The Sexual Harassment Christmas Song

[Word Nerd]

If we’re going to over analyze the song, then technically she never says no. She says she ought to say no.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Word Nerd

[gardenmom5]

If we’re going to over analyze the song, then technically she never says no. She says she ought to say no.

 

she does give a definitive: "the answer is no" - at the 1:33 mark.

[LMD]

And now you are reading into what I wrote. Yup. Date rape is SO hilarious. I just crack up every time I remember the time I was date raped. It was awesome.

 

I was just disagreeing with your assessment of what the song is saying. Also something totally permitted in a thread discussing the song :)

Sorry. There was no need for my sarcasm, I was out of line and I apologise. I'm also sorry for what happened to you.

 

I don't really care about this song, I have never deeply thought about it before this thread, though now I do think it lends itself to some criticism in the context of rape culture.

[Corraleno]

she does give a definitive: "the answer is no" - at the 1:33 mark.

Yup. She says "I really must go, the answer is no."

 

His lines include: "Don't hold out," "What's the sense in hurting my pride?" and "How can you do this to me?"

 

  :ack2:

[marbel]

I think the song is innocent; as others have said, a product of its time.  Not a fave, and I wouldn't seek it out to listen to it.  But it doesn't bother me.  However, my 18-year-old daughter disagrees, thinks it is creepy, and changes the station if it comes on the radio.  

 

So, my prediction is that the song is on the way out.  :-)

 

I object much more to Santa Baby.  

[Word Nerd]

I’ll take your word for it, as I don’t want to listen to the song to check. These are the lyrics that popped up when I Googled, but I assume there are different versions. https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/shehim/babyitscoldoutside.html

[I talk to the trees]

 

I would have been seriously bothered if any guy kept taking off my shrug and hat as I put them on, not to mention keep pulling me back to the couch and restraining me. I know that was a common interaction back then, but I really HATE it a lot.

I think it's actually a rather clever bit of choreography, especially when it is repeated with the roles reversed (and the guy tries to drink from the flower vase and then winds up walking out the door in the gal's hat, coat, and handbag!) Even the song itself makes more sense from a "show tunes" perspective. Can you imagine what a silly and dull film it would be if the couples just stood in one spot and said,

 

"I have to leave."

"No you don't."

"Yes I do."

"No you don't."

Etc...

 

And if folks are getting their knickers in a knot over this song, they must be foaming at the mouth over 99% of rap pieces out there.

[SKL]

The movies and songs of an era reflect the values of that era. Just as now, when I watch the original Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, the rejection of a “defective†child is shocking. The dad reindeer is ashamed and tries to hide Rudolph’s “deformity.†Santa himself dismisses Rudolph for being abnormal. Sure, it’s just an animated holiday film about magical characters. It’s not “reality.†But it reflects attitudes of the time. A movie with a narrative like that now would only happen if the dad reindeer and the Santa character were intentional villains.

 

I can remember even just my mother’s general attitude about what she thought was desirable in boys who wanted to date her daughters. It’s very foreign to me. She liked to think guys were tripping over themselves trying to get her daughters. She thought it was flattering if guys stared at me or if I “turned heads†when I was a teen. I remember one time, two guys were warring with each other because they both wanted my sister. My mom and my sister got a kick out of playing it. My sister had a photo of herself between the two guys, with an arm draped over each one’s shoulder and a wicked look on her face. My mother staged and took the photo.

 

It was all just a different attitude. I wasn’t into that; I have seen myself as a straight-shooter. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Even with other things, I don’t get coy refusals, like of a slice of cake. If you offer me a dessert and I want it, I’ll say yes. If not, I’ll say no thank you. But I’m not going to say “noâ€when what I mean is I want you to persist and convince me. Once in a while, DH thinks I’m doing that polite refusal thing and he starts saying, “oh come on...just a little slice.†I HATE that! 😑 If you badger me, I’m *really* going to say no!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

My folks who were alive in those days disagree with you on that.

 

When my friends came from India and expected to find no virgins over age 13 and all girls / women to be easy lays (well that's how it is in the movies), we had many discussions on this topic.  They understood when I said, "what if Americans thought all Indians were like the people in Hindi films?"  That got some laughs.

 

If movies were really like real life, nobody would bother going to them.

 

That was especially true back in the early half of the 1900s during war and depression, when people wanted to escape the bitter realities by going to a movie.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by SKL

[creekland]

I love the song.  I suppose part of it could be my background considering if hubby had listened when I repeatedly said no we wouldn't be married.  Sex wasn't even part of it.  He just kept wanting to take me out to dinner and then on to local travels, etc, while we were in college.  He was in love with me (on sight or due to personality or whatever).  I saw nothing special in him until he kept pestering.  29 years later I'm still in love and have no regrets.

 

There's so much perception in this song.  For me, it's all good - because I always relate it back to our story.

 

Alcohol was never part of our story either.  Hubby came from a teetotaler family.

 

As for Rudolph and other old cartoons (or TV shows) - we watch them too - nostalgia love.  When our kids were still at home we used them as discussion starters - about how life used to be and how it's improved since those days.  Hubby and I will still make fun comments when we see things too.  (We still watch old shows.)  Timeless (a totally new show we love that deals with time travel) also often makes fun comments about differences when they go back in time.  History will always be history.  We see no need to pretend it didn't happen.  We enjoy the good parts and learn from the not so good.  Well, we learn from the good too!

[SKL]

And I was taught "art is exaggeration."

 

In the context of raising kids, I think it's important to teach them that old movies not only show a different time with different norms, but also exaggeration.

 

Right now my kids and I are listening to the audiobook "Oliver Twist."  It's interesting helping my kids to separate the realism from the exaggeration from the sarcasm, because they are all there in abundance.

[creekland]

When my friends came from India and expected to find no virgins over age 13 and all girls / women to be easy lays (well that's how it is in the movies), we had many discussions on this topic.  They understood when I said, "what if Americans thought all Indians were like the people in Hindi films?"  That got some laughs.

 

If movies were really like real life, nobody would bother going to them.

 

That was especially true back in the early half of the 1900s during war and depression, when people wanted to escape the bitter realities by going to a movie.

 

 

:iagree:  A good bit of our conversations in Jordan were letting folks know about real American life (vs what they see in movies and think is true).  A good part of our conversation about our trip upon our return is sharing how much Jordan differs from American perception via our news.

 

In each case, there are always some who fit the stereotypes as our planet and its inhabitants are broad with diversity, but the stereotypes don't fit everyone - often not even the majority.

 

I could say similar things about other countries.  Jordan is just the most recent trip.

 

Creekland, it sounds like our marriages started the same way. My dh was completely smitten with me from Day 1. I would even go so far as to say he annoyed the heck outta me with his pestering. As for me? I brushed him off for two whole years (!!!) before I finally consented to dating him. I just wasn't interested in him. He patiently waited while I dated other guys, got into messy relationships, and made huge mistakes along the way. But dh was always in the background waiting. We are celebrating 23 years of wedded bliss next month.

 

Ha!  I used some of my girlfriends to help me avoid contact with him - at first.  I ended up giving in mainly because our food options at the dining hall were so dismal and his offering of real restaurants was too appealing in spite of my thinking he was a jerk (after our first date).  So not only did I marry that pestering dude who wouldn't take no for an answer, I was also attracted by money.   :lol:

 

And it worked out very well - even later on when the money was super slim and life's issues hit.

 

His persistence and not giving up when things get difficult is one of the things I cherish about him TBH.  It applies to more than just wanting dates with me.  He's been an awesome life partner and a second to none dad.  There is no one else I even remotely want a similar loving relationship with.  

[Mom-ninja.]

I think it is a product of it's own time. Trying to hold it to today's standards seems unfair. In the context of its own time it seems innocent enough. She's being coy, he's being persuasive, they both seem to be in love. I wish things were that simple now and not so seedy.

This. 

 

 

I love the song. It's one of my favorites. 

[Bluegoat]

I love the song.  I suppose part of it could be my background considering if hubby had listened when I repeatedly said no we wouldn't be married.  Sex wasn't even part of it.  He just kept wanting to take me out to dinner and then on to local travels, etc, while we were in college.  He was in love with me (on sight or due to personality or whatever).  I saw nothing special in him until he kept pestering.  29 years later I'm still in love and have no regrets.

 

There's so much perception in this song.  For me, it's all good - because I always relate it back to our story.

 

Alcohol was never part of our story either.  Hubby came from a teetotaler family.

 

As for Rudolph and other old cartoons (or TV shows) - we watch them too - nostalgia love.  When our kids were still at home we used them as discussion starters - about how life used to be and how it's improved since those days.  Hubby and I will still make fun comments when we see things too.  (We still watch old shows.)  Timeless (a totally new show we love that deals with time travel) also often makes fun comments about differences when they go back in time.  History will always be history.  We see no need to pretend it didn't happen.  We enjoy the good parts and learn from the not so good.  Well, we learn from the good too!

 

I think culturally we're kind of on the opposite trajectory than the people in the song.

 

They were starting to loosen up somewhat in the early 20th century from a very scripted, rules based approach to romantic interaction that the Victorians had.  So the tension in the song is between observing that set of rules that her parents were likely more familiar with, or loosening up and doing what she wanted - and ultimately that takes you to the late 60s through the 80s where almost anything goes sexually and propriety is irrelevant.

 

Whereas we are coming out of that period and moving back to a much more formalized and rules based approach.

 

I find this song kind of interesting in that the controversy really brings out the pros and cons of both.  It's easy to sympathize with them not carrying about convention, and their playfulness is really kind of delightful.  OTOH, people are uncomfortable because on the other-side of the anything goes era, we can see that actually, sexual interactions can be more subtle and problematic than we realize, and having certain social/cultural formalities and rules observed might mitigate that.  But sadly, those interactions do seem less fun and carefree that what is in the film.

[LMD]

Found this fun and interesting article on the topic, a feminist defense of the original song - bonus, it includes a video of an updated non-potentially-creepy version.

 

https://www.manrepeller.com/2016/12/in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside.html

Edited November 23, 2017 by LMD

[poppy]

Found this fun and interesting article on the topic, a feminist defense of the original song - bonus, it includes a video of an updated non-potentially-creepy version.

 

https://www.manrepeller.com/2016/12/in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside.html

 

Love this.  About the 'what's in this drink' line:       "“It is not a joke about how she’s drunk and about to be raped,†she (the blogger!) writes. “It’s a joke about how she’s perfectly sober and about to have awesome consensual sex and use the drink for plausible deniability because she’s living in a society where women aren’t supposed to have sexual agency.â€

 

I also saw this online today which reminded me of this conversation, which makes the same point (crude language warning)

Short version is, she wants to stay and has to pretend to want not to. We all do that sometimes - about dessert , for example. "Oh I couldn't possibly..... well, if you insist".

https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23621997_163608357710645_1244589016668181246_n.jpg?oh=d11bba4e541fb5736eae56241a595b16&oe=5AA70758

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by poppy

[poppy]

The problem with that interpretation is that it gives such good cover for rapists. "Oh I didn't know she didn't want to. I thought she was just pretending and saying 'no, stop' because that's what girls are supposed to say."

 

Only if they go back in a time machine to the 1940s.

[EMS83]

You know...when we have jewels like "Get Low" floating around, I have a hard time batting an eye at this song.  I actually like it, and if I had any moral complaint about it, it'd be that the couple is obviously not married.  I choose to interpret it more innocently, though, and assume they're engaged and things don't necessarily lead to sex.  ;)  

 

 

[Guest]

The problem with that interpretation is that it gives such good cover for rapists. "Oh I didn't know she didn't want to. I thought she was just pretending and saying 'no, stop' because that's what girls are supposed to say."

Yes, but even on a more basic level: I really do think there have been a lot of men who have made undesired advances and/or gone too far because they don’t have a good grasp of nuance and/or they were taught that no might not mean no, but might mean make a better case.

 

And also, I never do that no-means-maybe thing with desserts and it *really* annoys me when a person tries to pursuade me to eat something. I am NOT being dainty; if I want a cookie, I’ll say yes, thank you. If I don’t I will say no thank you and I REALLY want that to be the end of the exchange.

 

I know there are regional cultures where there’s “supposed†to be this whole social dance of not saying what you mean; it is much more common in the American south. Where Jane is supposed to offer Mary a slice of pie and Mary, though she’s been dreaming of the pie all day, is supposed to look restrained and dainty and thus say, oh, none for me, I’m reducing, I couldn’t possibly indulge. Then Jane is supposed to pressure her, oh, I insist! You don’t want me to have gone to this trouble for nothing! And I can’t possibly eat all this pie myself! At least just have a sliver... And now Mary is supposed to act like she’s waivering and might consider a piece, but she’ll say cut it small and then Jane will “accidentally†cut it large anyway because the social dance is supposed to go this way and she knows darn well that Mary wants that pie and she wants a BIG slice!

 

I don’t like any of that bull. If I want a piece of pie and Jane offers, I’m going straight to yes, I’d love one, thanks!

 

Of all the odd facts I remember about when I first dated DH, one that stands out was that he remarked that I was decisive. Whenever he proposed we should go do something, I never said, “Oh, sure, whatever.†I said, “yes, I’ve been thinking I want to see the movie Titanic...†He liked it. He liked clear signals.

[Garga]

I think the song one person is being a bit pushy, but it's also a context thing about it being inappropriate at the time to sleep over.  I also never thought for one minute he was drugging the drink.   I think she's trying to blame the alcohol.   It's a weird thing to sing about at Christmas, that's for sure.

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.

 

 

 

I read somewhere that Sting wrote the song to be a creepy stalker song and was bemused that everyone thought it was a romantic love song.

 

 

I watched the whole video and think it's creepy, not cute. I've been in situations where I wanted to leave and a guy would physically try to prevent me from going, while acting like this was all just a fun little cat and mouse game. Watching that guy repeatedly touch and restrain the woman and physically block her from leaving, just gave me the creeps. I felt the same about the second half, which had the bonus cringe factor of portraying a woman who wanted sex as obnoxious and scary (the guy looks scared not happy when she turns out the light), in contrast to the man in the first half, who is portrayed as suave and romantic and someone who knew "she really wanted it" despite the woman saying no. Blech.  :ack2:

 

I watched the video with the sound off because it's after midnight and I didn't want to wake dh who is sleeping next to me. If you watch it with the sound off, her body language is pushing him away and trying to get away for the entire time. And I especially hated the beginning (I think before they sing...it's hard to tell w/o sound), where he sits there and rolls his eyes while he's first trying to think of a way to make her stay. His aggression is over the top and she wants to go and he Will Not Stop. I know she's supposed to be being coy because it's the 1940s, but the video shows men that when women give you All The Signals that they want to go (and she gives a LOT of signals)...she doesn't really want to go so keep pestering until she gives in. Don't give up. And the line about his pride? Are you kidding me? She should do what he wants for his pride? Ew ew ew!

 

  

Yes, but even on a more basic level: I really do think there have been a lot of men who have made undesired advances and/or gone too far because they don’t have a good grasp of nuance and/or they were taught that no might not mean no, but might mean make a better case.

And also, I never do that no-means-maybe thing with desserts and it *really* annoys me when a person tries to pursuade me to eat something. I am NOT being dainty; if I want a cookie, I’ll say yes, thank you. If I don’t I will say no thank you and I REALLY want that to be the end of the exchange.

I know there are regional cultures where there’s “supposed†to be this whole social dance of not saying what you mean; it is much more common in the American south. Where Jane is supposed to offer Mary a slice of pie and Mary, though she’s been dreaming of the pie all day, is supposed to look restrained and dainty and thus say, oh, none for me, I’m reducing, I couldn’t possibly indulge. Then Jane is supposed to pressure her, oh, I insist! You don’t want me to have gone to this trouble for nothing! And I can’t possibly eat all this pie myself! At least just have a sliver... And now Mary is supposed to act like she’s waivering and might consider a piece, but she’ll say cut it small and then Jane will “accidentally†cut it large anyway because the social dance is supposed to go this way and she knows darn well that Mary wants that pie and she wants a BIG slice!

I don’t like any of that bull. If I want a piece of pie and Jane offers, I’m going straight to yes, I’d love one, thanks!

Of all the odd facts I remember about when I first dated DH, one that stands out was that he remarked that I was decisive. Whenever he proposed we should go do something, I never said, “Oh, sure, whatever.†I said, “yes, I’ve been thinking I want to see the movie Titanic...†He liked it. He liked clear signals.

The "want some pie" dance caused a lot of tension with my in-laws when I got married. I'm like you. I give an honest answer the first time around. I didn't know the steps to the dance and ended up stepping on a lot of toes.

 

 

 

I loved to watch Rudolph when I was kid, but when I showed it to my kids they were very distressed by it. They looked at me with looks of astonished horror that I had told them what a good show it was. My oldest blurted out, "Santa is a JERK!" And now that they're older, they delight in saying, "Santa is a jerk!" whenever it's funny to do so.

[gardenmom5]

Yes, but even on a more basic level: I really do think there have been a lot of men who have made undesired advances and/or gone too far because they don’t have a good grasp of nuance and/or they were taught that no might not mean no, but might mean make a better case.

 

And also, I never do that no-means-maybe thing with desserts and it *really* annoys me when a person tries to pursuade me to eat something. I am NOT being dainty; if I want a cookie, I’ll say yes, thank you. If I don’t I will say no thank you and I REALLY want that to be the end of the exchange.

 

I know there are regional cultures where there’s “supposed†to be this whole social dance of not saying what you mean; it is much more common in the American south. 

 

this was my grandmother - she was from missouri - but before that her ggparents came from tennessee and kentucky.   so, not the deep south, but not exactly yankees either.  I've no idea if this was her family culture - or just her. she never accepted a "no" - and it would anger her if you kept repeating the no.  (as many times as it took.)

 

dh- his family never played those games. if you said no - he took you at your word, and you didn't get steak.   There's a whole story of that one about a "I don't eat beef" (and I don't want one.) family member, and last minute seating changes due to chaos and the *where's my steak?*! in the middle of the prayer on the food. dh. . . . "oh, I'm so sorry, I misunderstood. How would you like it cooked?"  no, I dont' want one.

 

taking someone at their word can also be satisfying when they play these sorts of games . . . .

[Carrie12345]

And if folks are getting their knickers in a knot over this song, they must be foaming at the mouth over 99% of rap pieces out there.

 

I actually enjoy quite a bit of rap. Primarily early 90s/Tupac, with a little old(er) school and new stuff thrown in.  But it's incredibly easy to keep my kids away from it.  Gangsta rap rarely, if ever, gets rotated in mainstream stations.

 

I imagine my reaction to this song coming on the radio and/or screen is somewhat similar to how my parents felt with "I Want Your Sex", "Like a Virgin", and "Push It" being in heavy rotation when my sisters and I were younger.

 

I do like talking about messages in music with my 19, 15, and 14yos.  It's my 10 and 7yos who have no context that I worry about.

[Tanaqui]

Short version is, she wants to stay and has to pretend to want not to. We all do that sometimes - about dessert , for example. "Oh I couldn't possibly..... well, if you insist".

 

No, we do not all do that. If I want dessert, I say "Yes, please! Cut me a nice big slice!"

 

Only if they go back in a time machine to the 1940s.

 

Would that this were true! But no, we still hear the same tired old defenses of pushy, inappropriate behavior and harassment and rape.

[historically accurate]

I’ll take your word for it, as I don’t want to listen to the song to check. These are the lyrics that popped up when I Googled, but I assume there are different versions. https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/shehim/babyitscoldoutside.html

 

Dean Martin Lyrics has the lines: "I really must go... The answer is no."

 

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/deanmartin/babyitscoldoutside.html

[Laura Corin]

.

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.   

It was written to have that effect.  This from Wikipedia:

 

Sting later said he was disconcerted by how many people think the song is more positive than it is. He insists it is about the obsession with a lost lover, and the jealousy and surveillance that follow. "One couple told me 'Oh we love that song; it was the main song played at our wedding!' I thought, 'Well, good luck.'"^[12] When asked why he appears angry in the music video Sting told BBC Radio 2, "I think the song is very, very sinister and ugly and people have actually misinterpreted it as being a gentle little love song, when it's quite the opposite."^[13]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Breath_You_Take}

[bettyandbob]

The song never bothered me. I guess I never associated it with rohypnol.

 

Run for your life by the Beatles bothers me I think more than almost anything. It's explicit stalker. I think it bothers me more than modern stuff because it is the Beatles and I generally like them. I think also because songs of that period didn't have lyrics like that. I heard it once on the radio as part of a long tribute in which I think almost the whole Beatles library was played about 10 years ago. My blood just ran cold.

 

As far as the OP referenced song, I like the scene in Elf where it is sung.

[Ausmumof3]

I think the song one person is being a bit pushy, but it's also a context thing about it being inappropriate at the time to sleep over. I also never thought for one minute he was drugging the drink. I think she's trying to blame the alcohol. It's a weird thing to sing about at Christmas, that's for sure.

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police. I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.

Yep it goes by the name of "that stalker song" in our house...

[EMS83]

The problem with "Every Breath You Take" is that the melody is simple and pretty, and maybe that lends to the creepiness.  Because I like the song, but the lyrics are for sure creepy.  So there's this bizarre moment of dissonance after a few lines.

 

[LMD]

I actually enjoy quite a bit of rap. Primarily early 90s/Tupac, with a little old(er) school and new stuff thrown in. But it's incredibly easy to keep my kids away from it. Gangsta rap rarely, if ever, gets rotated in mainstream stations.

 

I imagine my reaction to this song coming on the radio and/or screen is somewhat similar to how my parents felt with "I Want Your Sex", "Like a Virgin", and "Push It" being in heavy rotation when my sisters and I were younger.

 

I do like talking about messages in music with my 19, 15, and 14yos. It's my 10 and 7yos who have no context that I worry about.

I remember some really awful stuff from the 90s, in retrospect lol. Not Garbage though, Garbage are awesome forever. So I can't get upset about my daughter liking Lady Sovereign (especially if I like her too)

 

But yes, we discuss a lot. Some things I leave alone since it goes over their heads - innuendo and double entendres. We discussed drugs after listening to the Dandy Warhols, and alcohol addiction after listening to Cold War Kids...

 

So, I am not going to be calling for censorship of this song! It's an interesting conversation.

[creekland]

The problem with "Every Breath You Take" is that the melody is simple and pretty, and maybe that lends to the creepiness.  Because I like the song, but the lyrics are for sure creepy.  So there's this bizarre moment of dissonance after a few lines.

 

This is the problem with a lot of songs.  I love the tunes, but when listening to the words - not so much.  One can tune out the words.  ;)

 

One of my favorite singers from my youth is Neil Diamond.  He has some awesome songs out there (The Story of My Life being my most favorite).  I have CDs of his I play in my car when I want to reminisce and no radio station is suitable.  But songs like Desiree?  Love the tune - the content, not so much.  We still used it as a teaching point for our kids.

 

But with the song from the OP - it still had fond memories for me of my own life, so no issues with it except when folks take it the wrong way and want to ban it.  ;)

 

I can't say I'm for banning any song TBH.  Pick and choose what you want.  We all ignore some (many?) things we hear (while shopping or whenever).

 

I'm one who likes Every Breath You Take.  No regrets.  I put it into my own life's connections and there's nothing wrong with it.

[EMS83]

I can't tune out words.  I have to sing along, and sing it when the mood strikes (I'm not a great singer, mind).  DH can filter out words; I can't.  I have to point out when things are there that are questionable or just plain yuck to me.  Like certain lines from Florence and the Machine's "Howl" that make me unable to listen to the song.  I mean, talk about being aggressive...good grief.  And I know that's the point of the song, but I have to choose not to listen.  I guess it's just not my style, like coy isn't some other posters' styles.  But I do agree to a point with PPs that don't like the idea of coy: the coy game can't be played with a selfish and/or dense person.  You need to know what sort of person is being stubborn at you before becoming distressed or flattered.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure that it's really possible to filter out things like double-meanings, coyness, and all the rest of it from language.  That seems like a hopeless task.

[SKL]

 

I don’t like any of that bull. If I want a piece of pie and Jane offers, I’m going straight to yes, I’d love one, thanks!

 

Of all the odd facts I remember about when I first dated DH, one that stands out was that he remarked that I was decisive. Whenever he proposed we should go do something, I never said, “Oh, sure, whatever.†I said, “yes, I’ve been thinking I want to see the movie Titanic...†He liked it. He liked clear signals.

 

I'm glad that works for you and your husband.  It doesn't work as well for everyone.

 

This reminds me of the first day my Indian friend was in the US.  (I was not there.)  She was invited to a dinner and offered some food, which she politely declined 2x, as she had been taught since childhood.  Her hosts proceeded to eat in front of her, with her sitting there thinking all the worst things about Americans.  :P

 

But back to the sex discussion.  For many (most?) people, the pre-intimacy dance is more important than the sex itself.  Most people understand the dance well enough, whether by instinct or education.  For those situations that go too far, adults should teach young people clear signals that cannot be misinterpreted.

 

But maybe we're too far gone and the dance is prohibited - I agree with a prior poster or link that said it feels more puritan than anything else, like the times past when all dancing was considered evil.  Or maybe young people will come up with a dance of their own, which we old people won't understand.

[SKL]

  But I do agree to a point with PPs that don't like the idea of coy: the coy game can't be played with a selfish and/or dense person.  You need to know what sort of person is being stubborn at you before becoming distressed or flattered.

 

And maybe this is why one-on-one dates and quick-moving romantic relationships have not been historically popular.  Because it's better to have a chance to see how the person interacts about mundane things so you can understand their overall language before you get into a serious situation.

[poppy]

Speaking of the Beatles:  "She was just 17, if you know what I mean..... "    No, what do you mean, you perv?

 

[SKL]

What's gross, since we're going there, is the movie American Beauty, which somehow won 5 Academy awards including Best Picture.  And we are outraged about an old song that jokes about the consensual adult foreplay dance.

[creekland]

This reminds me of the first day my Indian friend was in the US.  (I was not there.)  She was invited to a dinner and offered some food, which she politely declined 2x, as she had been taught since childhood.  Her hosts proceeded to eat in front of her, with her sitting there thinking all the worst things about Americans.  :p

 

And when youngest went to Jordan, he was schooled on politely declining to fit in with their culture.  He did so, expecting to be asked again, etc.  His host family had heard about Americans, so didn't stick with their custom and went on ahead without asking him again thinking they were being polite.  He was wondering what in the world he had done wrong!

 

They also put individual plates, forks, napkins, and drinks on the table for him - and us - trying to politely adjust to hosting Americans.  Gradually they realized all of us are ok with adapting to their customs while in their country - and actually like the experience of doing so.

[Seasider]

It was written to have that effect. This from Wikipedia:

 

Sting later said he was disconcerted by how many people think the song is more positive than it is. He insists it is about the obsession with a lost lover, and the jealousy and surveillance that follow. "One couple told me 'Oh we love that song; it was the main song played at our wedding!' I thought, 'Well, good luck.'"^[12] When asked why he appears angry in the music video Sting told BBC Radio 2, "I think the song is very, very sinister and ugly and people have actually misinterpreted it as being a gentle little love song, when it's quite the opposite."^[13]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Breath_You_Take}

Goodness yes, I remember that video well. Creepy!

[Seasider]

The problem with "Every Breath You Take" is that the melody is simple and pretty, and maybe that lends to the creepiness. Because I like the song, but the lyrics are for sure creepy. So there's this bizarre moment of dissonance after a few lines.

Simple because the stalker is single-minded, fixated in one thing. It fits.

 

Blondie had a stalker song in the same era, One Way Or Another.

"I'm.....gonnnnnna...drive by your house

And.....iiifffff...the lights are all out..."

Edited November 24, 2017 by Seasider

[EMS83]

<snip>

This reminds me of the first day my Indian friend was in the US.  (I was not there.)  She was invited to a dinner and offered some food, which she politely declined 2x, as she had been taught since childhood.  Her hosts proceeded to eat in front of her, with her sitting there thinking all the worst things about Americans.  :p

<snip>

 

 

And when youngest went to Jordan, he was schooled on politely declining to fit in with their culture.  He did so, expecting to be asked again, etc.  His host family had heard about Americans, so didn't stick with their custom and went on ahead without asking him again thinking they were being polite.  He was wondering what in the world he had done wrong!

 

They also put individual plates, forks, napkins, and drinks on the table for him - and us - trying to politely adjust to hosting Americans.  Gradually they realized all of us are ok with adapting to their customs while in their country - and actually like the experience of doing so.

 

 

Ok thread-jacking for just a minute: So what's the proper thing to do in India (like, the whole country??) and Jordan with refusing X number of times?  

And how do people in Jordan typically do silverware and place settings?

 

That was nice of the hosts to try to accommodate you.  I wouldn't even know what to recommend as a common American practice...I have no basis for comparison either nationally or globally.

Ok thread-jacking for just a minute: So what's the proper thing to do in India (like, the whole country??) and Jordan with refusing X number of times?  

And how do people in Jordan typically do silverware and place settings?

 

That was nice of the hosts to try to accommodate you.  I wouldn't even know what to recommend as a common American practice...I have no basis for comparison either nationally or globally.

[EMS83]

Simple because the stalker is single-minded, fixated in one thing. It fits.

 

Blondie had a stalker song in the same era, One Way Or Another.

"I'm.....gonnnnnna...drive by your house

And.....iiifffff...the lights are all out..."

 

That makes sense.

 

And oh yeah, that song!  That one's super catchy.  So sad, lol.

[Tanaqui]

Run for your life by the Beatles bothers me I think more than almost anything. It's explicit stalker

 

I just looked it up, oh god, it's awful. And apparently it's taken from a single line in an Elvis song... a line which elevates that song from "banal" to "awful" in just a few short words.

[Bluegoat]

Speaking of the Beatles:  "She was just 17, if you know what I mean..... "    No, what do you mean, you perv?

 

There are a ton of songs from the 60s and 70s about romance and sex that feature 16 and 17 year olds, either actually coming out and saying the age, or that they are high school students.  I don't think the Beatles were being at all controversial.  

 

I think it just follows from the same kind of thing from the 50's, except at that point, the teens were described as just dating.  Once you get the sexual revolution, it's all about sex and you get that Beatles song, Night Moves by Bob Seeger, I Love Rock and Roll, etc.

[Guest]

I can't tune out words. I have to sing along, and sing it when the mood strikes (I'm not a great singer, mind). DH can filter out words; I can't. I have to point out when things are there that are questionable or just plain yuck to me. Like certain lines from Florence and the Machine's "Howl" that make me unable to listen to the song. I mean, talk about being aggressive...good grief. And I know that's the point of the song, but I have to choose not to listen. I guess it's just not my style, like coy isn't some other posters' styles. But I do agree to a point with PPs that don't like the idea of coy: the coy game can't be played with a selfish and/or dense person. You need to know what sort of person is being stubborn at you before becoming distressed or flattered.

I can’t, either. Although I can say with certainty that I do not have a fir and consistent bar against which all songs are judged. I still think all of AC/DCs classic songs are terrific when I hear them and they have the most highly questionable, awful or just plain illogical lyrics. We were forbidden from playing that Back in Black album - Hells Bells, Highway to Hell, Shook Me All Night Long. There were all terrible lyrics. Yet, such a great beat! 😉

 

Some songs bother me when I really hear the words. (George Michael’s Father Figure springs immediately to mind, whatever excuse might be made about what it was supposed to mean. That song is unbearable whenever I hear it.) Yet Ever Breath You Take does not bother me despite the lyrics and the intention of them -it is so mellow it’s hard to see it as threatening. I liked Baby It’s Cold Outside when I heard it on Elf. I don’t think I had heard it much before that movie; it wasn’t in the repertoire of mostly very Christian Christmas songs I grew up hearing. But, enjoying the sound of the duet, I looked up the lyrics and that’s when I went...wait, what? Don’t hurt my pride?! I just don’t think I can enjoy the song now, because it brings bad things to mind for me now.

 

One big difference between this song and something like bad rap lyrics or bad speed metal lyrics or whatever is that this song plays anywhere as secular holiday music. I seriously heard it three times in a couple of hours the day I posted this thread.

[EMS83]

I can’t, either. Although I can say with certainty that I do not have a fir and consistent bar against which all songs are judged. I still think all of AC/DCs classic songs are terrific when I hear them and they have the most highly questionable, awful or just plain illogical lyrics. We were forbidden from playing that Back in Black album - Hells Bells, Highway to Hell, Shook Me All Night Long. There were all terrible lyrics. Yet, such a great beat! 😉

 

Some songs bother me when I really hear the words. (George Michael’s Father Figure springs immediately to mind, whatever excuse might be made about what it was supposed to mean. That song is unbearable whenever I hear it.) Yet Ever Breath You Take does not bother me despite the lyrics and the intention of them -it is so mellow it’s hard to see it as threatening. I liked Baby It’s Cold Outside when I heard it on Elf. I don’t think I had heard it much before that movie; it wasn’t in the repertoire of mostly very Christian Christmas songs I grew up hearing. But, enjoying the sound of the duet, I looked up the lyrics and that’s when I went...wait, what? Don’t hurt my pride?! I just don’t think I can enjoy the song now, because it brings bad things to mind for me now.

 

One big difference between this song and something like bad rap lyrics or bad speed metal lyrics or whatever is that this song plays anywhere as secular holiday music. I seriously heard it three times in a couple of hours the day I posted this thread.

 

True, you can't control what's played in public.  I know it because a local radio station starts playing all kinds of Christmas music at the beginning of November.  I just turn the volume down when that comes one, because of the kids (and their current non-filter).  Same thing with Santa Baby and maybe a few others.  I spend as little time in public as possible between Thanksgiving and Christmas, though, so store music hasn't been much of an issue for us.

True, you can't control what's played in public.  I know it because a local radio station starts playing all kinds of Christmas music at the beginning of November.  I just turn the volume down when that comes one, because of the kids.  Same thing with Santa Baby and maybe a few others.  Not because I think they're bad, but because my kids' collective filter isn't great.  I spend as little time in public as possible between Thanksgiving and Christmas, though, so store music hasn't been much of an issue.

[SKL]

Every Breath you Take - I was about 16 when this came out and I was reading Rebecca (to radio music), which probably affected how the song felt to me.  Or maybe it affected how the book read, or both.

 

But I didn't think it meant literally I'll be stalking you.  I thought it was one of those typical post-breakup songs, how can I ever live without you, can't stop thinking about you, soon you'll realize I was the right person for you and you'll come back.  I took it to mean he was going to watch for a chance between her future romances to try again.

[LMD]

I can’t, either. Although I can say with certainty that I do not have a fir and consistent bar against which all songs are judged. I still think all of AC/DCs classic songs are terrific when I hear them and they have the most highly questionable, awful or just plain illogical lyrics. We were forbidden from playing that Back in Black album - Hells Bells, Highway to Hell, Shook Me All Night Long. There were all terrible lyrics. Yet, such a great beat! 😉

 

Some songs bother me when I really hear the words. (George Michael’s Father Figure springs immediately to mind, whatever excuse might be made about what it was supposed to mean. That song is unbearable whenever I hear it.) Yet Ever Breath You Take does not bother me despite the lyrics and the intention of them -it is so mellow it’s hard to see it as threatening. I liked Baby It’s Cold Outside when I heard it on Elf. I don’t think I had heard it much before that movie; it wasn’t in the repertoire of mostly very Christian Christmas songs I grew up hearing. But, enjoying the sound of the duet, I looked up the lyrics and that’s when I went...wait, what? Don’t hurt my pride?! I just don’t think I can enjoy the song now, because it brings bad things to mind for me now.

 

One big difference between this song and something like bad rap lyrics or bad speed metal lyrics or whatever is that this song plays anywhere as secular holiday music. I seriously heard it three times in a couple of hours the day I posted this thread.

Darn. I guess I can ignore lyrics and enjoy songs anyway because you just ruined Father Figure for me but I really want to listen to it again now because that chorus is epic - musically! :lol: I was a little young when this song came out so my memory is mainly music witha few words here and there.

 

I found this interesting little article called 4 incredibly creepy love songs, featuring Father Figure!

 

http://www.weirdworm.com/4-incredibly-creepy-love-songs/

Edited November 24, 2017 by LMD

[creekland]

Ok thread-jacking for just a minute: So what's the proper thing to do in India (like, the whole country??) and Jordan with refusing X number of times?  

And how do people in Jordan typically do silverware and place settings?

 

That was nice of the hosts to try to accommodate you.  I wouldn't even know what to recommend as a common American practice...I have no basis for comparison either nationally or globally.

 

In Jordan, it's common for hosts to want to feed guests and after a meal or snack, offer tea or coffee.  One is supposed to refuse politely once or twice, then stay and say yes.  I'm not totally sure where the custom came from, but we definitely saw it in action among local people.  There are very few "quick visits."  One at least accepts tea.

 

Eating?  Theirs is communal.  All plates are filled with food and placed on the table.  You eat from the side of the large plate closest to you, adding whatever sauce, meat, or spices (like salt, sugar, or whatever) you want to your area of the main plate (often rice).  Salt is not in a shaker. It's in a communal bowl.  You take a pinch out with your fingers. Olive oil is in a bowl too - communal dipping for things like bread and then any additions like seeds or spices.  Soup is the only exception - that's served individually and you get your own spoon.  Eating is done with your hands or you can use bread (naan bread) as something to pick up things with - often used for picking up rice and mixtures with it.  There are no napkins.  Your hands get dirty.  Such is life.  You are expected to wash hands (publicly) before and after eating.  You can use your left hand to eat or pull your own meat apart, but don't grab food from the communal plates/bowls with it.  The custom goes along with that being your "use this in the bathroom" hand.  (Toilet paper is not always available, esp in places most tourists don't frequent.  Hole in the ground toilets can still be around too.)  For my left handed hubby, this was a bigger one to learn.  No drinks are served with a meal.  Tea or coffee comes later.

 

Our host family was fairly wealthy... and it's definitely the custom they and their kids used.  They seemed quite pleased that we were willing to adapt to their ways.  They've hosted (college) students for a long time now and apparently many do not care to switch.  They definitely were not expecting the parents of one of their hosted lads to be open to it.  Once they found we were, it seemed to open a whole different dimension to our visit with their inviting us to a BBQ at their farm and meeting some of their extended family, etc.  They cooked many traditional foods for us (things they regularly eat) and it was superb TBH - for us - far better than any of the restaurants we ate in while there (generally when visiting away from Amman).

 

BIG NOTE:  Do NOT let this dissuade anyone from visiting.  In tourist areas they are 100% used to the fact that their customs are not the same as many of their visitors.  If in restaurants or similar, you can expect the same "service" you get in any developed nation (drinks, plates, silverware, napkins - and toilet paper).  This is a custom that is local (and similar in some other countries).  

[Tanaqui]

But I didn't think it meant literally I'll be stalking you.  I thought it was one of those typical post-breakup songs, how can I ever live without you, can't stop thinking about you, soon you'll realize I was the right person for you and you'll come back.  I took it to mean he was going to watch for a chance between her future romances to try again.

 

Well, Sting says otherwise, and - Death of the Author aside - I'm inclined to agree with his interpretation here :)

[gardenmom5]

And when youngest went to Jordan, he was schooled on politely declining to fit in with their culture.  He did so, expecting to be asked again, etc.  His host family had heard about Americans, so didn't stick with their custom and went on ahead without asking him again thinking they were being polite.  He was wondering what in the world he had done wrong!

 

 

my niece had something similar in japan.  they were in a more rural, not many tourists area. when your plate was empty - they bring more food.    so, being taught to "clean their plate" - their hosts kept bringing them food.  the food was great - but her stomach was screaming at her.

 

Simple because the stalker is single-minded, fixated in one thing. It fits.

 

Blondie had a stalker song in the same era, One Way Or Another.

"I'm.....gonnnnnna...drive by your house

And.....iiifffff...the lights are all out..."

 

the music for that one sounds more intimidating, angry, etc.  like "I'm gonna get'cha."

 

The creep factor is exacerbated as the singers get older. I mean, an 18 year old singing about making out with his high school girlfriend is one thing. If the song becomes a hit and the guy is still singing it in stadium tours when he's 65 it comes off a little differently. But how do you not sing your big hits on your big tours?

 

I remember reading an interview with Billy Joel that talked about that dynamic.

 

that's why Jimmy Stewart stopped making movies with himself as a romantic lead - it was creeping him out.  so he started making westerns.

[Word Nerd]

Gary Puckett’s Young Girl is TERRIBLE. I remember it getting a mention in Dave Barry’s Worst Song Ever survey. https://genius.com/Gary-puckett-and-the-union-gap-young-girl-lyrics

Edited November 24, 2017 by Word Nerd