekly list and then be left to his own devices with a deadline without reminders, for example.) Work on the problem together. Set some benchmark/deadlines to measure how things are going. If he's still not doing work in X weeks or by X date, then he will need to choose GED or CC etc... Lay it out clearly so you both understand.

 

If dad or another adult man is in his life and is someone he respects, I'd encourage a conversation there too. I found dad's help is invaluable in helping these teen boys navigate this stage in life and helping in that "respect mom" area.

 

There may be some "I hate this" responses that you will need to ignore. Just tell yourself it doesn't matter if he hates it as long as he does it. Walk away. Sometimes not engaging in that kind of stuff cools it off, but either way, it's not your responsibility to get him to like it. Don't worry about that part. Sometimes as homeschoolers we think it's our responsibility to get kids to like all their subjects. Not realistic! I did tell my kids, "I don't love everything I have to do. Sometimes I hate taking care of the house but do you want to live in a home where I go around complaining about it all the time? Sometimes we do have to do things we hate, but it blesses people around us if we do it with a good attitude." Don't harp on it, but if there's a good time in conversation where you can honestly talk about that, I think it's worthwhile to say. 

 

I'd try to set up some "off school" times of the day. Just "be mom" during those times. Don't ask about school work. Don't check up on him. If the deadlines are clear, he'll do it or not do it and let him get zeros if need be. Don't nag if it happens. Just give the score and move on. But during those off times, find ways to connect. Go on occasional mother-son dates to get a pop or ice cream or pizza and just talk about things he's interested in (even if those things bore you to tears). Listen. Care about what he's interested in, even if it's video games ad nauseam. Build bridges in your relationship. 

 

If he chooses GED or CC, I'd ask what kind of support he needs. Does he want your help with encouraging him to do work, or does he want hands off? My ds was often able to say that he really didn't want help and he knew he wouldn't be able to accept it well, but he knew he needed it. If your son says he's got it (which mine did a few times), then let him. Let him fail. There are ways to try again. Yes, it has consequences, but it can still be okay. 

 

Hang in there!

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I'd honestly send a kid who was uncooperative to school and let them deal. I'd look into IEP's and the best program available locally for him. But homeschooling high school is not for the faint of heart and I have always told my kids if they weren't willing to work at it and be motivated and get through stuff without me sitting on top of them all day, we wouldn't do it. I'd just let go of the teaching and become a cheerleader and look for positive ways to connect with my teen.

 

ETA - one other thought? Is he younger for grade. I know parents who've held back kids at some point during late middle or high school that just aren't quite mature enough to move on. Even very bright kids who are still working on executive function/motivation.

Except sending a teenager to school that does not want to go can be a horrible experience. I had a teenage step-daughter that basically dropped out of school in grade 6. Maybe effectively before that, but that was before my time. Her attitude was that we couldn't make her do anything.... and she was right. No discipline or punishment had any effect. The truant officers stopped coming... they did not fine us or put us in jail because they saw us physically trying to get her there. Therapy, councelling, etc was tried. The occasional times she went to school (first few days in September usually) she made friends with horrible influences.

 

Now, that was the extreme. A more likely scenario is a kid that goes and does no work there either.

 

The hopeful scenario is the student does work better and does care.

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My 9th grade son was driving me crazy with doing the absolute minimum... almost nothing. I have signed him up for acellus homeschool (I have also been working out my min graduation requirements). I can have him do 6 classes... I have him in a math, English, Science, Social Studies, and 2 electives.... the 2 electives I selected with his input is a Career Exploration and an Introduction to coding (which is not high school level.) He also needs to do Seminary (for church) and typing outside of the above courses.

 

It has only been a few days but he has done more on the courses than he has on anything else school related so far this year. The courses are broken down into short activities... often 5-10 minutes will complete one of them. My requirements on a normal schoolday is that he has to do something on each class... and he needs to finish the weekly goals by Friday or he will have to do school on Saturday. He is on track to finish the weekly goals on 4 of his classes... ahead on 2 or 3 of them (the coding one he is quite ahead).

 

I'm sure at some point it will be an issue again. I have taken myself quite out of the equation though with the program.... I hate that lose of selecting specifically what he works on... but the authority of the program on what he needs to do should help some. It is better than trying to make him go to public school (something neither of us want)....

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

 

I was going to recommend Acellus as well. My daughter started using it this year (8th grade) and it is going remarkably well. I have been taken completely out of the equation with this program. If she gets upset at the amount of work or the difficulty, it is not me that she gets upset with, it is the instructor on the video or the program. For the most part she does her work each day with zero complaints, and she is getting all A's and B's. The fighting between us over schoolwork has dropped to nil this year. The program shows the number of lessons she has to do each day to stay on track and it gives her grades. I do use something else for math, though, since she has always struggled with math and I wanted something that had a tutor available to her whenever she needed help (since she doesn't take instruction from me very well at all).

 

Acellus is not the most rigorous program, but is is definitely sufficient prep for community college (my daughter's goal). The student has to pay attention and even take notes during the lectures; they can't mindlessly click through a lesson and pass it, and they definitely won't be able to pass a unit test if they haven't learned the material in each lesson. 

 

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*somewhat of a vent, but feel free to offer constructive advice*

 

I have an 11th grade student that does not and has never seen the value of academics.  He has struggled academically with a math learning disability- that is why we started homeschooling.  High school has been a "like pulling teeth" experience with him.  We have tried numerous different types of curricula for all subjects.  We have tried to help him see the connection between current choices (regarding education) and future success in life.  He just doesn't feel the need to suppress that "I hate what I'm doing" feeling with his teacher- me- and has his education at the end of his list of priorities.  Outsourcing is not an option- it's either me/at home or public school.  

 

He has maintained a fast food restaurant job for over a year and is an awesome employee.  He also has some exceptional goals for his future like "something in music," a professional video game player, or a tower climber- all while doing nothing for any of those goals. 

 

I feel I am left with 2 choices at this point-

 

either putting my foot down, connecting his effort in education to things he is directly more interested in, and ruining our relationship (which is important to me)- this is what we have been doing

 

or

 

leaving him to his own devices, letting him fail, lose credits, maybe a GED instead of a high school diploma, leaving me to feel as I have failed as his teacher, and maybe repairing some damage to our relationship.  

 

I'm not so worried about the outcome.  He has to learn there are consequences to actions, but I want what am supposed to do.  Fail as a teacher or mother- I feel like that is the choice I am left with.  Thanks for listening.  

 

It sounds like you've given yourself only two options, both quite bad.  Especially since however much you do the first you may still not succeed in getting him to learn well, and with the second, your relationship may still be hurt.

 

Can you generate more possible options? Perhaps with input from your son?

 

Is he old enough to be done with school and just focus on work and being an employee at which he is awesome?  Or young enough for a gap year in which he has a work focus while you both figure out what comes next? Could he get a few credits for culinary arts and/or job training and maybe PE and community service credits, and maybe do something related to music for a fine arts credit related to his possible music goals,  rather than academic subjects this year?  Could he job shadow people doing things he is interested in and learn what those things take?

 

 

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