The Sexual Harassment Christmas Song

[Ginevra]

Seriously, this song just needs to go. And it does kind of kill me yo say so, because I really like the clever duet harmony and it has a great sound. And the whole Elf thing really made me like the song, too. But I just think our current culture is over a song that banters aboutputting something in a woman’s drink and how his pride will be hurt if she leaves. And she also says she, “ought to say No.â€

 

I just can’t hear the song anymore without thinking about the implications of this sort of “convincing coy woman/seductive man†banter. Baby It’s Cold Outside. We’re done with you, bad meme song.

[scrapbookbuzz]

I'd have to agree. Sadly, because it's "traditional" it may be awhile before we see that happen.

[ktgrok]

There are a few interpretations that say it's her pretending she has to go to save face, when she wants to stay...which has it's own issues but at least isn't then about sexual harassment. 

[SKL]

Coy is real though.  At least it used to be.  If a woman wants to choose coy, are we saying that is not allowed?

[Lady Florida.]

There are a few interpretations that say it's her pretending she has to go to save face, when she wants to stay...which has it's own issues but at least isn't then about sexual harassment. 

 

That's the interpretation I always knew and never heard of it being harassment until recent years. Saving face was a big deal at the time the song came out. I always imagined the people in the song as an established couple and that she wanted to stay but is afraid of what her family and friends will say (kind of like the earlier Wake Up Little Susie "What are we gonna tell our friends when they say Ooo la la").

Edited November 21, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[SKL]

But FTR I never heard of that song ever, until I saw it on the list of sex perv songs.  I'm not saying the song needs to stay.  :P 

[maize]

Someone rewrote it:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/us/baby-its-cold-outside-cover-trnd/index.html

 

 

It's a winter song but really not a holiday song at all, really irks me that it gets put on Christmas playlists.

Edited November 21, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

There are a few interpretations that say it's her pretending she has to go to save face, when she wants to stay...which has it's own issues but at least isn't then about sexual harassment.

Well, yes, I agree, but that was a “thing†when that song was originally written. There was the cultural idwa that women liked to be “persuaded†by an ardent pursuer who wouldn’t take no for an answer. Unfortunately, that sent a confusing signal about coy behavior vs. Straightforward No-Means-No.

 

That was why we had a cartoon in which a love-struck skunk repeatedly persued a terrified cat; it was seen as funny. But it’s clearly tone-deaf now.

[Guest]

Coy is real though. At least it used to be. If a woman wants to choose coy, are we saying that is not allowed?

I think coy is dead as example to young people nowadays. Especially with all the young people with ASD who don’t understand subtlety like that.

 

Be coy with an established partner, sure. (Actually, I don’t really do that either because DH is not a man for nuance...)

[SKL]

I actually think it's natural for at least some women to like being pursued.  If someone is wired that way, I don't think it's wrong to act on that.

 

Of course it bears noting that coy behavior in the days of Dean Martin (among regular people) didn't mean "have sex with me," it just meant "show me you're interested in me if you don't want me to leave."  It wasn't assumed that every woman who had some interest in a guy wanted to have sex in the near future.

[HomeAgain]

Wasn't it written by a husband & wife to perform in front of their friends?

 

The song doesn't bother me.  Who sings it might rub me the wrong way, but that's because I already think some are skeevy.

[MinivanMom]

There are a few interpretations that say it's her pretending she has to go to save face, when she wants to stay...which has it's own issues but at least isn't then about sexual harassment. 

 

This. Wasn't the song written in the 40's? 

[Guest]

Wasn't it written by a husband & wife to perform in front of their friends?

 

The song doesn't bother me. Who sings it might rub me the wrong way, but that's because I already think some are skeevy.

If the song were ABOUT a husband and wife, though it makes no sense. Why will her father pace the floor? Why will it hurt his pride if she goes home and' obviously, home is elsewhere.

 

Who wrote the song is largely irrelevant.

[Lady Florida.]

Wasn't it written by a husband & wife to perform in front of their friends?

 

The song doesn't bother me.  Who sings it might rub me the wrong way, but that's because I already think some are skeevy.

 

Yes to your question. Here are a few articles about it.

 

https://www.salon.com/2015/12/06/warming_up_to_baby_its_cold_outside_what_my_mother_taught_me_about_the_guy_who_wrote_that_rapey_christmas_song/  

 

http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/05/here-is-why-baby-its-cold-outside-is-not-a-song-about-rape/  

 

And I agree that who is singing it matters. Dean Martin with some bikini babe? Skeevy. Robin Thicke if he sang it? Skeevy. A duet of two decent people. Not skeevy.

[Carrie12345]

MY interpretation is that, yes, she wants to stay but is fretting over her reputation.

That said, I don't want my kids listening to it.

[SKL]

Of all the popular songs that might give kids the wrong idea about sex ....

[Lady Florida.]

If the song were ABOUT a husband and wife, though it makes no sense. Why will her father pace the floor? Why will it hurt his pride if she goes home and' obviously, home is elsewhere.

 

 

 

Because in 1944 when the song was written "good girls" didn't stay late at a boyfriend's house, didn't admit to having sexual desires, and certainly didn't stay over night. Boys could sow their wild oats but girls had to remain virginal lest they be "ruined". It's not about a husband and wife but it is (probably) about a couple. 

[Peaceseeker]

I think it is a product of it's own time. Trying to hold it to today's standards seems unfair. In the context of its own time it seems innocent enough. She's being coy, he's being persuasive, they both seem to be in love. I wish things were that simple now and not so seedy.

[Seasider]

Well, yes, I agree, but that was a “thing†when that song was originally written. There was the cultural idwa that women liked to be “persuaded†by an ardent pursuer who wouldn’t take no for an answer. Unfortunately, that sent a confusing signal about coy behavior vs. Straightforward No-Means-No.

 

That was why we had a cartoon in which a love-struck skunk repeatedly persued a terrified cat; it was seen as funny. But it’s clearly tone-deaf now.

OH man, I remember those skunk cartoons. They made me feel uncomfortable and so sorry for the cartoon character he was aggressively pursuing!

 

As far as the date rape winter song, the point where it's mentioned that something got dropped in the drink is, to me, where it crosses the line. A gal can't be playing coy if she's drugged.

[Lady Florida.]

Gotta say, tho, that I have no idea why this is considered a holiday song.  I guess just because it mentions snow???

 

There are a lot of songs that only seem to be holiday songs because they mention snow.

 

Jingle Bells (the writer never intended for it to be a Christmas song)

Let it Snow

Winter Wonderland

Sleigh Ride

 

There are probably more but those are off the top of my head without googling.

[nixpix5]

Wait...what? I don't think I have ever heard of this song....

 

"Santa Baby" comes to mind as one that needs to go. It is tacky.

[Word Nerd]

I always took the line, "Say, what's in this drink?" to refer to it being a strong drink, or a bubbly one, with the inference being it was going to her head and she was feeling giddy. I'm kind of shocked by the suggestion that it means she was drugged. I always thought it was a cutesy winter song, kind of flirty and sexy, as I'm sure it was intended when it was written. I can kind of see the point being made here, but I also kind of think everyone is overthinking this.

 

I agree. I don't like the song but have never had the impression the girl was drugged.

[Guest]

Of all the popular songs that might give kids the wrong idea about sex ....

Right?!? I can’t get worked up about this one.

[SKL]

 

As far as the date rape winter song, the point where it's mentioned that something got dropped in the drink is, to me, where it crosses the line. A gal can't be playing coy if she's drugged.

 

She said "what's in this drink" because she was swooning.  I think the implication is that she is swooning and wants to blame it on the drink, not that there is actually a drug in the drink.

 

[Guest]

The song is from a 1940-something movie called Neptune's Daughter. In it (if you watch it all the way through to the end) you see that she wants to stay but is worried about what people will think or say. Later in the song, a woman sings it to a man.

 

https://youtu.be/7MFJ7ie_yGU

I can’t watch the whole clip on acccount of terrible internet and constant buffering, but the part that I watched does rememind me of exactly the creepy crap that was common in that era. The idea that a man was supposed to dog her repeatedly and her facial expressions and body language, at least at first, are annoyance and being put off by him.

 

I would have been seriously bothered if any guy kept taking off my shrug and hat as I put them on, not to mention keep pulling me back to the couch and restraining me. I know that was a common interaction back then, but I really HATE it a lot.

[ErinE]

I can’t watch the whole clip on acccount of terrible internet and constant buffering, but the part that I watched does rememind me of exactly the creepy crap that was common in that era. The idea that a man was supposed to dog her repeatedly and her facial expressions and body language, at least at first, are annoyance and being put off by him.

 

I would have been seriously bothered if any guy kept taking off my shrug and hat as I put them on, not to mention keep pulling me back to the couch and restraining me. I know that was a common interaction back then, but I really HATE it a lot.

 

The second video is an echo of the first, with the roles reversed.

[HomeAgain]

There are a lot of songs that only seem to be holiday songs because they mention snow.

 

Jingle Bells (the writer never intended for it to be a Christmas song)

Let it Snow

Winter Wonderland

Sleigh Ride

 

There are probably more but those are off the top of my head without googling.

 

There's a Christmas song that mentions Christmas but wasn't intended to be a general holiday song.  Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas came from the movie Meet Me In St. Louis.  There was an entire verse of the song omitted because Judy Garland was horrified over having to sing it to Margaret O'Brien:

Have yourself a merry little Christmas,

It may be your last,

Next year we may all

Be living in the past

 

She said it was too morbid to sing to a 7yo. :lol:  In context, it would have been okay.  Taken out of the movie, it sounds like a death threat.

 

[Butter]

As far as the date rape winter song, the point where it's mentioned that something got dropped in the drink is, to me, where it crosses the line. A gal can't be playing coy if she's drugged.

 

Were there roofies in the 1940s?  A quick google tells me no.  She asks for half a drink more and then a couple lines later asks what he gave her.  Nothing nefarious needs to be listened into it.

[Hyacinth]

I like it. I think it's flirty and fun. I picture them both in that early exciting stage of a relationship. She's coy and wants to be pursued; he's attracted to her and wants her to know it. Kind of reminds me of a certain snowy night at the apartment of my then-boyfriend/now-husband. :)

 

That said, I understand how someone hearing it in light of the Cosby/Ailes/O'Reilly/Hannity/Weinstein/Moore/Spacey/Franken/Conyers/Rose/and all the other allegations might be skeeved out.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Hyacinth

[poppy]

It's all in the performance.  It can be done well- I love

version, with all the flirting and eye contact and smiles.  It can be done badly -

vocal performance is good, but, the video sidesteps the awkward of the lyrics, and is a fail IMO.

[LMD]

Alcohol IS a date rape drug. If I agree to half a glass of wine and you drop a vodka bomb in it - I didn't consent to that! Add in the power play, 'here sweet innocent girl that I have entrapped in my house, I know what's good for you, have a VERY STRONG drink, let's loosen up those inhibitions and retard your reactions/reflexes and make sure your memory is fuzzy!'

[Zebra]

I think the song one person is being a bit pushy, but it's also a context thing about it being inappropriate at the time to sleep over.  I also never thought for one minute he was drugging the drink.   I think she's trying to blame the alcohol.   It's a weird thing to sing about at Christmas, that's for sure.

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.   

[Pawz4me]

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.   

 

When oldest DS was around 10 or 11 he said Santa was a stalker because of the lyrics to Santa Clause Is Coming To Town. :lol:

 

Personally, I'm a believer in picking your battles. The song in question . . .  nah.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.   

 

I remember years ago reading an interview with Sting. He said he wrote "If You Love Somebody (set them free)" in part as atonement for "Every Breath You Take",

[Butter]

Alcohol IS a date rape drug. If I agree to half a glass of wine and you drop a vodka bomb in it - I didn't consent to that! Add in the power play, 'here sweet innocent girl that I have entrapped in my house, I know what's good for you, have a VERY STRONG drink, let's loosen up those inhibitions and retard your reactions/reflexes and make sure your memory is fuzzy!'

 

I think you are reading a whole lot into one line lol

[Zebra]

When oldest DS was around 10 or 11 he said Santa was a stalker because of the lyrics to Santa Clause Is Coming To Town.  :lol:

 

Personally, I'm a believer in picking your battles. The song in question . . .  nah.

 

Well, it is a stalker-y when you think about it.   He's watching you when you sleep, yikes!   Maybe Santa was the one who gave Sting the idea...

[alisoncooks]

The song that makes me break out into a cold sweat is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.   I like Sting, and I like The Police, but that song is about about being a stalker.  

 

I never thought anything about that song until I was watching Beyond Stranger Things recently, and the kids on the interview were calling that song The Stalker Song.  (Or something along those lines, LOL.)

[LMD]

I think you are reading a whole lot into one line lol

I know, date rape is hilarious right? /sarcasm

 

Look, I don't really care about this song and I agree that in terms of songs/entertainment there's bigger fish to fry. But this thread is to discuss this song, no? I can easily read it through a feminist analysis that makes it problematic.

 

I mainly wanted to respond to the idea that the only date rape drugs are roofies et al. Nope, alcohol is the #1 date rape drug.

[Butter]

I know, date rape is hilarious right? /sarcasm

 

And now you are reading into what I wrote.  Yup.  Date rape is SO hilarious.  I just crack up every time I remember the time I was date raped.  It was awesome.

 

I was just disagreeing with your assessment of what the song is saying.  Also something totally permitted in a thread discussing the song :)

[poppy]

I never once read it as him doping her?

She agrees to "half a drink more"

Later asks "hey what's in this drink", not shocked but playful

They continue to verbally flirt, she's not shown to be slurring or intoxicated

"My sister will be suspicious" "My maiden aunts mind is vicious" <--- those could be Hamilton lyrics , nice wit and rhyme

Then she agrees to half a cigarette more

 

This is a song about two clever and witty people flirting, with a give and take. 

[hornblower]

MY interpretation is that, yes, she wants to stay but is fretting over her reputation.

That said, I don't want my kids listening to it.

 

 

Of all the popular songs that might give kids the wrong idea about sex ....

 

|

the post above is exactly one of the reasons it gives the wrong idea - the idea that woman should fret about her reputation is really wrong. 

[hornblower]

There are a lot of songs that only seem to be holiday songs because they mention snow.

 

Jingle Bells (the writer never intended for it to be a Christmas song)

Let it Snow

Winter Wonderland

Sleigh Ride

 

There are probably more but those are off the top of my head without googling.

These are by definition holiday songs for many of us who celebrate a secular winter holiday.  

[blondeviolin]

|

the post above is exactly one of the reasons it gives the wrong idea - the idea that woman should fret about her reputation is really wrong.

Women (and men) SHOULD fret about reputation.

 

Does that mean she shouldn't stay? The woman had to weigh the pros and cons.

Edited November 22, 2017 by blondeviolin

[Guest]

Well, it is a stalker-y when you think about it. He's watching you when you sleep, yikes! Maybe Santa was the one who gave Sting the idea...

My son likes to sing this in a creepy Poltergeist voice, with staring eyes...â€HE SEES YOU WHEN YOU’RE SLEEPING...†😆

[scoutingmom]

Nm

Edited November 22, 2017 by scoutingmom

[SKL]

 

I would have been seriously bothered if any guy kept taking off my shrug and hat as I put them on, not to mention keep pulling me back to the couch and restraining me. I know that was a common interaction back then, but I really HATE it a lot.

 

It wasn't common back then.  It was in a movie.  Movies didn't depict real life (for regular people) then and they don't now.

 

Respect for women was a value - not everyone exhibited it - there were rapists and molesters then as there are now, but it was not acceptable behavior to demand sex/intimacy (for a man) any more than it was acceptable to give it up easily / casually (for a woman).

[Guest]

It wasn't common back then. It was in a movie. Movies didn't depict real life (for regular people) then and they don't now.

 

Respect for women was a value - not everyone exhibited it - there were rapists and molesters then as there are now, but it was not acceptable behavior to demand sex/intimacy (for a man) any more than it was acceptable to give it up easily / casually (for a woman).

The movies and songs of an era reflect the values of that era. Just as now, when I watch the original Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, the rejection of a “defective†child is shocking. The dad reindeer is ashamed and tries to hide Rudolph’s “deformity.†Santa himself dismisses Rudolph for being abnormal. Sure, it’s just an animated holiday film about magical characters. It’s not “reality.†But it reflects attitudes of the time. A movie with a narrative like that now would only happen if the dad reindeer and the Santa character were intentional villains.

 

I can remember even just my mother’s general attitude about what she thought was desirable in boys who wanted to date her daughters. It’s very foreign to me. She liked to think guys were tripping over themselves trying to get her daughters. She thought it was flattering if guys stared at me or if I “turned heads†when I was a teen. I remember one time, two guys were warring with each other because they both wanted my sister. My mom and my sister got a kick out of playing it. My sister had a photo of herself between the two guys, with an arm draped over each one’s shoulder and a wicked look on her face. My mother staged and took the photo.

 

It was all just a different attitude. I wasn’t into that; I have seen myself as a straight-shooter. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Even with other things, I don’t get coy refusals, like of a slice of cake. If you offer me a dessert and I want it, I’ll say yes. If not, I’ll say no thank you. But I’m not going to say “noâ€when what I mean is I want you to persist and convince me. Once in a while, DH thinks I’m doing that polite refusal thing and he starts saying, “oh come on...just a little slice.†I HATE that! 😑 If you badger me, I’m *really* going to say no!

[Guest]

Wait...what? I don't think I have ever heard of this song....

 

"Santa Baby" comes to mind as one that needs to go. It is tacky.

I think Santa Baby is echoed in the modern song Hell on Heels. That song is just yucky.

[Corraleno]

I can’t watch the whole clip on acccount of terrible internet and constant buffering, but the part that I watched does rememind me of exactly the creepy crap that was common in that era. The idea that a man was supposed to dog her repeatedly and her facial expressions and body language, at least at first, are annoyance and being put off by him.

 

I would have been seriously bothered if any guy kept taking off my shrug and hat as I put them on, not to mention keep pulling me back to the couch and restraining me. I know that was a common interaction back then, but I really HATE it a lot.

I watched the whole video and think it's creepy, not cute. I've been in situations where I wanted to leave and a guy would physically try to prevent me from going, while acting like this was all just a fun little cat and mouse game. Watching that guy repeatedly touch and restrain the woman and physically block her from leaving, just gave me the creeps. I felt the same about the second half, which had the bonus cringe factor of portraying a woman who wanted sex as obnoxious and scary (the guy looks scared not happy when she turns out the light), in contrast to the man in the first half, who is portrayed as suave and romantic and someone who knew "she really wanted it" despite the woman saying no. Blech.  :ack2:

[gardenmom5]

I admit i never listened that closely to the words, but what I heard seemed obnoxious in a huge eye roll sort of way.  and it was the obnoxious that made me want to smack him, not any perceived harassment.