Aging hoarder

[creekland]

Assume this is hypothetical or use your best guess if you prefer as I need some answers on what in the world I can do... I'm stuck.

 

An aging family member of mine is a Hoarder.  His place could easily be featured on any of the TV shows by that name.  He also has other mental challenges/disorders making him 100% distrustful of others and convinced he's the only one who is right - anyone else, esp gov't folks, esp local, are wrong.  Locally he's pretty well known, and not in a positive light.  His threats to sue anyone/everyone have even doctors not wanting to care for him (so it seems at this point).

 

However, he's not a danger to himself or others - he's harmless - just annoying - so to date, really, nothing can be done.  He lives alone with his 8 cats in his mess.  Law enforcement know him well.  Neighbors know.  Church members know.  Pretty much everyone knows as it's a very rural area.  He says he wants to clean it up and change life, but any suggestions (from anyone) fall on deaf ears.  Any attempt to clean comes with the result of being blamed for stealing his things and/or legal papers filed against that person.  Even when he says he wants to give things away, if one accepts, he'll end up saying "I'm not ready to part with that yet."

 

The problem?  He's starting to fall... twice in the past week.  He already rambles on and on - has for years (literally) with the same stories, but he can still care for himself, so it's supposedly ok legally.  With the falls, my caution flag has gone up that we might not be able to ignore the oncoming train wreck much longer.

 

What in the world does one do in this situation?  (The situation being he can't care for himself if he's falling, but has enough mental ability to not willingly accept any alternative and no friend or family is willing to give up their lives to attempt to live with him.  That latter part is a given. Others have tried - and failed.)  We can't financially support him living elsewhere and he has next to no savings himself, plus, has no interest in going anywhere.  

Edited November 22, 2017 by creekland

[Guest]

Unfortunately, this might be time to call Adult Protective Services. Everyone has more than done their due diligence, and especially if mental challenges are inhibiting his ability to think clearly, perhaps APS can intervene. I think the only other option is to walk away, which is a nearly impossible task. What a terrible situation for all.  :grouphug:

[creekland]

Unfortunately, this might be time to call Adult Protective Services. Everyone has more than done their due diligence, and especially if mental challenges are inhibiting his ability to think clearly, perhaps APS can intervene. I think the only other option is to walk away, which is a nearly impossible task. What a terrible situation for all.  :grouphug:

 

Maybe after the holidays I can call and ask if they have suggestions.  The area is pretty rural so I'm not even sure how far away the nearest agency would be.  I know so far others have tried to have things done, but the best they could do is get judgments against the trash which put liens on his property - meaning he has even less money (probably none) if he were to try to sell.  This is fine by me when it comes to an inheritance, but not at all good if trying to change the current situation.

 

My sibling and I have been listening politely and have made attempts to help (her more than me TBH), but it just goes nowhere, so we've both walked away (except by phone and the occasional meeting to catch up over dinner out - NOT at his place - I gag when I see his place as we're picking him up or dropping him off).  I've just been texting with her.  We have no idea what to do.  She keeps trying to reason with him and gets frustrated.  I've given up on that approach (though still make suggestions over the phone knowing they will go nowhere).

 

If his doctor won't see him regarding the falls, and hasn't even returned a phone call - plus he won't go to the ER even when a neighbor called the ambulance...  (I totally "get" doctors wanting to stay as little involved as possible.  Who wants a lawsuit to deal with when things don't go the way he likes?  Of course, he's threatening to have that happen anyway, but locally, the law firm ignores him - as do elected officials.)

 

He can't be the only one like this.  Every village has their... fill in the blank with whatever word one likes.  What happens to them as they age and can't actually keep things going in their own "special" way anymore, but haven't lost their mind to get a court ordered anything?

[kiwik]

It is a mental illness so you can't really just help except in everyday ways. I work for someone who has had a lot to do with hoarders and apparently being killed directly or indirectly by your hoard is not uncommon. He will need professional help to make any minimal change.

Edited November 23, 2017 by kiwik

[creekland]

It is a mental illness so you can't really just help except in everyday ways. I work for someone who has had a lot to do with hoarders and apparently being killed directly or indirectly by your hoard is not uncommon. He will need professional help to make any minimal change.

 

And that just isn't going to happen.  No money for it.  Probably no one up here who does it.

 

I guess the train is going to wreck sometime in the near future, but even when it does, I still have no idea what to do.  If he were to pass away, I could handle that (nuts and bolts handling of it).  I have no idea what in the world to do when/if he can't walk or needs to be bedridden or similar.  There's him and there's his cats and then there's his stuff that he will accuse someone of stealing if it gets touched and he can't find it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think you start with sanitation.  Is there cat poop in the house?  Other filth?  A persistent smell of cat pee in the rugs or towels?  If so, then that's a health issue, and I think that someone needs to intervene, and help him set up systems to deal with that, and check in to make sure that he is following through.  If he isn't, that's when you starting thinking about contacting the social workers; but he has to let them in for them to make observations, and if he refuses, they can't do anything.  Still, them knocking on his door might be just the thing to give this some priority.

 

If not, you start with hazards.  Could he get out if there were a fire?  If he is falling, is it because he is slipping on stuff or stepping over things?  If so, then you *just* help him clear pathways.  You don't show judgement, but you help him to be safe.  

 

Then you set up a system for things he wants to unload.  One box for donations, one for throw aways.  And you pick up that stuff for him from time to time.  The next time he says he wants to go through things, you suggest that he set a timer for 15 minutes, and just get rid of stuff for that long, and then take a rest.  Those small increments can make this less overwhelming.

 

Beyond that, I think there isn't much you can do yet except take him out occasionally, which it sounds like you're already doing.

[Carol in Cal.]

PS  Also, if he has any guns, go get them out.

[AimeeM]

Having somewhat recently been in a similar situation myself, with FIL, I would suggest you really think long and hard before calling any equivalent of social services. While doing so may ease your anxiety, my FIL's social worker (not affiliated with Adult Protective -- she was his worker through hospice) gently reminded us that this was about his quality of life, at his stage in life, not necessarily about keeping him alive and physically well for as long as possible. 

 

FIL's personal quality of life would have declined had he been moved. As in, psychologically. He would have been depressed and absolutely miserable -- and that is no way to live the last years of his life. It's true that he would have lived longer than he did had he been moved, and he would have lived a cleaner and more sanitary life for that time, but when I really sat back and looked at the situation, I realized that merely keeping his body alive and unharmed wasn't the goal I wanted to work toward for him. If the situation had involved any other people (a spouse or similar) we would have had to do things differently -- but I can say that while he lived in conditions certainly less than sanitary, and bordering on what I consider disgusting, his life essentially ended in the place he loved and had always loved, in the place that held his good memories. The day he fell and we had to move him to the hospital signaled the end for him and he didn't really remember anything that happened after, so as far as he knew, he got to spend the last of his days where he wanted. And I don't regret it at all. I thought I would. Some on this board may remember how I struggled with it -- but I'm very glad we didn't call in Protective Services and I'm very glad we bent to his wishes, as opposed to our own.

Edited November 23, 2017 by AimeeM

[hjffkj]

No advice just virtual hugs. I fear if my dad died before my mom she will turn into a hoarder. She has the tendency but dad and us kids keep it in check, which she is grateful for currently. If he were to die I think she'd stop letting us get rid of things when it gets to be too much.

[barnwife]

A junky house, a cat house, and not taking care of oneself don't mean much to "the county" if somebody is with it enough to fight them. 

 

Carols suggestion to help physically get stuff out of the house is good.  I've known people who were so cheap that paying for garbage service was the best incentive to clean up, don't want to waste space in the dumpster you've already paid for.  If he's not that motivated, then finding someone local who can haul a can as often as he can fill it might help.  Also, a way to check in every day so if he dies it's not after being stuck there for days. 

 

I wouldn't touch the guns, you have no idea you'll get them all, and it would do the most to confirm his suspicions. Now if he was motivated by money, you could suggest selling his guns for him.  Or "selling" his excess junk for him, even if it meant personally making a donation to him and throwing everything out. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by barnwife

[kiana]

And that just isn't going to happen.  No money for it.  Probably no one up here who does it.

 

I guess the train is going to wreck sometime in the near future, but even when it does, I still have no idea what to do.  If he were to pass away, I could handle that (nuts and bolts handling of it).  I have no idea what in the world to do when/if he can't walk or needs to be bedridden or similar.  There's him and there's his cats and then there's his stuff that he will accuse someone of stealing if it gets touched and he can't find it.

 

If he can't walk/feed himself/go to the bathroom, then is the time that you'd end up needing to involve adult protective services. 

 

Until then, there really isn't that much you can do. Carol's got some good suggestions for trying to get started so I won't repeat them. But if they don't work, again, not much. 

 

I'm in a similar situation with a relative ... basically, I have managed to get her to let me clean up a few things, but mostly I'm just waiting for the train wreck, because I know it'll be me who has to clean up after it. 

 

But until then, she is happier (or at least less unhappy) and more able than she would be in a clean assisted living apartment with her stuff gone. Even if it is somewhat squalid. 

[kiwik]

OK. Barring professional help. The main causes of injury/death seem to be stacks of hoarded junk falling on people or not being able to see/find a elderly person who has had a fall or stoke/heart attack etc. Maybe just try an make things safer. He won't be better off if forced to give up his stuff - just miserable.

[Carrie12345]

PS  Also, if he has any guns, go get them out.

 

This would be my #1 priority.  I'm reluctant to share a local, tragic story.  Can I just say that we had a local, tragic story involving an elderly hoarder and guns?

 

Personally, we do have aging, hoarding relatives. Literally nothing we've done has been helpful.  It's incredibly frustrating.

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[HomeAgain]

From what I understand, hoarding is often a symptom of a form of ptsd - usually a significant loss or abuse in the past has made the person hold on to inanimate objects as a security replacement.

 

I don't know what I would do in that situation, but getting a person to a therapist would be my initial goal.

[creekland]

I think you start with sanitation.  Is there cat poop in the house?  Other filth?  A persistent smell of cat pee in the rugs or towels?  If so, then that's a health issue, and I think that someone needs to intervene, and help him set up systems to deal with that, and check in to make sure that he is following through.  If he isn't, that's when you starting thinking about contacting the social workers; but he has to let them in for them to make observations, and if he refuses, they can't do anything.  Still, them knocking on his door might be just the thing to give this some priority.

 

If not, you start with hazards.  Could he get out if there were a fire?  If he is falling, is it because he is slipping on stuff or stepping over things?  If so, then you *just* help him clear pathways.  You don't show judgement, but you help him to be safe.  

 

Then you set up a system for things he wants to unload.  One box for donations, one for throw aways.  And you pick up that stuff for him from time to time.  The next time he says he wants to go through things, you suggest that he set a timer for 15 minutes, and just get rid of stuff for that long, and then take a rest.  Those small increments can make this less overwhelming.

 

Beyond that, I think there isn't much you can do yet except take him out occasionally, which it sounds like you're already doing.

 

Yes to all the cat stuff and other filth.  A huge yes.

 

No he would not be able to get out easily in case of a fire.  Not only are the paths single lane (or less) and tricky, he can't walk well due to back issues.  I'm not sure what's been causing his tripping.

 

He will not get rid of things that aren't obvious garbage - and what's obvious to us is not necessarily obvious to him because many things can be repaired and old things might be collector's items that someone will appreciate someday.

 

He will not let anyone into his house - esp anyone official.  It's not him who has problems.  It's the rest of the world and they are out to get him.  Even I don't get to go beyond the first trashed room - except once and then that extra only included two more rooms.  I have no idea where he sleeps and I can only imagine what his kitchen looks like.  He will not let us in there - not even when returning him home from grocery shopping.  He has us leave his items in the pathway in the first room and tells us he'll take them from there - even with his issues walking - even when the items are larger or heavier.  Neither hubby nor I can stand his house.  

 

My sibling gets farther and tries to help clean up when she can, but... she's inherited the same Hoarder genetics, so "clean" is likely a different definition.  He wants her to come live with him (again), but he's impossible to live with.  She finally moved away a few years back and started a life for herself.  I moved away back when I left for college.  Neither of us live close by.  We only see him on return visits home.  (For me, that's 8 hours away, but since I've been coming to the area for my mom's health issues, I try to carve out a few hours to take him out too.)

 

PS  Also, if he has any guns, go get them out.

 

I think his guns have been disabled by a different relative who has been accused of breaking them (and stealing multiple other things).  FWIW that relative had law enforcement's blessing.

 

Having somewhat recently been in a similar situation myself, with FIL, I would suggest you really think long and hard before calling any equivalent of social services. While doing so may ease your anxiety, my FIL's social worker (not affiliated with Adult Protective -- she was his worker through hospice) gently reminded us that this was about his quality of life, at his stage in life, not necessarily about keeping him alive and physically well for as long as possible. 

 

FIL's personal quality of life would have declined had he been moved. As in, psychologically. He would have been depressed and absolutely miserable -- and that is no way to live the last years of his life. It's true that he would have lived longer than he did had he been moved, and he would have lived a cleaner and more sanitary life for that time, but when I really sat back and looked at the situation, I realized that merely keeping his body alive and unharmed wasn't the goal I wanted to work toward for him. If the situation had involved any other people (a spouse or similar) we would have had to do things differently -- but I can say that while he lived in conditions certainly less than sanitary, and bordering on what I consider disgusting, his life essentially ended in the place he loved and had always loved, in the place that held his good memories. The day he fell and we had to move him to the hospital signaled the end for him and he didn't really remember anything that happened after, so as far as he knew, he got to spend the last of his days where he wanted. And I don't regret it at all. I thought I would. Some on this board may remember how I struggled with it -- but I'm very glad we didn't call in Protective Services and I'm very glad we bent to his wishes, as opposed to our own.

 

We have essentially let him just live his life.  There's nothing else we could do TBH.  I'm quite ok with that in general, but now if he's falling - I don't know.  That just puts a red flag up that the train could be heading off the tracks.  No one is nearby who checks on him.  I guess I was wondering if there was something else I could do - or what to do if I get a call from someone else telling me I had to do something, then what is that "something?"

 

Hubby and I talked about it on our journey up here this time and came up with no plausible answers.  I decided to ask the greater wisdom on here to see if we overlooked anything.  It could be that there are none. (sigh)

 

A junky house, a cat house, and not taking care of oneself don't mean much to "the county" if somebody is with it enough to fight them. 

 

Carols suggestion to help physically get stuff out of the house is good.  I've known people who were so cheap that paying for garbage service was the best incentive to clean up, don't want to waste space in the dumpster you've already paid for.  If he's not that motivated, then finding someone local who can haul a can as often as he can fill it might help.  Also, a way to check in every day so if he dies it's not after being stuck there for days. 

 

I wouldn't touch the guns, you have no idea you'll get them all, and it would do the most to confirm his suspicions. Now if he was motivated by money, you could suggest selling his guns for him.  Or "selling" his excess junk for him, even if it meant personally making a donation to him and throwing everything out. 

 

He might be motivated by selling things - he has sold a few things before, but we don't have nearly enough in our budget to "buy" much from him - esp at prices he feels things are worth.

 

I can't think of anyone who would be willing to check in on him daily.  He really turns everyone off by his body odor, retelling of stories, the house, and similar.  Some who have been motivated by money before (he paid some help for various things - not cleaning - but other things) end up saying it's not worth it and moving on.  The best he has now is getting a taxi service when he wants to go places since he doesn't drive (but absolutely won't sell his old, broken down truck - even when someone offered to buy it).  Interestingly enough, that place has raised their rates quite a bit... esp for longer trips.

 

Oh well.  Thanks for listening anyway.  I appreciate everyone's thoughts.  I wish there weren't so many like him out there though.  I feel for them.  Folks say he's happy as he is.  No he isn't. I wouldn't use the word happy to describe him for quite some time - maybe something momentary, but it doesn't last long.  He's angry and he's fearful, then he's in pain from his health issues.  I admit I don't think changes will help though - other than maybe meds of some sort - but I can't see that happening.  Even with his health issues, when he gets something he tells us is working, he stops it.  It seems to be like his brain wants him to be miserable.

[mom@shiloh]

No advice, just hugs.  That sounds like a tough situation with no easy answers.

[Laura Corin]

My mother was a low-level hoarder, in that her house got fuller and fuller of 'useful' things - magazines back to 1986 that might have good tips in them, etc.  She did keep part of the kitchen clean (an ever-smaller square of work space) and the toilet functioned.  Luckily, she doesn't like pets.

 

She resisted all attempts to help as 'other people interfering' until she was hospitalised repeatedly over a three-month period and had time to think.  The time in hospital also made her more passive and reduced her confidence that she actually could cope on her own.  She moved to be near me and ended up living with us.  When my brother cleared the house for sale, it was clear that she hadn't been able to cope with normal life (washing, changing sheets) for months, perhaps years.

 

If she had wanted to move back home, I don't think I would have opposed it.  She was lucid and rational.  If she wanted to live like that (even though she was a proven danger to herself) I would have accepted her decision.  I would have tried to persuade her to see a doctor in case depression (for example) was contributing.

 

As it was, her house was attached to another one, the next door occupant being in his 80s, and there was a definite fire risk to him (slight gas leak that she couldn't smell; forgetting the stove, etc).  That made the situation immoral.

 

Best of luck.  These things are very hard.

[Scarlett]

I do think there has to be a line somewhere where his rights are not as important as his safety which of course can impact others safety.

 

I find it ironic that in some parts of the country it is so easy to have competent adults taken over by the courts and yet someone with a clear mental illness living in squalor can go on like indefinitely because there is no recourse even for loving family members like Creekland.

[kiana]

I find it ironic that in some parts of the country it is so easy to have competent adults taken over by the courts and yet someone with a clear mental illness living in squalor can go on like indefinitely because there is no recourse even for loving family members like Creekland.

 

Yeah.

 

And honestly, if we err I'd rather err on the side of less interference. Even though it's so frustrating to watch. 

 

There are always going to be those grey line cases ... 

[maize]

Could a storage shed be put in the yard (if there is a yard?) and some of the stuff be moved out there? Or you could offer to move some stuff to the attic if there is one?

 

I'm thinking it could maybe get some stuff out of sight out of mind and allow some of it to be quietly disappeared, while providing an opportunity for trash to be thrown out and walking space to be cleared in the house. I know most horders will just fill the space back up but it sounds like he may not have the funds or opportunity to do much purchasing.

Edited November 23, 2017 by maize

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

My only advice is to keep going by his place, even just briefly to pick him up to go somewhere.

My uncles place went from hoarders to so bad he was living in his car and we didn’t know because everyone started meeting him places instead of running by the house. We found out when it was too late to salvage anything.

[MedicMom]

When we enter a house that is clearly filthy and a hoarder house(I have been in hoarder houses that were actually clean; but many more than have had animal urine and feces strewn about, moldy food, etc) we call code enforcement. Law enforcement can only do a mental health hold and adult protective can’t enter if the adult refuses, but code enforcement will show up and declare the place uninhabitable and unsafe. And they can enter without permission, at least here.

 

It usually gets the ball rolling, at least. It’s a much more common problem than people realize.

[AimeeM]

I would let him know that he has two choices (we did similar with FIL):

 

1. You will call him daily. If he doesn't answer, you will call the police for a well check. 

or

2. He can agree to hire a local kid, for $5 or $10 a day, to come check on him every day -- just to make sure he hasn't fallen

[brehon]

When we enter a house that is clearly filthy and a hoarder house(I have been in hoarder houses that were actually clean; but many more than have had animal urine and feces strewn about, moldy food, etc) we call code enforcement. Law enforcement can only do a mental health hold and adult protective can’t enter if the adult refuses, but code enforcement will show up and declare the place uninhabitable and unsafe. And they can enter without permission, at least here.

 

It usually gets the ball rolling, at least. It’s a much more common problem than people realize.

We do the same thing.

[Nan in Mass]

Think of it like as logic problem.  Four things have to be true before you can step in and change things for him:

 

You have to know he himself (not you or anyone else) is miserable with his current life.

AND

You have to know he himself (not you or anyone else) truly will be happier with a change.

AND

You have to know he himself is ready and willing to make the change now.

AND

You have to know that the new living situation is a sure thing.

 

For many people, the last piece of their lives is going to be miserable unless you drug them into insensibility.  If you want to go that route, then you can try to get them certified incompetent (probably mangling the legal language here), but first, I would straight out ask him if he WANTS to go that route.  He might.  Lots of people do.  If he does, that might make it easier.

 

If you don't want to go that route, then I think you are stuck figuring out those four things.  The middle two may be hard to determine.  If you don't know for sure, then it counts as a negative.

 

If you don't know all four of those things for sure, then I think you have to resign yourself to the idea that the misery is unavoidable and that prolonging his life by moving him to a safer situation might not actually be a good idea.

 

Lots of hugs.  Lots and lots of hugs.

 

Nan

 

 

 

[creekland]

I do think there has to be a line somewhere where his rights are not as important as his safety which of course can impact others safety.

 

I find it ironic that in some parts of the country it is so easy to have competent adults taken over by the courts and yet someone with a clear mental illness living in squalor can go on like indefinitely because there is no recourse even for loving family members like Creekland.

 

I know between this and my MIL with severe dementia, my eyes have been opened at how little can be done - even when there seems to be a drastic need (due to falls or whatever).

 

In this guy's case, he can still carry a conversation mostly, although his is on the weird side and will devolve to his "one will hear these things all the time" stories.  He can "do" everyday life, so that's not as much the problem.  He's eccentric, but not a danger to others.  The danger to himself is due to aging and the condition of his place - then health issues, but that's up to him to decide just as it is for all of us.

 

Could a storage shed be put in the yard (if there is a yard?) and some of the stuff be moved out there? Or you could offer to move some stuff to the attic if there is one?

 

I'm thinking it could maybe get some stuff out of sight out of mind and allow some of it to be quietly disappeared, while providing an opportunity for trash to be thrown out and walking space to be cleared in the house. I know most horders will just fill the space back up but it sounds like he may not have the funds or opportunity to do much purchasing.

 

There are already two properties he owns with houses and two large garages + yards.  Everything is pretty darn full.  Attics too.  Basements too.

 

My only advice is to keep going by his place, even just briefly to pick him up to go somewhere.

My uncles place went from hoarders to so bad he was living in his car and we didn’t know because everyone started meeting him places instead of running by the house. We found out when it was too late to salvage anything.

 

We do not live close enough to do this.  He lives 8 hours away (one way).  I am only close when I'm visiting my mom - and she will never go visit him, nor does she care about him.  He drove her off about 40 years ago.

 

He usually calls my sibling daily.  This morning the call was to let her know he was "stuck" upstairs (sigh).  We all wondered if a canyon had collapsed in his house, but talking with him later, no, he was just in pain and found it difficult to move.  He is, as usual, mad at his doctors for not seeing him (now) or returning his phone calls.  He wants to know what he should do.  Whatever I suggest won't actually matter.

 

I don't know how much of that (his getting "stuck") is reality or how much is a made up story to get attention TBH.  He does make things up.  He told people I was really bad health-wise and would be dead by this Christmas... those people are also my friends (albeit from a few years back) so called me wanting to know more info.  I was rather livid and confronted him about it.  No apologies from him.  No denials either.  He was just hoping to get sympathy and attention (sigh).

 

When we enter a house that is clearly filthy and a hoarder house(I have been in hoarder houses that were actually clean; but many more than have had animal urine and feces strewn about, moldy food, etc) we call code enforcement. Law enforcement can only do a mental health hold and adult protective can’t enter if the adult refuses, but code enforcement will show up and declare the place uninhabitable and unsafe. And they can enter without permission, at least here.

 

It usually gets the ball rolling, at least. It’s a much more common problem than people realize.

 

I know the rest of "the village" has tried to get something done - and failed - other than the lien on his properties due to the outdoor garbage violating code.  My guess is his quickness to jump to lawsuits.  He's won some and lost some.  I think this is a case the local entities aren't sure they'd win, so they're like the rest of us and ignoring it.

 

But now he's falling - definitely falling - but real or for sympathy?

 

If it's all real... that's when I have no idea what can be done.  Does he just die - alone - if no one finds out?  If we do find out and he still doesn't want to change anything, then what?

 

I would let him know that he has two choices (we did similar with FIL):

 

1. You will call him daily. If he doesn't answer, you will call the police for a well check. 

or

2. He can agree to hire a local kid, for $5 or $10 a day, to come check on him every day -- just to make sure he hasn't fallen

 

No kid would be interested - or trustworthy enough (in his eyes).  I'm pretty sure the police would take their time at this point too.  They already do when he calls for the variety of things he calls about (either people on his property, parking out front counts, or as the village tattletale should anyone jaywalk or not park between the lines.  He'll have pictures.

 

Think of it like as logic problem.  Four things have to be true before you can step in and change things for him:

 

You have to know he himself (not you or anyone else) is miserable with his current life.

AND

You have to know he himself (not you or anyone else) truly will be happier with a change.

AND

You have to know he himself is ready and willing to make the change now.

AND

You have to know that the new living situation is a sure thing.

 

For many people, the last piece of their lives is going to be miserable unless you drug them into insensibility.  If you want to go that route, then you can try to get them certified incompetent (probably mangling the legal language here), but first, I would straight out ask him if he WANTS to go that route.  He might.  Lots of people do.  If he does, that might make it easier.

 

If you don't want to go that route, then I think you are stuck figuring out those four things.  The middle two may be hard to determine.  If you don't know for sure, then it counts as a negative.

 

If you don't know all four of those things for sure, then I think you have to resign yourself to the idea that the misery is unavoidable and that prolonging his life by moving him to a safer situation might not actually be a good idea.

 

Lots of hugs.  Lots and lots of hugs.

 

Nan

 

But none of those will be true.  They aren't already, so everyone has left him as he is - eccentric and annoying, but not a danger, so no major problem.  What happens when he can no longer care for himself, but is still of the same mind?  I don't mean stay showered and look presentable. That already doesn't happen. I mean able to stay on his feet or walk on his paths to get places in his house - like the kitchen and bathroom.

[creekland]

Is he on the local list for low income senior housing?  

 

He has no interest in moving.  Sometimes he talks about wanting to, but when I make any sort of real suggestion in that direction, no, he's not ready for that yet and doesn't think he ever will be.  He also will NOT sell either of his properties (both full size houses even though he's only one person), because then those who put liens on them will get the money.  In his world, that will only happen "Over My Dead Body!"  That will, of course, be when it happens.

[Shellydon]

BTDT, here is what we did.  We checked frequently as possible and generally left her alone until she needed to be hospitalized for a fall.  When she was hospitalized, we had her moved to a Medicare A rehab unit within a nursing home.  Once she finished rehab, we had her committed to the regular nursing home under Medicaid funding.  She hated it, but could not live alone.  She would have died of dehydration within a week of being home alone.  She lived about a year. When she died, we cleaned her house out using a dumpster.  For pets, we lined up a foster situation for them a few months in advance knowing that they'd need care.  That actually helped because she was much less agitated knowing her pets were cared for. 

[creekland]

BTDT, here is what we did.  We checked frequently as possible and generally left her alone until she needed to be hospitalized for a fall.  When she was hospitalized, we had her moved to a Medicare A rehab unit within a nursing home.  Once she finished rehab, we had her committed to the regular nursing home under Medicaid funding.  She hated it, but could not live alone.  She would have died of dehydration within a week of being home alone.  She lived about a year. When she died, we cleaned her house out using a dumpster.  For pets, we lined up a foster situation for them a few months in advance knowing that they'd need care.  That actually helped because she was much less agitated knowing her pets were cared for. 

 

I'm thinking this is what's going to happen here too.  When he can't get up from a fall... that may have to be the train derailing in its crash.  Wherever it lands, it lands.

 

I'm so tempted to clean up the places with an accidental lit match.  (sigh)

 

IRL, I may just tell those with the liens, "Congratulations, you win!  Here are the keys.  You get everything inside (and outside)."

 

I'm pretty sure the first isn't legal.  Not so sure about the second.

 

The cats aren't particularly tame.  I've only actually seen 3 or 4 of them.  My sibling has seen more.  Only the youngest two were able to be caught (by me).

[Granny_Weatherwax]

((Creekland))

[Carrie12345]

He has no interest in moving.  Sometimes he talks about wanting to, but when I make any sort of real suggestion in that direction, no, he's not ready for that yet and doesn't think he ever will be.  He also will NOT sell either of his properties (both full size houses even though he's only one person), because then those who put liens on them will get the money.  In his world, that will only happen "Over My Dead Body!"  That will, of course, be when it happens.

 

This is what freaks me out.  The logical part of me completely gets that this is the kind of thing that people say, but the part of me that internalizes extreme, rare incidents shivers reflexively. 

[creekland]

Is he diabetic?  We found our elder is rational and doesn't tell stories, become irate or hoard as much etc when in control.  It took the aftermath of the falls to get the doctor enough monitoring time to establish control.

 

If not totally diabetic, he certainly is somewhere on the range.  He reminds us all the time to not eat sugary things due to it while at the same time buying nothing but sugary things (two full sized bakery made coconut pies, two large bags of oversized marshmallows, frosted frozen toaster pastries of some sort, etc, etc) for himself (single man) to eat.  He will consume large quantities of these, then almost pass out in a nap.  I've often wondered if he does it on purpose to sleep.  I've asked him if he should eat sugar and he tells me it's fine.  He eats raw garlic daily and that negates anything bad in what he eats.  (I'm sure it also helps with his wonderful body and breath odor.)

 

When we go out to a favorite buffet of his to eat, he'll eat off the buffet - then want dessert.  He'll go back for dessert 4 times, getting 2-4 desserts each time.  A couple of those are always pudding.  The pudding containers have to come home with him.  "What do you use those for?  They don't even have tops for them."  "I don't know right now, but they are the right size to be useful for something."  (sigh)

 

I wish there were a magic pill he would take or some reasoning that would work.

 

This is what freaks me out.  The logical part of me completely gets that this is the kind of thing that people say, but the part of me that internalizes extreme, rare incidents shivers reflexively. 

 

I've point blank mentioned it to him that this is what will happen.  He tells us he expects we'll fight it and bring up a large lawsuit against the entities with the liens holding them responsible for his death (due to the stress it caused him).  My sibling might take that route.  I want no part of it.

 

I want to walk away - and did when I went far away to college eons ago.  But a big part of me can not and will not just cut all ties - at least - until he passes away.  I'm of the firm belief that he isn't this way by choice (seriously, who would choose it?), but all part of his mental illnesses and he's still a human being.  I let him live as he chooses while we watch from afar and have some contact via phone and when we're in the area.  I just wonder how that will need to change if/when he can't care for himself and that time seems to be approaching.  I have no idea.  That's why I wondered how others have handled it and appreciate those who have shared as it really does help guide my thoughts.  I know he's not the only one out there and our Hive experience is very deep and broad.  With my MIL, thoughts led to something far better happening.  Here... it just seems like I need to wait and clean up afterward.

[Reefgazer]

What you can do depends on the laws in his state of residence; I found that out when my dad needed care. NYS made it impossible to do anything without the elder's consent, unless they were a danger to others or you took them to court. In NYS, an elder care attorney told us they had the right to live as they pleased, their health and welfare was not my business. So, first you need to find out the laws in the state of his residence.

 

Additional edit: Based on what you wrote in this thread I have BTDT nearly exactly as you described. The sudden tripping, the paranoia, the refusal of help, of living in poor conditions....all signs of dementia. But again, if your state has laws that are keeping you from helping a family member as you see fit, there really isn't much to do other than wait until they are so out of it that they will eventually come along with you docilely or passively agree to whatever you suggest. Voice of experience: That might take a while.

Edited November 24, 2017 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

Someone can't just go steal his guns; I'm pretty sure that's a felony in most states. At the very least you would have to take him to court and prove he's mentally incompetent to keep the guns and then have the authorities remove them.

PS Also, if he has any guns, go get them out.

[Seasider]

Creekland, I wish I had a magic answer for you, but I don't. I think others have shared some good practical advice.

 

Just want to say I understand how difficult it is to watch someone you are close to, and feel somewhat responsible for, make awful life choices that will not play out well, yet they have the right to make exactly those choices. And as you say, mental illnesses (or even the effects of physical ones) play a role in this poor decision making. It seems so sadly unjust. And frustrating when your own well-intentioned hands are tied.

 

Hoping that you will be surprised by a good option.

[Reefgazer]

This was the only option, in my experience, that was legally do-able in NYS. But in the county in NY where we were, the elder has to allow admittance into the home, and it sounds like he won't. That's why it didn't work in my experience; because the elder knew dang well that county code enforcement would blow the lid off that popsicle stand, so no one was allowed inside - not even EMT. How does code enforcement gain access to someone's home without cause/warrant where you live (when you would need access to the interior in order to justify gaining access because the situation was not visible from outside, for example)?

When we enter a house that is clearly filthy and a hoarder house(I have been in hoarder houses that were actually clean; but many more than have had animal urine and feces strewn about, moldy food, etc) we call code enforcement. Law enforcement can only do a mental health hold and adult protective can’t enter if the adult refuses, but code enforcement will show up and declare the place uninhabitable and unsafe. And they can enter without permission, at least here.

 

It usually gets the ball rolling, at least. It’s a much more common problem than people realize.

Edited November 24, 2017 by reefgazer

[MedicMom]

This was the only option, in my experience, that was legally do-able in NYS. But in the county in NY where we were, the elder has to allow admittance into the home, and it sounds like he won't. That's why it didn't work in my experience; because the elder knew dang well that county code enforcement would blow the lid off that popsicle stand, so no one was allowed inside - not even EMT. How does code enforcement gain access to someone's home without cause/warrant where you live (when you would need access to the interior in order to justify gaining access because the situation was not visible from outside, for example)?

Because at this point, the fire department and/or paramedic/EMT is already in the home. Most often it happens when someone has fallen and can’t get up, or has fallen and is injured. A common scenario is that someone has fallen in the home and has been found after several days. The last one I was at had newspapers since the 1970s and decades of junk mail stacked. There were dog feces all over the place. The ceiling in the bathroom had collapsed, and we were fairly certain that there was no edible food in the house. We called code, who can enter, and who condemned the place as uninhabitable. At that point the patient agreed to go to the hospital, and was subsequently placed in a nursing home.(she needed one)

 

I personally would call the local code enforcement for ideas. I know they are allowed to enter a house even after being refused under certain circumstances. It may vary from county to county even within the same state.

[creekland]

What you can do depends on the laws in his state of residence; I found that out when my dad needed care. NYS made it impossible to do anything without the elder's consent, unless they were a danger to others or you took them to court. In NYS, an elder care attorney told us they had the right to live as they pleased, their health and welfare was not my business. So, first you need to find out the laws in the state of his residence.

 

Additional edit: Based on what you wrote in this thread I have BTDT nearly exactly as you described. The sudden tripping, the paranoia, the refusal of help, of living in poor conditions....all signs of dementia. But again, if your state has laws that are keeping you from helping a family member as you see fit, there really isn't much to do other than wait until they are so out of it that they will eventually come along with you docilely or passively agree to whatever you suggest. Voice of experience: That might take a while.

 

It's NY, and it seems exactly as you've stated.  It might be dementia, but it's not Alzheimer's like MIL has.  The way his brain works is just... strange.  Hers was/is classic Alzheimers.

[Reefgazer]

Oh, I see, you already had access to the home with cause for entry. I misunderstood and thought code was able to gain access without anyone seeing the interior.

 

Because at this point, the fire department and/or paramedic/EMT is already in the home. Most often it happens when someone has fallen and can’t get up, or has fallen and is injured. A common scenario is that someone has fallen in the home and has been found after several days. The last one I was at had newspapers since the 1970s and decades of junk mail stacked. There were dog feces all over the place. The ceiling in the bathroom had collapsed, and we were fairly certain that there was no edible food in the house. We called code, who can enter, and who condemned the place as uninhabitable. At that point the patient agreed to go to the hospital, and was subsequently placed in a nursing home.(she needed one)

 

I personally would call the local code enforcement for ideas. I know they are allowed to enter a house even after being refused under certain circumstances. It may vary from county to county even within the same state.

[Reefgazer]

Yeah, I learned that Alzheimer's symptoms are not the same as dementia, and I didn't previously know that. In fact, we didn't believe the doctor when dad was diagnosed with dementia; the symptoms are so different from the Alzheimer's type symptoms we were familiar with. "Strange" is a perfect descriptor for my father's brain, as well. In retrospect, the symptoms were there in middle age. My dad presented with more physical symptoms and was with it enough to refuse help and make it difficult for anyone else to legally help him. We just had to wait it out until it got so bad we were able to lead him around like a baby. And yup, we siblings are still mopping up the mess.

 

It's NY, and it seems exactly as you've stated. It might be dementia, but it's not Alzheimer's like MIL has. The way his brain works is just... strange. Hers was/is classic Alzheimers.

Edited November 24, 2017 by reefgazer

[creekland]

Yeah, I learned that Alzheimer's symptoms are not the same as dementia, and I didn't previously know that. In fact, we didn't believe the doctor when dad was diagnosed with dementia; the symptoms are so different from the Alzheimer's type symptoms we were familiar with. "Strange" is a perfect descriptor for my father's brain, as well. In retrospect, the symptoms were there in middle age. My dad presented with more physical symptoms and was with it enough to refuse help and make it difficult for anyone else to legally help him. We just had to wait it out until it got so bad we were able to lead him around like a baby. And yup, we siblings are still mopping up the mess.

 

:grouphug:  'cause I can't add a like.  I figured other Boardies would have BTDT and I really appreciate your assistance.   This has definitely been going on - and deteriorating - for years.

[Laura Corin]

:grouphug:  'cause I can't add a like.  I figured other Boardies would have BTDT and I really appreciate your assistance.   This has definitely been going on - and deteriorating - for years.

 

I posted on the board about my mum a few years ago, and the feedback helped me to realise that I had to just wait for the crisis, which did indeed come.  It's hard to just wait and not be able to do anything.

 

The only good to come out of it is my husband's and my determination to work harder at planning for ourselves and our own old age.  Who knows what will actually happen, but we will try not to put our heads in the sand.

[Seasider]

Yes, sometimes you just have to wait for the crisis point and hope the person survives the crash-n-burn stage.

 

 

https://m.alz.org/types-of-dementia.asp

[creekland]

The magic pill is adding the rest of the Mediterranean diet to the garlic, but since he won't eat well it will be metformin or insulin until he changes his mind.  The garlic may be covering up the diabetic smell.  The nap is from low blood sugar, most likely.  Ours wouldn't bother with the doctor until the first fall, and was in denial and still noncompliant about the diabetes for decades; would suggest moving him to good nutrition. Good nutrition works quickly - by the third day in the hospital our elder is actually a pleasant person.

 

Is he eligible for Meals on Wheels?  Is there a senior center that offers a lunch during the week for a minimal contribution (here its 2.50), they carpool or arrange for the Senior Van (really an airport bus type of vehicle).  Does he have a crockpot? He could be given a recipe for lentil soup using shelf stable ingredients, then adding what he can get in fresh vegetables ( does arthritis affect his ability to prep?) and just let the crockpot do the cooking. Unfortunately we can't get past the "I don't cook" meme that was latched on to a few years ago as it combined with "I don't eat leaves", but soup with a few greens is accepted here now as its nostalgic.  

 

Mine doesn't ingest the sugar to induce sleep...its more that sleeping after meals is considered natural for the aged.  Binging at the buffet is also considered wise. Eating for vitality isn't an accepted concept, as they are still denying that different items have different nutritional value, and YOLO means indulging the sweet tooth.  Nutritiontotheedge.com has a nice section on blood sugar roller coaster if you can get him to consider it: http://www.nutritiontotheedge.com/how-blood-sugar-affects-your-health-and-energy/.  

 

Type 2 diabetes is associated with developing Alzheimer's, preventing Alz may be a motivator too.

 

Meals on Wheels... if they offer that in his area, he could possibly be interested in that.  I'll have to ask him (and probably use google to see if it's around him).  I can't see him starting to actually cook much when there is so much "easy food" available just to buy off the bakery or toss in the microwave.  When we live 8 hours away, we can't really change what he chooses to eat, but if he's open to Meals on Wheels, that might help.

 

A doctor could give him meds for diabetes (might already have TBH), but that doesn't mean he has to take them.

 

I'm now worried that he might be getting hooked on opiates.  He's called both my sibling and I multiple times this past week super afraid of what was going to happen Friday when he ran out of his pain meds (for back pain).  Then yesterday he called relieved that they had given him another prescription of it.  Maybe I'm just wary due to all the press lately and he's fine.  Who knows?

[Nan in Mass]

...

 

But none of those will be true. They aren't already, so everyone has left him as he is - eccentric and annoying, but not a danger, so no major problem. What happens when he can no longer care for himself, but is still of the same mind? I don't mean stay showered and look presentable. That already doesn't happen. I mean able to stay on his feet or walk on his paths to get places in his house - like the kitchen and bathroom.

I think it depends on him. He might die in pain in a few days with nobody knowing and helping, which would be horrible for the nobodies but can you honestly say that would be worse for him than dieing slowly in pain over the course of months or years, which is what is likely to happen to him if you force him into a new living situation? Or he might have a near miss that scares him into being ready for a new warm, clean, living situation right now. Or a near miss might make him more angry and scared of change than ever (in which case you still can't do anything). Or if he almost but not quite dies and is so damaged he can't go home after they patch him up, then the poor guy's life is out of his hands and he will end his life in a nursing home, clean and cared for but probably miserable and angry as ever.

 

Do you really think that if you force him into assisted living, he will give a sigh of relief and be happy? In my admittedly very limited experience, that doesn't happen. What love and trust the person had for their family and community and life is damaged unless the person was a very forgiving, loving, realistic person to begin with.

 

Philosophy enters into this. Do you believe people should be able to choose how to live? And to choose their end? Death is not always clean and tidy. Maybe what happens at the end of our lives readies us for what comes next? Not that we shouldn't help people... just that helping isn't really helping unless the person accepts the help. I think, anyway. Rescuing people is such a tricky thing. Lots of hugs.

 

Nan

[maize]

Philosophy enters into this. Do you believe people should be able to choose how to live? And to choose their end? Death is not always clean and tidy. Maybe what happens at the end of our lives readies us for what comes next? Not that we shouldn't help people... just that helping isn't really helping unless the person accepts the help. I think, anyway. Rescuing people is such a tricky thing. Lots of hugs.

 

Nan

There is a big complication to this philosophical question: if a person has impaired brain function--because of mental illness, or uncontrolled diabetes, or a UTI, or dementia, or whatever--are they really choosing how to live and die? CAN they choose?

 

Choices--real choices--require functioning brains.

Edited November 26, 2017 by maize

[creekland]

Do you really think that if you force him into assisted living, he will give a sigh of relief and be happy?

 

Nan

 

FWIW, he says he wants a clean, more normal, living experience.  He doesn't want assisted living, but he is endlessly trying to get my sibling to come clean for him.  He's offered the same for me and my boys (as a summer job).  In reality, he isn't willing to part with many things, so cleaning is nigh onto impossible aside from super obvious trash (and those pudding cup containers aren't trash).  Then when things get cleaned he refills quickly.  Also, if he can't find something, that's an instant accusation of "They stole this from me!!!"  The "theft" announcement gets repeated often - to everyone.

 

Then add to it that living with him is pretty impossible.  A few, including my sibling and her son - separately - have tried.  He's gone through a couple of wives too in his earlier days.

 

What he says makes me feel sorry for him - every single phone call. He's not happy.  He's not living any sort of decent life - even by his own admission.  But attempts to make suggestions or try to do anything for change don't seem to work.  It's eerily similar to when he finds something that seems to make him feel better pain-wise or health issue wise, he quits doing it.  We were supposed to go out for lunch yesterday - something he generally enjoys and says we should do more often.  He cancelled it.  Today we leave, so there's no more opportunity for a while.  I know I'll hear all about how he wishes we could get together on the next phone call.

 

I have tried just stopping over when he has cancelled before and he won't come out.  He might come to the door, but then he's angry.  I don't do that anymore.

 

His brain operates in a strange way to me - a mental illness for sure (to me) - but this particular one I have no idea how to combat.

[regentrude]

There is a big complication to this philosophical question: if a person has impaired brain function--because of mental illness, or uncontrolled diabetes, or a UTI, or dementia, or whatever--are they really choosing how to live and die? CAN they choose?

 

Choices--real choices--require functioning brains.

 

True. But does making the "right" choice for them justify causing pain and suffering? I think it is a very difficult question under which circumstances one has the right to make a loved one miserable because the healthy brain considers it the right thing to do. Especially when there is no perspective for a cure. 

[maize]

True. But does making the "right" choice for them justify causing pain and suffering? I think it is a very difficult question under which circumstances one has the right to make a loved one miserable because the healthy brain considers it the right thing to do. Especially when there is no perspective for a cure.

Where mental illness is involved the misery is usually there already, accompanied by an incapacity to put into practice any improvements that might relieve misery.

 

Outside help, where possible, may help relieve some of the misery the person cannot relieve themselves.

 

Living in squalor is I think most often a choice dictated by brain illness, not actually something people choose because they are happy that way. The illness doesn't give them a choice, either a choice to be happy or a choice to improve their circumstances.